| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I'm making this thread in regards to shield enhancements, making shields both armor and weapons, and the ramifications of what it all entails, as there are many differing viewpoints (on the boards, anyway) of what the rules tell us, and I'm looking to get to the bottom of it, once and for all. Even my viewpoint of the matter is far-fetched to say the least, but it certainly follows what the RAW gives, despite it being a 'loose' interpretation, but whether that's RAI and follows the rules 100% is debatable.
So to start, I'll list the important factors of my question and elaborate a little bit on what I'm looking for in each. From what I gather, there are 3 things that should be addressed about this concept: Cost Calculations, Hybridizing Requirements, and Enhancement Limitations. The first seems simple enough, but the other 2 are significantly more difficult, but I'll tackle them all anyway.
How exactly does one calculate the cost of, say, a +4 armor/+2 weapon shield, according to the book? Do you calculate them separately and add them up, treat all enhancement bonuses as one type or the other, depending on what the majority is, or...?
If I had a +5 (AC) Bashing shield, would that fulfill the requirements of it being a magic weapon and I could then apply the likes of Ghost Touch, Furious, and Courageous on a given shield, or do I actually have to spend a +1 slot to enhance it when it already attacks as a +1 weapon?
Do you calculate the modifiers of each shield simultaneously when determining what you're at for the +10 limit, or would it be separate, and each enhancement type has its own +10 limit (so you can have a +10 armor/+10 weapon shield equipped)?
Additionally, can you have two of these multi-enhanced shields worn simultaneously (and the enhancement bonuses to AC won't stack, for example), or can you only have one?
How exactly does one calculate the cost of, say, a +4 armor/+2 weapon shield, according to the book? Do you calculate them separately and add them up, treat all enhancement bonuses as one type or the other, depending on what the majority is, or...?
If I had a +5 (AC) Bashing shield, would that fulfill the requirements of it being a magic weapon and I could then apply the likes of Ghost Touch, Furious, and Courageous on a given shield, or do I actually have to spend a +1 slot to enhance it when it already attacks as a +1 weapon?
Do you calculate the modifiers of each shield simultaneously when determining what you're at for the +10 limit, or would it be separate, and each enhancement type has its own +10 limit (so you can have a +10 armor/+10 weapon shield equipped)?
Additionally, can you have two of these multi-enhanced shields worn simultaneously (and the enhancement bonuses to AC won't stack, for example), or can you only have one?
As far as I can tell, the intent is to have each aspect (weapon, shield) be counted and costed separately.
So a +1 weapon enhancement and a +1 shield enhancement are totally separate, you can only use one aspect each round, they have their own +10 limitation, you can't apply shield-only enhancements to a shield which only has a weapon bonus, etc.And you can use 2 of these, if you wanted, with the usual provisos relating to size, strength, etc, and only one would apply to one's actual AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Treat them entirely separately. The rules specifically state that you calculate them separately and add them together.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Using your example (+4 shield)+(+2 weapon)= 24K
Shield is limited to +10 on the armour/shield table.
weapon is limited to +10 on the weapon table.
They do not interact rules wise. There is no reason not to treat them separately.
You can carry two magical shields, one as a shield and one as a weapon. Much as it pains me, shields appear on the weapons table and they can be used to attack as any other weapon so it's a little hard to argue that you can't treat them as weapons. Note that not only will the enhancement bonuses not stack, neither will the base shield bonuses.
Bashing I am on shakier ground rules wise, and I can see the counter argument has some merit, but I am of the view that it will not count towards counting the weapon side of the shield as magical it only counts as magical when bashing, so cannot count when enchanting. This does mean that if you enchant the shield as a weapon then bashing only gives you the bonus damage as the enhancement bonuses won't stack.
Treat them entirely separately. The rules specifically state that you calculate them separately and add them together.
Shields: Shield enhancement bonuses stack with armor enhancement bonuses. Shield enhancement bonuses do not act as attack or damage bonuses when the shield is used in a shield bash. The bashing special ability, however, does grant a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls (see the special ability description).
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
Using your example (+4 shield)+(+2 weapon)= 24K
Shield is limited to +10 on the armour/shield table.
weapon is limited to +10 on the weapon table.
They do not interact rules wise. There is no reason not to treat them separately.You can carry two magical shields, one as a shield and one as a weapon. Much as it pains me, shields appear on the weapons table and they can be used to attack as any other weapon so it's a little hard to argue that you can't treat them as weapons. Note that not only will the enhancement bonuses not stack, neither will the base shield bonuses.
Bashing I am on shakier ground rules wise, and I can see the counter argument has some merit, but I am of the view that it will not count towards counting the weapon side of the shield as magical it only counts as magical when bashing, so cannot count when enchanting. This does mean that if you enchant the shield as a weapon then bashing only gives you the bonus damage as the enhancement bonuses won't stack.
