Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Theodum was meeting up with Thod in the library of the Emerald Lodge. “There have been bad news from the South. I don’t have full information – but it seems the holy grooves of the Blackwood Glade has been burned down by pillagers living north to us on the mountain.
There are rumours they used Risen Undead and other evil creatures – but that might only be rumours. It also isn’t clear if everyone in Blackwood Glade is now dead or if there are survivors and if some or all of these survivors are now heading back towards Kyonin. I hear many different stories.
Please go and find out more. Offer help to the survivors. Look for a druid if there is anything that can be done to the holy groove. Retrieve a sapling or some seeds of any holy trees if nothing else can be salvaged.
I will reach out to the leaders in the North and the South to find out what can be done to stop such a tragedy to reoccurring. And organize me a bucked full of Emerald Spirit – I will have to give my prayers to Zog and hope he will listen.
It needs to be a new bucket – the old one disappeared. I suspect an unsavoury traveller and his donkey – he seemed surprisingly interested in my bucket.”
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I did write most of this this morning – since then A LOT has been posted in the other thread. But I felt it still is useful.
A new day – tempers have been high – so I felt I try to start with a Theodum post. A story enables to take out a little bit the sting. We are currently in EE – so a lot is still not refined. But how can we prevent a repeat of Blackwood Glade. Well – a start would be to talk with each other. And I mean with not against each other. Let’s try to better understand the other position.
I start with a post on the GW boards by Ryan Dancey Post Ryan
So here's my perspective.Several weeks ago the complaint was "nobody will PvP because the reputation penalties are too harsh". And lo, there was not very much PvP.
Then we made a change to make the rep penalty system a bit more lenient, iterated on that a couple of times through Crowdforging and ended up with what seemed a reasonable compromise.
Then the complaint was "nobody will PvP because there are no targets". And lo, there was not very much PvP.
And I said: "Why aren't you camping out in the places where you think there will be vulnerable targets to attack and ambushing them like real bandits?" And lo, there is now PvP.
So to my friends who are now the targets of bandits who have decided to play like bandits, I say: "Act like the world is a dangerous place and you have big bullseyes painted on your characters."
Scout: Send someone without vulnerable inventory through dangerous territory to see if they draw bandits or are ambushed. If they do, don't go there.
Run Silent: Don't chatter on in-game chat about what you're doing, where you are, and what you are carrying. There are lots of free/very low cost communication options. Use them.
Don't fight if you can't win: This tip has several subtips.
A: Offer a deal. Tell your attackers you'll give them half of your inventory if they let you live. They know they'll lose 25% no matter what if they kill you. Plus take a rep hit. Plus get flagged. Both sides take a risk - you take the risk that they kill you anyway after you hand over the ransom. They take the risk that you're lying about what you have in inventory and you'll short change them. Believe it or not, even in such a low-information situation deals can still be struck. Coin can always lubricate such a transaction. By the way, people who break or welsh on these kinds of deals get marked as untrustworthy, basically forever. Prisoner's Dilemma, anyone?
B: If you're not good at PvP, don't PvP. People acting as sophisticated ambushing bandits know what they are doing and are likely to be very good at killing characters. If you don't have overwhelming numbers, or have spent a LOT of time practicing your tactics as a group, trying to "Fight back" will just get you killed and the bandits get more loot. Swallow your pride and don't engage.
C: If you feel "trapped" in a hex, send everyone off in a random direction and at full speed. The bandits can only ambush one of you. Pre-arrange a place to meet after you get out of the dangerous area.
D: Call for help. Get on the forums and soon General Chat and ask for assistance. It may cost you something. Guards aren't free.
Here's my biggest piece of advice:
Small Settlements are not designed to be viable. There are a dozen large, complex Settlements that have matured to the point where they have established security and overwatch of some territory. You need to think seriously about joining those Settlements until such time as you have learned enough to be good enough to try and make a stand as a small group. I am virtually certain that if you asked one of those Settlements if you could join as a Company and keep your internal cohesion, they'd be happy to take you as a unit. It's a win/win for them.
You will have more fun. You will feel more secure. You will get taught important things you need to know.
There is a lot of good advice for PvE players. But let’s also try to help the PvP players. One of my members felt strongly enough to write her own piece – but let me try first to also give some advice similar to Ryan.
