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This chase adaptation is still a pretty experimental technique, and I'm trying to get a sense of what the right numbers are. Did you find that the DCs are a bit too easy?Oh, don't get me wrong, it was a rare occasion that the players thought the chase was the best part of the scenario. (I personally usually like them a lot anyway, but for a whole table to like it is rare). My results may be slightly skewed because I had a very high dex party that also had a lot of survival (...lots of slayers) which most chase scenes could be defeated by that. I know that dex plays a critical role in a case, but I felt there was joy enough variety for other skills. The wizard felt not so useful during the chase. Although, I'm not sure how you can reasonably vary it up too much based on the nature of the chase.
And yes, I think the DCs were a little low, but not extremely so (maybe 2-4 too low). I also feel the scale down for 4 should be more substantial like 3-4 lower as having less rolls to be high is a huge disadvantage.
Only one slayer. But add in an inquisitor (of Irori) whose animal companion is as smart as some Nagaji Paladins and a lot of classes that get a lot of skill points... I think we were just one of those groups whose skills happened to match the chase requirements. And we tended to all be good in the same skills so instead of half the party trying one check and half the other most of the checks were "we'll all take Option B" which resulted in a lot of rolls to take the highest from. Not going to show my math but multiple rolls (take the highest) is VERY powerful.
I think perhaps some mechanic to encourage splitting up the rolls would have made it more challenging.
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After playing at Atteisti's table(and having had loadsafun) I'm adopting the new chase mechanic for my homebrew campaign.
(an off-topic aside follows)
It's been a bit arduous to concoct chases where everyone can contribute for the mid-levels. Either the dc's are so high that only one(usually a caster with magical movement abilities)) character can reasonably pass them or you have to really cherry pick the skill checks involved so that everyone gets a bone once in a while. I even started to use what I called "gates" insted of just skills or ability checks: Get a static bonus or score high enough and you pass without a check e.g an "AC 27" gate means you could pass the hunting behir by fighting defensively and using Com. Expertise together or casting shield as long as the action results in high enough AC. Tanky Cleric is suddenly back in the game.
Anyhow, what a great scenario! Do moar. And moar chases too.
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The recent chase scenes in this one and the merchants wake have been a lot more popular because
-They're a group effort, the entire party moves together rather than playing an individual board game
-A lot more "roll the die now figure out what you're doing later" since you don't have to figure out who's rolling what in advance to avoid gaming the sysem.
-You're participating from start to finish. I remember in rise of the goblin guild I missed the first two rolls... and it was pretty clear I'd never get back in it, so i went for coffee.
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-You're participating from start to finish. I remember in rise of the goblin guild I missed the first two rolls... and it was pretty clear I'd never get back in it, so i went for coffee.
This is the one I have seen in the past. If you are built for the chase, you can do it. Mostly it just takes a character with skills. My paladins and fighter just get to try repeatedly to find a way over a wall or through a gate.
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-You're participating from start to finish. I remember in rise of the goblin guild I missed the first two rolls... and it was pretty clear I'd never get back in it, so i went for coffee.This is the one I have seen in the past. If you are built for the chase, you can do it. Mostly it just takes a character with skills. My paladins and fighter just get to try repeatedly to find a way over a wall or through a gate.
The character was an inquisitor and WAS built to do a large number of tasks. But the dc 20ish skill checks meant that rounds 1, 2, 1nd 3 rolls of.. well, 1 2 and 3 on the die meant that I was't going to get anywhere before the chase scene ended one way or the other.
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I liked the new chase mechanics too, it went a lot smoother than usually. A regular chase scene takes too much time to go over the options and actions. The DC's were a bit too low though, I think my party of four failed just one of them on tier 1-2 with one smelly and clumsy oracle in tow.
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When I played it the GM running it did not reveal them. I'm trying to decide if it added to or subtracted from the experience. On the one hand there's more suspense not knowing them. On the other, I think its good for PCs to have at least a general idea of the difficulty of a particular task.
Thoughts?
Do you tell players the AC of a critter? The Save DC of a breath weapon? Me neither so I leave chase DCs out. I feel this is especially important with the shirt reroll of PFS. Hmmm... I have a folio, how big is that river?
I don't even tell the players what checks are needed.* To create a sense of urgency I hold a hand up as I read the description and start counting down on my fingers when I finish reading. I can see the players listening to the description, visualizing it and interpreting it to what they know. They usually respond something like "swinging on the vines would be an acrobatics check? My pali can't do that..." At which point I add "or you can swim."
*one player corrected me saying "usually the skills are known to the players" I just shrugged and moved on. Interestingly enough, he was more involved in the rest of the chase.
FWIW that chase was the one thing I heard them talking about after the game :)
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The recent chase scenes in this one and the merchants wake have been a lot more popular because
-They're a group effort, the entire party moves together rather than playing an individual board game
-A lot more "roll the die now figure out what you're doing later" since you don't have to figure out who's rolling what in advance to avoid gaming the sysem.