Which I figured it would be 24K to enhance as such.
But that's about where the similarities end. I tend to think that any item like that, even if you calculate its enhancement bonuses separately, still equate to an item enhanced in such a manner to never surpass a +10 bonus. So if I had a +5/+5 Shield as far as enhancement bonus equivalents are concerned, I couldn't adjust either of those past +6 because the item itself (which is both a piece of armor and a weapon) cannot surpass the +10 bonus.
The key thing behind that understanding is that the descriptions to enhancement limits aren't specific as to whether each rule only affects the item type, only that if it is X, it can only receive X enhancements, and if it's Y, it can only receive Y enhancements, but they are both still enhancements, and still lead to increasing the item's effective enhancement bonus. Since a Shield is, and can be, both X and Y, it leads me to believe that a Shield, no matter how it's enhanced, whether it's +8/+2, +3/+7, whatever, it cannot be enhanced past that level. What also supports this is that the item's hardness and hit point calculation table does not go past +10, something which would be addressed if a shield were to be enhanced in such a manner.
As far as Bashing is concerned, it really boils down to what the actual definition of a Magical Weapon is. Let's look at the mechanical ramifications of a Magical +1 Weapon. A Magical +1 Weapon grants the following:
-+1 Enhancement Bonus to Attack and Damage Rolls (and won't stack with Masterwork benefits).
-Increased Hardness and Hit Points as a result of the +1 Bonus.
There is also a part that says Special Abilities (such as Bashing) do not count as enhancement bonuses to AC/Attack Rolls/Damage unless they specify that they do; Bashing is one of those special abilities that says it makes bashes (AKA attacks) as a +1 Weapon. Since the Bashing property already increases Hardness and Hit Points as a +1 Weapon does, due to its inherent benefits as an Enhancement property, and it increases attack and damage rolls as a +1 Weapon, mechanically speaking it is no different than a +1 Weapon. Even if I enhanced it as a +5 Medium Fortification Bashing Shield, it still mechanically functions as a +1 Weapon that has increased Hardness and Hit Points as a +9 Shield.
So unless there is some other by-the-book reasoning behind it, I'm fulfilling the mechanical definition of what a +1 Weapon is, which is what is needed to apply Weapon Special Abilities. One last thing to note:
A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
It does not specify whether the enhancement bonus the item has must apply to attacks made with the weapon or not. Although it's assumed that the item will be a weapon, and only a weapon, it's not the case when it comes to making Shields into magic weapons, because a Shield is still a piece of armor, even after you enhance it as a weapon.
Ugh, this really is a debacle and could use a rewrite...
Its only a "debacle" if you choose to make it one though. Nothing written anywhere supports or points to how you are choosing to twist it up to make it an issue.
Nothing in the game to date has ever "shared" enhancement bonus in such a way as you are trying to suggest. Like absolutely nothing. We do have the rules saying that they are distinct entities. If a shield has a shield spike that can be the focal point of the "offensive" enhancement and the shield is focal point of the "defensive" enhancement. Each item is separate.
Now take away the shield spike, the exact same thing happens. The only difference is the shield does less damage sans shield spike. Two entities, "defensive" with armor (shield) enhancements and "offensive" with weapon enhancements. Separate entities.
As for the bashing quality, it would decrease the "defensive" capabilities of the shield by sucking up a +1 from that +10 total. Leaving you with only +9 to play with on the armor side. If you were to add to the "offensive" side the first +1 enhancement would be "wasted" as enhancement bonuses don't stack (the same way you lose the enhancement to hit from a masterwork weapon made magical). The +1 from bashing and the +1 from enhancement you added. Once the "offensive" enhancement was bumped to +2 you'd see the improvement on offensive stats.
This is what we have so far, "mixing" enhancements has never occured in the game so I'm not sure where you are getting the idea to do that from, besides trying to over complicate things.
@blackbloodtroll: How am I complicating things on purpose? I'm trying to configure what the rules are so that I can finalize my TWF Shield character build, and the rules for shields are shaky to say the least.
Its only a "debacle" if you choose to make it one though. Nothing written anywhere supports or points to how you are choosing to twist it up to make it an issue.
Nothing in the game to date has ever "shared" enhancement bonus in such a way as you are trying to suggest. Like absolutely nothing. We do have the rules saying that they are distinct entities. If a shield has a shield spike that can be the focal point of the "offensive" enhancement and the shield is focal point of the "defensive" enhancement. Each item is separate.
Now take away the shield spike, the exact same thing happens. The only difference is the shield does less damage sans shield spike. Two entities, "defensive" with armor (shield) enhancements and "offensive" with weapon enhancements. Separate entities.
