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I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.
I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":
Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.
These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.
While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.
If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).
There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.
craft (Wax)
I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.
I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":
Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.
These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.
While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.
If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).
There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.
he could just melt the wax with a new seal...
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There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal,Once you break it, you have to fake it.
(wax seals are often accompanied by ribbons or such; you don't just lift the wax off the paper)
I have several examples at hand in the archive of the library where I work, and I am fairly sure that even those with the ribbons can be opened without breaking the seal.
There are ways to make that more difficult, but an expert can open and reseal them without leaving a trace and without the need to remake the seal.
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There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal,Once you break it, you have to fake it.
(wax seals are often accompanied by ribbons or such; you don't just lift the wax off the paper)
I have several examples at hand in the archive of the library where I work, and I am fairly sure that even those with the ribbons can be opened without breaking the seal.
There are ways to make that more difficult, but an expert can open and reseal them without leaving a trace and without the need to remake the seal.
And the thread has been about which PF skill covers the knowledge said expert is using. I've been saying Linguistics. Not only to convincingly repair it should you break it, but to open it w/o breaking it in the first place (when even feasible).
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he could just melt the wax with a new seal...I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.
I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":
Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.
These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.
While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.
If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).
There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.
Craft jewelery to make a new signet ring from scratch.
Linguistic to find the right kind of wax (the King use purple wax, not the common red one ...)Disable device to place the new seal so that it cover the sign left by the old one.
Making a new seal isn't easy at all.
he could just melt the wax with a new seal...I don't see how Disable Device could be used in this case. The player isn't disabling anything or modifying anything in a way to cause a cease of function. Even if it were semi-relevant, using two skills for this one task seems unnecessarily layered. I really doubt it was RAI to use two separate skills here, and just because Linguistics, the skill for making forgeries, doesn't specify literally every single possible step to making forgeries doesn't mean the skill isn't implied to.
I would say Linguistics almost definitely because making a forgery could easily extend beyond just writing. In fact, here is the entry of an item called "Forger's Kit":
Price 200 gp; Weight 6 lbs.
These inks, pens, papers, templates for certificates, and tools for modifying or copying official seals facilitates the creation of counterfeit documents. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on Linguistic checks made for the purpose of making forgeries.
While it doesn't specify wax seals, they are still 'seals' that fall under the definition of forgery, e.g. imitating legitimate documents to fool someone.
If your GM or someone else doesn't accept this, then I would personally say that it would likely fall under the Craft skill because you're creating something; a replicated seal. Craft(something to do with wax or Art/Sculpting).
There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal. He is not changing the seal so that Lord Fansworth signet of a rampant griffin would seem to be his cousin Duke Fansworth seal with a rampant griffin with a crown on the head.
Craft jewelery to make a new signet ring from scratch.
Linguistic to find the right kind of wax (the King use purple wax, not the common red one ...)
Disable device to place the new seal so that it cover the sign left by...
the listed forger's kit is used to copy seals, that is what i was referencing.
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And the thread has been about which PF skill covers the knowledge said expert is using. I've been saying Linguistics. Not only to convincingly repair it should you break it, but to open it w/o breaking it in the first place (if even feasible).There is only a problem:
The OP character isn't modifying or copying official seals. He is opening and closing an already existing seal,Once you break it, you have to fake it.
(wax seals are often accompanied by ribbons or such; you don't just lift the wax off the paper)
I have several examples at hand in the archive of the library where I work, and I am fairly sure that even those with the ribbons can be opened without breaking the seal.
There are ways to make that more difficult, but an expert can open and reseal them without leaving a trace and without the need to remake the seal.
The relevant rules have been cited several tiems:
Create or Detect Forgeries: Forgery requires writing materials appropriate to the document being forged. To forge a document on which the handwriting is not specific to a person, you need only to have seen a similar document before, and you gain a +8 bonus on your check. To forge a signature, you need an autograph of that person to copy, and you gain a +4 bonus on the check. To forge a longer document written in the hand of some particular person, a large sample of that person's handwriting is needed.
The Linguistics check is made secretly, so that you're not sure how good your forgery is. As with Disguise, you don't make a check until someone examines the work. Your Linguistics check is opposed by the Linguistics check of the person who examines the document to verify its authenticity. The examiner gains modifiers if any of the conditions are listed on the table above.
There is nothing in them about opening or resealing wax seals.
Opening or resealing a wax seal isn't a forgery.So I don't see what basis you have for your position.
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Opening or resealing a wax seal isn't a forgery.
So I don't see what basis you have for your position.
Depends on how you define forgery. Since the CRB doesn't define it, let's use a common dictionary:
1. the crime of falsely making or altering a writing by which the legal rights or obligations of another person are apparently affected; simulated signing of another person's name to any such writing whether or not it is also the forger's name.
2. the production of a spurious work that is claimed to be genuine, as a coin, a painting, or the like.
So, you're using definition 1. I'm acknowledging that definition 2 is ALSO in play. Resealing a wax seal for the purpose of making the parcel look like it was never open is basically exactly what definition 2 is. You're producing a product that is falsely claiming to have been never opened. That's a forgery on every day that ends in a "Y".
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I think the answer to this question has more than one answer. If the player stated that he was opening the letter carefully and trying to preserve the seal so he could use it to reseal the letter, than disable device would work. If on the other hand he opened the letter without taking any precautions to preserve the seal then he needs to recreate the seal. As stated a simple mending cantrip will work. To recreate the seal not using magic may require several skills. Probably need some form of craft to recreate the wax and or ribbon, and then linguistics to duplicate the seal. The DC on the linguistics is going to probably be pretty high though.
People always seem to think that one skill is all you need to accomplish any single deed. Something require multiple skills to accomplish. Sometimes there is more than one way to accomplish the deed.