-You're participating from start to finish. I remember in rise of the goblin guild I missed the first two rolls... and it was pretty clear I'd never get back in it, so i went for coffee.
I think BNW Nat20 it. We had three 4th levels and a firstie so played the upper tier. Fortunately the firstie was the only one with ranks in Survival so he got to contribute for more than one chase card. And he got to aid more often than others just because he was lucky on the dice.
As far as the DCs John, my experience will not translate well. They only missed one in the upper tier. It is hard to say if that one was a lot of unlucky rolls or a lack of the necessary skill. IIRC it was one of options affected by the oil. Without the oil, they probably would have made it. Everything else, even those affected by the oil, was solidly passed though (three characters made the DC).
I will say the mechanic that worked was the number of passed obstacles directly affecting the next encounter. I had a big T-Rex on the board and got to show it eating someone. "A terrible scream cuts short with the snapping of bones as she gobbles up ... an Aspis agent!" Had they failed that check in the traditional chase, a PC would have been eaten as described. Instead I later said: "Not even winded the party arrives back at the village." I'm not sure how the last fight would have gone had they failed enough to arrive exhausted. It went on with their inability to climb up fast enough.
Maybe the DC to aid could be higher (halfway between the actual DC & 10)? Maybe the number of aids is capped?
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I just played it this afternoon, and my GM did it like this:
* Take a moment to introduce the idea of Chase mechanics to players not used to them, then:
- Describe the challenge
- Name the two options, and which check to make (but not the DC)
- Give the players 10 seconds to agree which check to make
- Checks are made
We didn't know the DCs, and looking at the scenario afterwards, they were pretty easy to make. But we didn't know that at the time; we'd kinda flubbed the first roll but got 27+ on subsequent rolls. But every one of them was exciting, because we got little time to decide which approach was best for most of the group.
I do think the scaling could be done differently, depending on group size. We had my roc AC helping out as well and that meant 7 checks per round. That's quite different from 5 players with no ACs.
I've talked about this before in the Library of the Lion thread; I think this is one of those cases where perhaps we need more refined scaling than a simple choice between 4-player adjustment or not.
That said, I quite enjoyed it. I also liked that expending a spell (or feather token) in an appropriate way could also be done as an Aid auto-hit. That added flexibility takes away a lot of frustration with the Chase rules.
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I ran it this afternoon (low tier) and enjoyed it immensely. The chase scene was a definite success, as Ascalaphus attests.
I introduced the scene with a generic Tyranosaurus roar from Youtube (just search for Tyranosaurus Rex roar on Youtube and play it on your smartphone), with Aspis agents running for their lives, before reading out the cut-scene text, which caused some of the players to look slightly worried.
They ran for their lives.
But as others mentioned earlier, I felt that the DC's were somewhat easy: Generally speaking, the Aid Another DC is not so hard to achieve, so with 6 players, I think you can quite easily achieve a +6 on the total check. The DCs may be spot on for a 5-player party though.
The final encounter turned out to be brutal enough to have the players worried: The "High ground" tactics combined with the AC at ground level were interesting.
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The final encounter turned out to be brutal enough to have the players worried: The "High ground" tactics combined with the AC at ground level were interesting.When I ran it I found the final encounter to be fairly weak. Kalim runs out of daggers very fast and their range increment makes him unlikely to hit.
not to forget that kalim and his panther have a protected charge feat that is COMPLETELY useless when they are on different levels of the battle.
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On the aiding situation there I one thing I wasn't clear about. Each chase point has two options and we are told to take the highest check and treat the rest as aids. Is that regardless of which check is made? So if our highest roll is acrobatics to swing across the river but everyone else swam do the swim checks count or do we calculate the best roll across each of the two checks?
To give an example, lets say we have 4 players. Two decide to use acrobatics, two use swim. The acrobatics people gat a 14 and a 6. The swim people get a 13 and a 10.
Which of these is right?
They score an 18 because the highest check is 14 and 2 people got a 10 to aid.
They score a 14 acrobatics as the 6 doesn't aid and a 15 swim as the 10 does and so we take the 15.
Given the different DC's what would happen if our highest result doesn't make the DC but a lower result on a different skill check does make it?
My understanding is the party acts as one. Together they must decide which check to make (acrobatics). Everyone makes the attempt. The highest (14 in your example) gets an aid from the next highest and the next highest and so on down the line until the check is less than 10.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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It worked out great. I *Really* liked this mechanic...
"Tyrannosaurus Chase" still makes me giggle.
Overall, fun module. I ran with 3 players and a pregen, and we took 3.5 hours (mostly because the swarm...
You've got John to thank for pointing me in the right direction with the chase scene mechanics.
