Hydra Traits (Ex) A hydra can be killed by severing all of its heads or slaying its body. Any attack that is not an attempt to sever a head affects the body, including area attacks or attacks that cause piercing or bludgeoning damage. To sever a head, an opponent must make a sunder attempt with a slashing weapon targeting a head. A head is considered a separate weapon with hardness 0 and hit points equal to the hydra's HD. To sever a head, an opponent must inflict enough damage to reduce the head's hit points to 0 or less. Severing a head deals damage to the hydra's body equal to the hydra's current HD. A hydra can't attack with a severed head, but takes no other penalties.
Regenerate Head (Ex) When a hydra's head is destroyed, two heads regrow in 1d4 rounds. A hydra cannot have more than twice its original number of heads at any one time. To prevent new heads from growing, at least 5 points of acid or fire damage must be dealt to the stump (a touch attack to hit) before they appear. Acid or fire damage from area attacks can affect stumps and the body simultaneously. A hydra doesn't die from losing its heads until all are cut off and the stumps seared by acid or fire.
Why in the world would anyone do this? Nothing else in the game allows you to sunder a creature's natural weapons, so without a knowledge check or metagaming this knowledge, why would cause someone to suddenly attempt it on a hydra? Because anyone who knows about the mythical hydra knows one thing about them: don't cut off their heads! If you make the knowledge check, why would you do it, knowing that it will create more heads? Since there are no called shots in Pathfinder, a party that doesn't know this information is attacking it as a normal monster, unless the GM says "Are you targeting the heads for a sunder?" At which point, players would say "Why is the GM asking that? That doesn't even make sense with everything else I know about Pathfinder."
At CR4, it feels like a speed bump. If it gets the drop on a party, it might take someone down, but what 4th level party can't burn down 50hp in a single round? With that +1 init, I would imagine most of the time it doesn't even get a turn. If I left it as it was in the module (made for 9th level PCs), it wouldn't have outlived the first player's turn.
When I ran it in my last session (Legacy of Fire Book 4), I took a page from 5th Edition D&D, which says that doing 25 points of damage in one attack will sever a head. I also used the Advanced template, added some HD (and heads), gave it max HP, and increased its size. I felt that with those modifications, it was an interesting fight. It hurt the party, but not too badly. I think it hit about half the time and lasted 3 rounds.
Does anyone else find the hydra to be a jarring disjunction from the rest of Pathfinder?
Hydra 47 hit points, 5 heads at 5 hit points each. If your party has high to hit bonuses but low damage then you can take each head in the first round and kill the beast flat out.
Each head taken out takes 1 to 4 rounds to come back and reduces the fast healing of the beast in the mean time making it easier to kill short term while also reducing its damage output.
This can be especially attractive if the beast ambushed your party and pounced in on a charge and given a few rounds of breathing space you know you have it easily but you need to buy the few rounds of slow down first.
Technically you would have (on average) 2 rounds to take each of the 5 heads before it should double up.
Also each time you take a head off you deal 5 damage to the hydra body too. So even if the heads come back you could kill the beast by simply cutting off more heads then its fast healing can handle.
If in the first round you cut off three heads you have dealt 15 damage to the body, reduced it to 2 attacks and reduced its fast healing to 2.
As far as being "weird" there are a few other creatures with body part sundering weaknesses. Off the top of my head I can think of one dragon with the issue on its tail.
Also it's more like you a sundering a weapon as per the description, and there are plenty of creatures out there with weapons that can be sundered.
At the end of the day the hydra rewards multiple attack, low damage characters, and offers a secondary kill method that has advantages (deals damage to the body, reduces attacks and fast healing, requires *at first* less damage to finish the beast off) and disadvantages (could lead to more attacks and more fast healing long term if you take too long, requires sundering which is a bit harder than hitting its AC).
Still need to sear the stumps.
Not to kill it. It specifically states all you have to do is sever all the heads to kill it. Searing the stumps is useful, but not mandatory for its death from headlessness.