As for the bashing quality, it would decrease the "defensive" capabilities of the shield by sucking up a +1 from that +10 total. Leaving you with only +9 to play with on the armor side. If you were to add to the "offensive" side the first +1 enhancement would be "wasted" as enhancement bonuses don't stack (the same way you lose the enhancement to hit from a masterwork weapon made magical). The +1 from bashing and the +1 from enhancement you added. Once the "offensive" enhancement was bumped to +2 you'd see the improvement on offensive stats.
This is what we have so far, "mixing" enhancements has never occured in the game so I'm not sure where you are getting the idea to do that from, besides trying to over complicate things.
So by RAW, it's possible to have +10/+10 shields (assuming you have the gold to purchase it)? I always assumed that an item, whether it's a piece of armor, a weapon, or both, could never hit past +10 for any circumstance (barring Artifacts), but if you're saying the rules allow me to do that, then shields are probably the most overpowered weapons in the game for just that reason, and it probably solves the biggest issue I would have with the combination, is not getting enough enhancements to work for the build I was trying to construct.
Being able to enhance the spikes on a shield separate from the shield itself also seems to make no sense in accordance to how the RAW is worded in the Armor section:
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
From how it's worded, logic dictates that once you put spikes on a shield, they merge into one item, and don't become separate articles like you claim they would. This is implied in not one, but two instances, something which, if even one of them was different, would call for a FAQ, since they would result in contradictory definitions of the item. This makes sense with how it's set on the weapon table, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that a shield and its spikes are treated separately, other than Armor Spikes, but those are separate rules:
An enhancement bonus to a suit of armor does not improve the spikes' effectiveness, but the spikes can be made into magic weapons in their own right.
Back to shields...
If they were in-fact separate, your rules would allow me to make a +10/+10 shield, with +10 shield spikes on top of it. Is there another FAQ I'm missing somewhere that you're drawing this conclusion from?
You're going to have to further explain why I have to sacrifice a +1 bonus from the weapon part of the shield when the Bashing property, mechanically speaking, fulfills all aspects of what a +1 weapon entails, bonuses to attack/damage, hardness/hit points, etc. Is it because the enhancement has to be a weapon-based enhancement? Because adding special abilities to a weapon doesn't specify that the enhancement bonus has to be a weapon enhancement bonus, merely that it's an enhancement bonus.
I guess the old line... If you have to ask, you'll never know?
Your question isn't worth FAQ'ing and hopefully someone else has the patience to explain it to you. The only shaky thing at this point would be your understanding of the rules, unfortunately, I'd say.
Apparently double weapons are OP and broken in that case. If you are going to be willfully ignorant I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you left out a very common SINGLE item that carries multiple enhancements that go up to +10/+10.
Just remember that Shield is an item slot capped at one shield.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So by RAW, it's possible to have +10/+10 shields (assuming you have the gold to purchase it)? I always assumed that an item, whether it's a piece of armor, a weapon, or both, could never hit past +10 for any circumstance (barring Artifacts), but if you're saying the rules allow me to do that, then shields are probably the most overpowered weapons in the game for just that reason, and it probably solves the biggest issue I would have with the combination, is not getting enough enhancements to work for the build I was trying to construct.
Having a +10 (equivalent) weapon / +10 (equivalent) shield is roughly equivalent to having a +10 weapon AND a +10 shield, both in cost and power. I'm not seeing the balance issue. They're just two independent magic effects stuck to a single object.
Are you looking to complicate, for the sake of complicating, or do you actually have rules concerns?
It's simply best to know, before saying anything further.
Ok, who hacked into bbt's account and posted this?
If they were in-fact separate, your rules would allow me to make a +10/+10 shield, with +10 shield spikes on top of it.
Yup, but since that would cost five hundred thousand gold pieces, and you can't use the shield bash and the shield spike simultaneously, why would you want to?
You're going to have to further explain why I have to sacrifice a +1 bonus from the weapon part of the shield when the Bashing property, mechanically speaking, fulfills all aspects of what a +1 weapon entails, bonuses to attack/damage, hardness/hit points, etc.
Bashing: "The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash."
Weapons: "A weapon with a special ability must also have at least a +1 enhancement bonus."It's generally felt that acting as a +1 weapon under certain circumstances isn't the same as being a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus.
I guess the old line... If you have to ask, you'll never know?
Your question isn't worth FAQ'ing and hopefully someone else has the patience to explain it to you. The only shaky thing at this point would be your understanding of the rules, unfortunately, I'd say.
Apparently double weapons are OP and broken in that case. If you are going to be willfully ignorant I suppose I shouldn't be surprised you left out a very common SINGLE item that carries multiple enhancements that go up to +10/+10.
