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As I'm preparing to run Rise of the Runelords again, I've re-read the chapter on Sandpoint, the starting location for the campaign. Just the descriptions of the local residents, their relationships, and the businesses they run along with hints of how those things come into conflict with each other or relate to the upcoming events of the heroes' adventure could form weeks if not months of roleplaying encounters.
And that's ten or twelve pages in the appendix of a huge AP. If you consider that with the similar appendix on Magnimar--not to mention the entire sourcebook on Magnimar--you've got campaigns within campaigns, much of them based on roleplaying situations.
While a lot of the Adventure Path arcs feature prominent combat set pieces, they're nestled into a wealth of NPC and setting information that form the foundation for an incredible amount of roleplaying in addition to the action, mystery, and exploration of the APs' main plotlines.
As for the other stuff, I leave the responses to those who focus more on numbers. I'm more about the story and characters, so that's what leaves an impression on me.
And what APs have they or you played?
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If your players are looking for an incredibly unrestricted AP, Kingmaker is probably your best bet. It has lots of opportunity for hefty role-play and they get to found their own Kingdom in a stretch of 'unclaimed' territory in the River Kingdoms. Be ready to do a TON of work as a GM, though.
If they really want to play a world shaking, stopping big bad guys AP, Wrath of the Righteous is what you're looking for. In the end of it (if successful), you battle AND kill Deskari, who is a demon lord, and can even chase him down into the Abyss and kill him a second time for real. This is all in addition to both sealing the Worldwound and killing another demon lord, Baphomet. It's kind of unfortunate your players feel that the other AP end bosses are so lackluster, because they're pretty important people.
Rise of the Runelords features Karzoug, an ancient wizard king bent on retaking his old empire once he's fully reawakened.
Curse of the Crimson Throne you face Ileosa, a deranged queen hellbent (literally!) on being the most beautiful woman in the kingdom and making deals with devils.
Second Darkness you stop a massive meteor from crashing into Golarion and destroy an elf-turned-drow traitor to the surface elves.
Legacy of Fire features an efreeti lord who intends to reincarnate himself as one of the deranged spawn of Rovagug and wreak incredible destruction on Golarion all in the name of crying out his love for the Fire Queen, Ymeri.
And that's just the 3.5 APs, which is only 4/17 total! Almost every AP features a wealth of information pertaining to NPCs and locations so you can really delve into the story of the world and get wrapped up in the goings-on. This is the reason Pathfinder and Golarion have become my favorite D20 products/world.
Of course, if your players want to kill GODS, while there are certainly rules for mythic, Paizo has stated they do not intend to ever stat their gods up, and this might not be the setting for you. Of course, in a few of the others APs you get to kill demon lords (as mentioned), demigods and avatars of gods re-awakened (Serpent's Skull), and even beings on their way to ascension (Iron Gods).
I hope this helps and your players can come to really enjoy the APs for the incredibly quality work that they are!
Off the top of my head most APs have RPing parts...usually very important to the AP. But there is a base line assumption written into the APs that PCs will do a certain thing. But than again I don't how you can possibly write a adventure that covers the limitless things PCs can do. I mean a module has to be more of a outline with the GM adapting to the PCs action.
As to PCs not effecting the world in meaningful way...even before the rules of Mythic came out I would have to disagree with that.
Rise of the Runelords:
Curse of the Crimson Throne:
Kingmaker:
The Jade Reagent:
Skulls & Shackles:
Reign of Winter:
Wrath of the Righteous:
And that is just off the top of my head.
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Speaking as someone who is running several of the APs, with many to come, their worries about having to "stay on the tracks" are dependent on the GM.
The best way, if you have the time and inclination, is to treat the Path as framework. If it makes sense to replace a key NPC with a PC's hated rival, GO FOR IT. If the PCs befriend and redeem a foe, look at the future of the Path to see what this affects - you can almost always make it work. The Paths can survive just about anything, up to "we ditch this town and go look for orcs". (Some APs are more in danger of this than others.) And if you have an idea that needs tweaking, or a PC is trying something novel, come to the forum for your Path - someone will be eager to help.
The main thing is to get an idea of what sort of campaign the group wants. As long as you and they are on the same page, it should be smooth sailing. (Skull & Shackles excepted.) If you have any questions, ask away.
They have Baba Yaga's stats so fight her if you want:)
Well Baba Yaga's pet Goldfish was about to plunge the world into Eternal Winter, anyone who puts the fish down is definitely a hero. From the Adventure Paths I've read any of the Final Bosses being victorious usually means pretty bad things for the world or at least the section of the world they are active in.
12-13 battles in order to gain 1 level seems too big a number, the only AP that i remember doing that (and then at high-ish levels and not for all of them) was the shattered star AP where those 12-13 battles were complete trash for the PCs to walk over them.
