The nice thing about summoners is that they are powerful enough to allow you to build a fairly whimsical character. You don't really need to worry about optimization at all, and you will still play OK with the big boys.
Which is sort of the issue. If you can divert some of your power to whimsey, but still compete with those who do no such thing, there is a problem. Like i said, the easiest solution is to deliberately NOT optimize your summoner. Do that in good faith and its a wonderful class with lots of potential and great rp potential. Heck the synthesist takes arguing with yourself to a whole new level, when you can have a conversation with the entirely different entity currently occupying the same space as you.
Of course this does leave the issue of lots of potential for over optimization to be present, but I suppose that could be said of a lot of classes. It depends on the players really.
No class can really do it the way the summoner can. No matter what you optimize for, if the summoner can do it, you can put ALL your 'stuff' into that thing. No class, not even the wizard or cleric has that kind of custimization. And the summoner certainly doesn't have any lack of 'stuff' they get an amount comparable to the more potent classes in the game.
Are you saying the summoner is as good a caster as a sorcerer? Let me be clear about this. A summoner sans eidolon can be equally effective when in the same game as a sorcerer from 1 to 20 with players of equal system mastery.
Yes, because a Summoner can totally lay out a DC 20 Sleep spell at the first level or a...I think that Kitsune is at DC 24 with suggestion at level 6.
Side note, said Sorcerer has an Eidolon too, except it's a Skinwalker Barbarian that was supposed to be an opponent but she hit it with a charm, danced the bedroom tango, and now it's her cohort and she didn't need to burn a feat on Leadership and it doesn't use her magic item slots. It's also out all the time, has three natural attacks, has 40 foot move speed (50 if she's in cat form), do I need to go on?
Another point that is brought up. Summoners can use their minute summons as Trapfinders. Why bother having a rogue disarm or search for traps if you can have a summoned creature set them off? If the trap kills the summoned creature, there is only a minor loss of 1 use of Summon Monster.
Not very well. A summoned critter will only attack your enemies. A trap is not an enemy.
If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.
I know there is this exception. A summoner then has to have a handful of languages. I think level 3 is the first time you get a speaking critter, and you have to have one of the elemental languages. Personally (and since the OP is banning the class altogether, I am RAW not RAI on this one), any creature than can communicate is going to argue about something so ludicrous. Yes attacking creatures is also ludicrous, but that command is built into the spell.
Another solution I offer to the summoner's spell list is to only allow conjuration spells on their list. The other spells they have can still be chosen, but become self only (implies eidolon). I am not sure it is a great (or even needed) fix, but it feels thematic to a conjurer to me.
Elementals will still be unaffected... But that's one heck of a power downgrade.Summoning down to small earth elementals are the strongest summon possible until level 9 when you can superior summons down to celestial lions. With evolved summon monster small earth elementals gain even more value so I'm just going to call this one.
Additionally the master summoner at higher levels doesn't care about prot from X when you can summon the furies, dretches which instantly stinking cloud 4+ times, or archons firin mah lazorz!
Put simply Prot from X doesn't really help against most summons.
Evolved summoned monster really doesn't do that much for the small earth elemental.
Evolutions that grant additional attacks or enhance existing attacks can be applied only to a medium or larger summoned creatures.
Almost all of the 1pt evolutions do exactly that.
If you summon more than one creature with a single spell, only one creature gains this evolution.
It's a pretty decent feat when paired right, but down summoning small earth Elementals is not a good match.
Spamming stinking could is only going to work if you speak abyssal and think that the enemy is going to fail a DC 13 fort save. Best use is to break line of sight.
If you're going to ban the summoner there's a lot of other classes you should ban too.
In fact, ban everything except the Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Slayer and Warpriest.
There's your game. Enjoy it.
If you're going to ban the summoner there's a lot of other classes you should ban too.
In fact, ban everything except the Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger and Warpriest.
Poor rogue and fighter. They can't catch a break.
