Ok, so my players are gonna attack an enemy village next turn. Their plan is to throw alchemists fire and other stuff on the houses to set them on fire (they'll burn easily being made out of wood, leaves, etc).
Now, most people will be inside being asleep. We all know fire is a major hazard, not because of fire but because the smoke might kill you before you even wake up.
I'm just not sure how to deal with it in game. Not looking for hard rules, since I don't think they exist (though they might), but more thoughts on how other GMs would deal with it. I don't want to make it too easy on them by saying "wonderful, everyone burns to death" and not deny them their success outright by going "Ha! They all make it out easy enough!" (unless the die say so, but then it's out of my hand).
There are rules for Smoke here, which is good, but for example what would it take for a person to actually wake up from smoke?
Also, said houses/huts, how fast would they burn, how many rounds before the roof crashes in, dealing bludgeoning damage and then fire damage? 1? 5? 10?
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How realistic do you want to go with this? It'd take a good minute for the roof to burn enough for it to cave in. That's when I'd have folks start waking up if they haven't been suffocated to death or set on fire already. 'Course if this were the heroes setting a village on fire I'd basically say that their main villain(s) make it outside to do battle having suffered a little while the NPCs are basically just left in the background. After the adventure I'd epilogue about how many bystanders died in choking agony, a moment of horror seared forever into their charred flesh.
Then I'd have the Flame oracle with the burns curse appear and start hunting the party...
Carrion Crown has some simple rules for burning buildings.
Essentially every round the fire spreads into one adjacent 5 foot square. Fires can be put out by spending a full round action to do something to smother the fire, or by casting Create Water or the like.
Peasants caught in the fire fall unconscious immediately, and burn to death the next round.
Once the fire has spread to every available square, the building collapses.
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There's a reason we invented fire alarms. Short of getting lucky, you will probably be beyond saving by the time the conditions force you to awaken.
Or at least, that would be true if you weren't a PC. PCs are way better than real people.
For waking up, I'd say DC25 perception check (but at -10 penalty for being asleep, so effectively DC35). Reduces by -5 if the smoke reaches you, but for many it may be too late if that happens. You auto wake up if you take damage, as long as that is less than the amount needed to knock you otherwise unconscious.
For smoke issues, I'd say fort save every round (DC15, +1 per round) to avoid 1d6 nonlethal damage, +8 bonus and no auto-fail if you drop low to the ground (which halves move speed). If you fail a save while unconscious due to inhalation you die instead. Thankfully, if you were stupid enough to be standing when you went out, you would probably land prone and gain the low-to-the-ground bonus. No checks at all until the smoke gets built up a small bit, so you might get lucky and wake up before it gets bad. Holding your breath only helps if you can get a breath of /fresh/ air, which can only happen early in the fire, such as if you wake up before being hit by smoke.
Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10.
All of the dots. I need this for next session.
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Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10.
.. *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10.
Can you take 10 while you're asleep?
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Ok, so my players are gonna attack an enemy village next turn. Their plan is to throw alchemists fire and other stuff on the houses to set them on fire (they'll burn easily being made out of wood, leaves, etc).
Now, most people will be inside being asleep. We all know fire is a major hazard, not because of fire but because the smoke might kill you before you even wake up.
I'm just not sure how to deal with it in game. Not looking for hard rules, since I don't think they exist (though they might), but more thoughts on how other GMs would deal with it. I don't want to make it too easy on them by saying "wonderful, everyone burns to death" and not deny them their success outright by going "Ha! They all make it out easy enough!" (unless the die say so, but then it's out of my hand).
There are rules for Smoke here, which is good, but for example what would it take for a person to actually wake up from smoke?
Also, said houses/huts, how fast would they burn, how many rounds before the roof crashes in, dealing bludgeoning damage and then fire damage? 1? 5? 10?
Consider lighting charcoal with lighter fluid, it burns easily at first, then the fuel burns away. Hopefully the charcoal is burning in its own right by this point. So yes, I think Alchemist Fire can put a village roof on fire, but I don't think each 5' square and corresponding splash damage squares all need to be ablaze instantly. The AF burns out within 12 seconds after all.
Also, villagers know the danger of fires mingling with thatch roofs. If your neighbors house is on fire, you help fight it, mostly out of self interest, so any fire will mobilize the entire village.