EDIT:
A hydra can be killed by severing all of its heads or slaying its body.
Nothing about them having to be seared. If it has no heads at any point it dies.
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I hate hydras as written. Way too easy to kill. They're supposed to be nearly epic. In mythology, there was only ONE hydra and it took a demigod to kill it (and even Hercules couldn't do it without an assistant and the use of Athena's magical sword, clearly an artifact in its own right).
Now in recent editions, hydras are a joke. CR 4? Really? Seriously???
Kill it by dealing a pathetic 47 HP to the body (half a dozen decent arrows, spears, thrown axes, whatever). Or have the fighter charge it (only one AoO) and Vital Strike it while the rogue fires a couple Rapid Shots and the mage adds a couple Magic Missiles - might kill it in one round.
Or just deliberately deal 5 HP damage to each head in your first 5 attacks and it dies. Burn the stumps with a single Burning Hands spell and collect your XP.
Pathetic.
I suggest a few tweaks. (Perhaps not appropriate for a rules question forum since this is house rules, or at least a custom monster, but others have already responded to the OP's rules question)
For one, Give it 8 HD instead of 5. This would be 72 HP for the body. Increasing the HD also increases the CR which makes it feel a little more legendary.
Next, double the HP of the heads, which also means it takes 10 HP of fire or acid damage to prevent the regeneration.
Next, let the hydra use its heads against all attacks like a Mirror Image spell - it holds its heads (and long serpentine necks) low and in front of its delicate body, writhing and flailing around, so that any attacks aimed at the body have a chance to hit a head instead. Just like Mirror Image, count the number of heads and add 1 for the body, then roll a die with that many sides, on a ONE you hit the body, anything else, you hit a head. this means heads could, and probably will, be damaged - which means we could use the rule quoted by the OP.
Next, give its body Fast Healing 5+X where X is the number of heads. Yes, this means that the fast healing might increase as it regenerates extra heads.
Next, add some decent poison to its bites - the mythological Hydra had such nasty poison that even stepping in a drop that spilled on the ground could kill a man. I don't recommend going that lethal, but a little ordinary poison is not out of type for a hydra. This should do nicely (it's weak, but with so many possible bite attacks, it could quickly turn into something with such a high DC and duration that it could be very lethal): Bite—injury; save DC 10+CON+base number of heads; frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; effect 1d2 Constitution damage; cure 2 consecutive saves. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Finally, give EACH HEAD the use of Combat Reflexes so every head can make 2 AoOs every round, and let them act independently so that anyone charging the body could probably provoke multiple heads.
Now make it CR 10 (with 5 heads) or higher with more heads.
Problem is, a 10th level group can handle this quite easily too, so maybe add in a couple extra tricks. Like let it spit its venom as a ranged touch attack, or let it have a burst of energy once every 1d4 rounds where it can move at triple its normal speed (allowing it to move 60' or even 120' with a charge and still Pounce for a full set of bites on some unsuspecting victim).
That's a hydra that would get Hercules' attention...
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For the 12 headed hydra cutting off a head deals 12 damage to the body, so cutting off 6 heads will deal 72 damage to the body which has 126 hit points and reduce it's attacks by 6 and also reduce its fast healing by 6 for at least 1 round.
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People are forgetting that at cr 4 a creature is supposed to be an easy fight for a party of 4 characters that aren't even moderately optimized.
Yes it's easy -- it's supposed to be. It is a speed bump. If you want to challenge that 4th level party send 7 or 8 headed hydra.
If you want the mythic hydra then do that, but these are different beasts. I could just as easily complain about the Fey not meeting their mythic roots, or the dragons or any other number of beasts.
To do so is simply madness. This is not the Grecian hydra -- this is the CR variant hydra of pathfinder.
ALSO -- flagged for wrong forum (this is not a rules question, this is a "how do you feel about (x)" thread, which is general discussion).
Problem is, a 10th level group can handle this quite easily too
That's the point. A CR 10 fight is easy for a APL 10 party. Either check that it consumes 25% of the PC's daily resources or match it against a APL 6 party.