Double Weapons aren't OP, because each head is enhanced separately, and you can only use one head for a given attack. So each weapon attack has, at best, a +10 enhancement. Since that takes up 2 hands to do, it's in-line with a character using 2 +10 one-handed/light weapons to attack. You also can't enhance Double Weapons as a piece of armor in addition to the other prevalent benefits, and not many characters get the ability to use Double Weapons right off the bat, as almost each one of them is an Exotic Weapon.
By comparison, you can enhance a Shield as both, it only takes up one hand, and it amounts to (effectively) a +20 weapon. (+30 if you want to treat the shield spikes as a separate entity, which it appears everyone does. So +30.) Not only would I have more defensive capability with two shields enhanced in that manner, since 10 of those 20 bonuses would be armor enhancements, but the offensive capability would be equal, if not superior since I can have two sets of weapon enhancements enabled simultaneously.
This is saying that the shield enchantments don't enhance the shield base, but in addition you can enchant it as a weapon.
If you add spikes to a shield that is already enchanted as a weapon you do not get the effects of both an enchanted shield weapon and the enchanted spike weapon, because when using the spike you are not attacking with the enchanted bludgeoning part.
It's possible that it just transfers the weapon enchantments it has to the spikes instead, but you wont ever get a +20 weapon out of it.
For starters, when I say +20 weapon, I refer to it being a +10 armor/+10 weapon enhancement shield, since Shields are the only items that are counted as both a weapon and a piece of armor at the same time.
If you treat the spikes as being separate from a shield, it becomes its own item, and therefore it is enhanced differently from the shield. If it's that, then +20 Shield weapons are applicable, and several posters in this thread are stating that spikes are separate (when the RAW dictates otherwise). This can lead to a player claiming he can ready both his shield and the spikes on it in the same hand, meaning he gets the benefits of a +20 weapon.
If you treat the spikes as being a part of the shield's enhancements, then enhancing the shield as a weapon would enhance the spikes as well, since the spikes are a part of the shield, and the benefits of the shield (as a weapon) apply to the spikes.
My point here, is the above is a catch-22. They can't be both a part of the shield and separate at the same time, it's only one or the other. Claiming otherwise would reek of cheese to say the least, and I'm trying to narrow down which of those 2 interpretations the rules are.
@ Matthew Downie: So you're of the camp that a shield and its spikes are different entities as far as determining items are concerned, and that you can actually choose to attack with the spikes or the bludgeoning part of a shield? Since when could I do that in the rules? By using it as an improvised weapon? Maybe, but that's not what I'm looking to do with the shield.
So a Bashing weapon only counts as a +1 weapon under certain circumstances? What circumstances does a +1 sword count as a +1 weapon that a Bashing Shield doesn't? Granted, there are some aspects that a Bashing Shield emulates that a +1 weapon doesn't, but mechanically speaking the Bashing Shield emulates everything a +1 weapon does.
BASHING
Price +1 bonus; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Weight —
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
BASHING
Price +1 bonus; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Weight —
A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage). The shield acts as a +1 weapon when used to bash. Only light and heavy shields can have this ability.
I suppose I'm putting a little too much stock into the Bashing property, in that it only "acts as" a +1 weapon, it doesn't actually become a +1 weapon, meaning it isn't actually a magic weapon. A fair enough point, one I've overlooked many times it seems, but then it just leads to another question:
What does acting like a +1 weapon actually do mechanically; does it only mean I bypass DR/Magic? Does it mean I get increased hardness and hit points relevant to a +1 weapon? Does it actually increase attack and damage rolls as a +1 weapon and nothing else?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So you're of the camp that a shield and its spikes are different entities as far as determining items are concerned, and that you can actually choose to attack with the spikes or the bludgeoning part of a shield? Since when could I do that in the rules?
There are already long tedious debates on the subject. I don't really care whether you can or not (the fact that the weapon rules refer to 'spiked shield' rather than 'shield spike' suggests you probably can't). But if a shield spike was considered a separate object, and you could enchant it separately, it still doesn't sound like a good purchase for anyone with finite cash resources.
I've been reading these forums for a while, and 'guy with a shield' gets way fewer 'this is overpowered' complaints than full casters, summoners, archers, and two-handed weapon specialists.
What does acting like a +1 weapon actually do mechanically; does it only mean I bypass DR/Magic? Does it mean I get increased hardness and hit points relevant to a +1 weapon? Does it actually increase attack and damage rolls as a +1 weapon and nothing else?
I'd guess that it does bypass DR/Magic, but doesn't gain the hit point bonuses. A bit like if you cast Magic Weapon on it with a duration of a single attack.
Just remember that Shield is an item slot capped at one shield.