How to PvP without causing a rage-quit1) Target selection is crucial. Blackwood Glade was unfortunate as Golgotha didn’t distinguish between a small RP settlement and established EBA members who wants PvP. Hopefully this will get easier over time when players move and when there is a better feel of who is where and most importantly when you can actually identify to which company/settlement someone belongs to. Small settlements right now don’t make good targets. Off course this only works if the other side which wants to PvP isn’t using this to ‘hide’ in such places because it gives them an advantage.
2) Smack talk in chat. A lot of players react very badly to it. You can soften it a lot by doing it RP. Surely being killed by Guurzak and getting an orcish reply is much more acceptable to a RP or PvP player as ooc talk. This bit ALSO applies to the victims – swearing and insulting the attacker isn’t helpful either.
3) If they seem to come back – offer them a deal. Don’t wait for the victim to ask for a deal – especially if you aren’t even interested in most what he carries. If you are not interested in the loot – why not just say – let me check and take one pick – you can have the rest back. Mileage will vary between victims – so this would be more appropriate for someone you don’t even know who it is as someone running around in T2 equipment who seems to be a veteran.
4) Don’t tell them afterwards what to do better. Maybe this works in a year time – but right now players don’t want to be lectured what to do better. They will feel in the majority it is condescending – even if you think it is well meant.
5) Stubbornness kills the fun on both sides. Running in again and again if you have no chance is stupid – but killing that player again and again is also neither a challenge nor will it be a fulfilling experience. Maybe occasionally just let them be. It is unlikely you have a PvPer in front of you.
6) Getting killed isn’t the end. How often have you been killed by monsters. But at the same time – not getting full loot isn’t the end either. Is it really worthwhile to ensure you get all.
Remember – I hear from the Eve players that Pathfinder right now is more dangerous as Eve – at the same time I hear from developers that it isn’t intended that way. There are no save places anywhere. So somehow we have to ensure we manage to get where the developers want us to be without driving out part of the population for this game.
I tried to build a semi-safe zone around Emerald Lodge and I have to thank the whole community that this experiment works very well so far. But I know of players who haven’t joined us because of our location next to Golgotha. And I can’t blame them - all it takes right now would be one or two players to destroy what a lot enjoy in Emerald Lodge – a reason I actually rather have kept quiet about it instead of using it to advertise and attract the wrong people who like to show they can destroy it.
I know that a lot of aspects in the game are still a while off that channel PvP in meaningful ways. So we have to use tolerance and restraint to survive as a community until all this is in place. Ryan said ‘Hard is fun’. Unfortunately it is hard to do PvP right now in a meaningful way. But if you do it the hard way by opting for some restraint then there will be more fun in this community long term.
My position is neither pro PvP nor pro PvE. I try to find a way where both can co-exist. This sandbox is big enough for us all. We just need to work out how to play with each by accepting other play styles and enriching the overall game that way.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I’ve avoided posting in PvP threads, but I thought it might help to have the opinion of a non-PvPer who (a) invested probably more than I should have in the Kickstarter and (b) is enjoying the game.
First, some background. I’ve been playing tabletop, starting with D&D, since 1978. I’ve been playing MMOs since 1995, starting with AOL’s Neverwinter Nights. (I think we could have as many as 200 people logged in at once. Whoo hoo!)
Also of note: my brother’s an avid, cutthroat, and apparently excellent PvPer. So I’ve been having this discussion for twenty years now. We’ve never convinced each other, and we’re related and love each other dearly, so the chances of either side convincing the other here on the forums are pretty small.
I identify myself as a non-PvPer, and not an anti-PvPer, because I’ve enjoyed both large-scale combat (DAoC) and purely in-character combat (CoH); both of those were loads of fun. What I’m not fond of is small-scale, “surprise!” PvP. Because the one who gets surprised is me, and I’m not good at PvP, so it’s run or die. That’s not fun.
I stare at spreadsheets and think analytically all day long – gaming is for the creative, social side of my brain. PvP is neither of those things for me.
