What I don't like about this approach is that you can't abstract the process. You can't "search the room", you have to actually describe all the actions you're taking - not only taking up a whole bunch of game time, but also leaving open the possibility of the highly trained, perceptive professional with the scene in front of him missing something because the player forgot one bit he needed to move or open or something from the initial room description.
Consider this.
The only reason you need a move action to search the desk at all is because you don't otherwise have line of sight to it. Everything you have line of sight to is covered by non-action reactive Perception checks.
And your point is?
You are searching the room, you're not just looking at it. Searching implies looking inside of things, moving around to look behind things, etc. The non-action perception check lets you see a desk at the far end of a hallway, it doesn't let you see inside of it.
You're still spending a move action to get into the square you are searching, and spending a move action to search it. Its still 1 round per square. At most you could say its 1 round for the first check, and then 2 checks per round after that, assuming you don't leave that square.
CommandoDude
(GM in question here)
I never said you “can’t break down a search that way”, what I said was “I don’t want to break down a search that way” and specifically what I said was “I don’t want to get that granular” For the encounter in question after combat (and I am sure I forgetting some actions as there was quite a bit of discussion as well):
1) You moved over to each opponent and searched them visually
2) Someone moved over to the opponent and searched them with detect magic
3) The bodies were looted
4) You visually searched the room.
5) Something was strange near the altar
6) It appears there are scratches on the floor
7) The altar can be slid away
8) The altar is pushed to the side with strength revealing a hidden compartment
9) Check for Traps
10) There are none, so you open it open it!
11) Inside there is a scroll tube and a bunch of papers.
12) Reading through the papers you see that they are religious texts
13) Each of the texts is examined (on the spine examined for subject matter) they are also leafed through.
14) They are richly illustrated so someone is called over to do an appraise on them.
15) They come over and do the appraise
16) The scroll tube is examined with detect magic.
17) It is also examined for traps
18) It is opened
19) The magic scroll is read to determine what it is.
20) Everything is stowed in packs and the party makes ready to move on.
Now some of those actions are longer than a standard action. My contention is that quite a few minutes were (approximately) spent to accomplish the above. And it is WAY longer than the 3-4 standard actions that you are suggesting.
IF there aren't things in the room to look behind or in, is there an advantage to searching square by square, rather than just looking around, in your method?
Are there things, like traps or hidden doors, that I will only find with the search option?
Or does it only cover things that actually need moving, one way or other?
I would point to the Dwarf's Stonecunning ability.
Lets them get a free check to find secret doors if they are within 10 feet of them.
Seems like a waste of an ability if everybody in the game can glance into a room as a move action and see every secret door in said room, doesn't it?
Searching for traps and secret doors still involves you doing things like knocking on walls for hollow spots, that sort of thing. Dwarves are just so good at spotting that sort of thing that when it comes to stonework, they don't have to go knocking on the wall to notice something isn't right, as long as they're close enough to get a good look at it.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check.
5ft Step, Perception check....
Ain't we having fun?
I've actually had to play under rules like:
5ft step, Perception check to check the square directly in front of me, Perception check to check the square in front to my left.
Perception check to check the square in front to my right, Perception check to check the ceiling above me.
5 ft step., etc....
Oh, and make sure you roll each of those, too, because we will make you fail miserably (even use the fumble table) on a 1. (And gods help you if forget to say "I look up" when you're searching a room. There could be a gargantuan dragon hanging from the ceiling, but you will never have a chance to see it if you forget the magic words.)
Regarding the old 3E "full round to search a 5x5 area" rule: it always struck me as odd that it takes the same amount of time to search an empty, flat area of ground as it does to search a jam-packed closet.
CommandoDude
(GM in question here)
I never said you “can’t break down a search that way”, what I said was “I don’t want to break down a search that way” and specifically what I said was “I don’t want to get that granular” For the encounter in question after combat (and I am sure I forgetting some actions as there was quite a bit of discussion as well):1) You moved over to each opponent and searched them visually
2) Someone moved over to the opponent and searched them with detect magic
3) The bodies were looted
4) You visually searched the room.
5) Something was strange near the altar
6) It appears there are scratches on the floor
7) The altar can be slid away
8) The altar is pushed to the side with strength revealing a hidden compartment
9) Check for Traps
10) There are none, so you open it open it!
11) Inside there is a scroll tube and a bunch of papers.