People are forgetting that at cr 4 a creature is supposed to be an easy fight for a party of 4 characters that aren't even moderately optimized.
Yes it's easy -- it's supposed to be. It is a speed bump. If you want to challenge that 4th level party send 7 or 8 headed hydra.
I disagree. "speed bump" is too weak.
The CRB defines "easy" as APL-1. Encounters that are APL-0 are "average". You should be able to handle about 4 "average" encounters in a game day.
A proper challenge for a 4-person group at 4th level would consume about 1/4 of their daily resources. That seems like more than a speed bump. I don't think the RAW hydra would consume even 1/10 of a 4th level party's resources unless it got some major help from the terrain or environment (ambush, surprise, or some other advantage).
There are very few solo CR4 encounters that can be taken out by dealing a mere 25 HP of damage.
Even if we disagree on the hydra's appropriate CR, still, the RAW hydra falls very far short of the legendary hydra of mythology, and THAT is my biggest complaint with the hydra.
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1/4 of their daily resources depends on how the hydra comes at them.
It has pounce so closing with the preferred target isn't an issue, and it has 5 attacks -- a large number for a creature of its CR, with a good bonus (the beastiary suggests that the high side of an attack bonus for a CR 4 monster is +6 -- exactly what the hydra has on all its attacks). It has above average hit points for its CR and average AC. It's damage is a bit low per hit at an average of 7 points, and its save throws trend high.
It has reach to go with its pounce and combat reflexes.
Now if the party has time to pre-buff, knows what it is about to face and comes at it? Yeah it'll get mopped. However if it ambushes the party it's going to hurt them, and even if it doesn't and it's a 'wild weasel' encounter where both sides stumble on each other the higher has what it needs to hurt a four level party some.
A CR equivalent is supposed to eat up about 1/5 of resources. We are looking at about 15~24 hit points and maybe 2 spells. Which is about right for a 4th level party of 15 point buy non-optimized characters.
Also it's not just an easy 25 hit points. It's 25 hit points at the cost of AoO's for most characters, at a higher fail chance (DC 21 compared to AC 15).
If we have an optimized party or change the baseline equation then of course it will seem weaker because the party is stronger.
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I agree it's not the mythological hydra -- that's because it is not the mythological hydra -- it's the default hydra -- which exists in pathfinder as a regular magical beast.
Again if you want something different then by all means slap some templates on the beast and have at them, but you are asking a fish to climb a tree and judging it by its inability to do so.
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The 3.5 hydra was really nice. If there was an attack of opportunity all the heads attacked and IIRC all the heads attacked as a standard action also.
The head sundering was in 3.5 also, and it is there because the mythological version was killed by cutting its head off.
PS: I do agree that they are too weak in PF, and that includes the higher CR versions.
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It's not the hydra, it's a hydra.
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A hydra can pounce for an average of 37 damage if all attacks hit. A level 4 character with low AC could be killed outright. In water it can swim away and fast-heal back to full health in a few rounds. Compared to some other CR4 creatures, like the grizzly bear, it seems fairly dangerous.
Well cluck a puck.
Which means it does take 10 points of damage to finish a head off, 5 slashing to take it off 5 to sear it. Awfully rude of them to divide that crap up.
Hey DM_Blake -- got your wish. Still as mentioned a single spell or two should handle the stumps, so 10 each or 5 each and simultaneously hitting the stumps with 5 points of fire damage from say, burning hands.
Sooo does a witch's Evil Eye Hex work on the whole Hyrda or just a single Head? I have read the Hydra stats and completely agree it's under-whelming, planning on upping it's size as an encounter for a mostly lvl 5 party of 7. Wanting to scale it to be an EC+1 encounter.
One creature one hex.
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Now if the party has time to pre-buff, knows what it is about to face and comes at it? Yeah it'll get mopped. However if it ambushes the party it's going to hurt them, and even if it doesn't and it's a 'wild weasel' encounter where both sides stumble on each other the higher has what it needs to hurt a four level party some.