EDIT: fixed the terrible rogue spelling. I shouldn't post on my phone.
Poor rouge and fighter. They can't catch a break.If you're going to ban the summoner there's a lot of other classes you should ban too.
In fact, ban everything except the Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Slayer and Warpriest.
The rogue can catch a break. Their break is just called Investigator/Archaeologist/Ninja.
Are you saying the summoner is as good a caster as a sorcerer? Let me be clear about this. A summoner sans eidolon can be equally effective when in the same game as a sorcerer from 1 to 20 with players of equal system mastery.
Yes, because a Summoner can totally lay out a DC 20 Sleep spell at the first level or a...I think that Kitsune is at DC 24 with suggestion at level 6.
Side note, said Sorcerer has an Eidolon too, except it's a Skinwalker Barbarian that was supposed to be an opponent but she hit it with a charm, danced the bedroom tango, and now it's her cohort and she didn't need to burn a feat on Leadership and it doesn't use her magic item slots. It's also out all the time, has three natural attacks, has 40 foot move speed (50 if she's in cat form), do I need to go on?
I will take that as one vote for yes but I still want the person who made the claim to answer.
The Synthesist archetype on the other hand is a good idea: poorly implemented. It is overpowered.
It's straight up worse than a regular summoner at everything and makes you better at something you don't need to be better at. Synthesist looks bad because it magnifies the "Do the fighter's job better" thing ten times over, but I'd rather have a regular summoner if I was looking for pure power. Master summoner is the cray one.
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Master summoner is the cray one.
I am of the opposite opinion. I think they are the most fair if the player is obligated to have a quick turn.
It's wonkyness stems from the power throttle being a meta limitation. A responsible master summoner player plays much like a summon focused wizard. I like them because none of their summons out-do the barbar and fighter.
It's wonkyness stems from the power throttle being a meta limitation. A responsible master summoner player plays much like a summon focused wizard. I like them because none of their summons out-do the barbar and fighter.But do /all/ of their summons outdo the martial? That's the issue most people have with the Master; you can drop 2-4 creatures on the battlefield every round for the duration of "until you feel like the other side is thoroughly doomed" without much issue.
From experience, running that many monsters quickly is a quick path to madness.
That aside, a small horde may do as much damage as one fighter (no you don't get to run pouncing lions all the time because that takes too long. Big single attack creatures are your friend)
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
I love playing it and I enjoy DM'ing it.
Save the 'unbalanced' arguments for the Wizard vs. Fighter threads. Resolve that, and then come back around to the Summoner.
I don't mind the base summoner.The Synthesist archetype on the other hand is a good idea: poorly implemented. It is overpowered. I only know one or two people who'd argue that it's not "because you can wreck it with high level dispel spells that won't even be seen in most normal games" but they're just proving their own point really.
While I like the idea of the archetype I'm baffled that it managed to make it through playtesting in it's current form. Not because it may or may not be powerful but because so many different players seem to fail to understand how it works. And while I am not one of them, if so many people are having trouble getting their heads around it then perhaps it could have been written a bit more clearly. Preferably not so overpowered too :p.
Most people I know think the base summoner is stronger than the synthesis. Action economy FTW.←←This is why.
I will take that as one vote for yes but I still want the person who made the claim to answer.Are you saying the summoner is as good a caster as a sorcerer? Let me be clear about this. A summoner sans eidolon can be equally effective when in the same game as a sorcerer from 1 to 20 with players of equal system mastery.
Yes, because a Summoner can totally lay out a DC 20 Sleep spell at the first level or a...I think that Kitsune is at DC 24 with suggestion at level 6.
Side note, said Sorcerer has an Eidolon too, except it's a Skinwalker Barbarian that was supposed to be an opponent but she hit it with a charm, danced the bedroom tango, and now it's her cohort and she didn't need to burn a feat on Leadership and it doesn't use her magic item slots. It's also out all the time, has three natural attacks, has 40 foot move speed (50 if she's in cat form), do I need to go on?