To others reading, don't forget the tactics line in the swarm stat block. They shouldn't stick around long enough to do too much damage. If I recall correctly, they disperse after 6 rounds. (Another tip from John, ensuring that the swarms don't simply obliterate an ill-prepared party.)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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My party had a hard time on the chase because we out-thought it. We had 7 players, and all the eggs in the haversack. 4 of us (including the egg man) immediately used consumables to just fly out of the area. But the remaining 3 had to run the rest of the chase by themselves. They eventually made it out, but it made it really boring to wait for them. And then it still counted against our total delays.
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I might be having a 'slow day', but what is the Boon about? (Re:Grippli)
Here's what I said about this boon and one other that is structurally similar to it:
There are two such boons tied to different races that establish a closer connection with representatives of that group. At present they provide no mechanical benefits, but they allow me to introduce later boons that might interact with them (grow in power, open up some form of access, etc.) if a player has earned both.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Yeah, the new mechanic is pretty good. I hate it when one person's bad roll can drag everyone down, because with six people rolling, that's bound to happen. So this is nice.
I wanna emphasize that: the mechanic is nice, because wasted good rolls are un-fun. I'm not too concerned with realism; chase scenes should be fast-paced, full of adrenaline, and people cheering for good rolls.
I do think the DCs could be higher, although I'm not sure how much. But if you have a lot of people rolling, odds are high that at least one of them will roll well. It seems this scenario compensates for that by adding dire consequences for failure, but if failure is very rare, that's not a great solution.
I'm not entirely sure how high the DCs should be, but I would advise a more fine-grained scale than just the 4/6-player scaling. A 6-player party with two eidolons and ACs helping out is rolling a lot more dice than a 5-player party. Also, there's a much higher chance of party members with the right skill set for every check.
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I really like the "everyone rolls and we use the best + aid" mechanic instead of "pick a leader, every else aids" mechanic.
Yeah, I like this method, in theory. When I played this scenario, we smashed every skill check. There might have been a couple that we didn't beat by 10 or more, but despite the chase being really cool, there ended up being zero tension in it. I mean, getting chased by a T-Rex should be SCARY, instead it kinda felt slapstick... with the punchline every time being another Aspis agent getting eaten or torn in half or crushed
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Still getting the hang of running a smooth chase, considering the players wanting to try all sorts of harebrained schemes and having to figure out how to rule their actions. Especially with players stuck in combat initiative mindsets despite never having rolled initiative. Still, it went over pretty well and they didn't end up failing more than three of the obstacles.
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I just got back from running this and was careful to hide the DC's required. The PCs knew they succeeded, they didn't know they succeeded by about 10...Still, a good time was had by all (especially heartening given the initial reaction to a chase being growns all round the table).
Yeah, I can imagine not letting the players know what the DCs are would make it feel a little more exciting. I will keep that in mind for when I run this and make certain to do the same.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Yeah, I can imagine not letting the players know what the DCs are would make it feel a little more exciting. I will keep that in mind for when I run this and make certain to do the same.
I just got back from running this and was careful to hide the DC's required. The PCs knew they succeeded, they didn't know they succeeded by about 10...Still, a good time was had by all (especially heartening given the initial reaction to a chase being growns all round the table).
That worked well when Monkhound ran it for us. What also worked very well was that he told us to decide as a group which of the two approaches to pick, we all had to use the same approach, and make the decision in 10 seconds.
We were frantically working to figure out which approach to pick every time, rather than pause and remark on how easily this was going.
A chase that actually runs very fast as a scene, who would've thought [i]that[/li] would go down as a game mechanic? :P
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5 player:
paladin 5 (experienced player)
magus 5 (starter player with experience)
cleric 2 (starter player)
Sorcerer 3 (intermediate player)
pregen Investigater 4 (starter player)
So we played tier 4-5 with 4 player... (in retrospection, i should have played like 5 and more)
Even if they had no survival, the dice where with them.
The monkey tree works. and they all clean themselves.
Because of my error the combat section where pretty easy and the chase also. (all win) It was still fun.
the final combat. all of that was easy, (there should had just more than at least 3 more poacher) but Karim was normal because I didn't like the easiness. And I cast him barkskin. knowing there a battle, he should cast it.
The paladin and magus rased this place.
I didn't know about how the egg was. I was thinking they were pretty heavy. So some questions arised in the chase moment.
Also... the fruit is a sort of alien thing in the chase. My paladin didn't understand why it was there in the context of the adventure.
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I may have missed it, but is there any way for the PCs to figure out that their enemies are Aspis agents? The can deduce from Jace's note that they are not very nice people and maybe even criminal, but that is hardly enough evidence to actively attack them; one of the first things they can do in the chase is to knock over their enemies to gain an advantage.
Seems pretty evil to me - "These guys want the same thing we want, let's see if we can make the dinosaur eat them!"
If they played the first part they know an Aspis agent left in the same direction they are going, but the Consortium shouldn't know about the "weapon" (though maybe this will be explained in Part 3, didn't buy it yet). So no reason to really suspect them involved in this.
How Valacosti managed to call his allies to the village so quick - well, that's magic for you, but still...