I don’t play MMOs to be competitive. I don’t min/max; I build to a character concept. I don’t read guides; I log in and play. I don’t care about being the best. I hang out with people I like, and roleplay. I don’t want a lecture – however well-intentioned – about what I did wrong; if it’s important to my enjoyment of the game, I’ll ask or I’ll figure it out, but otherwise, it’s just not something I care deeply about.
I game to have fun, and I stop gaming when it’s not fun. Playing in Golarion? Fun. Building a home in the wilderness? Fun. Eventually manning (womanning?) the barricades of my settlement against a rival settlement? Fun. Exploring, fighting monsters, hanging out IC in the tavern? Fun, fun, fun. Fighting a duel (which I will undoubtedly lose) in character? Potentially fun. Spending my two precious hours a night (if that) happily doing one of those things only to be surprised and either dying, or paying protection money? Not fun. Will never be fun. I can still enjoy the game – am enjoying the game - as long as the un-fun bits don’t outweigh the fun ones, but all the practice, arguments, and helpful hints in the world aren’t going to make me enjoy those un-fun parts. Silk purse, sow’s ear, you get the drift.
So far, the game is fun, and I’m happy to keep playing. Not that I’ve been doing a whole lot of that, as I’m swamped at work – worst time of year for me to be starting a new game! – but when I’m online, I’m having fun. Which, really, is the point of the thing.
There may be no solution to the Great PvPvPvE Debate that makes everyone deliriously happy, because – for better or worse - the game appeals to very different play styles and very different personalities. I don’t think there are enough of either yet to make a go of the game alone. So both sides are going to have to make EE work at this point – but we’re not going to get there if we continue to insult each other or talk past each other or talk down to each other. And we’re not going to get there unless both sides at least try to understand each other’s point of view.
It needs to be a new bucket – the old one disappeared. I suspect an unsavoury traveller and his donkey – he seemed surprisingly interested in my bucket.”
Suspect whomever you like Goblin-lover. Donkey and I have not ever been to Emerald Lodge. Our previous request to sample Emerald Liquor was never answered...so I figured we are unwelcome there. Perhaps security in your enclave is not exactly up to snuff.
That being said, I have refined goods that I would gladly transport to your town for adequate compensation.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am waiting to hear about 4 person group that tackled the 7 person not so new MMO players and won.
Haikido, you won't hear that. Why? Because the PvP'ers that so often claim they want a greater PvP challenge really don't want that. They weigh risk vs. reward in their engagements. They look for low risk and high reward. Anything south of that and they probably won't engage.
They will stealth up near you, see how many of you there are, see what type of armor you're wearing, see what type of weapons and attacks you're using (if they can), and try to figure out what type of loot you may be carrying. Then, they will make a determination of whether they can take you with relatively low risk. If the answer is yes, they'll target you and attack you all at once. Before you know it, you'll have 20% of your hit points, be slowed or stunned with gobs of stacks, and then you'll be dead and you'll respawn at a shrine. You may not even know who or how many hit you.
They don't want a fair fight. A fair fight is high risk, and unless the reward is astronomical they won't engage in that type of fight. Don't blame them for this, its the nature of the beast. Banditry, which is all the PvP'ers really have right now, is all about the risk vs. reward assessment.
And don't get me wrong, I am not faulting those that choose that play style. Its not something I personally would want to do, or even really "get", but its a necessary part of the game.
You need to think of PFO as the wild west, the frontier, its never safe. Always be prepared. Max zoom out your minimap. Scan your minimap constantly. Always stealth when you are standing still. Stealth when you are moving from node to node if they're close to each other. If you see a player you don't immediately recognize, turn and run. Always be in voice coms with your guild. If you're attacked, ask for help. Don't over-encumber yourself. If you need to pass through a chokepoint, expect to get ambushed, stealth through it. Don't use the roads, travel overland. Work in pairs or groups. Have a scout run ahead of you. In short, ALWAYS expect to be ambushed.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am waiting to hear about 4 person group that tackled the 7 person not so new MMO players and won.Haikido, you won't hear that. Why? Because the PvP'ers that so often claim they want a greater PvP challenge really don't want that. They weigh risk vs. reward in their engagements. They look for low risk and high reward. Anything south of that and they probably won't engage.