12) Reading through the papers you see that they are religious texts
13) Each of the texts is examined (on the spine examined for subject matter) they are also leafed through.
14) They are richly illustrated so someone is called over to do an appraise on them.
15) They come over and do the appraise
16) The scroll tube is examined with detect magic.
17) It is also examined for traps
18) It is opened
19) The magic scroll is read to determine what it is.
20) Everything is stowed in packs and the party makes ready to move on.Now some of those actions are longer than a standard action. My contention is that quite a few minutes were (approximately) spent to accomplish the above. And it is WAY longer than the 3-4 standard actions that you are suggesting.
Here let me help you:
1&2 - Move + Move action and move + standard. This takes 2 peoples 1 round action. So we are still in round one.
3. This will take another 1 round action per person per body. If you have group of 4, two people can do this in round 1, meaning you can clear 6 bodies plus 1&2 above in 2 rounds.
4. This is reactive perception check and is free. Still 2 rounds.
5. Also free.
6. Also free.
7. Free to know this.
8. Move + Standard for 1 person. So now we start round 3.
9. Another person can move + move to do this. Still round 3.
10. Opening it is part of 8 above. No additional action cost here.
11. Move + Move for another person to retrieve. Still round 3.
12. Move + Move + Free action to do a knowledge check on the books. Still Round 3. (All 4 party members action used).
13. Free. No idea what leafing through would be, but lets say move + free to make a knowledge check. Round 4 start.
14. Free action to call party member over.
15. The party members are all there. Appraiser uses standard action to appraise. Still round 4. Party member can still move.
16. Person from before should still be concentrating on Detect Magic and is present, so already covered.
17. Move + Move Action. Some people still have actions, but end round 4.
18&19. Move action + Unknown action. I'd go with free as "identifying a spell".
20. The rest of the parties move action and standard actions since they are already there.
Rounds 4. 5 tops.
1) You moved over to each opponent and searched them visually
2) Someone moved over to the opponent and searched them with detect magic
3) The bodies were looted
A few standard actions to pick off items, and we do have 6 people all doing this so I imagine it goes by pretty quick. There were only 2 enemies with not much on them. In 1 round we can search for and pick up 6 items!
4) You visually searched the room.
5) Something was strange near the altar
6) It appears there are scratches on the floor
7) The altar can be slid away
These aren't actions, just observations you'd get from a general perception check at the beginning of the search.
8) The altar is pushed to the side with strength revealing a hidden compartment
9) Check for Traps
Standard then a move.
10) There are none, so you open it open it!
11) Inside there is a scroll tube and a bunch of papers.
Another standard. So far not even half a minute has passed.
12) Reading through the papers you see that they are religious texts
13) Each of the texts is examined (on the spine examined for subject matter) they are also leafed through.
This is where things get murky, how much time does this ACTUALLY take? I lead through my textbook a lot and it doesn't take long. I wasn't even personally aware of just how much time some other party members were actually taking with these religious texts and if they'd taken more than half a minute (which is what I marked down for that) I would've said "A'rite ders a couple 'o dragons in the next room ye can read yer books later!"
14) They are richly illustrated so someone is called over to do an appraise on them.
15) They come over and do the appraise.
As I recall that person was actually there, so this is just a standard action appraise.
16) The scroll tube is examined with detect magic.
No action, detect magic was already cast.
17) It is also examined for traps
18) It is opened
standard and a move. (keep in mind, many of these skill checks or actions are being done by separate party members, so are occurring simultaneously - ie check for traps from the monk and a spellcraft check from the witch)
19) The magic scroll is read to determine what it is.
20) Everything is stowed in packs and the party makes ready to move on.
another standard and a move. Essentially, everything was done in a minute as far as I can tell, maybe a minute and a half by my estimation. By the time it took us to reach the second combat encounter, 2 or so minutes had passed. I'm not saying that it took 4-5 standard actions to do all that, but way less than "quite a few minutes" and leagues less than one party member's suggestion of taking "half a day" to walk around the entire cave system later on after those 2 combats.
Fair enough. I think that's an artifact of how you're dividing things up though, not an argument for making search only work on a 5' square at a time.
As I read the rules, Stonecunning lets dwarves get a reactive check against stonework, which others don't get. Trapspotting works similarly for traps. Others can use a move action to get the same check, but not limited to the 5' square they're in, though there may be penalties for distance or other things.IOW, the ability is still useful. Dwarves can be walking down a corridor, not using every other action to get a perception check, and still notice the secret door. Even more importantly, Trapspotters can do the same.