I'm saying if you have all the utility of the caster and the ability to 100-0 a target while using utility instead of having to save or suck (Since you can pounce and kill) makes the sorcerer and the summoner as classes very even on footing. A DC20 sleep at level 1 takes a round to cast on a target vulnerable to mind effecting while pounce takes 1 charge action to kill a target and works on all targets.
The summoner and the sorcerer both get access to simulacrum, black tentacles, and a slew of other spells which shatter games. If we're going with base class only (Otherwise master summoner and synth get to go into this) I'd absolutely say the base summoner is comparable to the base sorcerer. Obviously the wizard is stronger but the sorcerer is not definitely stronger. No matter how you build as a sorcerer your plan B isn't just twice as many attacks as plan A.
At level 1 contending the sorcerer is better than the summoner is simply insanity. They remain very close until around level 18-20 at which point it becomes a question of how...
So is that a yes or no to my previous question?
I prefer first-worlder summoners. Half-Orc, with the race trait that gives them a +1 Luck bonus on saves. Pugwampis make GM's cry. :P
Seriously, tho... Summers are pretty damn powerful. At low level they can be straight up better than other casters, and even once you get to higher levels they can still hold their own even if other casters temporarily outshine them. Temporarily, that is, until the Summoner gets Gate. Some of those outsiders have access to spells the Summoner doesn't, which is a bit like cherry picking what they want to cast from pretty much any list they want. Injured? Summon one of those goody-goody types with Heal.
Are you a master summoner? Well, who needs the rest of the party, anyway! They complained your turns took too long, but without those mooks you can just take ALL THE TURNS!!!
If you gain access to 5-10 9th level spells or get access to 3-4 particularly powerful ones you're no less powerful than the sorcerer.
From my count the Summoner has access to 2 9th level spells: Gate and Dominate Monster. It does get a decent amount of 8th level spells.
Once a summoner gets Gate 10+ times a day, it pretty much is as good as a full caster.
"If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components." - The rules for Summoner
If you are using Gate to call in creatures it costs you 10,000 gold per use. It's not quite as handy as you first thought.
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If you gain access to 5-10 9th level spells or get access to 3-4 particularly powerful ones you're no less powerful than the sorcerer.From my count the Summoner has access to 2 9th level spells: Gate and Dominate Monster. It does get a decent amount of 8th level spells.
Once a summoner gets Gate 10+ times a day, it pretty much is as good as a full caster."If used as gate, the summoner must pay any required material components." - The rules for Summoner
If you are using Gate to call in creatures it costs you 10,000 gold per use. It's not quite as handy as you first thought.
To be fair, 10,000 GP isn't that much by 19-20th levels.
To be fair, 10,000 GP isn't that much by 19-20th levels.
At level 20 your WBL is 880,000. It may be a dip in the bucket at that point if used sparingly, but if we're talking about it in the context of "10+ Gates per day? I'm f$#%ing awesome just like all the other full casters!" you're going to find yourself to be a broke ass 20th level character rather quickly as your full potential is going to cost you 100,000+ gold per day.
When that 10,000gp can net you a free Wish or Miracle, it can kinda balance out. And even if you ignore Gate, Summon Monster 9 has some pretty nice outsiders on the list (including a 1 Wish/month Demon, and an Archon with 7th level divine casting potential).
And assuming both a Wizard and a Summoner had access to 100,000gp on the spot, could the Wizard actually cast Gate 10 times? It doesn't necessarily matter if they can't afford to do it every day, they'll auto-win the campaign on day 1...
(Also note: I realize I'm sounding pretty anti-summoner here, but I do like the class and have never banned them -- nor the problematic archetypes -- from my games. I'm just not surprised that some people find them overpowered.)
Few nice spells? They get access to pretty much all the conjuration spells.