This is a blatent lie. There has been MANY times we through our faces at your zerg. And one of the few times we actually outnumbered your zerg, we lowered our numbers to make it even. we're willing to gake on a challenge, and we've gone up against people 5(us)vs8(them, and not gathereres) and won. We won't continouly throw ourselves at your when its 2:1. that's not a challenge, that stupidity or extreame boredom.
When we look at a fight, our first question is "do we have a chance at winning?" if yes, most of us are already running in, and can't to do any more questions. I'm not down there being a bandit to take your stuff, that's just the bonus.
http://youtu.be/6tgpMuC1tzE
This is just one example.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
This is just the start. When sieges are enabled, instead of gankers waiting outside their door it will be siege engines squashing the little guy because they want their spot. The settlements that cannot defend themselves will be destroyed or integrated. Outside of a really novel idea, there isn't anything a small settlement can offer a big one that they don't already have, so in comes the wrecking crew and what was once a settlement is now a shiny new parking lot.
http://youtu.be/6tgpMuC1tzE
This is just one example.
Oh the humanity!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am waiting to hear about 4 person group that tackled the 7 person not so new MMO players and won.Haikido, you won't hear that. Why? Because the PvP'ers that so often claim they want a greater PvP challenge really don't want that. They weigh risk vs. reward in their engagements. They look for low risk and high reward. Anything south of that and they probably won't engage.
They will stealth up near you, see how many of you there are, see what type of armor you're wearing, see what type of weapons and attacks you're using (if they can), and try to figure out what type of loot you may be carrying. Then, they will make a determination of whether they can take you with relatively low risk. If the answer is yes, they'll target you and attack you all at once. Before you know it, you'll have 20% of your hit points, be slowed or stunned with gobs of stacks, and then you'll be dead and you'll respawn at a shrine. You may not even know who or how many hit you.
They don't want a fair fight. A fair fight is high risk, and unless the reward is astronomical they won't engage in that type of fight. Don't blame them for this, its the nature of the beast. Banditry, which is all the PvP'ers really have right now, is all about the risk vs. reward assessment.
And don't get me wrong, I am not faulting those that choose that play style. Its not something I personally would want to do, or even really "get", but its a necessary part of the game.
You need to think of PFO as the wild west, the frontier, its never safe. Always be prepared. Max zoom out your minimap. Scan your minimap constantly. Always stealth when you are standing still. Stealth when you are moving from node to node if they're close to each other. If you see a player you don't immediately recognize, turn and run. Always be in voice coms with your guild. If you're attacked, ask for help. Don't over-encumber yourself. If you need to pass through a chokepoint, expect to get ambushed, stealth...
Have you ever actually run in to Golgothans?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I wasn't singling out any group or group(s). I wasn't trying to vilify anyone. I was intending to provide some suggestions on how to avoid being a victim of banditry, specifically. I could have worded it better.
I based my description of how banditry would be executed entirely on my experiences in EVE, projected that to what I expect in PFO, and based my recommendations on what I think were ways to counter that based upon the game as it is now.
The last paragraph is the crux of what I intended to bring across.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
People who PvP are competitive and want to see clear evidence they won. Everywhere. Even the forums. You can't put much import in these threads because at least half of every post is tactical verbal maneuvering, feints, and pushes to disable some ideas and and advance their own so they can win that too.
I've seen myself and my Golgothan mates in action. This is just one person's view but I'll share.
There's no one size fits all strategy or tactic. People are different, each one has moods too, and then there's the complication of group dynamics as people come together.
This is why lawful settlements set some minimum standards as well as often debriefing after combat to decide if we really liked that result and should we do it again or would we do it differently next time. These are constant conversations because we are trying to strike a balance. Although we want to be an "evil" settlement and we want to attract and retain PvPers by engaging in PvP, we aren't going to attract the folks we want with egregious behavior. This is why other power blocs always try to paint our behavior as worse than it is. They hope to interfere with us recruiting the responsible adults we're looking for (that they hope will become part of THEIR military machine, instead). I'd ALWAYS urge you to weigh your own experiences with Golgothans far more heavily than the negative propaganda other power blocs post. Even when they are truthful about a particular incident, they are trying to get the world to pinpoint focus on that one sub-optimal aspect instead of the overall actual realistic picture of the thousands of interactions Golgothans have that aren't controversial.