I agree that if it got the drop on a party, it could potentially do some harm, if it got the right target and got lucky on rolls. But a huge creature with a +1 init and no stealth bonus isn't going to get the drop on much, especially considering how many people max Perception. In an ambush, I wouldn't expect more than 1 PC to be surprised.
I'm not arguing with your numbers. My principal objection is the sunder mechanic for this monster in particular. I'm not familiar with the other monster you cite, so this one feels especially out of place.
For the curious, here is the mega-hydra I used to challenge my 9th level party. Since I knew it was the only encounter they'd have for a while I went big. Advanced and Size Increase were added in Hero Lab, and I chose two more feats.
Hydra (9G) CR 9
XP 6,400
Advanced hydra (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, 178)
N Gargantuan magical beast
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Perception +14
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 9, flat-footed 22 (+3 Dex, +16 natural, -4 size)
hp 162 (9d10+72); fast healing, fast healing 9
Fort +14, Ref +11, Will +7
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft., swim 20 ft.
Melee 9 bites +16 (2d6+10/19-20)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks pounce
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Statistics
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Str 30, Dex 16, Con 26, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 13
Base Atk +9; CMB +23; CMD 36 (can't be tripped)
Feats Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (bite), Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (bite)
Skills Acrobatics +3 (-1 to jump), Perception +14, Swim +23; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception
SQ hydra traits, regenerate head
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Special Abilities
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Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Fast Healing (Ex) Fast healing is equal to current number of heads, and heals only body.
Fast Healing 9 (Ex) Heal damage every round unless you are killed.
Hydra Traits (Ex)
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Regenerate Head (Ex) When head is severed, 2 more grow in d4 rds unless cauterize with 5 fire/acid dam.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Swimming (20 feet) You have a Swim speed.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
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Why in the world would anyone do this? Nothing else in the game allows you to sunder a creature's natural weapons...
That's actually not true. Several monsters have body parts that can be attacked and destroyed w/o taking from the main body's pool of hit points.
Off the top of my head:
Anything with swallow whole
several flavors of tentacle monster
As for why does the ability exist from a meta standpoint (aside of course from being a sacred cow): The hydra traits can be identified on a successful knowledge check to identify the critter. The PC might learn that the hydra can (potentially) be shortcutted to death by getting all the heads severed at once.
3.0 and 2nd edition did not have called shots either, not as core rules anyway.
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Hydra is one of my favorite monsters as written. This is because it's one of the only low CR huge creatures, and I like how sundering heads is a risky maneuver with a big pay off. The best thing about hydras is how versatile they are! Need it to just be more dangerous? Add more heads, make it a pyrohydra, add the advance template, or make it gargantuan! As with all creatures what really makes them shine is how they are presented by the GM.
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Now if the party has time to pre-buff, knows what it is about to face and comes at it? Yeah it'll get mopped. However if it ambushes the party it's going to hurt them, and even if it doesn't and it's a 'wild weasel' encounter where both sides stumble on each other the higher has what it needs to hurt a four level party some.
I agree that if it got the drop on a party, it could potentially do some harm, if it got the right target and got lucky on rolls. But a huge creature with a +1 init and no stealth bonus isn't going to get the drop on much, especially considering how many people max Perception. In an ambush, I wouldn't expect more than 1 PC to be surprised.
I'm not arguing with your numbers. My principal objection is the sunder mechanic for this monster in particular. I'm not familiar with the other monster you cite, so this one feels especially out of place.
For the curious, here is the mega-hydra I used to challenge my 9th level party. Since I knew it was the only encounter they'd have for a while I went big. Advanced and Size Increase were added in Hero Lab, and I chose two more feats.
** spoiler omitted **...
Again which is fine -- against a more optimized party, which is not what the original pathfinder monsters are supposed to challenge.
