assassins are not useless

[Stalarious]

Ok,
So ALOT of people believe that the assassin is a useless prestige class however I disagree. It is a tactical class its not like a spell flinger that can walk into a room and go "o baddies" and proceed to blow them all up with spells. Or the fight....well lets face it if I have to explain the fighter then you probably play a typical fighter to a t. None of these tactics are bad its just that the assassin is teamwork essential.
If you sneak in and find a good spot to watch a enemy for three rounds.(out of combat) then your team comes in after you snk atk your target then the assassin is invaluable. However and most typically everyone runs in same round as the scout. Which other then trap finding makes scouting useless. If you can find a group that understands subterfuge then the assassin is amazing. If you plan on building one I highly suggest starting out ninja because of vanishing trick to help you find the perfect vantage point to stalk your prey. If you agree or know of ways to better help the assassin class please i would love to hear your opinion.

[Rynjin]

I have a hard time figuring out:

A.) How you could ever think spendng 3 rounds to throw out a hiariously low Fort DC Save or Die is anything but a waste of time.

and

B.) Why you would suggest going Assassin from NINJA, the class who gets a BETTER VERSION OF ASSASSINATE as an Advanced Talent.

There is no universe where the Assasin is a worthwhile PrC. Especially not when he Ninja and Slayer exist.

Or, hell, any spellcaster.

Why is spending 3 rounds to (probably fail to) Assasinate a guy even considered an opton when simply Suffocating the m@%%&!&#*+%@ is an option?

That's not tactics, it's inefficiency.

[Stalarious]

Well for me three rounds is not long first off its only 18 seconds real time. And secondly the reason suggest ninja was stated above the assassin is a prestigue class that you have to think tactically it has a ability that allows you to perform a death atk and the walk away that allows you to kill someone and never have to enter combat. So that annoying wizard you have to kill could be killed and your team would be a succes with lout ever rolling unit. I am not saying they are a catch all that's why I like them I am saying that if you have a group that is ok with running stealth tactics then this guy is a good option for that playstyle.

[kestral287]

Is this our new version of the Rogue Thread?

If you're sneaking in then camping there for three rounds, what kind of actual scouting are you accomplishing for the party? Scouting involves relaying information; unless your Wizard constantly casts Telepathic Bond or got it Permanencied that doesn't really work. Or you sneak in, survey the situation, sneak out, talk to your party, sneak back in, wait for three rounds, then your party comes in, then you do something...

Yeah. I'm all for tactical combat. I'm all for the sneaky guy doing his sneaky thing. But that just sounds like I'm going to be spending a lot of time before each combat sitting there bored while one guy and the GM throw out Stealth/Perception checks.

But okay. Let's assume all of that pans out. You give your party the intelligence, you survey the target, you perfectly set up for your attack. This is what happens:

Surprise round! You get a chance to paralyze or kill somebody. With... 10+Assassin level+Int mod.

Why would this character have a notable Int mod again? Unless you're interested in making a character that needs every stat in the game (with Ninja/Assassin the best you can dump is... Wis, so hope nothing ever targets that Will save? And Strength if you shell out three feats, I suppose). And especially early on, that DC is going to be extremely low. At level six you're pulling out the equivalent of a first-level spell for a Wizard, except the Wizard has third-level spells and an Int mod of note. Assuming equal Int investment, your DC will match the Wizard's at Ninja 5/Assassin 6, beat the Wizard at 7+... except that "assuming equal Int investment" is an enormously false assumption.

Also you have to target the Fort save. No flexibility there.

Also you have to actually have stealthed right behind the target, because the surprise round is either move or standard. Admittedly, there's an item for that.

But okay, you ambush one enemy (let's say there are four). You've neutralized a quarter of the encounter. Likely less, to be honest.

You are now directly on top of the other three and the surprise round is over, while your allies just entered the encounter. They have no reason not to hammer you into the ground and every reason to do it. You have d8 hit dice and light armor.

What do you do if it fails? If you're detected one of the many, many rounds in which you're sneaking about, or if your target hits the DC, or if you get ambushed? How do you contribute meaningfully in any of the myriad situations that aren't your ideal?

Very careful management of Assassin can at least deal with many of these problems... which makes you 'more useful than the Rogue', which is not the same as 'actually good'.

