Can Damiel use Jacks ability to add a 1d10 to a craft check to recharge a card instead of discarding it. I'm a little confused on what cards you can play to help a recharge.
I don't think so. I think Damiel's power basically means he temporarily gets these two powers:
Arcane: Intelligence +3
Divine: Intelligence +3
That's how I've played it anyway.
This is actually a good question.
I assume you're talking about the ability that Damiel has that says that he gains the Arcane and Divine skills equal to his Craft skill when he has to banish a non-Attack spell (instead, he can make the check and try to recharge it).
The problem is what "equal to" means. Does it mean that the Arcane or Divine skill is now a Craft skill? Or does it just mean that the Arcane or Divine skill uses the same numbers as the Craft skill (Which is Intelligence +3)?
My interpretation is that it is the latter, not the former. You set the Arcane and Divine skills to the same as your Craft skill, but it's not a Craft check, it's an Arcane or Divine check.
It's probably confusing and my opinion is that it should probably just say Damiel gains "Arcane and Divine: Intelligence +3", even if it's slightly less flavourful.
I was referring to his craft check when he uses one of his bombs and can discard another card to add his craft die. He can roll his craft die to recharge the item instead of discarding it.
Ah.... No, Jack doesn't help with that. You get to add your Craft skill, but it isn't a Craft check. Jack only helps with Craft checks.
For your combat check, banish this card to use your Dexterity or Ranged Skill + 2d6. You may additionall discard another card to add your Craft skill; after playing that card, succceed at a Craft 9 check to recharge that card instead of discarding it.
The first half of this card describes a combat check, not a craft check, which you can additionally add your craft skill to (Intelligence die + craft skill, in my case since I maxed out Int, +1d10+7). It's still a combat check though, so Jack cannot contribute.
The second half deals with making a Craft 9 check to recharge a card. Jack can help with this, which is nice since the higher level bombs require increasingly difficult craft checks to recharge the additional item. On a strategic note, ever since I took Damiel's Grenadier power of "when you succeed at a craft check..." I opted to stick with lower level bombs, because they allow me a higher chance of succeeding at a craft check, and if I'm adding my craft skill that monster is usually defeated handily.
Thanks Pyrocat. The second half is what I was talking about. Sorry my post was so confusing.
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Wow, I never thought of it adding the Craft trait and making it a Craft check, that's insanely powerful. I'm definitely going to try switching a couple of my allies out.
Also, the combat check and recharge are separate steps, so you could use Jack on both.
Damiel's power has been reworded / clarified. No change in how it works, but it now specifies that it applies to checks relating to that card. So, any checks that card tells you to make, and nothing more.
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The Skull & Shackles rules state on page 12:"Any skills you use are added as traits to the check."So discarding the other card makes the check a Dexterity, Ranged, Craft, Combat check.
And since it is a Craft check you can reveal Jack Scrimshaw to add another 1d10 to it.
The full context of those rules:
Each check to defeat or acquire a card lists one or more skills; you may choose any of the listed skills for your check. For example, if a check lists Dexterity, Disable, Strength, and Melee, you may use any one of those skills to attempt your check. Even if your character doesn't have any of those skills listed for a check, you can still attempt the check, but your die is a d4. Any skills you use are added as traits to the check. (For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you use your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee trait are added to the check.)
This rule seems to only concern skills listed under the check to defeat. And even if you could add the trait "craft" to a combat check, that wouldn't necessarily make it a craft check, which is what Jack helps with.
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My above post initially agreed with you Pyrocat, but as I keep rereading that section of the rules, it really doesn't specify at all. The cards adds your craft skill, you are using your craft skill, that makes it a craft check.
Also, yes, if a trait is on a check it is that kind of check, always. If you play a bomb that uses your Dex skill, and the bomb has a trait, you are now making a check of that trait.
Where does it say that adding a trait to a check makes it a check against that trait?
edit: despite playing Damiel, I keep finding myself arguing against making him more powerful in these threads. Go figure.
Where does it say that adding a trait to a check makes it a check against that trait?
"Any skills you use are added as traits to the check."
I always assumed that you could use Skrimshaw to add to your combat your combat totals when using a bomb.
Well, this is quite interesting. I've played this that the bomb is not a Craft check, and therefore Jack Skrimshaw can't add to it.
Determine which skill you're using. Any skills you use are added as traits to the check.
That rule being quoted comes in the context of determining which skill you are using for the check. I don't think the Craft add-on from the bomb is part of determining the skill. I think it is a better version of the same kind of power we've seen on the Longbow or the Great Axe, which let you add your Strength die, making the weapon better or worse for different characters. In the case of the bomb, you don't just get your die, you get all the bonuses too. But I don't think that makes it a Craft check.