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Hydra is one of my favorite monsters as written. This is because it's one of the only low CR huge creatures, and I like how sundering heads is a risky maneuver with a big pay off. The best thing about hydras is how versatile they are! Need it to just be more dangerous? Add more heads, make it a pyrohydra, add the advance template, or make it gargantuan! As with all creatures what really makes them shine is how they are presented by the GM.
I feel like this is almost true for any creature imagine a two headed advanced giant pyro T- REX :P
on another note I like that it has a swim speed making it a perfect on a swamp / small bridge fight
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The main thing i dont like about hydras is that they are the only thing in the entire game that allows you to make called shots to a specific body part.
That bugs me so much that I never used a hydra in any of my games.
I get that they didn't want to miss out on the hydra's iconic ability, but the entire game is built in a way where this just creates this complete break from the rules; on the one hand hit points are supposed to be this abstract thing that is supposed to represent how long a character or creature can shake of debilitating hits, that would sever limbs and/or kill/incapacitate them, on the other hand here's the hydra, get choppin'!
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I get that they didn't want to miss out on the hydra's iconic ability, but the entire game is built in a way where this just creates this complete break from the rules...
That's kind of good though; an epic monster (whether the hydra qualifies for this is debatable, fair enough) should be a matter of forgetting everything you know and adapting to a new way of dealing with an unfamiliar foe.
It would have been nicer if dealing with the heads was a more efficient way of killing it, since that's the "creative solution".
I agree that if it got the drop on a party, it could potentially do some harm, if it got the right target and got lucky on rolls. But a huge creature with a +1 init and no stealth bonus isn't going to get the drop on much, especially considering how many people max Perception. In an ambush, I wouldn't expect more than 1 PC to be surprised.Now if the party has time to pre-buff, knows what it is about to face and comes at it? Yeah it'll get mopped. However if it ambushes the party it's going to hurt them, and even if it doesn't and it's a 'wild weasel' encounter where both sides stumble on each other the higher has what it needs to hurt a four level party some.
It's actually not as hard as it might seem at first for a hydra to get a decent chance at getting the drop on a party, in its natural terrain. Basically the hydra needs to do that crocodile thing where it scoots up to shore underwater and lunges out at the antelope (the PCs) drinking from the waterhole.
Creatures underwater get improved cover vs. creatures on land, which means the hydra has an opportunity to use stealth without having to find a really big piece of cover to hide behind, and with +10 on the skill, to boot.
In addition murky water gives visibility of only d8x10 feet, which means the hydra can get pretty close on approach before having to roll stealth - potentially close enough to attack in a surprise round without trouble.
It's still a longshot to get all the way up into melee distance without tipping someone off, but it can be sufficient to get the hydra into pounce range without being spotted, which makes it reasonably dangerous despite the 20 foot speed (which IMO is the main reason why it often sucks otherwise.) And if the party DOES spot it, it's at least got the protection of being underwater against the initial round of attacks, which is significant.
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I heard a fluff once (don't remember where) that there was once only a single Hydra. The one which Hercules killed. However, while the body of the Hydra died, each drop of blood made as Hercules severed its heads eventually grew up to become the hydras of today.
But - as a CR4 monster - it's actually on the mean end of things. CR4 isn't supposed to be very scary. It could beat the crap out of an Owlbear - and I've never heard any complain that it's too weak for CR4. (Though I do like the heads = mirror image idea, though perhaps make the body count for 2 or 3 chances.)
Since there are no called shots in Pathfinder, a party that doesn't know this information is attacking it as a normal monster, unless the GM says "Are you targeting the heads for a sunder?" At which point, players would say "Why is the GM asking that? That doesn't even make sense with everything else I know about Pathfinder."
A million times over this! Either called shots are a thing and have a consistent way they work or they aren't. Folding faux called shot rules into monster stats but only against this specific monster drives me nuts. Why can I server a hydra's head in one blow but not that of a giant snake, or a young dragon? Obviously because severing a hydra's head is kind of a bad thing where either of the others would mean you win... still that's no excuse for the complete lack of consistency.
I've ranted about the Hydra on more than one occasion (not on this message board mind you but IRL). I'm so glad to see someone else on the same page.