Yes we weigh risk over reward at times, but you're leaving out one very important part of that equation... reputation cost.
The beauty of defensive grouping is that if you're in a non-PvP hex that's an awful lot of rep hits for someone (even a group of someones) to take. Besides the rep hit we'd also get attacker flags and now be subject to tab targeting and the GROUP focused fire that allows.
But if you're in an open PvP window, well... who is ignoring risk versus reward, now?
I've seen (and heard on comms) players get our grace and run by us unmolested many many times. And I've seen us pounce.
On comms you'll also hear us comment on the intelligence of our possible targets, including praise for the smart ones. I *like* smart gatherers. Sometimes being a smart gatherer just means running when you see Midnight on your mini-map.
They live. I gather coal faster. And by the time my pack fills they have probably finished the sandwich they went off to make. There are DOZENS of folks who just know to clear out and come back later, especially if the PvP window is open.
But I've also seen the low intelligence play like someone who (after being warned earlier about poaching and telling us he was just passing through) would try and lumber off Zombie Kitten Mountain with so much copper that he was inching his way across the map with a forum famous PvPer walking behind him (and I was calling for backup on comms just for help to carry the expected loot) and then I watched him stroll into an open PvP hex.
Surely he's going to turn around, I think. "Don't be a jerk" comes to mind. Game mechanics don't let you see what the next hex is until you enter (and I've already suggested that we crowdforge a change to that). So abiding by the "Don't be a jerk" rule I give him time to turn around and exit the new Open PvP hex. The "Don't be a jerk" rule AND then, just sheer morbid curiosity keeps me from shooting him for an extra minute as I watch him blithely stroll further and further into an open PvP hex.
Anyone want to guess how that ended?
And my thanks to Flynn Pontis for helping carry the copper back to Golgotha where it belongs. :-)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People who PvP are competitive and want to see clear evidence they won. Everywhere. Even the forums. You can't put much import in these threads because at least half of every post is tactical verbal maneuvering, feints, and pushes to disable some ideas and and advance their own so they can win that too.
While there's some truth to that, there's also some fallacy to it.
There are times when you'll see legitimate honest crowdforging at the expense of PvP.
I have 2 crafters. I have a combat character that has killed a hundred (closer to a thousand) times more mobs than player characters. THIS character is a gatherer with far far more xp put into gathering than combat skills.
I want to be able to craft, gather, carry recipe drops, etc. without unreasonable risks. You can't get far in this game without doing that stuff.
I'll remind you, that it was Golgothan PvPers who invited the devs on the Hammerfall raid to show them how worthless Thornguards were. If you like Thornguards who fire on an attacker flag... thank Golgothan PvPers.
It is likely I and my mates accept risk (and even losses) more easily than those who have habitually avoided PvP, but we really are looking for the right balance of risk versus reward for the game in general.
And the low/no risk side has plenty of advocates. I can only hope people engage in INFORMED crowdforging rather than just what they read about in the forums. Especially because there are so few PvP voices to read.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Can you be more specific about what the necessary and sufficient conditions are for an unreasonable risk?
I want to be able to craft, gather, carry recipe drops, etc. without unreasonable risks. You can't get far in this game without doing that stuff.
It is subjective for each person, obviously. Thus the need for whole INFORMED crowdforging thing, tempered of course by the devs' intentions and the way the game is/was marketed.
I'll offer some SUBJECTIVE personal views...
To offer you an Eve-online example, I didn't like 4 cheap destroyers being able to kill a far more expensive Mackinaw before the Concorde "guards" could stop them.
In this game I wouldn't want to see a throwaway 1,000 point character two shotting my tier 2 equipped character. (I don't think that can happen now, but I also don't imagine myself crowdforging to get such a gank-friendly world).
I completely agree with the crafters who want to be able to see the mini-map while having the crafting window open.
I didn't start crafting until the devs improved the Thornguard behavior to fire on an attacker flag (and I'd *still* like to see the mini-map).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I am waiting to hear about 4 person group that tackled the 7 person not so new MMO players and won.Haikido, you won't hear that. Why? Because the PvP'ers that so often claim they want a greater PvP challenge really don't want that. They weigh risk vs. reward in their engagements. They look for low risk and high reward. Anything south of that and they probably won't engage.