What's the issue with WBL and adventure paths?
Sure most* of them give way too much treasure (something like 2xWBL) but that's happening for (usually) two very serious reasons and even then things get out of hand only if the players start crafting and get every bit of treasure.
*the only PF AP that i heard that has the players at below WBL is Carrion Crown
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To the OP:
As you are the GM, you have absolute control over all these concerns. The simplicity of it is this:
1) You, as GM, can level your players however you want to. If you think the AP does not have enough skill and role play opportunities, then add them to your hearts content. You have the control over this. just because the AP doesn't have enough of these factors written in for yours and your players tastes does not mean you cant add to it. Also, you should not expect every AP or dungeon module to have everything YOU want in it. None of them fit every GM's or players perfect idea of a pre-written campaign. If you just want to run it right from the books without any preparation or adjustment for you players, then that fault lies with you.
2) You, as GM, know your players better than any of us here on the boards. When you say you want a plot the PC's can control and change, guess what? Every single AP can have the PC's change the plot. I think what you are wanting is something pre-written by the paizo staff (that does not know your group any more than I do), that has 2-3 alternate story lines to account for PC ingenuity. Well, that is not a realistic expectation as these ap's are specifically 96pages and could not account for your's or my group's crazy choices.
Mass Effect and Dragon Age only have a few alternate paths to go down. What if your players felt 3 were not enough? They would bash those games rather than play them. And should you expect Bioware to give you 6 alternate paths and spend 6-7 years in development rather than 3? (Unrealistic expectations).
3) You can easily change the main baddies at the end of the AP's to be the (underling of Orcus) if you so desire. As a matter of fact, several of the AP's give a small section at the end where they talk about continueing the adventure. Of course that means YOU will have to do the work, but that is the price for being a GM, especially if you want your players talking about how bad-ass your campaign was a decade after it ended.
Please don't expect any company, much less paizo, to do these things. These same complaints can be said of WoTC in the 3.5 days by a factor of 10. The simple truth is, you have a solid foundation for a story presented in the AP's. How you personalize it for your group is your responsibility as GM.
CC
Very linear. They are 'paths'after all as JJ has stated
. Kingmaker somewhat different.
I found HOTDQ, even though it is linear, to have lot open choice for the pc's.... for reference in case you have played that for 5e.
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It depends on the AP and the module.
For instance, the first part of Reign of Winter is fairly linear - you are following a path (which caused me some troubles because if it was snowing constantly as implied then there'd be no trail to follow) but once you get to Waldsby things can open up a bit. The one part of the AP that provides you with multiple choices is the fourth book where you have three different options on how to recover one of the plot tokens.
(I recommend against Wrath of the Righteous. There are significant problems with the Mythic rules - though you should be able to run the group using the non-Mythic upgrade that's suggested.)
The APs provide a framework that can allow for roleplay solutions should you so desire to do this. The latter APs are perhaps a bit stronger in this regard than some of the older ones, but the anniversary edition of Runelords does fix many problems with their first AP. Also, there's a number of threads with people giving GM resources that can enhance the game further.
I haven't read your issues about wealth yet, i will try to read the thread and comment on that later.
Now for your other questions.
You have to understand that there are logistic reasons (space of the books) for not providing what you ask for, yes there are some choices in the APs but the APs pick one to go with, usually this is the most probable for the players to take.
That's for the kind of choices you mentioned (let's call them "what happens" choices), there are other kind of choices (let's call those "how it happens" choices) that can affect the flow of a book.
On the combat vs RP issue, again there are some logistic reasons since it takes much much less space to put encounters and statblocks than it would take for NPC personalities, goals, lines, counter lines etc.
That said, some APs have a fair amount of RP but requires you (as the GM) to extrapolate on the little info you are getting about the NPCs and the localation of the adventure in order to play out those RP parts in any real volume.
On the villans of the APs, sure in a few cases you get to fight the minion instead of the villan (carrion crown comes to mind) and in some other few cases the villan shows himself in the last book or even chapter (kingmaker comes to mind), some APs might do both (again carrion crown comes to mind), BUT in most APs neither of those two happen.
Now on whether the outcome of the APs change the world, well most APs' outcome changes the world and you get a couple of paragraphs on "continuing the adventure" and "what if" but at that point the adventure is over and so is the book.
So pick your APs very carefully, there are a few APs that is very difficult to do what you ask (from those i have played only shattered star comes to mind).
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What's the issue with WBL and adventure paths?
Sorry, I probably didn't explain that adequately. That's a separate issue I posted over here: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rxvw?Changing-from-DD-5th-sell-me-on-Pathfinde r
I don't mind about the treasure in APs - that's easy to take out.
My concern about APs is a) linearity and player choice, b) a perceived lack of 'rock and roll' final enemies.