- Torger
Called Shots? No? No one?
Called Shots? No? No one?
While I could express an number of opinions regarding that subsystem (not a fan) the core annoyance remains. Even if it's in play severing a Hydras head is, for no good reason a different task altogether than severing anything (even an anatomically similar thing) else's head.
- Torger
I was mostly referring to the multiple different "THERE ARE NO CALLED SHOTS IN PATHFINDER!" statements. Whether you like (or even use*) them, is entirely up to you. It does not directly impact the hydra thing at all.
* They are an optional subsystem, after all.
But sundering weapons and even some natural weapons are a part of Pathfinder mechanics. It just so happens that Hydra heads are more like these special natural weapons than the typical 'head' of a monster.
Frankly, don't see the issue.
Picture a Hydra in your head. What in that visual makes you think that severing one of those heads would be functionally different than severing the head of any other serpentine type necked creature?
On what information is my fighter basing his decision to treat a hydras neck like busting a weapon?
Why does attempting to sever a Hydras head provoke an attack of opportunity (I don't have the improved sunder feat) when It's reasonable to presume that I've been attempting to sever heads (and often succeeding) for multiple adventures now without getting tagged for it?
Why does special training in the art of smashing weapons and armor (I've picked up improved sunder now) make me better at severing a head, but only the heads of this particular beast?
I'm not aware of any other instances when sunder is a viable tactic against natural weapons (doesn't mean there aren't any just means my knowledge isn't encyclopedic) but even if there are I have equal problems with them. Why can I sever a claw but not a monk's fist? Why can I sever a tentacle but not a tail? etc etc.
It's horribly inconsistent. That's my issue with it.
- Torger
I was mostly referring to the multiple different "THERE ARE NO CALLED SHOTS IN PATHFINDER!" statements. Whether you like (or even use*) them, is entirely up to you. It does not directly impact the hydra thing at all.
* They are an optional subsystem, after all.
I've never played in nor heard of a game run using that subsystem. I'm sure somewhere someone has but I also think it's pretty fair to not consider every optional subsystem that not a lot of people use to not be part of base pathfinder.
- Torger
I never said it was "base"? Just that it's part of Pathfinder. It's demonstrably part of Pathfinder. Hence.
EDIT: You may be reading subtext into my posts where there is none. My point starts and stops at the fact that there are, in fact, Called Shot rules as a part of Pathfinder. No more, no less. I make no judgement about the quality or presumed "base" part of those rules (in fact, they are explicitly, as I said, an optional sub-system). That is really all there is to what I was saying: a mild joke at the direct statements that there were no called shots in Pathfinder, when, in fact, there were called shots in Pathfinder.
Incidentally, that does not actually reflect poorly on anyone - it just means someone hadn't read those rules before. Which is fine. No one can be expected to have perfect system mastery with so many optional subsystems. It's one of the cool things about Pathfinder: you can modify it to make it yours.
EDIT 2: To be clear, I wasn't engaging in the Hydra conversation at all. That's explicitly a Sunder attempt, which is not a Called Shot. So, I wasn't engaging in the hydra thing at all. Just the fact that there are literally rules that are part of the greater Pathfinder rule system named "Called Shot". I otherwise found the conversation enlightening and would encourage it to continue as if my aside otherwise didn't exist. :)
Me? Personally? Or someone in a world where Hydras actually exist?
To my mind the answer shouldn't be different. But if it makes you feel better you in a world with hydras.
(a) personal experience, or (b) one of his wizard buddies who has knowledge arcana and gets a 14 or higher on the check.
So you agree then that to a normal thinking person who doesn't have that bizarre bit of knowledge it seems like a stupid thing to try?
Because in those previous encounters you were also stabbing, bashing, piercing, and generally slashing at those heads anytime you saw an opening to inflict damage, which is why those attacks didn't provoke AoOs. You can do the same thing with the Hydra, it just doesn't sever the heads. To sever the hydra heads specifically, you need to use your weapon in a fashion identical to sundering an object, which provokes unless you have a feat.