I would disagree.
I can't think of a time where PCs ever double moved every single round while walking through a dungeon. They generally just moved their normal speed, which means only taking one move action per round, meaning they could easily spend their second move action on glancing down the hall and see secret doors without sacrificing anything. In fact, I would rather say that is the default mode of travel in a dungeon, you are constantly on the watch for something to jump out at you, so you are constantly making Perception checks while moving.
A close range reactive check is pretty useless when every character can make nonstop checks from a distance. If your angle is correct, then Stonecunning is nothing more than cancelling out the first range increment penalty to Perception for a VERY limited subset of the skill.
I think you would need to concentrate on detect magic 3 rounds for each body to determine what was magic. If there was none, it would only be a round each - or even a round total, if positioned properly.
3 Rounds would get the caster everything in a 60 ft. cone. Which would be everything on the bodies that isn't in a backpack. Keep in mind they still have move actions while doing this.
I think you would need to concentrate on detect magic 3 rounds for each body to determine what was magic. If there was none, it would only be a round each - or even a round total, if positioned properly.
Detect magic is a pretty big cone, and we basically use it to check if something magic is around. So the first round basically tells us "Yes magic is here" and then we know to search.
I think you would need to concentrate on detect magic 3 rounds for each body to determine what was magic. If there was none, it would only be a round each - or even a round total, if positioned properly.Detect magic is a pretty big cone, and we basically use it to check if something magic is around. So the first round basically tells us "Yes magic is here" and then we know to search.Well, make sure every in the party is out of the way. But yeah, one round if there isn't anything. 3 rounds to narrow down what is.
Not clear to me if you'd have to strip them and dump out pockets and packs to check. If detect Magic is line of sight, then even something worn under shirt or glove or in a pocket wouldn't react.
All detect spells specify how much material blocks the spell, so unless they have lead lined pockets the spell goes right through them.
3 Rounds would get the caster everything in a 60 ft. cone. Which would be everything on the bodies that isn't in a backpack. Keep in mind they still have move actions while doing this.
Assuming the room is that big, you are outside and can safely move far enough away, or that you stop to drag all the bodies into one small space.
The solution which worked pretty well in practice, though it was (as expected) a bit tedious for the DM, was to go into rounds as soon as a buff was cast. Once we worked out the party speed (trying to be stealthy) everything worked pretty well. I think I will just run a spreadsheet in the background to track time.
Anzyr I am going to have to strongly disagree with you. Also, can you point me at the rules for reactive perception (I am assuming you mean 4e style passive?) checks, I have never been able to find them? If the DM describes strange piles of sand near the altar, you don’t reactively know that there are also scatches in the floor. Knowledge checks are usually free (ie) “That is an altar to Lamashtu” and when you find the scratches, “those scratches are made by something heavy, not the creatures you just fought”, but standing next to the altar does not automatically give you the info that the Altar is made to be pushed along the wall (you need to spend time examining it to get that). Also I call shenanigans on the body looting as well. It is 3 rounds of concentration just to get the locations of magic items while using detect magic. Also (and I forgot to list) that the items were ID’ed with spell craft, which takes another 3 rounds PER item (so actually even longer!). And that is not even getting into the speed at which you are removing clothes, armor, boots, emptying pockets and pouches and then Re-stowing the taken items in your own gear. All this takes time…and way more than the 2 rounds you are suggesting (even without the spellcraft checks).
For my own DM style, I really dislike “speed D&D”, I know that some people like to feel like they are rushing the game (like in a computer game or solo game) and the speed is part of the excitement for them. I much prefer a slow game that builds atmosphere and has room to add narrative and group interaction instead of sprinting murderhobos that savage bodies and libraries before running to the next encounter before their buffs die out. I play cRPGs so I am familiar with the concept (so I enjoy it when soloing as well). But this is a group. Groups wander. The rogue is on lookout when you need him for traps. The wizard is reading books when you need him to detect magic. From my experience groups rarely act quickly in tight concert.
I stand by my ruling that the church took minutes to explore. There is simply no way (even with standards and moves) that the place was adequately examined, bodies were looted, items examined, secrets were found, magic was examined, puzzles were solved, books were read through for content then appraised for value. New items were stowed in packs. No way all that in 24-27 seconds. But to each their own.