Of the 279 conjuration spells in Pathfinder, the summoner only has 96. That's barely over a third. This is more conflation.
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Most people I know think the base summoner is stronger than the synthesis. Action economy FTW.←←This is why.Action economy is not always king.
I agree but in this case i think it is.
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I as a DM refuse to allow players to play the summoner class. The reasons are as follows:
1. You get TONS of summon monsters per day even at level 1. An average summoner with 16 Charisma can summon monster 6 times a day at level 1 where most spellcasters don't have that many spells at level 1. Summon monster is a better spell that a 1d4/1d6 bolt from a wizard school or sorcerer bloodline. This does not include that they can also spend their normal spell slots to summon as well.
2. It makes the Conjurer wizard/sorcerer totally underpowered builds. A summoner's summoned monsters last MINUTES instead of ROUNDS. Why bother even playing a summoner-style wizard/sorcerer if the Summoner can summon better than them?
3. With forewarning, a Summoner can blow all their summons and totally gimp a planned encounter. For instance in a game I played in the Master Summoner in the group knew we were entering a Goblin Infested fortress so blew all his summons to summon 9d3 dogs and use his canine army to pretty much clear out the entire dungeon. With a 4 minute duration that was more than enough time in battle to wipe out most encounters.
4. Summoners slow down the game WAY too much. When you have tons of summoned monsters on the field being controlled, you have to include the actions of each summoned monster.
5. The Summoner's Eidolon has more combat potential than most fighters and druid animal companions. It also can't be permanently killed. A summoner can just summon it back later if it dies.
SO what's your opinion on the Summoner?
1. This does not combine with eidolon.
2. Conjurer wizards and sorcerers do not care about summons nearly as much. Because Conjuration has some of the best offensive spells in addition to summon goodness.
3. Every real class will easily destroy a properly leveled encounter with forewarning and foreknowledge.
4. More of a problem with badly prepared player. Spell preparation casters, particularly full list access spell preparation casters are worse.
5. Animal companions (not only "druid" by now, sorcerers, oracles, clerics and probably more can pick them too, sometimes with investment of just one feat, sometimes not even with that, certainly with less jumping through the hoops than even a ranger needs to get a full progression pet) are companions to a class with full casting. Accidentally, you can easily replace them too, just takes a bit of time except for very exotic companions. The summoner is only a half-caster. Sure, he gets some nice spells, but he still generally gets them later than a sorcerer, and less of them, and his list of choices is much more limited. You have a couple of great debuffs and one or two passable offensive spells, but generally your list is rigged towards buffs, and because of your stunted spell level progression you are not going to benefit as much from metamagic shenanigans.
As about outshining fighters, who cares about mook classes? Using fighter as a measuring stick is a crime against DnD design so severe that it killed whole editions.
Now above in the thread there was an opinion that summoner can be an one-man party who takes roles of both fighter and wizard and this is somehow bad and would make him unwelcome in a party. A summoner cannot, of course replace a wizard/sorcerer for the reasons outlined above, and replacing a fighter isn't much of a feat at all. But setting that aside, being an all-rounder is what divine casters (and now some of the others) do - they kick in faces, and usually vastly better than a fighter, and they have recovery, and they have all sorts of non-combat utility, and eventually they are able to kill people with their spells too. Summoner is simply not as good as them, being more limited in what it can do. And I have yet to see anyone complain about other players rolling clerics and druids. Generating cripp... sorry, one-trick characters, is what might cause problems with party composition.
Few nice spells? They get access to pretty much all the conjuration spells.Of the 279 conjuration spells in Pathfinder, the summoner only has 96. That's barely over a third. This is more conflation.
*The good ones.
My bad.
My point is, the Summoner gets the vast majority of staple full caster spells. Sure it doesn't get the obscure ones, but it has almost ALL the really good ones.