Fixed your link above.
I haven't played Wrath of the Righteous yet (and for some reason all of the PbPs that I try to follow on these boards haven't gotten very far before dying due to loss of GM before even making it to the Mythic part), but the great majority of posters on these boards seem to be in agreement that Mythic Rules (the Pathfinder intended substitute for D&D 3.5 Epic Rules) are totally broken past Mythic Tier 2, and at the same time most of the encounters in Wrath of the Righteous after the 1st 2 books are severely underpowered to the point of being noticeably underpowered even for non-Mythic characters, and so none of your enemies (including the final bosses) will be 'rock and roll'; due to the brokenness of Mythic Rules, it is very hard for the GM to adjust their challenge up without turning the later chapters into rocket tag, where enemies have nothing in between Players ROFLstomp and TPK. Posters on these boards differ about the best solution for this, but the best one seems to be to just ban Mythic rules for PCs, and instead give them regenerating Hero Points (see this thread, which also contains a link to one of several other relevant threads), and even then you still need to adjust things, and reportedly the regenerating Hero Points aren't even needed if your players are strong optimizers.
With respect to other APs offering a lot of roleplaying, even not necessarily 'rock and roll' final bosses, I have been following PbPs of all released Paizo APs (and even a D&D 5th Edition AP), so here's my take, with links to the first page of each relevant PbP (this is one of the things I do instead of watching football -- yes, I'm a hopeless nerd, although I don't actually have any of these APs and haven't yet gotten a chance to play my own character in any of them):
Rise of the Runelords: The boss has been mentioned in posts above; this PbP has had pretty good roleplaying in it, although it seems mostly fairly linear, and although it was the first Golarion AP, Paizo has done the conversion from D&D 3.5 for you in Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition.
Curse of the Crimson Throne: Boss mentioned in posts above; this one has also been a roleplaying winner; not sure about linearity, but I would have to estimate that this one falls somewhere in the middle of the pack. Requires conversion from D&D 3.5, and could benefit from an Anniversary Edition (as done for Rise of the Runelords).
Second Darkness: World-shaking disaster that you have to prevent mentioned in posts above, and this PbP has had excellent roleplaying, near the top; this one does have a railroad in it, but it looks like one that branches out into an interesting track layout often enough to keep it interesting (and I plan to put this to the test with -- shameless plug here -- the character I have prepared for this AP, coincidentally having finished the build just late last night/early this morning). Requires conversion from D&D 3.5, and could benefit from an Anniversary Edition, and according to other posters on these boards, needs some other GM work to smooth out unwanted warts in it.
Legacy of Fire: Boss mentioned in posts above, and seems to have a modest amount of sandbox play time in the early stages (but probably gets more linear later on); this one has had pretty good roleplay, and the Gnome character in there is a lot more Gnome-y than the others I have seen. Requires conversion from D&D 3.5, and could benefit from an Anniversary Edition.
Council of Thieves: One of my favorites: Again, not the most Golarion-shaking boss (unless the PCs mess up), and you are trying to keep your part of the world from getting worse, but this one has vied strongly for first place for roleplaying, despite suffering from repeated GM loss. This one had a mixture of sandbox and linear segments, but the GMs purposely rearranged some of the chapters (as some people on these boards have recommended doing, although not necessarily the exact same rearrangement). People on these boards have reported less good things about the AP, so this particular PbP probably got lucky and had a string of really good GMs (although the delay before getting the most recent one really hurt). One of the things that impressed me was how this one started out WITHOUT railroading, with much of the party being composed of people who had ordinary jobs in Westcrown (and in some cases kept their day jobs going through much of the AP) feeling brought together to try to save their city. This is the first Pathfinder RPG AP, but from what I have heard, it still needs a bit of conversion work and could benefit from an Anniversary Edition even though it isn't technically a D&D 3.5 AP.
Kingmaker: Nation-building potential and sandbox nature mentioned above (definitely NOT a railroad unless you build it yourself -- just watch where you step); this one has certainly had a lot of roleplay.
Serpent's Skull: Nobody mentioned the final boss above (unless this post gets Ninja'd); not sure about the potential of this one -- the first chapter seems to take FOREVER to get through; players have made a decent shot at roleplaying, but opportunities have been limited due to where they have been stuck (isolated on an island) for so far the whole time. The cheesy railroad start is also objectionable, although not so much as in unmodified Skull & Shackles, but after being stuck on the island forever, a functioning railroad that led to a bridge off the island would be a welcome innovation.
Carrion Crown: May not have the most Golarion-shaking boss, but sure has a lot of roleplay, with a mixture of linear and sandbox segments (although the latter having time constraints).
Jade Regent: Nation-changing potential mentioned above, although by nature (since much of it is in a caravan) much of it is highly linear, at least until you get to your destination; this one is a substitute for another PbP that died due to GM loss; this one has certainly had roleplay, although be forewarned that in this particular PbP, some of it gets rather, uh . . . steamy.