Please watch the flawed rhetoric. Nature has spent millenia optimising us to take sensible risks in return for greater rewards. What you are suggesting with this that anyone who is interested in having to work a little harder for a higher chance of a better and quicker return ought to be suicidal about it.
Caveat: I still don't like one-on-one PvP combat
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Can you be more specific about what the necessary and sufficient conditions are for an unreasonable risk?
I want to be able to craft, gather, carry recipe drops, etc. without unreasonable risks. You can't get far in this game without doing that stuff.It is subjective for each person, obviously. Thus the need for whole INFORMED crowdforging thing, tempered of course by the devs' intentions and the way the game is/was marketed.
I'll offer some SUBJECTIVE personal views...
To offer you an Eve-online example, I didn't like 4 cheap destroyers being able to kill a far more expensive Mackinaw before the Concorde "guards" could stop them.
In this game I wouldn't want to see a throwaway 1,000 point character two shotting my tier 2 equipped character. (I don't think that can happen now, but I also don't imagine myself crowdforging to get such a gank-friendly world).
I completely agree with the crafters who want to be able to see the mini-map while having the crafting window open.
I didn't start crafting until the devs improved the Thornguard behavior to fire on an attacker flag (and I'd *still* like to see the mini-map).
I was asking what qualified for what you want, yourself. Not anyone else.
Based on your response, the current state of crafting is roughly borderline, because it's possible to suicide gank crafters, and that level of risk is greater than the level of risk in EvE? Would being "in the building", off of the main map, be sufficient risk reduction to make you happy? (The EvE equivalent isn't Hisec, but being docked at a station)
I (currently) don't want Eve station safety. That could change.
My problem (and I call it a problem because I know I'm in the minority, even though I'm right) ;-) is I want *some* risk even in crafting because I view crafting as just another cog in the military industrial complex.
I feel that I deserve a chance to interrupt that, which of course means the other guy deserves a chance to interrupt me.
The improved Thornguard behavior and an open mini-map might be all I need to be comfortable.
It is hard to say, though, because you can't predict how your human opponents will surprise you, later.
Emergent player behavior will probably make crowdforging as difficult as it makes being a developer difficult.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
To fight, or not to fight, that is the question -
Whether 'tis easier in rhe hex to flee
The spells and arrows of the ravenous horde,
Or to stand firm against invading armies,
And by defending, beat them? To fight, to die -
That's sure; and by a death, to say we rez
And run back, and then gather our possessions
Less what bandits took? 'Tis an evening's outing
Devoutly to avoid. To fight, to die,
To die, perchance to lose; Aye, lose our stuff,
For in that loss at death, what wasted time,
When we have staggered back to safety
Must give us grief.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To fight, or not to fight, that is the question -
Whether 'tis easier in rhe hex to flee
The spells and arrows of the ravenous horde,
Or to stand firm against invading armies,
And by defending, beat them? To fight, to die -
That's sure; and by a death, to say we rez
And run back, and then gather our possessions
Less what bandits took? 'Tis an evening's outing
Devoutly to avoid. To fight, to die,
To die, perchance to lose; Aye, lose our stuff,
For in that loss at death, what wasted time,
When we have staggered back to safety
Must give us grief.
That's beautiful. You should write that down on a graphic and post it to Tumblr. It might even get famous some day.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
I (currently) don't want Eve station safety. That could change.
My problem (and I call it a problem because I know I'm in the minority, even though I'm right) ;-) is I want *some* risk even in crafting because I view crafting as just another cog in the military industrial complex.
I feel that I deserve a chance to interrupt that, which of course means the other guy deserves a chance to interrupt me.
The improved Thornguard behavior and an open mini-map might be all I need to be comfortable.
It is hard to say, though, because you can't predict how your human opponents will surprise you, later.
Emergent player behavior will probably make crowdforging as difficult as it makes being a developer difficult.
Would you be satisfied if the settlement itself could be attacked in some manner to disrupt the industrial base?
Because what I see now is roughly analogous to a squad of German soldiers walking into the Detroit tank factory and shooting the assembly line workers during the Battle of the Bulge. And I think that is not how large-scale warfare should play out.