M'kay from where I'm standing this boils down to "because severing the heads functions like sundering a weapon." Which no one can argue with from a rules standpoint because it's 100% true in black and white. I reject the premise that it should function that way. Furthermore given the abstract nature of attacks and HPs why do you get to say that in previous combats I wasn't trying to cut off my opponents head every single time? That's right you can't because hit location is purposefully kept vague until suddenly in this one monster description they're not.
Because it so happens that that's how the anatomy of this magical beast is put together.
The idea that a beast, magical or otherwise either evolved or was created such that the skill required to sever it's neck is remarkably similar to the skill required to break weapons and armor. While at the same time being entirely different than the skill required to sever the necks of otherwise similar creatures is absurd to the point of not how I want my game to work.
Do I have to explain to you the physics behind magic missiles next?
This is an especially condescending and turd like answer. The existence of magic does not negate the need for consistency. Magic missiles work one way and do the same thing every time they're cast. They effect things the same way baring a couple effects that specifically counter them. If a monster entry stated "This monsters bulbous eye are especially susceptible to magic missiles and may be targeted as separate objects with HP of X. Destroying them in this manner causes blindness." Then we'd have something worth comparing.
For the record that would also be a poorly designed monster.
It's not too hard to find exceptions for just about any Pathfinder mechanic. I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it if I were you. ;)
There are other things that are also bad so this bad thing is fine is pretty much the worst argument ever.
- Torger
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The problem I have with the hydra is.. well.. it's dumb as a dog turd, and usually played dumb as a dog turd.
A hydra is a g**-d+#n vicious critter if it hits and submerges over and over, taking even a few rounds to regenerate body hp and multiply its heads, then Pounce starting movement from below the water's surface.
A hydra played away from the waterline better be a much stronger hydra, the CR4 version is better played in a favorable environment.
If you want a more dangerous hydra, either hit and run to regenerate, or have it take serious objection to the first yokel who chucks fire at him and do an overrun to the back line. Yeah, he's got 5 heads, he saw you do that, Fishstick-fingers. Now you're gonna wiggle a skid mark while it overruns the front line to eat you. Pounce+Overrun is valid in a single round if it makes that maneuver check.
What is pathetic is that a Huge creature has less strength than your average fighter.
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To the OP - Wayfinder #12 has a feat called Beast Breaker:
Beast Breaker (Combat)You have learned to weaken your foes by destroying
their armor and weapons, even then they are the hide and claws of dangerous monsters, like the giant scorpions and hetkoshu crocodiles in the Tripoint Arena at An (Osirion, Legacy of Pharaohs 39).Prerequisites: Int 13, Knowledge (any) 3 ranks, Improved Sunder.
Benefit: You can make a Sunder attempt against a creature’s natural armor or natural weapon. You must first use the appropriate Knowledge skill identify a monster’s abilities and weaknesses. Choose one of the following: the creature’s natural armor, one of the creature’s primary weapons, or one of the creature’s secondary weapons. Then make a sunder attempt as normal. Treat the hardness of the creature’s natural armor and secondary weapons as equal to its natural armor, and the hardness of its primary weapons as equal to its natural armor +5. If you successfully deal damage in excess of this effective hardness, the target’s natural armor or natural weapon gains the broken condition for 1d4 rounds. Further sundering broken natural armor or a broken natural weapon successfully adds an additional 1d4 rounds to the duration of the broken condition.
Special: If you have Greater Sunder, you also apply any damage to the natural armor or natural weapon to the creature.that allows you to sunder natural armor or weapons.
Not "official" but there you go. ;)
Hydra are really good skirmish monsters. You can dedicate an entire dungeon around a hydra that repeatedly sneaks up on the PCs, engages in combat for a round or two, and then retreats to heal and grow more heads. Any dungeon or location with lots of connected flooded areas are great for them, because they can retreat easily. If you're playing them as a monster that just runs up and full-attacks while tanking damage, you're doing it wrong.