So if I tried to enhance two shields with bonuses to AC so that I can effectively have 2 +5 weapons for a total of 50,000 gold in costs, what exactly would happen?
So you're of the camp that a shield and its spikes are different entities as far as determining items are concerned, and that you can actually choose to attack with the spikes or the bludgeoning part of a shield? Since when could I do that in the rules?There are already long tedious debates on the subject. I don't really care whether you can or not (the fact that the weapon rules refer to 'spiked shield' rather than 'shield spike' suggests you probably can't). But if a shield spike was considered a separate object, and you could enchant it separately, it still doesn't sound like a good purchase for anyone with finite cash resources.
I've been reading these forums for a while, and 'guy with a shield' gets way fewer 'this is overpowered' complaints than full casters, summoners, archers, and two-handed weapon specialists.
Which you would be correct, but it's all theoretic work here. If people are saying I can have +10/+10 Shields, then by all means I'll be using that by the endgame.
As for the OP claims, it's probably because nobody builds two-shield martials due to all the confusing rules associated with them, nor can they just 1-round encounters because "reasons".
Just remember that Shield is an item slot capped at one shield.So if I tried to enhance two shields with bonuses to AC so that I can effectively have 2 +5 weapons for a total of 50,000 gold in costs, what exactly would happen?
The same thing as if you'd enchanted two other +5 weapons? What's the question here, exactly?
I mean, you can't wield more than one shield as a shield, so you'd kind of be wasting your gold, unless you're just going for all the possible shield boons to switch between your defenses.
But you're giving up a lot to do that, considering there are lots of options with notably better stats.
Which you would be correct, but it's all theoretic work here. If people are saying I can have +10/+10 Shields, then by all means I'll be using that by the endgame.
It actually is a pretty cool idea, isn't it!
As for the OP claims, it's probably because nobody builds two-shield martials due to all the confusing rules associated with them, nor can they just 1-round encounters because "reasons".
That's probably quite true - different GMs likely run it different ways. It's probably also because when thinking of "cool character concepts" someone wielding two shields rarely comes to mind as a first thing. Heck, someone wielding a single shield as a weapon only gained a minor bit of acceptance with Captain America, and I've only really seen it hit a kind of increase after he became popular.
Two shields? Not a common iconic theme at all.
EDIT:
I'd guess that it does bypass DR/Magic, but doesn't gain the hit point bonuses. A bit like if you cast Magic Weapon on it with a duration of a single attack.
This is pretty much my read on it as well.
this character is in fact a 2 shield martial, i think they are quite cool, but ive done the math, and they are below average on damage. really there is little point in haveing 2 +10/+10 shields because you can only benifit defensivly from one of them a turn, i suppose you could give them diffrent powers and switch round to round but that seems really really expensive, best to treat one as a double weapon and go +10/+10 amd treat the other one purly as a weapon, unless gold isnt a thing then go hog wild, but your sinking alot of gold into those shields to get them up when you also have other gear and magic items you have to get. this is really limited by gold income and WBL, i dont ever see it really being an issue
really there is little point in haveing 2 +10/+10 shields because you can only benifit defensivly from one of them a turn, i suppose you could give them diffrent powers and switch round to round but that seems really really expensive, best to treat one as a double weapon and go +10/+10 amd treat the other one purly as a weapon, unless gold isnt a thing then go hog wild, but your sinking alot of gold into those shields to get them up when you also have other gear and magic items you have to get. this is really limited by gold income and WBL, i dont ever see it really being an issue
This was really what I meant before.
Given many different high-level caster tricks, gold can become a function of time instead of level or treasure-found, but it takes time to enchant the wazoo out of those shields, too, and there are vastly superior (and less expensive, meaning faster) methods to gaining identical or better than a second shield can give.
EDIT: basically: as weapons, they're slightly inferior and more expensive than other options, and as defenses, they're substantially inferior and more expensive than other options. This doesn't make them worthless or useless, but rather having too much redundancy for too much expense makes seeking other options substantially more cost effective and more character-effective.
Spikes on a shield is not a weapon category. You have shield bashing, with a normal shield, or a spiked shield.
The Spikes are an addition to the shield that changes the damage. They don't have HP, hardness, material or ANYTHING. All they do in the game is change the damage.
You can enchant a shield as a +10 Shield/Armor, and as a +10 Weapon. The enhancement bonuses overlap, they do not stack, for purposes of making a tougher shield.
If you have Shield Master, then your +5 Shield Enhancement bonus can also serve as a Weapon Bonus. This is a wonderful feat for shield users.
Your goal as a shield user is a +5 Spiked Bashing Shield, +5 Defender. With SHield Master, you can devote the Weapon Enhancement bonus completely to AC while suffering no damage penalty. Bashing increases the size and is worth taking. The combination of +6 Shield and +6 Weapon is 108,000 gp, just a little more then a +7 Weapon.