Skull & Shackles: Boss has been mentioned in posts above; due to the theme and railroad start, I had dreaded this AP and taken forever to even start searching for a PbP to follow, and took a long time to find one even after starting my search, but the one I finally found has been up at the top for the roleplaying. Mind you, this one obviously got a massive and much-needed GM rewrite of the first chapter to make it possible to play characters that aren't just scum of the seas, as well as making the track layout of the railroad far more interesting than what the AP has as written (which has a really cheesy railroad start). The massive but welcome rewrite makes judgment of the linearity somewhat hazardous, but it seems that this AP even as originally written starts out linear in the first chapter (although as written, with a really cheesy start) and then branches out thereafter.
Shattered Star: Nobody mentioned the final boss above (unless this post gets Ninja'd); this PbP is a replacement for one that died due to GM loss, and is still in its early stages (the other one didn't get much farther); it has been hard to find a good PbP of this AP, but so far the roleplaying in this one seems quite good. Reportedly, much of this AP consists of a series of dungeon crawls (of which I have seen the first one, and it really stinks . . . in more ways than one), which are arranged in highly linear fashion (due to the nature of the Shattered Star itself), so keep that in mind.
Reign of Winter: A subset of bosses have been mentioned in posts above, and also highly linear (but with a high risk of getting literally lost) as noted; this PbP has had pretty good roleplaying in it.
Wrath of the Righteous: Boss has been mentioned in posts above (and isn't the only one), but as I said above in this post, this AP is really broken with regard to challenge level, and you just about have to ditch Mythic Rules, except for keeping them in NPCs that are described as using them, and replace them with regenerating Hero Points (or not even that, if your players are strong optimizers). Roleplaying potential has been hard for me to evaluate on my own, because more than any other, this AP has suffered multiple PbP deaths due to GM loss (as noted above, before even getting to the Mythic part); however, both this one and some of the ones I was following before have demonstrated good roleplaying, and in fact good roleplaying is just about required in the first part; unfortunately, this one, like Skull & Shackles without GM modification, suffers from a really narrow and cheesy railroad start; it is highly linear for as far as I have been able to follow it, but not sure about the later parts.
Mummy's Mask #1 and Mummy's Mask #2: Nobody mentioned the final boss above (unless this post gets Ninja'd), but the final boss and forces building up to him sound pretty harrowing; for roleplaying in these particular PbPs, you can follow the tale of the accursed archaeology professor, or the capers of a freewheeling party that includes a most loyal devotee of the adventures of Indiana Baggins. Was also following a 3rd AP that was developing (and planned from the start) as Monsters vs the Walking Dead, but it died due to GM loss. Seems to be highly linear. :-(
Iron Gods #1, Iron Gods #2, and Iron Gods #3: This one has suffered from PbP death due to GM loss, so I am in the early stages of evaluating 3 PbPs to see which 1 (or 2) I want to follow; not yet sure about linearity, but the boss is definitely one you don't want to get loose. The second one has the funniest take on an Aasimar I have seen so far.
Giantslayer (not yet released, so no PbP to follow, but should be coming real soon): No idea about the final boss or linearity, but my impression is that the final boss probably isn't going to be a world-shaker, despite being able to make local quakes.
Hell's Rebels (not yet released, so no PbP to follow): No idea about the final boss or linearity, but this has potential to be a satisfying sequel to Council of Thieves for players dissatisfied with that AP's lack of opportunity to change part of the world.
Tyranny of Dragons (Wizards of the Coast, D&D 5th Edition): No idea about the final boss, although naturally an awesome dragon seems like a good candidate; no idea about linearity; the roleplaying in here has been pretty good, more or less in the middle of the pack compared to the Paizo APs. This was the one I snapped up without even looking for any other PbPs of this AP.
* * * * * * * *
Note that linearity and roleplaying are going to depend not only upon the AP and the GM, but also on the players.
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Fixed your link above.
Thank you, I appreciate your help.
I'm really interested in a 'rewrite' of Skull & Shackles, as that one seems to be widely LOATHED by several of the players, everything they hate about PF in one place. Enemies that always fight to the death, not one single player choice, a ship race that the player's literally cannot lose... Not sure if any of that is true, I didn't enquire further, as the mere mention of it seemed to open some old wounds.
What?
From what i have heard skull and shackles (beyond 1st book) is one of the most Sandbox-y APs.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
That's very helpful, thank you. My hope is to gather some evidence to prove that PF adventures are not the joyless JRPG grind they are perceived to be. One player summed them up as being very similar to really old-school dungeon-crawls like Against the Giants/Vault of the Drow, only with much better production values. They perceive 3rd edition adventures to be nothing beyond: 'cutscene, dungeon, 12 fights, level up, cutscene, rinse and repeat'.