How do they know 100% of the occupants are "bad guys"? In order to maintain peace families often intermarried not just politically, but financially. A blackmith may marry his daughter off to a mine owner's son to procure favorable prices on ore. Basically, someone in the civilized part of the world is going to be "upset" when they learn their little sister burned to death, and nobles or wealthy merchants have a shrewd sense of justice. Even unrelated peasants are in actuality "taxpayers" upon which a nobleman builds his fortune. So a lot of people are going to miss an entire village...
I would discourage this tactic, but role players often act out in ways they never would in real life. Give em consequences for acting like serial killers disregarding human life. Word of mouth should shut doors everywhere to crude scorched earth tactics like these.
Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Smell of smoke is DC 0, being asleep adds 10, so the DC is 10.
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Smell of smoke is DC 0, being asleep adds 10, so the DC is 10.Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Hmm.. that seems a bit low to me. At least for passing the check before having to make a save against the effects of the smoke. Oh well.
EDIT: Actually, that's what it takes to notice it, but what does it take for you to actually *wake up* because of it? Is noticing it sufficient? If it is, then I imagine people are fairly light sleepers in the PF world.
Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Yar, dangerous. But not DC 20. I'd say 15 to notice and wake up (asleep + "unfavorable conditions").
Though depends on the "average person".
A Farmer has a +1 bonus. A Barmaid (and presumably other tavern workers) have a +4, Guards have a +3, and the average "Townsperson" has a +3 as well.
So not quite a Nat 20 needed for anyone, so slightly less deadly.
Smell of smoke is DC 0, being asleep adds 10, so the DC is 10.Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Hmm.. that seems a bit low to me. At least for passing the check before having to make a save against the effects of the smoke. Oh well.
EDIT: Actually, that's what it takes to notice it, but what does it take for you to actually *wake up* because of it? Is noticing it sufficient? If it is, then I imagine people are fairly light sleepers in the PF world.
I'd imagine that's what the +10 DC represents. When you notice it, you wake up. ...if you want.
Carrion Crown has some simple rules for burning buildings.
Essentially every round the fire spreads into one adjacent 5 foot square. Fires can be put out by spending a full round action to do something to smother the fire, or by casting Create Water or the like.
Peasants caught in the fire fall unconscious immediately, and burn to death the next round.
Once the fire has spread to every available square, the building collapses.
Either our gm used the rules wrong or they suck. Create water just gave +2 on the roll to smother the fire and other spells did nothing at all. Like drench.
@topic: if someone notices the fire and the attackers they will raise an alarm. And most animals get quite noisy in the face of fire. That could wake people before the fire or smoke kills them.|
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I'd imagine that's what the +10 DC represents. When you notice it, you wake up. ...if you want.Smell of smoke is DC 0, being asleep adds 10, so the DC is 10.Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Hmm.. that seems a bit low to me. At least for passing the check before having to make a save against the effects of the smoke. Oh well.
EDIT: Actually, that's what it takes to notice it, but what does it take for you to actually *wake up* because of it? Is noticing it sufficient? If it is, then I imagine people are fairly light sleepers in the PF world.
To take the discussion too far: If you have a friend that smokes indoors, does that increase the DC to wake up from smelling smoke? How about a fireplace (probably not in this case, flue and all that)?
I'm just calling from memory, so that may be it.
But Drench definitely shouldn't work. Drench is a light sprinkle on a fire 5 feet in diameter.
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Either our gm used the rules wrong or they suck. Create water just gave +2 on the roll to smother the fire and other spells did nothing at all. Like drench.Carrion Crown has some simple rules for burning buildings.
Essentially every round the fire spreads into one adjacent 5 foot square. Fires can be put out by spending a full round action to do something to smother the fire, or by casting Create Water or the like.
Peasants caught in the fire fall unconscious immediately, and burn to death the next round.
Once the fire has spread to every available square, the building collapses.
It is *very* difficult to stop a fire once it has grown to a good size. Unless you're dealing with a fire that's jstill inside the trash can, create water and such are unlikely to work as auto-snuff. And beware o' them grease fires! You might make it worse!
To take the discussion too far: If you have a friend that smokes indoors, does that increase the DC to wake up from smelling smoke? How about a fireplace (probably not in this case, flue and all that)?I'd imagine that's what the +10 DC represents. When you notice it, you wake up. ...if you want.Smell of smoke is DC 0, being asleep adds 10, so the DC is 10.Detecting the smell of smoke is only DC 10... *if* you're awake and attentive. Though that still leaves the perception rules a bit more generous than me.