Greater Invisibility, Black Tentacles, Haste, Slow, the Wall spells, Maze, Greater Teleport/Teleport/Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Simulacrum, Planar Binding, Create Demiplane, True Seeing, Banishment, Magic Jar(Jeez wow), Major Creation, Stoneskin, and many more winners.
Seeing as the Summoner's spellcasting should be comparable to a Bard's, I don't see how anyone could look at the Summoner's spell list and call it balanced.
*The good ones.
My bad.
My point is, the Summoner gets the vast majority of staple full caster spells. Sure it doesn't get the obscure ones, but it has almost ALL the really good ones.
Greater Invisibility, Black Tentacles, Haste, Slow, the Wall spells, Maze, Greater Teleport/Teleport/Dimension Door, Plane Shift, Simulacrum, Planar Binding, Create Demiplane, True Seeing, Banishment, Magic Jar(Jeez wow), Major Creation, Stoneskin, and many more winners.
Seeing as the Summoner's spellcasting should be comparable to a Bard's, I don't see how anyone could look at the Summoner's spell list and call it balanced.
All the other ones are crap, eh?
Abundant Ammunition
Accept Affliction
Acid Arrow
Acid Fog
Acidic Spray
Air Bubble
Ancestral Gift
Arrow Eruption
Ash Storm
Bard's Escape
Blaze of Glory
Blessing of Courage and Life
Blood Mist
Bow Spirit
Breath Of Life
Burst of Nettles
Call Construct
Call Spirit
Cape Of Wasps
Caustic Eruption
Chains Of Light
Clashing Rocks
Cloud Of Seasickness
Cloudkill
Conjure Deadfall
Corrosive Consumption
Create Demiplane, Greater
Create Food and Water
Create Water
Cure Critical Wounds
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass
Cure Light Wounds
Cure Light Wounds, Mass
Cure Moderate Wounds
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass
Cure Serious Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass
Delay Disease
Delay Poison
Delay Poison, Communal
Dream Feast
Drench
Dust Of Twilight
Elemental Bombardment
Elemental Swarm
Fiery Shuriken
Fire Seeds
Fleshworm Infestation
Fog Cloud
Freedom's Toast
Gate
Genius Avaricious
Getaway
Geyser
Gloomblind Bolts
Grove of Respite
Hallucinogenic Smoke
Heal
Heal Mount
Heal, Mass
Heroes' Feast
Hero's Defiance
Ice Spears
Instant Armor
Instant Summons
Interplanetary Teleport
Jester's Jaunt
Joyful Rapture
Ki Arrow
King's Castle
Lead Plating
Life Shield
Light of Iomedae
Litany of Entanglement
Litany of Escape
Maddening Oubliette
Mage's Magnificent Mansion
Martyr's Last Blessing
Maw Of Chaos
Mighty Fist Of The Earth
Mudball
Music of the Spheres
Neutralize Poison
Obscuring Mist
Phantom Driver
Phase Door
Pick Your Poison
Pillar Of Life
Planar Ally
Planar Ally, Greater
Planar Ally, Lesser
Protective Spirit
Purging Finale
Raise Animal Companion
Raise Dead
Rampart
Refuge
Regenerate
Reloading Hands
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Disease
Remove Paralysis
Remove Sickness
Replenish Ki
Replenish Ki
Restoration
Restoration, Greater
Restoration, Lesser
Resurgent Transformation
Resurrection
Retrieve Item
Returning Weapon
Returning Weapon, Communal
Reviving Finale
Rift of Ruin
Sacred Bond
Seamantle
Secret Chest
Secure Shelter
Sepia Snake Sigil
Shadow Bomb Admixture
Shambler
Signifer's Rally
Sleet Storm
Slipstream
Solid Fog
Solid Note
Song of Kyonin
Soothing Word
Soul Transfer
Spawn Calling
Stabilize
Stinking Cloud
Stone Call
Storm Of Blades
Storm Of Vengeance
Storm Step
Stumble Gap
Summon Ancestral Guardian
Summon Derghodaemon
Summon Elder Worm
Summon Elemental Steed
Summon Flight of Eagles
Summon Froghemoth
Summon Greater Demon
Summon Instrument
Summon Minor Ally
Summon Monster III
Summon Monster IX
Summon Monster VI
Summon Nature's Ally I
Summon Nature's Ally II
Summon Nature's Ally III
Summon Nature's Ally IV
Summon Nature's Ally IX
Summon Nature's Ally V
Summon Nature's Ally VI
Summon Nature's Ally VII
Summon Nature's Ally VIII
Summon Thanadaemon
Sustaining Legend
Swipe
Symbol of Healing
Teleport Object
Teleport Structure
Touch of Slime
Transport via Plants
Trap the Soul
Tree Stride
True Resurrection
Tsunami
Vinetrap
Viper Bomb Admixture
Vomit Swarm
Wall of Lava
Wall Of Thorns
Waters Of Lamashtu
Web
Web Bolt
Web Cloud
Winter's Grasp
Wooden Phalanx
Word of Recall
Look at all those s++~ spells...
