assassins are not useless

[Chengar Qordath]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

If you have to make up rules and lower enemy numbers to make a class function, then that class objectively sucks.

Indeed. If you have to completely rewrite the world just to make a class viable, then it's not really viable. I'm fond of calling that the "Aquaman Defense," since it works on similar logic to saying Aquaman is the strongest member of the Superfriends as long as every single encounter happens against sea creatures while you're in the ocean. Sort of like how the assassin is strong so long as you only face solo encounters of enemies with abysmal fortitude saves, low perception, no special senses, and an abundance of cover.

(Before anyone derails the topic, I'm aware that Aquaman is badass in modern comics)

[kestral287]

Chengar Qordath wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

If you have to make up rules and lower enemy numbers to make a class function, then that class objectively sucks.

Indeed. If you have to completely rewrite the world just to make a class viable, then it's not really viable. I'm fond of calling that the "Aquaman Defense," since it works on similar logic to saying Aquaman is the strongest member of the Superfriends as long as every single encounter happens against sea creatures while you're in the ocean. Sort of like how the assassin is strong so long as you only face solo encounters of enemies with abysmal fortitude saves, low perception, no special senses, and an abundance of cover.

(Before anyone derails the topic, I'm aware that Aquaman is badass in modern comics)

Screw modern comics. The Brave & The Bold cartoon had the most awesome Aquaman. PLATELEEEEEET!

But on a serious note, this. And if the world has to be totally rewritten to make another class viable and another class still does it better then you've really got a problem.

Seriously, I'll say it again. Alchemist is the king of the pure Sneak Attack classes.

[Bandw2]

I still say a tactician fighter, who gets stealth synergy before entering the PrC might actually be doable. he also get's more reason to get int, and 4+int skill points.

if he went weapon finesse route, and just got 13 strength for power attack, he could both get into position and survive until the party arrives(who are closer by do to stealth synergy).

or possibly just go strength route and just get a few points of dex for AC *shrug* tons of ways to build it offensively.

[Petty Alchemy]

If there's only one DM, he cannot simultaneously run a split up group.

So you're waiting for the Assassin to do his thing, then he waits for you to do your thing. I guess for some people that might be fun? In general people prefer the least amount of waiting.

[Oni_Sloth]

I have run split up groups, its not impossible. Its just like running a normal round of combat. you jump from person to person like normal, just one person is somewhere else, doing something different.
I have found a timer is great for speeding up combat and rounds. I sometimes use a 30 second hour glass where a player needs to say what they are doing before it reaches 0 or they get skipped. This is not done often at my table, and i always ask everyone at the table before i bring it out.

[Bandw2]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

If there's only one DM, he cannot simultaneously run a split up group.

So you're waiting for the Assassin to do his thing, then he waits for you to do your thing. I guess for some people that might be fun? In general people prefer the least amount of waiting.

in all honesty, the 3 rounds of watching can be done almost instantly in OOC time, as you say "i observe target" GM rolls everything needed for those 3 rounds, and then you make your attack roll or blow your whistle that your cover has been blown.

[BigP4nda]

Ugh this is the equivalent of arguing whether Cecil or Cloud is better -_-

[DominusMegadeus]

BigP4nda wrote:

Ugh this is the equivalent of arguing whether Cecil or Cloud is better -_-

Except in this case, Cecil and Cloud are in the same game, have the same categories of stats, face similar enemies and one of them performs better is all categories.

[kestral287]

Same character concept. Village was slaughtered by an evil Sorcerer-king, they want to kill him in revenge. Set in Golarion. High fantasy with all that entails.

Same player (me) will build both versions of the character, so assume equivalent system mastery; high end of moderate.

Single-person game to make life easy for you. Straight RAW from the books, all Pazio-published material available. No houserules at all.

Do whatever you feel is right in terms of difficulty; you're the GM.

[Imbicatus]

This is not a discussion about house rules, tone, character backstory, difficulty of the game, or anything else except mechanics.

If you want to design encounters to characters, then it doesn't matter if the character is a commoner with straight 8s in ability scores or a demigod gestalt fighter//cleric//wizard//monk with 25s in all ability scores.

This is a discussion about mechanics, not special snowflakes or gm favoritism.

What does matter is designing an encounter that would challenge ninja 5/assassin 5 that could not be completed by a vivisectionist alchemist 10.

Unless the key to defeating the encounter is a great and ancient prophecy fortold that the big bad is unable to be harmed except by a ninja 5/aassassin 5, I don't see any way of making that happen.

[voideternal]

Assassins make pretty good NPC enemies. They are evil. They act alone, can attack anywhere anytime, and they have a weak Save-or-Die which can be scary because a natural 1 is always possible, but in expectation, the PCs will survive.

Also, I found that the Death Attack's DC is slightly misleading. The Assassin uses Death Attack when the PCs don't expect it coming. The DC for Death Attack might be a lousy 16, but it's coming from the librarian in a sleepy town targeted at the unbuffed party wizard, when the other party members are doing other things in town like gathering information or shopping. This is stronger than the DC 18 Dex-poison that the wizard took yesterday in the dungeon, when he was fully buffed with heroism and bear's endurance.

[Abraham spalding]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

BigP4nda wrote:

Ugh this is the equivalent of arguing whether Cecil or Cloud is better -_-

Except in this case, Cecil and Cloud are in the same game, have the same categories of stats, face similar enemies and one of them performs better is all categories.

But cloud does get materia... so he has that going for him which is nice.

;p

[Imbicatus]

Abraham spalding wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

BigP4nda wrote:

Ugh this is the equivalent of arguing whether Cecil or Cloud is better -_-

Except in this case, Cecil and Cloud are in the same game, have the same categories of stats, face similar enemies and one of them performs better is all categories.

But cloud does get materia... so he has that going for him which is nice.

;p

And don't even get me started on that limit break cheating he does...

[havoc xiii]

Of course there is more to it than just numbers, but if every single combat has to be tailor made to fit your character something is wrong with that character.

[Bandw2]

I also feeling like pointing out that i don't see what is hamstringed by having player's avoid bad classes? if anything it frees up GM time to make better encounters altogether, not for specific people.

[Grimmy]

Assassin is a one level dip for an arcane trickster or something like that. Other than that, NPC.

[master_marshmallow]

I would actually love to see a version of the assassin from 3.5, with arcane spell progression.
The slayer more or less is a better version of the rogue with the assassin thrown in plus full base attack.
Use it.