They're not expecting miracles, but if I can show them something that offers some built-in element of player choice, decision points, role-playing, or an epic final battle, I think I can win them over.
It's not a popular choice, but I'd suggest looking into Serpent's Skull.
There are five factions built in to the story and the expectation is you'll join one and have varying levels of rivalry with the other four. That might fit the mix you're looking for in terms of a meaningful, structured story whilst still allowing genuine player choice.
The third adventure is widely panned (there were problems, I believe, with the author meeting the deadline and it ended up being a little rushed and very samey) but I actually found it brilliantly adaptable - I used it more as a setting the players could explore, rather than a series of 'essential combats' the way it was written. I gave story awards for exploration and discovery, as opposed to the 'kill x members of the y tribe' conditions in the book.
The BBEG is as good as you can get really in terms of scope/power, so I think that might suit as well.
The downside though, is that the DM is going to have to put in a fair bit of work. Personally, I think that's inevitable - the more loosely structured the Adventure you're looking for, the more effort the DM is going to need to make.
Thank you, that one sounds like it might suit us, with a bit of work.
Yeah, dont get me wrong - it does take more work on the DM's part and (imo) would be less satisfying than most if you tried to run it "out of the box".
If you like npc driven game serpents is the one for you. It really need GMing well. Ours wasn't and it felt like the pc's had no influence on the plot. Like all things, effort in equals reward out
Fixed your link above.
Thank you, I appreciate your help.
I'm really interested in a 'rewrite' of Skull & Shackles, as that one seems to be widely LOATHED by several of the players, everything they hate about PF in one place. Enemies that always fight to the death, not one single player choice, a ship race that the player's literally cannot lose... Not sure if any of that is true, I didn't enquire further, as the mere mention of it seemed to open some old wounds.
Yeah I am curious about that summary, as it does seem to be contrary from what I have heard. Are they basing this on someone GMing it, or something else? Ultimately the GM is going to be the contributing factor on how well something is received.
I can't help you much with Serpent's Skull (other than to say that based upon the example I have seen, don't do this one first), but for Skull & Shackles, see the PbP I linked above (and also take the time to read the first parts of the Discussion and Recruitment threads, and the Campaign Info page, and the players' character sheets). That one PbP turned me from loathing to loving. You might not want to do this one first due to the massive rewrite (including a ton of GM-added material) needed in the first chapter, but if you do want to run it, first you might want to send a PM to DM Barcas, although it is certainly possible to come up with your own massive rewrite if you have enough time.
By the way, a similar massive rewrite of the beginning would also be good for Wrath of the Righteous, and I have heard of this being done, but the only example that I saw that even partially did this (which was actually quite good) died due to GM loss. Problem is, Wrath of the Righteous reportedly also needs massive rewriting in the last at least 2/3 of the whole AP (which still doesn't explain why so many PbPs of this have died due to GM loss, since none of them have ever gotten to that point -- seems like a cursed Adventure Path).
I personally didn't think the beginning of Wrath was bad, although I would warn newcomers from playing that path due to issues with Mythic which show up around the third volume.
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While I think it's great everyone has risen to the defense of the AP's, I think the OP is headed for disappointment. No AP is going to give him what he's looking for.
If you're looking for an AP where you "change the world" you won't find one. Golarion is a shared world that houses a product line that serves thousands (?) of paying customers. They're not going to put the fundamental structure of the world in the hands of lunatic DM's and PC's. Most of the AP's are going to be about keeping the world from getting worse (a la Lord of the Rings.)
Ditto on the player choice thing. If you're looking for some scenario where the pc's persuade a major or significant opponent to change sides in chapter 2 and it changes the outcome in chapter 4, that's not happening. It's simply not practical to account for that much variability in the space and format available. And if they tried the choice would be so mindlessly simple or meaningless that it would be indistinguishable from a railroad.
You know what produces these experiences? GM's. If this is what your players really want, your only choice is a homebrew campaign. If there is some published content of this nature out there that has these features a) why aren't you using it? and b) could you tell us about it because we'd really like to see it.
Golarion is a rich world that's been built to fit the game system it supports and it does an excellent job in its primary purpose: support a diversity of mini-campaigns (AP's) and modules in the complete range of fantasy genres in one admittedly overly busy place. Could you take an AP and enhance it with the features you want and make it your campaign, your Golarion? Yes, you can. Is it a heck of a lot of work? Daunting even? Yes, yes it is. But welcome to the party, pal 'cause that's what the rest of us are facing too.
If you do decide to give it a try, though, you won't be alone. Find an AP with material that engages you and your players and come to the requisite forum. You're find all kinds of folks trying to make it work for them. And maybe, just maybe you'll get some interesting ideas.