And?
If you can fill your spell list with staple full caster spells, I don't really see your point.
Yes it doesn't get every spell?
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And, to claim they get "all the good ones" is subjective rubbish that doesn't color the class at all. Since the ones you quoted are "winners" then these are "losers" and casters who take them clearly aren't "winners," right? It's a brand of b+@&*@~~ I don't buy into.
If you're going to ban the summoner there's a lot of other classes you should ban too.
In fact, ban everything except the Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Slayer and Warpriest.
There's your game. Enjoy it.
No, that's not my game. Non of the other classes you "banned" create the same Kind of Problem by taking away other player's fun. Non of them packs so many toe-stepping abilities.
If the hunter had a comparable ability to the summoner's summon SLA in Addition to what he has now, he could be a similar Problem. Except the AC is more restricted than the eidolon.
It's straight up worse than a regular summoner at everything and makes you better at something you don't need to be better at. Synthesist looks bad because it magnifies the "Do the fighter's job better" thing ten times over, but I'd rather have a regular summoner if I was looking for pure power. Master summoner is the cray one.
The Synthesist archetype on the other hand is a good idea: poorly implemented. It is overpowered.
Sure the synth is weaker than the basic summoner. But that doesn't make it good. It just makes it the lesser problem.
Now I want to see someone play a summoner sans eidolon and see if they are on the sorcerer level. I am sure it won't happen. If I had some time I would suggest some post a build at level 11 like we did with a barbarian a while back, and see how it does in a party situation.
And, to claim they get "all the good ones" is subjective rubbish that doesn't color the class at all. Since the ones you quoted are "winners" then these are "losers" and casters who take them clearly aren't "winners," right? It's a brand of b~#*##~& I don't buy into.
???
I'm sorry if you got that jive from my post. I don't believe I stated that any spell other than the ones I quoted are "losers" and that casters who take them aren't "winners". I'm sorry that my terminology irked you. Please consider all instances of "winners" to be "highly effective full caster staples that are extremely good for their spell slot that many successful full casters happen to know and use frequently." I said that it doesn't get a lot of obscure spells because it's a class that came out later and it's spell list doesn't get updated frequently. That doesn't mean obscure spells are bad or that staple spells are the only spells that should be used.
So thanks for not buying into something I didnt say?
The only thing I've been trying to communicate is that the spells the Summoner does get are incredibly powerful full caster staples.
It doesn't get them all. It gets enough that it's clearly unbalanced for a 6th level caster.
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Scavion first you said they had access to all of the conjuration spells. Then when it was shown that it was only a 1/3 you replied with the "good ones".
Now that could imply all of the other ones are bad, or you could have meant that all of the conjuration spells they have or good or some other meaning.
I don't know what you are trying to say, but I can see how it could be read in a negative manner.
Whatever you were trying to say definitely got lost in translation.