CommandoDude, no problem though, we will count rounds from now on, when buffs are up. FYI with counting rounds last night, It was remarked that things took longer than expected. Yep.
That also has a lot to do with if you're the kind of DM where everything sits patiently in it's room waiting for the PCs to show up, or if you're the kind of DM where things move around.
Personally, I'm a fan of "We take 20 searching the room", "Okay, about half way through your search, a patrol comes by."
Anyone stopping to completely and thoroughly search a room before the dungeon is cleared is just ASKING for trouble, IMO.
The solution which worked pretty well in practice, though it was (as expected) a bit tedious for the DM, was to go into rounds as soon as a buff was cast. Once we worked out the party speed (trying to be stealthy) everything worked pretty well. I think I will just run a spreadsheet in the background to track time.
Anzyr I am going to have to strongly disagree with you. Also, can you point me at the rules for reactive perception (I am assuming you mean 4e style passive?) checks, I have never been able to find them? If the DM describes strange piles of sand near the altar, you don’t reactively know that there are also scatches in the floor. Knowledge checks are usually free (ie) “That is an altar to Lamashtu” and when you find the scratches, “those scratches are made by something heavy, not the creatures you just fought”, but standing next to the altar does not automatically give you the info that the Altar is made to be pushed along the wall (you need to spend time examining it to get that). Also I call shenanigans on the body looting as well. It is 3 rounds of concentration just to get the locations of magic items while using detect magic.
Action
Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
It's right there in the skill. All perception checks are reactive, unless you are intentionally searching for stimulus, which is a move action.
It is 3 rounds of concentration to get all the locations of all the magic items, but with 4 people it shouldn't take long to store all the stuff. My breakdown includes the time for Detect Magic and storing loot assuming 6 bodies and 4 party members. I would recommend against IDing items while buff clocks are running. Even assuming there are a lot of stuff to loot, at most it would extend the time to 7-8 rounds, a minute at absolute most. You are free to run it however you want, but RAW it does not take more time then that to search and you should let your buff using players know in advance as making searching take longer then the rules say it does is a huge disadvantage.
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The problem the OP is running into is that the other players/PCs are not respecting divine buffs. The OP is a cleric, for whom minute-per-round buff spells are very important. I've had this problem before.
This issue is as simple as breaking bad habits. Players are just acting out of habit. They don't actually care whether they search now or later. They are just being methodical. Players get in the habit of FIGHT/SEARCH then FIGHT/SEARCH then FIGHT/SEARCH. You want to change this habit to FIGHT/FIGHT/FIGHT/SEARCH/SEARCH/SEARCH.
There are two ways I handle it:
1. Just accept that they are going to stop and search, and any buffs are history. This is pretty common, and sometimes the reasonable thing to do.
2. Loudly and clearly say, "No!!! You will not waste the blessings of my god by stopping to search for loot right now!! The loot will still be there in a few minutes, but the powerful blessings gifted by my god will not be. Do not disrespect my god! We will CONTINUE RIGHT NOW, then come back later to search."
Do this in an assertive way that brooks no disagreement. It should be fine so long as your Cleric doesn't do this sort of thing very often. I've gone as far as dousing allies with Create Water to get their attention, when they didn't stop searching. Never had to do that twice.
Note that this has nothing to do with searching for traps. This is to stop allies wasting crucial buff time searching for loot when they can just come back and search anyway, a few minutes later.
That also has a lot to do with if you're the kind of DM where everything sits patiently in it's room waiting for the PCs to show up, or if you're the kind of DM where things move around.
Personally, I'm a fan of "We take 20 searching the room", "Okay, about half way through your search, a patrol comes by."
Anyone stopping to completely and thoroughly search a room before the dungeon is cleared is just ASKING for trouble, IMO.
OTOH, not carefully searching for traps everywhere is also asking for trouble.
And not searching for things like clues and keys and McGuffins that would have helped in the rest of the dungeon is also asking for trouble.
Adjust your GM style and your time management to the way you want to play and the way your players want to play. And make sure your players are on the same page.
Take 20 on everything is a bit much for my taste. Leaving everything but a casual glance until you've cleared the dungeon is also a bit much. That approach also assumes the dungeon can be cleared in one pass.