Consider what a Beastmorph-Vivisectionist Alchemist could do with the same situations:

-The same sneaking capabilities, except potentially augmented by a tumor familiar or a mutagen.
-The ability to use the tumor familiar to relay information to the party
-Vanish, Invisibility, and Greater Invisibility as extracts
-Various other excellent buffs as extracts
-Pick-and-choose from the Beast Shape list for buffs via mutagen. Flight is a powerful option. Pounce is even more powerful. Translate Pounce to "the ability to move and full attack in the surprise round without an item"
-A buzzsaw-of-death style Sneak Attack if you're even moderately optimized toward mauling things. No save required, just death.
-Failure option is "maul the crap out of them anyway".

The Assassin is a marked improvement over the baseline Rogue. But it isn't good.

[thegreenteagamer]

An assassin can death attack at sixth, a ninja requires tenth.

I don't know about you Rynjin, but for me, that's about four to five months' gametime difference in access. I don't want to wait a third of a year extra to use an ability I based my entire character on.

Yeah, in the grand scheme of things a ninja or slayer death attack is better, but I play to enjoy my toys ASAP. Later levels aren't guaranteed. Characters die, games fall apart, etc.

[thegreenteagamer]

That being said, yeah, overall the assassin is terrible and the death attack is kinda crummy. I mean if it's what you want, getting it ASAP is important, but, overall it's pretty meh.

[Ipslore the Red]

No one ever said they were useless. Just a lot less useful than not being an assassin.

[Lemmy]

Useless? No... Of course, not. They are just really freaking bad!

But they can have their uses... In the same way that even commoners can be useful.

thegreenteagamer wrote:

An assassin can death attack at sixth, a ninja requires tenth.

I don't know about you Rynjin, but for me, that's about four to five months' gametime difference in access. I don't want to wait a third of a year extra to use an ability I based my entire character on.

Honestly... I prefer to wait another 3~4 months for a cool/useful ability than get something that I'll never use (at least, not successfully) because of how awful it is.

[lemeres]

I suppose they still have a unique gimmick since they are the only ones that have the paralyze option. The ninja and slayer lack that.

I feel like they make better NPCs attacking in the surprise round in order to capture one of the party members.

[Anzyr]

thegreenteagamer wrote:

An assassin can death attack at sixth, a ninja requires tenth.

I don't know about you Rynjin, but for me, that's about four to five months' gametime difference in access. I don't want to wait a third of a year extra to use an ability I based my entire character on.

Yeah, in the grand scheme of things a ninja or slayer death attack is better, but I play to enjoy my toys ASAP. Later levels aren't guaranteed. Characters die, games fall apart, etc.

4-6 weeks tops. What are your party members doing for those other 4 months? Not killing monsters and taking their stuff?

[GreyWolfLord]

The only thing I think I have a problem is with people who think Rogues/Assassins and such don't invest in INT. Typically that will be either the first or second highest stat. Of course your going to have a useless Rogue or Assassin (just look at some of the skills they use) if you have a low INT. One of the reasons to invest in it if you ARE a Rogue or Assassin.

HOWEVER...the Save DC vs. Death is stupidly low (even with INT investments). They needed to have it as ALL the character levels combined or something to at least have it stand a chance...this is a BIG reason why the Assassin's primary ability kind of doesn't rock the world for me.

[BigP4nda]

Found out something after rereading the death attack ability. Assassin has the wonderful gift of reusing his death attack. Where as slayer and ninja require 24 hours if they fail. Besides the DC for all of them is essentially the same since the others use half their level. They all cap at 10+10+ability. The assassin's actually progresses faster.

[Oly]

BigP4nda wrote:

Found out something after rereading the death attack ability. Assassin has the wonderful gift of reusing his death attack. Where as slayer and ninja require 24 hours if they fail. Besides the DC for all of them is essentially the same since the others use half their level. They all cap at 10+10+ability. The assassin's actually progresses faster.

Slayers are stronger in a lot of ways, but not so roguelike in flavor. I understand wanting that flavor.

Ninjas have that flavor, only have to study for one round, can use ki to turn invisible to help remain undetected while studying their potential victim, and have no alignment restrictions.

[Lemmy]

It's funny, really... If you take the Assassin PrC at 6th level, you actually lose BAB and Fort and Will progression.

In exchange, you get the ability to stand 3 rounds doing nothing and then forcing a death effect with a really low Fort save... (Let's ignore the fact that you probably could kill the enemy if you simply attacked him for 3 rounds).

Oh, and at 10th level, you get the 1/day ability to make corpses crumble into dust when you successfully kill someone with your horrible Death Attack... (But if you miss the attack or if your target succeeds on their really easy Fort save, then you waste the use of this mind-blowing ability).