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I don't mean to sound hostile, but Pathfinder does have those things. Every bullet point there is something easily within the scope of the Paths - explicitly present, in some cases. I was gearing up to present evidence and examples, but I needed a bit more time and a better understanding of what your players were looking for.
Sorry. I wish I'd been more helpful. :(
1) very linear adventures that were nothing beyond '12 fights, level up, repeat'
2) no encounters that could be resolved through role-playing rather than combat
3) no character choices or decision points
4) thematically weak villains, you never fight the Big Bad, only his chief underling
5) some kind of moral decision or a choice of the 'lesser of two evils'
6) like an uneasy alliance between former enemies or the chance to redeem a former foe
1) The "very linear" is something completely different than the "12 fights, level up, repeat" and while yes pathfinder APs are quite linear in regards to the story but the vast majority of them aren't "12 fights, level up, repeat" (and as i have said before in this thread, 12 is usually too big of a number).
2) Pathfinder APs/modules have ton of those (i will try to look for examples later), just don't expect to be able to talk your way through the big boss of a book, although there had been a few cases where PCs could get an advantages based on RPing against the big boss of a book.3) Yeah that usually isn't done in PF APs/modules. Ok i must elaborate a little on that, there are character choices and decision points but those are either a) of no real consequence or b) the result is scripted and the PCs have the illusion of choice*. Really divergent paths can't be done in APs/modules**.
4) That almost never happens, the PCs will fight the big bad of the adventure, there have been a couple of cases where that big bad turned out to be lame, or that the big bad appeared very late in the story but i can only think of one AP where you fight the underling instead of the big bad (the Carrion Crown AP).
5) That doesn't happen often, in fact it almost never happens, remember that there are classes in the game that can't work in those situations, and while yes it has happened in APs but it's not something that should happen in every AP.
6) Again the alliance with former enemies doesn't really happen because those enemies tend to be either evil (so we go to the previous issue) or dead because the PCs killed or both. Oh yes redeeming happens but almost always happens after the battle.
*whether that is done right or not is another matter, i believe that it's usually done right
Let's take for example the witcher 2 game, that video game is seperated in 3 acts, at the end of the 1st act you make a choice that leads you to completely different acts 2 and 3. If you make the choice A in the end of the first chapter you get to play acts 2a and 3a, if you make the choice B in the end of the first chapter you get to play acts 2b and 3b. Now acts 2a and 2b are very different, while it's the same story you get to play it from completely different angles with most of the NPCs being different, the locales being different, most of the quests being different etc, the same is true about acts 3a and 3b.
Now imagine trying to do that in an adventure path, let's say that books 1 and 2 are act 1, books 3 and 4 are act 2 and books 5 and 6 are act 3, Paizo would have to publish two different sets books 3, 4, 5 and 6 with little material that can be used on both sets, do you see that as something viable?
It's also done in a very small case in the hungry storms (a book i didn't like when i played Jade Regent for other reasons).
The book 3 of Jade Regent AP has 3 parts, and in the first part the PCs have to decide which of the paths they will travel, both paths lead to the same destination. That ended up with the players playing half of the printed part 1 of the book because the other half printed stuff of part 1 was for the other path.
I think that you know can understand why this doesn't happen often and why it doesn't happen on a larger scale.
I know that you are asking about Paizo's AP's. Have you considered looking at some 3PP Adventures?
A few options you could look at:
From TPK Games:
The Reaping Stone followed by The Bleeding Hollow: These adventures are tough. Players need to play smart, Decisions that they make matter and the BBEG is a Big BBEG. Also, there's another adventure coming out soon from them that follows Bleeding Hollow.
From Frog God Games:
-Razor Coast is a HUGE pirate sandbox with lots of other Supporting Books.
-The Slumbering Tsar Saga is... HUGE. This is another sandbox. Imagine the wasteland created by a massive battle in the past. Nothing grows. Monsters have moved in. Peril reigns. Everyone is out only for themselves. I have been reading this one recently and it is devious! Lots of choices for players.
-Rappan Athuk is Rappan Athuk. I'm not the one to tell you about this one, just look around the internet. This is Rappan Athuk updated for Pathfinder.
From Fire Mountain Games:
-Way of the Wicked where the players get to play the Villains! Throne of Night is his newer AP, but it's taking a LONG time coming out.
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You say you want to be convinced about pathfinder. You say you like many of us are disappointed with 5E because of the minimal support. Well I say look at the other options out their right now, if support is important to you none of the other game systems gets anything close to what PF gets. 13th age has a cool world but they really only have half a dozen products out their. Their are a number of first edition clones such as C&C, OSRIC, DCC and S&W or you could go with something non-d20 like Numerera but again all these put out a few products a year I think if we wait on WOTC they will do the same for 5th edition. Then we have pathfinder I am looking at 4 shelves of books made just for pathfinder 2 are all of paizo's own products and 2 are 3pp. Paizo has released 15 AP's with 2 more coming each year if you can't find what you are looking for in all that I don't know what other game system will have what your looking for. No they don't stat out the gods but their are lots of stated out baddies available including Kaiju, demon lords and runelords.