And note that if you do use two of things, the Defender bonuses stack. Yes, you can get a really sick amount of AC off this combo, although the shield bonuses themselves don't stack.
If you have Augment Gems from 3.5, slap a missile deflection on for 1 missile deflect a round and +4 AC vs ranged attacks, to boot.
An Uber Large Shield is potentially +7 Shield AC, a +5 2-12 x/20 dmg weapon, with +5 Defender AC on top of it. For what it does, it's the best weapon/defense combo item in the game.
==Aelryinth
Spikes on a shield is not a weapon category. You have shield bashing, with a normal shield, or a spiked shield.
The Spikes are an addition to the shield that changes the damage. They don't have HP, hardness, material or ANYTHING. All they do in the game is change the damage.
You can enchant a shield as a +10 Shield/Armor, and as a +10 Weapon. The enhancement bonuses overlap, they do not stack, for purposes of making a tougher shield.
If you have Shield Master, then your +5 Shield Enhancement bonus can also serve as a Weapon Bonus. This is a wonderful feat for shield users.
Your goal as a shield user is a +5 Spiked Bashing Shield, +5 Defender. With SHield Master, you can devote the Weapon Enhancement bonus completely to AC while suffering no damage penalty. Bashing increases the size and is worth taking. The combination of +6 Shield and +6 Weapon is 108,000 gp, just a little more then a +7 Weapon.
And note that if you do use two of things, the Defender bonuses stack. Yes, you can get a really sick amount of AC off this combo, although the shield bonuses themselves don't stack.
If you have Augment Gems from 3.5, slap a missile deflection on for 1 missile deflect a round and +4 AC vs ranged attacks, to boot.
An Uber Large Shield is potentially +7 Shield AC, a +5 2-12 x/20 dmg weapon, with +5 Defender AC on top of it. For what it does, it's the best weapon/defense combo item in the game.
==Aelryinth
Thanks for clarifying the point I was making with the shield spikes being unified with a given shield; a lot of people were saying that the spikes are a separate item from the shield, something which RAW only dictates Armor Spikes to be a separate enhancing option from the Armor itself.
I actually questioned how that would be ran in terms of calculating hit points and hardness, because the table only went up to +10 armor/shields/weapons/whatever; so the increased hardness and hit points would be treated as enhancement bonuses then?
Shield Master would be available by 6th level at the earliest thanks to Ranger feats, and yes, I would be taking Ranger levels for this build. I completely forgot about Defending, that would make my AC skyrocket! Tack on the factor that I'd be Dexterity-based, and you're looking at the most effective TWF Tank in the game! I would also be hybriding into Barbarian, so would it be worthwhile to apply Furious and Courageous on both shields to make my rage much more powerful?
Keep in mind that Dex-based does not contribute well to damage, and shields are not inherently finessable. Given you're going to have a fine AC anyways (you're using a shield you're going to push to max enhancement, after all) AC isn't going to be a problem for you. I suggest you stay strength-based.
If you think you'll have the rage rounds, Furious and Courageous are indeed good choices. But remember that Furious increases your Weapon enhancement bonus, not your SHIELD enhancement bonus. Thus, using it with Defender grants you extra AC, not more th/dmg, unless you are NOT using Shield Master.
Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack unless they say so. Thus, enhancement from weapon and enhancement from armor are different sources, and don't stack, unless your DM house-rules otherwise. Allowing them to stack for purposes of weapon toughness/hit points really won't make much difference except come sunder time, and would fit thematically, but no, not by RAW.
Courageous on both shields is a waste. It increases morale bonuses you have...two Courageous shields will overlap, not stack, in their effect.
Furious won't stack with your Shield's Armor bonus being used by Shield Master. Unless you want it to boost defender, it'll also be wasted. You are better off with Defiant vs something...+2 to Shield AC, +2 TH/Dmg!
One of your better options might be Ghost Touch since it'll give you a Ghost Touch weapon AND defense. Combine with your other shield getting Ray Deflection or something, and you can start getting a really thorough defense.
But I'll reiterate that you probably don't need a Dex build to make this work. A 13 Starting Dex and a +6 booster at some point will get you all the Dex you need.
I'll also note the Guardian Weapon enhancement...same as defender, but SAVING THROWS. Also perfect for an Uber Shield, esp if your DM rules that Defender AC bonuses do not stack with themselves.
==Aelrynth
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just to be clear, you'd need ghost touch as both a weapon enhancement and as a shield enhancement to gain the benefits as a weapon and as defence. They are different mechanically and costed differently. No sneaky discounts allowed :).
I personally believe that if you shield bash with a Ghost Touch Shield it's going to hit the incorp. It doesn't suddenly stop being ghost touch because you're touching it back, now.