It does mean the GM should make sure that things that need to be found can be found with the amount of searching he wants to encourage. Loot can wait, but don't attack the party if they search thoroughly, then tell them they TPK'd because they missed the hidden McGuffin because they didn't search enough.
Your resident trapfinder or any high WIS person with Perception as a class skill and ranks in it should be able to beat the DC of all CR appropriate traps merely by taking 10 every 30 ft. of move.
Magda, you have the right of it!
1. Just accept that they are going to stop and search, and any buffs are history. This is pretty common, and sometimes the reasonable thing to do.
2. Loudly and clearly say, "No!!! You will not waste the blessings of my god by stopping to search for loot right now!! The loot will still be there in a few minutes, but the powerful blessings gifted by my god will not be. Do not disrespect my god! We will CONTINUE RIGHT NOW, then come back later to search."
Do this in an assertive way that brooks no disagreement. It should be fine so long as your Cleric doesn't do this sort of thing very often.
I would jump for joy if either of these scenarios played out. The problem stems from 4 players wanting to take their time and quietly stealth and examine things. And 1 cleric who EVERY TIME insists that his character must have about 6-8 buffs up to be effective. The problem arises when the party (and DM) say that minutes have been spent investigating a location and 1 cleric insists that it has been seconds.
So, now we count rounds as they occur. Hopefully problem solved.
Anzyr, I see what you mean now about perception. I thought you meant "reactive" perception as a keyword. And the actions you called out would have been move actions (not free - they were looking for stimulus) so they would have taken time, and not all of them were doing it. Also takes 10 rounds for a person to just remove 1 suit of chain mail. If they have help they can get it down to 5 rounds (during which time they both can't be reading, checking for traps, detecting magic etc..). I still think 7-8 rounds is crazy fast....but that is just me.
Assuming your GM isn't requiring you to search every square, as some here have done, you're probably right. I'm not sure it's quite that guaranteed, but YMMV.Your resident trapfinder or any high WIS person with Perception as a class skill and ranks in it should be able to beat the DC of all CR appropriate traps merely by taking 10 every 30 ft. of move.That also has a lot to do with if you're the kind of DM where everything sits patiently in it's room waiting for the PCs to show up, or if you're the kind of DM where things move around.
Personally, I'm a fan of "We take 20 searching the room", "Okay, about half way through your search, a patrol comes by."
Anyone stopping to completely and thoroughly search a room before the dungeon is cleared is just ASKING for trouble, IMO.
OTOH, not carefully searching for traps everywhere is also asking for trouble.
And not searching for things like clues and keys and McGuffins that would have helped in the rest of the dungeon is also asking for trouble.
Adjust your GM style and your time management to the way you want to play and the way your players want to play. And make sure your players are on the same page.
Take 20 on everything is a bit much for my taste. Leaving everything but a casual glance until you've cleared the dungeon is also a bit much. That approach also assumes the dungeon can be cleared in one pass.
It does mean the GM should make sure that things that need to be found can be found with the amount of searching he wants to encourage. Loot can wait, but don't attack the party if they search thoroughly, then tell them they TPK'd because they missed the hidden McGuffin because they didn't search enough.
A +27 is the maximum required. Take 10 37, max Trap DC is 34, minus 3 for distance.
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One typically searches for traps before a fight. Searching after a fight is typically looting. Stealth and caution before a fight are what get those buffs active in the first place. Searching for loot after the fight, when buffs are burning and more fights wait nearby, is stupid and darn near inexcusable. It's totally possible, and considerate of the team's best chance of success, for the stealthy types to be efficient about their use of time while short-term buffs are burning.
I once had great success playing through Bone Keep (a notoriously grueling and difficult dungeon) with a buffer-style cleric. Had my PC not exhorted allies to press on, and save the looting for later, some PCs would likely have died. As it was, it was a close thing. The Cleric had cast Bull's Strength on both primary martial characters, along with Weapon of Awe, Aid, and several other nice minute-per-level buffs. The Barbarian alone was pulling an extra +4 to hit and +5 on damage from minute-per-level buffs. We were just able to complete the last three fights fully buffed. The buffs dropped just as the last foe in the dungeon went down ...
Assuming your GM isn't requiring you to search every square, as some here have done, you're probably right. I'm not sure it's quite that guaranteed, but YMMV.A +27 is the maximum required. Take 10 37, max Trap DC is 34, minus 3 for distance.Does that scale throughout? It doesn't look as if it does.