And if Golarion isn't your cup of tea Frog god games offers the Lost Lands. And Kobold press has given us Midgard. Both of these are tradition fantasy worlds and if you like your worlds a little different LPJ designs had Neo-exodus and Obsidian Apocalyspe. Alluria has a cool setting called Cerulean Seas which is underwater, Rite publishing offers Jade Oath and Coliseum Morpheoum and the list goes on. Their are lots of cool AP's out their as well such as Rise of the Drow, Zeitgeist and Way of the wicked. Pathfinder offers in pure volume what no other currently supported system does.
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Several points:
Pathfinder APs don't change the world because then all the previous published setting material would be invalidated every 6 months. Pathfinder/Golarion is intended to be a relatively static world in direct response to customers' general dislike of "realms changing events." Wrath of the Righteous is about close as Pathfinder has come to changing the initial setting based on the outcome of an AP.
APs are fairly linear and limited in scope (from the standpoint of decisions PCs make that drastically change the outcome) because they only have 6 issues in which to put ~15 levels of adventuring. As a result, most of the space gets taken up with background info, combat encounters, and stats. Paizo could lower the ending level of an AP and include much more of the stuff you're interested in (decision points and roleplay), but they're very hesitant to mess with the current AP model because it works very well for them. Roleplaying is not something, IMO, that lends itself well to scripted publication. Instead, it's something that happens at the table, more or less spontaneously. That's why they include background information on all the NPCs the PCs are likely to interact with.
APs aren't some much products that are intended to be a "one size fits all" product to be used out of the box. They're more like a kit that you're expected to add too, modify, and change to your liking. In fact, that's their greatest strength.
The OP has said several things that make me concerned that Pathfinder APs aren't the thing he's looking for, but I'm unable to come up with anything else that fits the bill better. For example, Paizo draws some inspiration from old school modules like Against the Giants, which OP implies is not the kind of thing his group likes.
The only other thing I can think of is to maybe run the Savage Tide AP from Dungeon magazine. It has some of the elements OP is looking for (moral ambiguity, RP alliance building, epic final boss, etc.), but it's still fairly linear.
-Skeld
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This post from James Jacobs is on a similar topic (the "lack" of roleplay in APs) and you might find it helpful:
I don't think it's a failing of the Adventure Path at all. As I've said before... it's an Adventure Path, not an Adventure Lots of Possible Paths. There IS a pretty narrow assumption, a "railroad" if you will, that the heroes of any one AP will be following, even for ones like Kingmaker that have a pretty strong element (or illusion) of being sandboxy. Realizing that the type of game you might want to run isn't an Adventure Path is an important realization to come across.
That said, an Adventure Path can STILL help you, even if you don't intend to run one. The format and method of presentation work great for any campaign—and if your'e making one for your own group, you don't even have to write things out fully—you can incorperate elements from elsewhere and cobble things together to make a patchwork of pre-written encounters and NPCs that you create along with others you borrow from a dozen other sources. That's how I've traditionally run my campaigns, many of which have been adapted or adjusted in one way or another into Adventure Paths themselves (Curse of the Crimson Throne, for example, or elements of Serpent's Skull and Rise of the Runelords, for example).
And frankly, using phrases like "a generation raised into the 'Dungeons and Diablo' style of gaming" is quite unfair. Especially when you step back and look at the early D&D adventures, which were born out of wargaming roots where there often was less story than what we get in games like Diablo. Heck, I'm currently running "Temple of Elemental Evil" which is a GREAT adventure... but half the NPCs you meet in the adventure don't even have names! I've had to write names as I come up with them into my book when the PCs decide to, say, visit the leatherworker in Hommlet, or dare to ask a captive what the name of the leader of the bandits at the Temple itself is named.
The game has ALWAYS left significant portions of the world to the GM to decide and design. Comparing modern adventures to those of yore, I think that modern adventures are actually providing a lot more than before, in fact. I'm just not seeing the validity of a "Diablo has ruined gaming" at all... I know that's not exactly what you were saying, but still...
James' earlier response to a GM on this question was that maybe what the GM needed was a detailed campaign setting, not an Adventure Path, per se.
-Skeld
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I don't mean to sound hostile, but Pathfinder does have those things. Every bullet point there is something easily within the scope of the Paths - explicitly present, in some cases. I was gearing up to present evidence and examples, but I needed a bit more time and a better understanding of what your players were looking for.