Creature is asleep is +10, which makes the DC 20 to wake up before getting hurt by the smoke. I would still lower that by 5 if you had to make a save against it (whether pass or fail).
That still means an average person needs a nat-20 to wake up before having to make a save. Plenty dangerous.
Hmm.. that seems a bit low to me. At least for passing the check before having to make a save against the effects of the smoke. Oh well.
EDIT: Actually, that's what it takes to notice it, but what does it take for you to actually *wake up* because of it? Is noticing it sufficient? If it is, then I imagine people are fairly light sleepers in the PF world.
Personally I'd say that the scents of those two things are different enough to a house fire that I wouldn't modify the DC. But, those could be considered unfavorable conditions (and the modifiers for those exist).
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So, I play with a firefighter who's informed me that on average a fire doubles in size every minute. In Pathfinder a fire doubles in size every round, or 6 seconds. That means that in the time it takes for a fire to double in real life, the fire can be 1000 times bigger in pathfinder (theoretically, I know eventually the fire will be several squares deep, and only the outside spreads.) Ever since I learned this, I can't take a fire challenge seriously. A candle falling over would likely burn down the entire town before anyone could do anything the way the rules have been presented. That's why I go with the 1 minute rule in my game, unless there's something extremely flammable next to the fire. It's actually kinda comical to go from the "Oh no, we're all going to die" fire of Pathfinder modules to the "Listen, I'll take care of it when I'm good and ready" fire.
Although I do like the idea of burning roofs in this case, because the fire can have plenty of time to spread a top the roof before people notice, and at that point the smoke and falling debris can be the real danger.
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Most PFS scenarios use a DC 12 Survival check to put out a 5' square. The GM can use circumstantial mods to increase or decrease the DC depending on tactics (waterskin, create water, think blanket to smother it)
Also consider a lvl 3 mage can summon a small water elemental that can douse flames. A levl 5 mage could summon 1-3 small elementals that can put out a fire quickly. Each elemental that uses Drench ability can put out a non-magical fire covering a 10 x 10 area each round with 100% success. So i'm not sure how many vials of AF they are thinking about throwing or what the village has by way of resources.
So, I play with a firefighter who's informed me that on average a fire doubles in size every minute. In Pathfinder a fire doubles in size every round, or 6 seconds. That means that in the time it takes for a fire to double in real life, the fire can be 1000 times bigger in pathfinder (theoretically, I know eventually the fire will be several squares deep, and only the outside spreads.) Ever since I learned this, I can't take a fire challenge seriously. A candle falling over would likely burn down the entire town before anyone could do anything the way the rules have been presented. That's why I go with the 1 minute rule in my game, unless there's something extremely flammable next to the fire. It's actually kinda comical to go from the "Oh no, we're all going to die" fire of Pathfinder modules to the "Listen, I'll take care of it when I'm good and ready" fire.
Although I do like the idea of burning roofs in this case, because the fire can have plenty of time to spread a top the roof before people notice, and at that point the smoke and falling debris can be the real danger.
Not quite.
The fire doubles in the first round. Then increases by a 1/3 in the second round. Then increases by 1/4 in the third round. Then increases by 1/5 in the 4th round, and so on and so forth.
Meaning that by round 10 (1 minute) the fire would be 10 squares around. And round 20 (2 minutes) it would be 20 squares around. And 30 at minute 3, and so on.
The fire spreads one square each round, not to each adjacent square each round.
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So, I play with a firefighter who's informed me that on average a fire doubles in size every minute. In Pathfinder a fire doubles in size every round, or 6 seconds. That means that in the time it takes for a fire to double in real life, the fire can be 1000 times bigger in pathfinder (theoretically, I know eventually the fire will be several squares deep, and only the outside spreads.) Ever since I learned this, I can't take a fire challenge seriously. A candle falling over would likely burn down the entire town before anyone could do anything the way the rules have been presented. That's why I go with the 1 minute rule in my game, unless there's something extremely flammable next to the fire. It's actually kinda comical to go from the "Oh no, we're all going to die" fire of Pathfinder modules to the "Listen, I'll take care of it when I'm good and ready" fire.
Although I do like the idea of burning roofs in this case, because the fire can have plenty of time to spread a top the roof before people notice, and at that point the smoke and falling debris can be the real danger.
Not quite.
The fire doubles in the first round. Then increases by a 1/3 in the second round. Then increases by 1/4 in the third round. Then increases by 1/5 in the 4th round, and so on and so forth.