In real life people come in on student visas, pay us to train them to fly airplanes, and then crash airplanes into buildings.
Your Detroit tank factory premise is JUST as intriguing in the possibilities, especially in a game with bluff and disguise feats.
But yes, attacking the settlement is certainly a viable way to handle it, and perhaps spares people the psychologically icky personalization of being PvP victims.
They didn't kill me. They damaged my workstation.
But will that workstation or the settlement drop recipes? 8-)
Part of the question is... how large-scale vs small scale do we want things to be? Depersonalizing some of the PvP by keeping it at a large scale might lead to a game that Ryan and Lisa are more comfortable with.
But I'd want a lone person or a small stealthy organized band of folks to feel like they too can have an effect on war (and even an outsized effect when defenders get sloppy). I really need to read up on whatever has been written about assassination. [Conjures Tigari].
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alot has changed since these blogs, but here is what is written so far:
This one just hits on it
I shot a man in reno just to watch him die
This one goes a little more into it
Join forces underground
I was discussing the destruction of workstation concept on comms and someone reminded me that shooting buildings is even more boring than fighting AI mobs.
Given the current community's recent pushback on the devs' proposed WoT changes (to the point where many of us can now do just fine with a zero tower settlement), it is hard to imagine the exact same community won't crowdforge any crafting loss to similar irrelevance.
But, even though shooting a building is boring, if it actually was RELEVANT it could be a worthwhile use of play time, and by being relevant might at least cause other players to show up and make things interesting.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
It needs to be a new bucket – the old one disappeared. I suspect an unsavoury traveller and his donkey – he seemed surprisingly interested in my bucket.”
Suspect whomever you like Goblin-lover. Donkey and I have not ever been to Emerald Lodge. Our previous request to sample Emerald Liquor was never answered...so I figured we are unwelcome there. Perhaps security in your enclave is not exactly up to snuff.
Grip, I got the item. Meet me in the agreed place?
There seemed to be some kind of druidish ward made from string and a rat skeleton, but i managed to disable it.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In real life people come in on student visas, pay us to train them to fly airplanes, and then crash airplanes into buildings.
Please, avoid that kind of rhetoric. It was a tragically event, but you are using it as a way to stop counter arguments and that is a bad behavior in a forum.
BTW: you succeeded with me. The opening row of your post make any reply unfeasible.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Would you be satisfied if the settlement itself could be attacked in some manner to disrupt the industrial base?
Because what I see now is roughly analogous to a squad of German soldiers walking into the Detroit tank factory and shooting the assembly line workers during the Battle of the Bulge. And I think that is not how large-scale warfare should play out.
Large Scale warfare is not just the final battle (siege) for settlement destruction or control. That may just be the climax at the end of weeks or months of much smaller skirmishes, battles and campaigns.
The fall of a settlement will begin with the desire to wage that war, and the killing of just one character (the first casualty).
In real life people come in on student visas, pay us to train them to fly airplanes, and then crash airplanes into buildings.
Please, avoid that kind of rhetoric. It was a tragically event, but you are using it as a way to stop counter arguments and that is a bad behavior in a forum.
BTW: you succeeded with me. The opening row of your post make any reply unfeasible.
Every city siege in medieval times was a tragic event. The Detroit factory plan that Decius Brutus posited (and I responded to) would have been a tragic event. Many of the behaviors of my hero Francis Marion led to tragedy for people. Many of the collective punishment reprisals for his actions (as well as collective punishment reprisals for the actions of other guerrilla fighters throughout history) were tragedies.
Simply put: war, insurgency, revolution, and even crime is tragic.
How delicate will your sensibilities be when justice systems for settlements come in and we have to discuss policing and proportional and non-proportional responses to crime?
If the real world is off limits in the forums (and I'd take my cue from the devs on that) that makes discussions more difficult but not impossible. All I'd ask from devs is that it be truly neutral and not jingoistic in a game with an international audience, because every real world glorious military victory that led to dancing in the streets was a tragedy for someone else.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Given the current community's recent pushback on the devs' proposed WoT changes (to the point where many of us can now do just fine with a zero tower settlement), it is hard to imagine the exact same community won't crowdforge any crafting loss to similar irrelevance.