That's my opinion of course.
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Interesting.
Well, this is quite interesting. I've played this that the bomb is not a Craft check, and therefore Jack Skrimshaw can't add to it.
Determine which skill you're using. Any skills you use are added as traits to the check.That rule being quoted comes in the context of determining which skill you are using for the check. I don't think the Craft add-on from the bomb is part of determining the skill. I think it is a better version of the same kind of power we've seen on the Longbow or the Great Axe, which let you add your Strength die, making the weapon better or worse for different characters. In the case of the bomb, you don't just get your die, you get all the bonuses too. But I don't think that makes it a Craft check.
That's my opinion of course.
Interesting take, Hawkmoon. The one thing I would add is that it's not just a die and bonuses, it's the skill. And I thought adding skills always added traits. But I would love to hear if I am wrong.
Where does it say that adding a trait to a check makes it a check against that trait?"Any skills you use are added as traits to the check."
But that adds the trait to the check, it doesn't change what type of check it is. So your combat check now includes the craft trait, it's still a combat check, not a craft check. When you play an attack spell that has the divine trait, the divine trait gets added to your check, but you're not suddenly making a divine check.
If it did add the Craft trait to the check then any card that affected a Craft check would affect the check now. That is similar to a card that can add to a "Melee check." A "Melee check" exists either because you gave the Melee trait to the check via the skill you used or via a card you played.
That much I'm sure of. If the bomb's power to add your Craft skill gives the check the Craft trait, then Jack Scrimshaw helps that check. I just don't personally think it does add the Craft trait.
I don't doubt you, but can you point out where in the rules it specifies that? We haven't been playing that way.
For example our group threw out the Sniper Goggles, which gives a bonus to Ranged Combat checks, because none of us had the Ranged skill. When we were using guns (that all have the ranged trait) it specifies to use your "Dexterity or Ranged skill". Since we didn't have Ranged we picked Dex, and thus we were using our Dexterity skill for our Combat Check. If all the traits of cards used become not only added to the check, but indeed become your check, then I could've been making Ranged Combat checks that whole time.
Play Cards and Use Powers That Affect Your Check (Optional). ...Some cards and powers affect only specific types of checks, such as Dexterity checks, Acrobatics checks, or non-combat checks. If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check. For example, if you’re using the Arcane skill on a combat check, and your character card says that your Arcane skill is Intelligence +2, the check counts as both a combat Arcane check and a combat Intelligence check. Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you’re attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.
*the sound of various expletives being shouted into the void*
edit: also thanks
Yeah. I was trying to think of something to type with it to soften the blow, especially since the example is for a Ranged combat check. But I figured it was best to just "rip the band-aid off" so to speak.
If it helps, you can tell your group that I said it is ok for you to swap out an item for those Sniper Goggles.
So, here's my interpretation:
You cannot use Jack to help recharge a spell because it is not a Craft check (it is an Arcane or Divine check).
Noxious Bomb would allow you to make your Combat check also a Craft check, which Jack could then help out on. However, this only applies to Combat checks. Jack could also help out on recharging the card you discarded to Noxious Bomb. No matter what, you do not get to apply the Craft skill to your recharge check for spells, because you have no way of adding that skill to that check.
Hm, this is interesting indeed, this whole "add your X skill" because the majority of examples use the X skill instead of adding it.
I would say "Adding your X skill" would not count as using that skill, so discarding an extra card to Noxious Bomb would not add the Craft trait.
I wonder if that actually breaks anything.
By the rules as written, I believe that would indeed be possible. Noxious Bomb lets you add your Craft skill. Using any skill also adds its traits, and the traits on a check determine what type of check it is (aka it'd be a Dexterity Ranged Combat Craft check). Thus, Potion of Lucubration would work to automatically succeed at the check.
That being said, I'm like 95% sure that this was not the intent of Noxious Bomb. I can see a FAQ entry somehow rewording Noxious Bomb so that it only gives you the Craft die as well as any skill bonus you'd have as opposed to actually letting you use the skill (thus avoiding making the combat check also a craft check). Either that or a ruling that adding a skill doesn't actually count as using that skill for the purpose of determining what traits the check has and therefore what type of check it is.
Interesting.
Mark my word : when not-this-Mike's answers are down to a single word, the thread is worth following as one of your favorites.
Thus, Potion of Lucubration would work to automatically succeed at the check.Nay, you already played an item on the Combat check (the bomb) so cannot play Potion Of Lucubration. I have already thought of that.
Lucubration doesn't have to be played by the same character. It could be used by anyone at the location.