I see you have explained yourself, but this explanation is not remotely similar to your conjuration statement.
Not being snarky--->When you(general statement) post here it helps to be as precise as possible because even when you speak directly people sometimes tend to interpret by what they feel rather than what you say, so when you are not clear it only makes things works.
When that 10,000gp can net you a free Wish or Miracle, it can kinda balance out. And even if you ignore Gate, Summon Monster 9 has some pretty nice outsiders on the list (including a 1 Wish/month Demon, and an Archon with 7th level divine casting potential).As a note, your summoned demon can't use wish. As noted in the context of the spell itself:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).So, yeah, you'd have to use planar binding or gate to get a wish-capable pet, which does have a price tag...and likely involves making extraplanar enemies, given the power of such entities.
At level 19 the summoner can use his summon power to cast gate instead of summon monster IX.
Gate does not summon creatures. It calls them so the SLA's with expensive components can be used. Him calling creatures instead of summoning. That is why it cost 10000gp to use.
???
I'm sorry if you got that jive from my post. I don't believe I stated that any spell other than the ones I quoted are "losers" and that casters who take them aren't "winners". I'm sorry that my terminology irked you. Please consider all instances of "winners" to be "highly effective full caster staples that are extremely good for their spell slot that many successful full casters happen to know and use frequently." I said that it doesn't get a lot of obscure spells because it's a class that came out later and it's spell list doesn't get updated frequently. That doesn't mean obscure spells are bad or that staple spells are the only spells that should be used.
So thanks for not buying into something I didnt say?
The only thing I've been trying to communicate is that the spells the Summoner does get are incredibly powerful full caster staples.
It doesn't get them all. It gets enough that it's clearly unbalanced for a 6th level caster.
It's not an unbalanced list. It's fine as is. It's nowhere near an issue as early access PrC cheese.
Now I want to see someone play a summoner sans eidolon and see if they are on the sorcerer level. I am sure it won't happen. If I had some time I would suggest some post a build at level 11 like we did with a barbarian a while back, and see how it does in a party situation.
I truly think that the powerlevels of summoner sans eidolon are closer than they are with eidolon.
But as I stated in an earlier post I would rather compare the summoner to the hunter. And there the summoner sans summon monster SLA is about the same power level as the hunter. With the main difference being that the eidolon rules are too flexible and allow too much cherry picking.
Compared to Bards, Magus, and Inquisitors?
Keeping in mind that each individual classes' features is supposed to make up for whatever discrepancies the spell lists have?
Bards-Skill Master, Enchantment/Illusion specialist, Inspire Courage, Spells Known
Magus-Skills(Int based), Close combat specialist, prepared casting(Though most is combat related)
Inquisitor-Skills(Kn./Social), All-rounder, Good at self buffing, Spells Known
Summoner-Skills(8 Skill points per level between himself and the Eidolon), Summoning Specialist, Spells Known, Summon Monster SLA 6-13 times per day.
Only the Bard isn't particularly fantastic in combat but it makes it up for being a great support and skills class. The Magus is very combat heavy and it's spell list reflects that with little room for utility.
The Inquisitor is probably the closest in comparison due to it's fantastic kit. And yet there are important distinctions in which the Summoner is just flat out superior in it's spell list due to early entry spells like True Seeing and others. Also keeping in mind the naturally limited nature of the Bard's list since enchantment doesn't function on a lot of creatures.
In addition, the Summoner gets extra value in pure spell power since it's got that SLA numerous times a day with a highly variable spell. Since most of it's comparable classes are also classes with Spells Known, having a high utility spell as a spell like ability is a huge advantage since it frees up room to take spells that may not be used all the time.
Now I want to see someone play a summoner sans eidolon and see if they are on the sorcerer level. I am sure it won't happen. If I had some time I would suggest some post a build at level 11 like we did with a barbarian a while back, and see how it does in a party situation.I truly think that the powerlevels of summoner sans eidolon are closer than they are with eidolon.