They start at DC20, which you won't make with Take 10 at first level without more investment (Assume Perception = 3+level+stat mod+Take 10) 18 at 1st level. Among the sample traps in the CRB, there's CR 2 DC 26, CR3 DC27, CR5 DC28, CR6 DC 30, CR7 DC31, and CR10 DC34.
You're not going to make any of those with Take 10 without some serious boosts to Perception. Not at the equivalent levels. Especially with a -3 for distance.
Didn't mean to imply the same logic held true at every level, but at 1st some classes can manage it for the usual DC 20 trap (though some hit 25 even at 1st). Granted, this is unlikely.
However, by 5th-7th level it becomes possible (say a Monk with 16 Wis and Eyes of the Eagle, +18, hits that DC 28 for a CR 5 easy enough) and by 10th a dedicated Perception-er can hit the 31-34 range with some effort (10 ranks, 14 Wis, Skill Focus, Eyes of the Eagle, and a buff like Acute Senses or Heroism takes that to 26-28).
Humans and Half-Elves can get the Skill Focus requirement fairly easily (Focused Study is one of my favorite alternate racial traits for any race).
On the topic of... this topic, I want to know if I've been doing things roughly right in my campaigns:
1) Party enters a room. I quietly roll perception checks for the party to see if they spot any extra details.
2) I now read or paraphrase the room description that I've written. If they spotted something, I note that when appropriate.
This is where I get concerned that I'm doing things wrong:
3) Normally, I let them investigate different objects of note one-by-one. I also let them search for objects of note actively in case they missed anything. This means that if I have a room description that includes tapestries dangling from the wall (with one of them covering a secret knob in the wall you twist to open a secret door) and a table with stuff on it, I let them investigate the table as a standard action, the tapestries as a standard action, and I let them take 10 or 20 on a search check around the room.
One of my players, however, has been requesting that I make this quicker; he wants to be able to search the whole room with a take 20 check and not individually inspect those items of note. I.E. he wants the benefits of having inspected all those items individually by taking a 20 on search. Is that something I should be allowing or no according to the rules?
Note: if a given item isn't hiding anything important, my policy thus far has been to let him look at all those items; but in the case of the tapestry it's hiding a secret knob so I'm leaning toward "he doesn't find that."
My party has been having disagreements over the preceding question. It's important because I'm a cleric who relies on combat buffs to keep me in the fight and when I throw a lot of spells on me, its because I'm expecting multiple successive fights in a row.
Generally speaking I'm talking about spells lasting several minutes, but not a minute or less.
My take is that for a combat encounter, it should take as much time to search a room as the combat took, maybe twice as long (assuming it isn't against a solo monster or end of campaign treasure hoard to sort through). So essentially, anywhere between half a minute to a minute depending on the number of enemies.
Some people in my party seem to think searching a room takes anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes! I feel that's ridiculous, since it's only a standard action to retrieve any one item, a few standard actions and you've picked up everything you can find with 1 perception check (which is not a take 20 situation).
It takes one round per 10 ft cube using sift. As a 0-level spell, it can be cast as often as you want.
Real life to deny EX characters cool things (which is always a bad idea) is different from "How long does this take?"/"Rules don't say, it would take X in real life, and the PCs do this for a living, so lets take off Y"/"OK"@CommandoDude:
Go into your bedroom. Start a stopwatch. Then, open every drawer, making sure to riffle through the contents; check any closets including stuff hanging on the racks or in shelves; check under your bed and between the mattress/boxspring; go through the bookshelves; look through any other container that you have. Lastly, stop the watch.
There's your answer. Adjust upward or downward depending on how big/small and furnished/unfurnished the in-game room happens to be.
Go grab a stick. Start a timer to count down from 6 seconds. Swing the stick as many times as you can before the countdown stops.
See where I'm going with this?
No, it really isn't.
In both cases you are applying real world logic to a scenario where it's not relevant.
Assuming your GM isn't requiring you to search every square, as some here have done, you're probably right. I'm not sure it's quite that guaranteed, but YMMV.A +27 is the maximum required. Take 10 37, max Trap DC is 34, minus 3 for distance.Does that scale throughout? It doesn't look as if it does.
They start at DC20, which you won't make with Take 10 at first level without more investment (Assume Perception = 3+level+stat mod+Take 10) 18 at 1st level. Among the sample traps in the CRB, there's CR 2 DC 26, CR3 DC27, CR5 DC28, CR6 DC 30, CR7 DC31, and CR10 DC34.