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Yea it definitely breaks things, especially in conjunction with Damiel.
I think the simplest resolution, though I don't know the right wording, would be to clarify that only the "primary" skill is added as a trait. So, it would be a Dex / Ranged check, but adding your Craft skill wouldn't make it a Craft check. How to word it for an FAQ, I don't know, but I think that's all it is.
As written, it's a Craft check. To me though, it seems obvious that the intent is that it is not.
Since the rules already say that skills you are "using" get added as traits, I think the simplest thing would be to leave that alone and add a sentence somewhere to the effect of "If a power lets you add a skill to a check, do not add that skill as a trait."
That sets up this formula:
Use = trait
Add = no trait
If they wanted Noxious Bomb to not get the Craft trait from the additional discard, then it would stay as is. If they wanted it to get the Craft trait (and Intelligence trait for Damiel), they could change it to "You may additionally discard another card to also use your Craft skill." or some such verbiage.
I'll also add this to support the case that it doesn't have the Craft trait:
As part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use.
It seems pretty clear that you are only supposed to use one skill. And only skills you are using count as traits. I think the add part of the bomb's power is pretty clearly not meant to give it the trait. I think you can also see that from the crazy combination that become possible, like automatically succeeding at a combat check.
Again, just my opinion.
Since the rules already say that skills you are "using" get added as traits, I think the simplest thing would be to leave that alone and add a sentence somewhere to the effect of "If a power lets you add a skill to a check, do not add that skill as a trait."
That sets up this formula:
Use = trait
Add = no traitIf they wanted Noxious Bomb to not get the Craft trait from the additional discard, then it would stay as is. If they wanted it to get the Craft trait (and Intelligence trait for Damiel), they could change it to "You may additionally discard another card to also use your Craft skill." or some such verbiage.
I'll also add this to support the case that it doesn't have the Craft trait:
As part of this action, you may play only 1 card or use only 1 power that defines the skill you are going to use.It seems pretty clear that you are only supposed to use one skill. And only skills you are using count as traits. I think the add part of the bomb's power is pretty clearly not meant to give it the trait. I think you can also see that from the crazy combination that become possible, like automatically succeeding at a combat check.
Again, just my opinion.
I think that this language presents an additional problem, because use and add have meanings beyond the key word. When you 'use" a skill for a check, those dice replace whatever else you would otherwise use for the check. When you "add" a skill to the check, you are supplementing your base die pool. The distinction between the two of those shouldn't necessarily be tied to to keywords, should it?
At the very least, the language you proposed should read
"You may additionally discard another card to also use add your Craft skill and the Craft trait."
It looks like Andrew, hawkmoon and I agree on it :)
I thought of a non-obvious case about that "traits determine the type of check" as well, Blessings all have the Divine trait so all checks to obtain Blessings are Divine checks even if you don't use the Divine skill to get the blessing. This may have unintended side effects.
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Well, no. You don't add traits of a card you're encountering. It would be a check against a card with the Divine trait, but I don't see any reading of the rules that would call it a Divine check if you aren't using your Divine skill.
If that were the case, encountering any card with a Swashbuckling trait would give Jirelle rerolls.
Argh, I keep forgetting that. You're right.
I never used Jack to add 1D10 to the combat check because it's a COMBAT check not a CRAFT check. I will use him to try to recharge the card though.
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Desant, do keep in mind that while it isn't a Craft check, it is still more than just a Combat check. Using your Ranged means it's also a Ranged and Dexterity check. Using a potion bomb also makes it an Alchemical check, as well as any other traits on that potion. The type of check is not limit to the word listed in the Check to Defeat / Acquire.
By the way. Should this rules discussion be in a new thread?
Keep it here, please.
It seems pretty clear that you are only supposed to use one skill."Any skills you use are added as traits to the check."It is obvious that you can use more than one skill, Hawkmoon.
Normally you use a combination like Melee and Strength or Wisdom and Divine but you use more than one on most checks.
Otherwise you could not add certain powers to specialised skills. You would have to decide if you make a Perception check with your character's Perception bonus or add the power of a Headband Of Inspired Wisdom.Although the rules text could need an overhaul I guess the problem lies with card that add another skill. So far I can tell you of five cards that do this. Noxious Bomb, Alchemist's Fire, Liquid Ice, Alkali Flask (and maybe one or two more from the array of bombs in The Price Of Infamy and From Hell's Heart) and the Sword Cane Pistol +2.