But as I stated in an earlier post I would rather compare the summoner to the hunter. And there the summoner sans summon monster SLA is about the same power level as the hunter. With the main difference being that the eidolon rules are too flexible and allow too much cherry picking.
The eidolon needs to be redone so that it and the summoner can use magic items instead of making them share the same slots. Maybe unchained will fix that.
...that's what I said, yes. Zaboom! said, even if you ignore gate, you can get a demon that can use wish once a month with summon monster IX, and I pointed out that if you used summon monster IX, he couldn't use his wish spell-like ability, but that you would have to use gate or planar binding in order to get a version that could.When that 10,000gp can net you a free Wish or Miracle, it can kinda balance out. And even if you ignore Gate, Summon Monster 9 has some pretty nice outsiders on the list (including a 1 Wish/month Demon, and an Archon with 7th level divine casting potential).As a note, your summoned demon can't use wish. As noted in the context of the spell itself:
Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).So, yeah, you'd have to use planar binding or gate to get a wish-capable pet, which does have a price tag...and likely involves making extraplanar enemies, given the power of such entities.At level 19 the summoner can use his summon power to cast gate instead of summon monster IX.
Gate does not summon creatures. It calls them so the SLA's with expensive components can be used. Him calling creatures instead of summoning. That is why it cost 10000gp to use.
I thought you were saying gate the actual spell not gate from the summon monster IX SLA because you also mentioned planar binding.
That is why I mentioned that the SLA Summon Monster IX actually gives access to Gate at level 19.
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As somebody who is currently playing a Master Summoner and GMing for a vanilla Summoner, I'd just like to say a couple things (keeping in mind that in both groups we allow the character to control his summons, the DMs prefer not to).
Two things regarding the length of turns. Thing the first: IF this was a problem, it is exactly the same kind of problem that comes with any other class that has summons, or cohorts, or animal companions, or... yeah. Thing the second: Preparation negates this issue completely. Know your summons. Have them in front of you, printed out, or just memorized. Of course it's gonna bog down the game if you toss out 1d3+2 small earth elementals and you haven't the foggiest idea what they can do or what their abilities are. If you aren't a prepared player, you shouldn't be playing a summoner. Your turn should be taking no longer than a minute or two, tops.
Also, Rhedyn is completely and totally correct. Yes, the class (particularly the Master Summoner!) absolutely relies on a meta throttle. A responsible player of a summoner, one who is playing for the enjoyment of the group in addition to his own funsies, isn't going to steal the fun from a game, because s/he won't spam a dozen summons per encounter despite having the ability to. A person playing a druid, a cleric, a wizard, a rogue, OR LITERALLY ANY OTHER CLASS OF ANY OTHER ALIGNMENT can suck the fun from a game just as easily. It's a team game, and while this is important to remember when playing any character of any class, it is PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT for summoners. We play this game to have fun. If you're vampire-ing the fun from the rest of the table, you're doing it wrong.
In summary, it is both the responsibility of YOU (the player) to know your limitations and what you have to do to be an efficient and enjoyable summoner, and YOU (the GM) to know enough if a player is capable of handling a summoner. If not, kindly point them to a class they'll enjoy that will ensure everyone else's fun.
I understand they don't get all of gate, just the part that allows them to pull creatures through.
I agree that a GM could make up a subplot based on using a spell, but I would also hope he would state something like that up front based on so they players know what to expect. It makes sense that casters would know how dangerous engaging with outsiders can be, whether that danger is great or small.
If you're going to ban the summoner there's a lot of other classes you should ban too.
In fact, ban everything except the Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Inquisitor, Investigator, Magus, Ninja, Paladin, Ranger, Slayer and Warpriest.
Pretty good list - largely removes the traps and the plot-derailers. I mean, after about five years I might start getting bored of the same classes, but we'll deal with that when the time comes.
Could we lose the Magus too, though? They irritate me somehow.