And at a +3 Cost, I consider it overpriced to start with (most people consider the +1 as a weapon overpriced, too, given how situational it is).
You can dual wield shields the same way you can dual wield Klar. Shield AC doesn't stack, and yes, it's an inferior weapon...but it means feats stack. And you can always swap primary hand if you're using different weapon enhancements.
Technically, you can get a +15 weapon out of a shield, since Bashing stacks with any weapon and shield enhancements! And if Ghost Touch stacks, there's another +1 from the armor side. While Bane's enhancement bonus wouldn't stack, the extra damage would, and you could pick up the enhancement with Defiant on the far side.
So, yeah, there's TONS of room for customization and variety on the shields. As something that can reach 300k in value just with enhancement bonuses, let alone add-ons, that shouldn't be surprising.
==Aelryinth
Keep in mind that Dex-based does not contribute well to damage, and shields are not inherently finessable. Given you're going to have a fine AC anyways (you're using a shield you're going to push to max enhancement, after all) AC isn't going to be a problem for you. I suggest you stay strength-based.
If you think you'll have the rage rounds, Furious and Courageous are indeed good choices. But remember that Furious increases your Weapon enhancement bonus, not your SHIELD enhancement bonus. Thus, using it with Defender grants you extra AC, not more th/dmg, unless you are NOT using Shield Master.
Enhancement bonuses from different sources don't stack unless they say so. Thus, enhancement from weapon and enhancement from armor are different sources, and don't stack, unless your DM house-rules otherwise. Allowing them to stack for purposes of weapon toughness/hit points really won't make much difference except come sunder time, and would fit thematically, but no, not by RAW.
Courageous on both shields is a waste. It increases morale bonuses you have...two Courageous shields will overlap, not stack, in their effect.
Furious won't stack with your Shield's Armor bonus being used by Shield Master. Unless you want it to boost defender, it'll also be wasted. You are better off with Defiant vs something...+2 to Shield AC, +2 TH/Dmg!
One of your better options might be Ghost Touch since it'll give you a Ghost Touch weapon AND defense. Combine with your other shield getting Ray Deflection or something, and you can start getting a really thorough defense.
But I'll reiterate that you probably don't need a Dex build to make this work. A 13 Starting Dex and a +6 booster at some point will get you all the Dex you need.
I'll also note the Guardian Weapon enhancement...same as defender, but SAVING THROWS. Also perfect for an Uber Shield, esp if your DM rules that Defender AC bonuses do not stack with themselves.
==Aelrynth
It doesn't contribute as well as Strength since Strength gets 1.5x damage on two-handed weapons, but since I'm using two light shields, I wouldn't get that increased Strength scale anyway, so it's not a horrid idea to go Dexterity-based since I can get Agile shields without too much problem, especially since I can get the Dexterity-equivalent of Power Attack, Piranha Strike.
I'll be taking 10 levels of Barbarian (though it won't come until 11th level), so getting rage rounds shouldn't be too difficult, though I'll be hurting for them in those early levels. I'll also be getting access to Natural Armor and the like through the Beast Totem chain, so that's always nice.
I was honestly thinking of putting them on both simply so I could get double-bonuses to my Rage, since it's just increased by an untyped amount equal to half the weapon's enhancement bonus. Obviously I won't get Courageous right away, but when I take my Barbarian levels, getting the ability to increase my Dexterity by an additional +4 is double+good. But I suppose I could do without one because of the whole "doesn't stack with themselves" rule.
Adding an extra +2 AC for Defending and Guardian sounds like a damn good +1 enhancement investment to me. Since the build is meant to be more of a TWF Tank, I don't see why that would be a silly idea. As much as I would like Defiant, I don't think I'd have the enhancement space to allow as a selective benefit; I already have Favored Enemy for that sort of thing, and that's just to counteract the increased difficulty of fighting things like Dragons, Constructs, and Undead.
I'm not sure the Ghost Touch would apply to both like that. Remember that if I can't enhance a +1 (AC) Bashing Shield with a weapon property off the bat, then you can't treat a Ghost Touch Weapon as a Ghost Touch armor as well. Since incorporeals target Touch AC, and my Dexterity will be through the roof, it's not really necessary to get as an armor property as well.
Yeah, I'll probably put Defending on one, and Guardian on the other, since I'm sure they won't stack because of the same source, as they're both untyped bonuses.
Dual wield shields? There are people actually arguing for that? You're going to dual wield, as weapons, something that gives you a penalty to all dex(and Strength) based skill rolls?
If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency Shield but not Shield Proficiency would you get the Armour Check Penalty knocked off your attack rolls?
Just curious I mean after all if shields are just weapons like any other ...