Funny, I thought the community was trying - unsuccessfully - to get Goblinworks to make the Towers more significant by capping NPC Settlements at Level 6 (no Tier 2 at all) and starting PC Settlements at Level 7.
You make it sound like the community demanded the current system, but that's exactly the opposite of true.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
because every real world glorious military victory that led to dancing in the streets was a tragedy for someone else.
Real world, or not, actually.
We could all stand to remember that every time someone wins, someone else loses. Whether it's a bandit encounter, or a forum encounter. And sometimes (all too frequently) there's a third loser, in the form of the game population.
Given the current community's recent pushback on the devs' proposed WoT changes (to the point where many of us can now do just fine with a zero tower settlement), it is hard to imagine the exact same community won't crowdforge any crafting loss to similar irrelevance.Funny, I thought the community was trying - unsuccessfully - to get Goblinworks to make the Towers more significant by capping NPC Settlements at Level 6 (no Tier 2 at all) and starting PC Settlements at Level 7.
You make it sound like the community demanded the current system, but that's exactly the opposite of true.
I might be misunderstanding it. I thought that when the original dev plan to get rid of the core 6 towers was announced that players complained and the devs gave them a system where PC settlements without towers would always be just one level behind the maximum xp training level and would need only 3 towers to equal the maximum xp training level.
If, instead, our crowdforgers were clamoring for more PvP, then Yay.
You may very well have followed that issue closer than I did.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In real life people come in on student visas, pay us to train them to fly airplanes, and then crash airplanes into buildings.
Please, avoid that kind of rhetoric. It was a tragically event, but you are using it as a way to stop counter arguments and that is a bad behavior in a forum.
BTW: you succeeded with me. The opening row of your post make any reply unfeasible.
Every city siege in medieval times was a tragic event. The Detroit factory plan that Decius Brutus posited (and I responded to) would have been a tragic event. Many of the behaviors of my hero Francis Marion led to tragedy for people. Many of the collective punishment reprisals for his actions (as well as collective punishment reprisals for the actions of other guerrilla fighters throughout history) were tragedies.
Simply put: war, insurgency, revolution, and even crime is tragic.
How delicate will your sensibilities be when justice systems for settlements come in and we have to discuss policing and proportional and non-proportional responses to crime?
If the real world is off limits in the forums (and I'd take my cue from the devs on that) that makes discussions more difficult but not impossible. All I'd ask from devs is that it be truly neutral and not jingoistic in a game with an international audience, because every real world glorious military victory that led to dancing in the streets was a tragedy for someone else.
It is clear you don't haven't got at all what I was saying.
My point is that you have used a emotionally laden argument that make very hard to argue against what you have said , but for reasons totally unrelated tot he validity or less of your position.Any counter argument putting your post in the right prospective will have problems with the real life example you have chosen. You can do the same kind of debate trick using Hitler or Stalin as references in your post.
Stick to in game references. They don't bring with them outside emotional baggages.
"Now you can go where people are one,
Now you can go where they get things done."
-Jello Biafra
Grip, I got the item. Meet me in the agreed place?There seemed to be some kind of druidish ward made from string and a rat skeleton, but i managed to disable it.
Ahhhhhhhhhh! Away with you gingery demon! I have not nor ever will contract for thievery! Are you trying to set all the Lodgers upon me??
A drink taken without invite brings baaaaaaad luck and I'll have none of it!
*scampers off zigzag-like into the forest*
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I was under the impression they were aiming to be villains from the start.
Golgotha has always proudly claimed the title of Evil Empire. I hope they continue to aspire to be honorable players.
The Everbloom Alliance's war on Golgotha is one of unqualified necessity. I do not think even the most pacifist among our allies fail to see the urgency.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Is it really a war though? Or is it just giving us what we've been asking for? I mean, if its an actual call of War, I can go back to doing what my job in warfare is, Spec ops/black ops style missions, liking hindering your supply. This mean hunting gatherers and people comming in to trade.
Now, if its just some friendly pvp, I can continue to just enjoy the little WoT skirmishes we've been having, something I'd rather do, as I sorely miss being able to enter Beautiful Golgotha. But, I will do as the Empire needs of me.