With most character you would simply take your Dex die + Ranged bonus + your Skill Feats but Merisiel (and other Rogues) add twice their Skill feats when burying the Card. Compared to the multiple dice other Firearms can give you that is not that much, but If you somehow combine Vika the Blacksmith with the Sword Cane Pistol and Boots of Elvenkind and/or Cloak of Elvenkind and some Healing you break every combat check there is.
Fair enough. To be clearer I should have said "two unrelated skills" or something like that. Note the the "attempting a check" sequence tells you to determine the skill, not skills, you are using. So there is some assumption there that the skill is much more singular. When you go through the sequence, you definitely determine that you are using 1 skill. It might be Ranged, which happens to incorporate your Dexterity skill, but you are determining that your are using Range.
This is definitely an interesting discussion.
I guess I'm really not being clear with my thoughts. I'm NOT saying that if you determine to use Ranged and you have Ranged: Dexterity + 1 that it isn't a dexterity check. It is a dexterity check. I've got to get some sleep, but I look forward to discussing more in the morning.
As you add traits to a check, the check becomes something with multiple adjectives. These are needed to add the different ways combat can occur, in particular. Using a Warhammer +1 makes the check a Strength Melee Bludgeoning Magic check. Then cards like Poog can add the Fire trait, etc. So as the game develops and more traits can possibly be added to a combat check, some unexpected combos can show up.
In the home brew section, there's a Geomancer who has an innate ability like Seoni to cast an Attack spell but based on her Fortitude skill. So the Amulet of Fortitude can be recharged to allow an auto-pass on her combat. I dunno, I don't think that's too OP.
I must admit you lost me somewhere... I had the basic understanding, long ago, that
1) At any time you are only attempting ONE check using ONE skill to which you may have added MANY traits and to which you may (independently) have added MANY dice adjustement.
2) Unless it is a combat check, the skill to be used for the check is fixed by the card/power requesting the check. In the case of a combat check, the skill to be used is STR or MELEE (your choice), unless you play a card saying "for your combat check" and you can only play one such card.
3) The added traits are added from both cards/powers played during the "determine the skill to be used" step and from cards/powers played during the "affect the check" step. This is done in order of cards/powers played, meaning you can potentially add a trait that lets you play another card/power that adds more traits, and so on.
4) The added dice adjustement are added from both cards/powers played during the "determine the skill to be used" step and from cards/powers played during the "affect the check" step. This is done in order of cards/powers played, meaning you can potentially add a trait that lets you play another card/power that adds an adjustement.
Now the key point is : the adjustement may come from a formula involving presence/absence of a trait on the check or value of a specific skill you have (e. g. "play that card to add your arcane skill to..."), it may be confusing but in that case that formula ONLY adjust the dice value rolled, it NEVER changes the skill to be used nor add or remove a trait.
Am I wrong?
Now for the not-this-Mike quizz of the day : if I play a blessing on a check, do I had the Divine trait on that check? You have 10 seconds. :-)
Right on 1 and 2. For 3, only other cards that say "add the x trait" actually add that trait. So if you play a blessing on a check, you don't get to add Divine. 4 I think is right, not sure.
Here's an example. Lini has to do a Combat check. She doesn't have Melee on her card but she wants to play Soldier that adds a d4 (I think) to her Melee check. She also wants to discard to change her Strength to a d10. Fortunately, Valeros gave her a mace. So she can use that for her Combat check. Which adds all its traits, including Melee. So now it's a Strength and Melee (and others) check and she can use the Soldier.
tl; dr I think that a Combat check could also be a Craft check and Jack Scrimshaw becomes very helpful.
Right on 1 and 2. For 3, only other cards that say "add the x trait" actually add that trait. So if you play a blessing on a check, you don't get to add Divine. 4 I think is right, not sure.
Here's an example. Lini has to do a Combat check. She doesn't have Melee on her card but she wants to play Soldier that adds a d4 (I think) to her Melee check. She also wants to discard to change her Strength to a d10. Fortunately, Valeros gave her a mace. So she can use that for her Combat check. Which adds all its traits, including Melee. So now it's a Strength and Melee (and others) check and she can use the Soldier.
tl; dr I think that a Combat check could also be a Craft check and Jack Scrimshaw becomes very helpful.
You don't need a weapon to make your combat check a melee check
"Most monsters and some barriers call for a combat check. Weapons
and many other cards that can be used during combat generally tell
you what skill to use when you attempt a combat check; if you aren’t
playing one of those cards, you must use your Strength or Melee skill."
True, Lini could choose Melee and get a d4. That's why I added the part about the discard to get a d10 for Strength. If she doesn't have a weapon, then it wouldn't be a Melee check, if she used her d10 in Strength.
Let's just say Jacks card says add a 1D10 to any non combat craft check :)