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Double shield is a rare, but realworld fighting style:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9uILn0iCUs
That's a point. The armor check penalty of a shield will apply against Weapon Finesse. You'll have to make your Quickdraw Light Metal Shield out of Mithral to get around it.
And yes, if you have Shield prof but not martial weapons, you'd take the ACP as a TH penalty on a shield bash.
==Aelryinth
Mithral shield solves the armor check problem, so it's hardly a problem. Shield Master eventually allows for no penalty when dual wielding heavy shields. Eventually...
Dual wield shields? There are people actually arguing for that? You're going to dual wield, as weapons, something that gives you a penalty to all dex(and Strength) based skill rolls?
If you have Martial Weapon Proficiency Shield but not Shield Proficiency would you get the Armour Check Penalty knocked off your attack rolls?
Just curious I mean after all if shields are just weapons like any other ...
Considering not being proficient in shields as a weapon incurs a flat -4 penalty to attacks rolls only is mechanically and significantly different from getting a -1/-2 penalty to attack rolls, skills checks, ability checks, etc. for not being proficient in using them as a form of protection, if you are missing one, you take the respective penalties. For the build I am constructing, I am a Witchguard Infiltrator (Ranger) 10/Invulnerable Urban Barbarian 10, so the concern about getting proficiency in shields as both a piece of armor and a weapon is irrelevant, since this is solved by level 1.
I am also unsure as to how armor check penalty would apply to attacks made via Weapon Finesse. Armor Check Penalty for proficiency only applies to Dexterity and Strength based Skill Checks. Non-proficiency applies it to attack rolls as well as the same for Ability Checks.
@ Imbicatus: To be honest, I thought about that trait, but it would not work with the Dexterity build I am constructing because of how it would interact with the Agile property placed on the shields: Although they are light weapons to me, they are not light weapons by default, so unless I enhanced the shields myself, or by someone who also has that trait, I cannot make Heavy Shields viable weapons. (I could only wish, though...)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Just for fun, a klar really complicates matters, because it's 3 things:
A one-handed slashing weapon
A light shield(shield)
A spiked light shield light piercing weapon.
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
===========
That's how shields affect weapon finesse.
And yes, it will stack with non-proficiency.
==Aelryinth
|
Benefit: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons.
===========
That's how shields affect weapon finesse.
And yes, it will stack with non-proficiency.==Aelryinth
If its masterwok, a light shield has an acp of 0. It's hardly a penalty worth mentioning after 1st level.
a masterwork light WOODEN shield has the ACP of 0. Steel will still be -1. If you're going to use it as a weapon, you want steel, probably mithral to get it to 0. Adamantine will keep it -1 still.
==Aelryinth
Wood and steel have the same penalty. Maybe you are thinking of the QuickDraw shield.
Wasn't saying they do but I could see how someone could read it that way.
There is actually a feat that allows you to treat the enhancement bonus of your shield as a weapon enhancement bonus when shield bashing. I believe it was called Shield Master.
Given all the feats necessary to get the feat, I would imagine that making a shield that can use its defensive bonus as an offensive one should be pretty expensive.
If you really want a character to be able to do that, why not just advise the player to take that feat, if you don't mind my asking? Not trying to criticize the idea. Just curious.
There is actually a feat that allows you to treat the enhancement bonus of your shield as a weapon enhancement bonus when shield bashing. I believe it was called Shield Master.
Given all the feats necessary to get the feat, I would imagine that making a shield that can use its defensive bonus as an offensive one should be pretty expensive.
If you really want a character to be able to do that, why not just advise the player to take that feat, if you don't mind my asking? Not trying to criticize the idea. Just curious.
I am taking that feat, but 6th level is the absolute earliest you can get it. The reason why you want +5 AC/+5 hit and damage shields is because you can slap Defending on one, and Guardian on the other, and use both of those to increase saves and AC. Tacking on Furious (yes, I will get rage with this build, but not until 11th level), you're giving yourself up to a +7 untyped bonus to AC and Saves whenever you are TWF with the shields in question, and you are still making attacks as a +5 weapon due to the Shield Master feat.
@ Aelryinth: Well, you learn something new every day. It seems a little silly, but what do I know? Not much these days.
In either case, Darkwood shields are the cheapest way to go to accomplish what needs to be done, and Quickdraw Light Shields are needed since I will be able to cast some spells (most notably, Haste will be among that list), but Mithril would have the longest survivability, since I'm sure a lot of GMs would play the whole "Your shields are on fire" card against me.
Additionally, ACP penalty increases only apply to if the shield is Heavy instead of Light. Unless I can cheese my way to apply Agile to Heavy Shields via the enchanter having the Gorum trait (with me having it as well to use it as light weapons), I'll be stuck with Light Shields.