You're not going to make any of those with Take 10 without some serious boosts to Perception. Not at the equivalent levels. Especially with a -3 for distance.
Didn't mean to imply the same logic held true at every level, but at 1st some classes can manage it for the usual DC 20 trap (though some hit 25 even at 1st). Granted, this is unlikely.
However, by 5th-7th level it becomes possible (say a Monk with 16 Wis and Eyes of the Eagle, +18, hits that DC 28 for a CR 5 easy enough) and by 10th a dedicated Perception-er can hit the 31-34 range with some effort (10 ranks, 14 Wis, Skill Focus, Eyes of the Eagle, and a buff like Acute Senses or Heroism takes that to 26-28).
Humans and Half-Elves can get the Skill Focus requirement fairly easily (Focused Study is one of my favorite alternate racial traits for any race).
Ya, pretty much this. +1
Anzyr, I see what you mean now about perception. I thought you meant "reactive" perception as a keyword. And the actions you called out would have been move actions (not free - they were looking for stimulus) so they would have taken time, and not all of them were doing it. Also takes 10 rounds for a person to just remove 1 suit of chain mail. If they have help they can get it down to 5 rounds (during which time they both can't be reading, checking for traps, detecting magic etc..). I still think 7-8 rounds is crazy fast....but that is just me.
None of the actions I called out as free require searching for a stimulus. The scratches are out in the open, you either make the reactive perception to notice them or you don't. And yes, it would take 5/10 rounds to remove chainmail, but the only way that would happen is if the chainmail is magical. If the chainmail isn't magical you can always swing by to pick it *after* you've stopped Tharkhar the Cruel.
I ask my players for perception checks if they are not searching and there is something possibly hidden - but I also ask for other reasons often enough that it's not a 'omg something hidden' clue.
Outside of that I say 'are you taking 20 on this room?' and if they do they find the stuff. I take 2 minutes (or longer on a really big area - in which case I let them know how long taking 20 would take before I figure the time) and figure time spent.
We do pre-rolls for perception for stuff like trapspotting - and if they are actively searching and in a hurry (no take 20) then I let them roll as often as they really want to and try to keep time - every 10 rolls is a minute.
Anything more just gets to be too much book keeping - and slows down the game - which can already get bogged down due to thousands of other reasons that searching a room is not on my list of things to worry about.
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This is one of those things that will never be a hard set time. The GM will need to decide how long it takes based on the composition of the room. Empty, save for some scattered dead bodies? Round or so; 15x15 room filled to the ceiling with wooden crates? quite a bit more time. There are situational things in the game that take some creativity from the GM. Not all rooms are created equal.
People seem to be getting confused Re: The room full of boxes and Perception.
The room full of boxes takes longer to search, yes, but not because Perception takes longer than a non-action or a Move...it's because opening each box to look inside takes a Move action, whereupon you get your Move to search (or reactive check if what's inside the box is obviously visible).
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Rifling through a desk is a move action. As per Perception.Sure, its a move action to get to the desk, and its a move action to search it. Thats 1 round.
Now either we say thats good enough for a single square, or we have to start specifying "Is that a move action for the desk? Is it another move action to search the floor under the desk? Is it a third move action to inspect an individual drawer?"
Lot easier to stick with it being the 5'x5' area it was in 3e, and it taking one round to search it. You can make your one roll, pray you don't get a 1, then move to the next square and search it in another round.
Or you can Take 10, and spend 10 rounds searching it as per standard Take 10 rules. Or you can be extremely thorough and Take 20, which takes 20 rounds as per normal rules.
When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help.
Please note: This does not say anything about taking any extra time, just substituting a 10 for a random number from 1 to 20.
When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).
Note only takes 20 times the normal time.
Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.
A Perception check, as an active check, takes a Move action, so 20 times as long would be 20 Move actions, which would only take 10 rounds, as you can perform 2 Move actions (by substituting a Move for a Standard) per round.
Please note: This does not say anything about taking any extra time, just substituting a 10 for a random number from 1 to 20.
Damn, one more little change PF made that I never noticed, thank you.
I'd be the GM who would be a complete jerk about it, and have hidden magic items in the rooms that my later baddies could swoop in and scoop up en route to taking out the party that left them all just "lying around."