Sorry. I wish I'd been more helpful. :(You've been very helpful.
It would be nice to have some examples, to save me reading all the APs (or even one-offs, doesn't have to be APs).
Something I can get back to them and point to, and say 'look, this does exist, now trust me to add in stuff like this in other areas'.
Some thing like... off the top of my head...
- a final battle where you fight Orcus rather than his chief henchmean
- a major encounter that can be resolved without fighting
- some kind of moral decision or a choice of the 'lesser of two evils', like an uneasy alliance between forme enemies or the chance to redeem a former foe
From what I can see, the APs do have nice little gazeteers on towns and gods and things, but they're not really connected to the adventures themselves. If I can offer them _something_ that bridges the gap, I think I can fill the other gaps myself.
All right, can do! I need a day or two before I can go into enough detail (I have a session tonight), but I can find plenty of examples. All the things you listed there should be represented, and I'll find some examples for players' other concerns. I'll go over the Paths (shouldn't be a problem, I know them pretty well) and find enough to satisfy them (hopefully)!
/PF fangirl
Pathfinder in comparison to D&D 5th definitely has the ability to be very focused on numbers, there is much more that goes into creating your character from a Numbers perspective and a lot more to keep track of. However I find the argument that because the game allows for more focus on technical aspects that it detracts from Roleplay to be a very poor argument. Roleplaying occurs when players immerse themselves in the setting and interact with NPCs that feel very real and that can easily be achieved even with a complex system like Pathfinder. Pathfinder might cater to players who like a combat heavy environment but it doesn't have to, you can choose to omit combat encounters and modify them as you see fit.
The Adventure Paths serve as an excellent framework for anything you want to do with them, but if you want a world that dynamically changes at the whims of the players then you really need to write your own adventures because there is no way any company can account for as much variation as such... or you need to be able to change the adventure on a whim.
Creative Director
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It's nice that James Jacobs engages with the fans, but he always strikes me as an 'I'll defend my game to the death!!!' kind of guy, even if nobody is really attacking it. And that thread pretty much spells out that what PF fans want is a combat-heavy game, which is great for those who like it, but not what we were looking for.
Can't help it. I'm a gamer like the rest of us, and gamers get passionate about their favorite games. When said favorite game is also one you helped create and is one that ALSO lets you pay the bills... getting defensive about it kinda comes naturally. And this being the internet, you'll have to admit it's pretty easy to get used to people attacking other people or whatever for plenty of reasons.
Anyway, yeah, it IS a combat-heavy game. Which is why I try in the adventures I write and develop to make sure that those reading it keep in mind that you shouldn't abandon non-combat stuff as well.
It's not for everyone, and I don't presume to push it on those who prefer other games. But if someone DOES like the game but wants more RP out of it... it's there. I'm doing what I can to help.
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'Volume' is what kind of attracted us to PF, yes. The concept of a cleaned-up and improved 3rd edition has it's appeal, but also the 3rd edition baggage (including the perception, true or not, that it's all about the stats and 'DPS' and 'builds' rather than role-playing).
I understand what you're saying. Personally, I don't focus on builds or DPR because that's not my style. 3e is a numbers-heavy game and there's no getting around that. The easiest way to avoid playing in a numbers-heavy game is to play with a different set of rules. For that purpose, I prefer BECMI. If you're not familiar with Old School gaming, you should look into it as an alternative.
-Skeld
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You seek playing in a world where the PCs actions have lasting change. I get that, and Pathfinder can provide that experience, but you aren't likely to find it in the pre written adventure paths, because by their nature they have to be played by a wide audience. That's not to say there aren't some exceptions to that, Shattered Star for example is assumed to take place after Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, but for the most parts, the APs provide blank slates to adventure in.
Personally I share your desire to play in a game like that, and we use Pathfinder to do so. I even created a thread a while back to discuss that playstyle and see how commonplace it is. But the best way to get that is going to be to write your own adventures where you can personalize and interconnect everything. I love playing in new campaigns today where I can see the lasting effects that my group/character had on the world in a campaign from 5-10 years ago. The world you choose to use doesn't really matter, could be Golarion, or Faerun, or Oerth, or your own homebrew, just make it your own. But unfortunately, the APs played straight out of the book won't provide you with what you are looking for.
As for not fighting the big bads and not being provided non combat options, that's just flat out not true. I suggest you go by your friendly local gaming store/Barnes and Noble/Books a Million, and grab a copy of the Runelords hardcover anniversary edition and read a decent bit of it, you will see there is ample opportunity for roleplay and NPC interaction, and multiple ways to handle many situations.
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Ways you change the status quo of Golarion by AP:
Rise of the Runelords:
Curse of the Crimson Throne:
Second Darkness:
Kingmaker:
Jade Regent:
Skull & Shackles
Iron Gods:
There are of course others.