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I'll add here - at this late point - that I am the GM of the game in-question.
The reason this question came up in the first place is:
1. The NPC had mere moments to look through the mail, open it, read the letter, and re-seal it.
2. To do anything other than what I suggested in my original post (open it carefully and then melt it back together in such a way that it didn't look disturbed) would have resulted in the PC knowing her mail had been tampered with (either because my NPC would have had to have taken the letter, or left it open and obviously damaged).
My wife (the PC in-question) suggested a heated needle would have been very ideal, and was often used in the past for just such a thing (she's a history buff).
3. Pathfinder source materials don't list a relevant skill for this particular procedure.
Thus, I posed the question.
So far, I find Disable Device to be the most convincing argument for how this trick was carried out. Other ways would/could have merited uses of: Knowledge (nobility) to know the color, shape, texture, etc. of wax to be used and where to procure such items; Linguistics if the symbol were broken, and how to put it back together so that the picture made sense; a combination of the two and/or Craft skills to reproduce the necessary seal out of "whole cloth," and perhaps affix said symbol to a brand new letter (forged or otherwise) in such a way that looked exactly like the original.
I can definitely see how Knowledge (nobility), Linguistics, and Craft (variable) could and would be used IF my NPC had been interested in faking the whole thing. She wasn't. She was interested in getting the information and getting the hell out of there without anyone suspecting anything.
As it was, my wife's PC made the necessary Perception check against Disable Device in order to recognize that it had been tampered with.
Linguistics is the most appropriate skill as it deals in forgery of letter and documents and seals are major part of documents in the world. To be honest linguistics doesn't get much love so throw people with the skill a bone.
Disable device doesn't make much sense as the issue has nothing to do with locks or traps.
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Sounds like you handled it well, Broadhand.
Because PF rolls several related tasks under one skill, there are some odd tasks for which multiple skills might be applicable. At that point the GM has to make a call and move on with the game.
Forgery of documents was rolled into the Linguistics skill in PF; in 3.5 it was a separate skill. As such while work with seals is included within the skill it's on the periphery of the general theme of Linguistics. Meanwhile, Disable Device covers acts of physical sabotage that rely primarily on manual dexterity and that thematically fits preserving a physical seal better than the overall gist of the Linguistics skill.
I don't think it devalues Linguistics to use Disable Device for this task, or vice-versa. Both are useful skills with a number of applications.
I personally would probably allow a character to use their better skill of the two to avoid disturbing a seal, maybe at a -2 circumstance penalty for being an unusual application for the skill (speed for Linguistics, wax for Disable Device). Another option for dealing with overlap which I like but don't often implement is giving a +2 bonus to characters with training in multiple relevant skills (in this case, Linguistics and Disable Device).
I think the answer to this question has more than one answer. If the player stated that he was opening the letter carefully and trying to preserve the seal so he could use it to reseal the letter, than disable device would work. If on the other hand he opened the letter without taking any precautions to preserve the seal then he needs to recreate the seal. As stated a simple mending cantrip will work. To recreate the seal not using magic may require several skills. Probably need some form of craft to recreate the wax and or ribbon, and then linguistics to duplicate the seal. The DC on the linguistics is going to probably be pretty high though.
People always seem to think that one skill is all you need to accomplish any single deed. Something require multiple skills to accomplish. Sometimes there is more than one way to accomplish the deed.
I dont mean to trivialize your argument in a rude way... but... why does that matter? Whats the point of asking a player the specific way they open a letter for the purpose of giving them a punishmemt if theyre "wrong"?
Plus by going into the specifics, arent we getting really meta? Wouldnt we presume that a character who is skilled at making forgeries approaches the task in a practical way instead of forcing that knowledge out of the player?
I would agree that certain tasks would require more than one skill, but only if it were an extremely specific situation over an extended amount of time, or if the rules say so. For example, the rules state that a rogue must notice a trap(perception) before disabling it(disable device).
A task being "not easy" does not necessarily mean it should require multiple skills. If we require two skills for a really direct action (copying a single wax seal one time), why stop there? Why not require a perception check to remember the exact placement of the seal on the letter? Why not an appraise check to see if the wax is of high enough quality to be used again(instead of cheap and brittle)? Should I go on?
However one chooses to remake or reuse the seal, replicating an object with the intent to decieve its nature, origin or quality is literally the defintion of a forgery. So yes, it would probably fall under a skill that SPECIFICALLY mentions makng forgeries.
In the case of ambiguity, I personal would take a pragnatic approach. Why require a player to have a trained only INT skill AND an obscure craft skill to do a practical action when no such character exists? Maybe Im just old-school, but wouldnt it be better to have a Linguist OR a Waxworker BOTH be able to do this?
As for using Disable Device, Ive read all the posts vouching for it, but it still makes no sense. A wax seal is not a "device" and there is no situation in which it would make sense for a wax seal to be "disabled". Disable Device doesnt mention "disabling" any object even remotely similiar to this one. That is a lot of flexibility to lend to Disable Device. Can we not grant an equal or lesser amount of flexibilty to Linguistics?
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Is it just me, or has nobody in this thread suggested Profession (spy) yet?
Is it just me, or has nobody in this thread suggested Profession (spy) yet?
Do I get to roll over a week to earn money from Profession (spy)?
Is it just me, or has nobody in this thread suggested Profession (spy) yet?
That seems like a deceptively simple and decidedly bad-ass solution to this problem. It even fits the profession skill description;
Profession is actually a number of separate skills.Do I get to roll over a week to earn money from Profession (spy)?
Sure, why not? The amount of gold you receive could be dependent on the value of the information you get, or the continuing depths of your spying.
This also works with the profession description, because spying certainly seems like something that would be done over time (like a week) as opposed to a single scenario quick-check like Perception.You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession's daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.