GMing this critter is a nightmare.
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There are other things that are also bad so this bad thing is fine is pretty much the worst argument ever.'Bad' is such a subjective idea that it's useless for these discussions. I think swarms are 'bad'.
You were arguing that somehow the rules governing hydras were 'exceptional' and I was merely pointing out that this isn't a unique situation. In fact, whenever Pathfinder tries to fit a creature with a 'real' mythological heritage into the game system, you'll often end up with one-off situations.
For example, take the Jiang-Shi. It's got a piece of paper tacked to its head, which you can sunder, that gives it immunity to spell trigger and completion items. Not spell immunity like golems, not spell resistance, but immunity to trigger and completion items. Furthermore, it has a revulsion to cooked rice and a weakness to wooden weapons made from peach trees.
And you're complaining about sundering a hydra head?
It's about as 'bad' as being able to tell someone is casting a spell with no visual, audio, somatic, or material components and that you can attack them while doing so to disrupt the spell despite any apparent knowledge that doing so is effective or possible.
Heck even the completely mindless can do it.
There are other things that are also bad so this bad thing is fine is pretty much the worst argument ever.'Bad' is such a subjective idea that it's useless for these discussions. I think swarms are 'bad'.
You were arguing that somehow the rules governing hydras were 'exceptional' and I was merely pointing out that this isn't a unique situation. In fact, whenever Pathfinder tries to fit a creature with a 'real' mythological heritage into the game system, you'll often end up with one-off situations.
For example, take the Jiang-Shi. It's got a piece of paper tacked to its head, which you can sunder, that gives it immunity to spell trigger and completion items. Not spell immunity like golems, not spell resistance, but immunity to trigger and completion items. Furthermore, it has a revulsion to cooked rice and a weakness to wooden weapons made from peach trees.
And you're complaining about sundering a hydra head?
Swarms are bad, but that's another discussion. Fair enough though, bad is subjective.
Yes I'm complaining about the way in which the rules model severing a Hydra's heads. The possibility that there are other, more annoying inconsistencies in the rules in no way negates my dislike of this one and this one is the one being discussed.
And yes, they are exceptional, they're an exception to the understanding that hit location isn't specific. They're an exception to the understanding that you can't just sever a body part without fully depleting a creatures HP. Perhaps you're fine with those exceptions. I am not. Hit locations for all or hit locations for none I say.
Regarding the Jang-Shi, a piece of paper is not a body part it's an object. If any other creature had a piece of paper stuck to it's head you would be able to use the exact same rules to destroy it. No conflict with the game's internal logic there.
Immunity to spell completion/trigger items does initially strike me as an ability that doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm curious what if any lore the developers where drawing from in it's creation. That being said immunities to specific magical things is pretty well established in the rules, this is a super weird one and I'd want to know more about it but on it's face it doesn't break the internal consistency of the rules for me. YMMV though, and if it did for someone else I would totally get it.
Revulsion to cooked rice and a weakness to peach tree wooden weapons is no more strange than a vampires weakness to the sun and running water or a lycanthropes aversion to silver. They seem weirder to our more western sensibilities but that's fine. Monsters having strange weaknesses is fine, in fact I'd say encouraged especially if it's backed up with some good old school folklore. What's not ok to me is modeling those weaknesses in a way that completely clashes with the fundamental way the game works. If for instance there were a rule in it's stat block stating that as a ranged touch attack you could throw a rice ball down a Jang-Shi's throat causing (insert effect here), I would consider that broken in the same way. Unless I get to use ranged touch attacks to throw things down throats all the time there's no reason for this to be different.
- Torger
It's about as 'bad' as being able to tell someone is casting a spell with no visual, audio, somatic, or material components and that you can attack them while doing so to disrupt the spell despite any apparent knowledge that doing so is effective or possible.Heck even the completely mindless can do it.
I absolutely agree, it's that bad.
But that's not the badness were discussing right now and more importantly why does that badness negate this badness and make it pointless to talk about?
- Torger