EDIT - So just went and read a couple of the scenarios I know have fires in them
Meaning that by round 10 (1 minute) the fire would be 10 squares around. And round 20 (2 minutes) it would be 20 squares around. And 30 at minute 3, and so on.
The fire spreads one square each round, not to each adjacent square each round.
That's not how it usually goes with the games I've played, but who knows, I know GMs I play with have gotten things wrong before. And sometimes there is a roll to see if each square of fire spreads, but it's usually a 50/50 which still means spreading to around 40 times the size in a minute on average. That's still a ridiculous amount for anyone trying to put out the flames without the aid of a handful of water elementals.
EDIT - Just went and re-read the one scenario I know had a fire and it spreads to 1 square for every 2 squares on fire every round. Still spreads up to 63 times the size in a minute. But I think every fire challenge is slightly different, since they only cover forest fires in the CRB.
When my PC cast Wall of Fire in a house the building started to collapse on the party pretty quickly. I think the DM reasoned it was super hot magical fire. He'd probably kick himself if he read this thread and realized he could have used the Smoke rules to make the PCs choke to death.
Anyhow, regarding the plan to set fire to the enemy village, I wonder if the enemies post any sort of guard. If so the PCs might want to take out the guard before starting the fire so that the guard doesn't raise an alarm and begin waking folks up. Pet such as dogs are another potential problem here since I'd think a dog would be likely to start barking when some strangers show up and set the roof on fire.
Even the act of setting the roof on fire might be problematic. If the alchemist's fire is in ceramic jars it seems like it might land on a thatch roof without breaking or roll off the roof and set a fire next to the house instead of on top of it. Even if the jar does break I'd think that the sound of a breaking jar might wake somebody up.
It could also be important to know when the last time it rained was and whether the enemy village has anybody who can summon water elementals. In general I wouldn't think that setting a village on fire would be likely to kill many of the inhabitants, but it might force them out of their homes in various states of undress and ill-equipped for battle. It also might provide enough of a distraction that the PCs can sneak around a bit, especially if the villagers believe it was a hit and run attack.
Just remember....
One cow...
One lamp....
One burned out major American city.
In a world considerably more advanced than Golarion.
And no magic.
If the PCs throw oil first, the oil burns for an additional 2 rounds and would, I imagine, help spread the fire with greater ease. The comment re: ceramic jars makes a lot of sense though. I would be sure to make constant perception checks. Be sure to have those that wake up be the wife who sends their husband to investigate the sound with a club. :P
It is *very* difficult to stop a fire once it has grown to a good size. Unless you're dealing with a fire that's jstill inside the trash can, create water and such are unlikely to work as auto-snuff.
It is difficult. But having 2 gallons of water/level should make it significantly easier as compared to using your jacket or your bare hands. And +2 is not at all enough to show that difference.
@drench: We used it to keep the fire from spreading in one direction. But the fire ignored the "sudden downpour that is called out to auto-extinguish small fires" and spread to exactly that square and with that towards the NPCs.
Edit: Messed up the quoting
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Things to remember: its a village, a "Medieval" village meaning we have all sort of animals (dogs, chickens, ducks, pigs, oxen, horses etc.) living inside these peasant cottages or at least in very close proximity. Most of these animals are also "fire detectors" who are going to raise an unholy racket around fire even if the silly humans are prone to sleeping through it. If it's a village with any sort of hostile creatures about (you know the usual orcs, goblins, drow whatever) then there will be guards or someone on watch 24-7 to warn the village of attackers and coincidently fires. In any case the sheer number of Perception checks to detect the smoke/fire should make it very difficult to burn the village down with everyone dying inside their cottages. Fighting the fire and having a home left afterwards is another matter.
The best two fire fighting spells are Quench (Druid 3) and Pyrotechnics (Bard 2, Sor/Wiz 2) if you can deal with the resulting light show or smoke. Create Water is a decent "we no longer have to have a bucket brigade from the well, pond or river" to battle the fire.
In other words, there are a lot of creatures making perception checks, and many of them have a bonus big enough to have a decent chance of success, so the chance of it going unnoticed for very long isn't very big. (I would also imagine that a creature with scent, such as a dog, would get a bonus to smelling smoke.)
Strong scents, such as smoke, can be detected at twice the normal range for scent (so anywhere from 30 to 120 feet away, no check required).