And of coursing, the effects of this awe-inspiring capstone ability can be easily replaced by... a torch.

...

Assassin manages to make Rogues even worse. That's quite impressive, actually.

[kestral287]

Eh, debatable. Assassin makes Rogue more specialized. Those three rounds aren't 'lost' combat time unless there's actually combat going on. If you can manage to set it up so that you attack at the same time the rest of the party emerges, the only real downside is the risk of detection (which is, to be fair to all sides, not a negligible risk). If you were attacking in those three rounds you'd probably have been killed.

If it wasn't for the need to progress the Death Attack I'd drop out of the class after Assassin 6 though. Everything after that is pretty much junk. Maybe spam Ability Focus on it or something?

Vastly inferior to the Alchemist overall, of course, but I'd take one (especially one coming off Ninja) over the Rogue.

Now I'm actually half toying around with making an Assassin for kicks. (Swashbuckler 1/Slayer 4/Assassin 10/Slayer 5 or some such, probably. Maybe throw a level of Mutation Warrior Fighter in there to help with feat setup)

[Abraham spalding]

IF you are using an intelligence based caster and you want fast progression into arcane trickster and you used some combination of vivisectionist and mindchemist to get your first sneak attack die then a level of assassin might be a good choice. This is only because you are stating the intelligence already and a death effect rider isn't a horrible choice -- but it's still not good.

Otherwise I might consider a level of assassin with some levels in master spy -- but again, this is not exactly an optimal prestige class either, so meh (this is only worth considering if you plan to max out your death attack DC by having at least 9 levels in master spy and the rest in assassin plus a maximized intelligence, probably leading into the mix with a mindchemist vivisectionist).

[BigP4nda]

I have to admit. The death attack would be a bit better if it was based off ur cl rather than assassin lvl. The other abilities arent as good. Id rather keeps putting levels into slayer or rogue for the talents

[Bandw2]

I actually think a Fighter with UMD and the required skills would be a better Assassin, their armor penalty reduction can let them get some really heavy armor right in behind for the backstab, and then you have a tank just murder the wizard/scary beasty, and so he's just sitting in the room waiting for the enemy to attack him and the party to start hitting them from behind after that.

actually a tactician fighter/assassin might not be TOO bad. still sub-optimal but you could make it work with the right UMD/support.

[Avh]

So, as a ninja/assassin 5/1, you need :

- 3 rounds of observation
- to be very close to your target (5 to 10 ft), before the surprise round, without being seen by your target.
- not to be detected by other means (Detect Magic, ...)
- to hit your target, which can be hard, because you have crappy BAB (+3 at 6, which is the same as a wizard), 4 high stats minimum (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, and possibly STR too, which means maybe a 14 in INT and/or DEX)
- to trigger a sneak attack (enemy not immune, environment not preventing it, enemy not immune to surprise, ...)
- to use it against an enemy that has a low Fortitude save.

You will hit less than half the time, and your target will probably pass your fortitude check 85% of the time (if fortitude is high) or 65% of the time (if fortitude is low).

Yes, even with all your time taken, the risks you take and targetting the perfect target (an unprepared wizard all alone for example), you will manage to kill that target less than 1 time out of 6 (1 to 2 time out of 20 against a bad target). And if you don't kill your target with that attack, you are killed (low HP, low Fortitude, low Will, low AC), meaning you won't reach level 7.

And that's assuming you actually reached level 6, because with a crappy AC (14 DEX remember) and awful fortitude/will saves, you are very unlikely to reach even that level.

Conclusion : Assassins are not useless, they're just plain worse than full rogue or ninja, and those are already in the bottom tier of builds...

[Bandw2]

now i want to make a tactician fighter with a rapier, full plate and a buckler/light shield.

nothing like suddenly having a wall of metal in the middle of the room with his blade in the wizards chest.

[N. Jolly]

Man, remember when assassins got (at times unique) spells? Man, they were sure cool then.

Also I live for people defending bad mechanics with 'roleplay', it's seriously my biggest guilty pleasure. I totally understand the value of flavor and I enjoy it immensely, but the assassin lacks any real reason to exist in its current format. I'd probably go Red Mantis Assassin over this, since they still get spells, even if there's not the cool unique ones they received in 3.5

[WWWW]

You know, I was going to say something about the class not being so great, but then I remembered when assassins lost their spellcasting and I decided that they had suffered enough already.

[Tacticslion]

It's funny. In many ways, I like all the new mechanics the assassin came with in the PF edition - it felt more like an assassin, and some of it was really cool.

The problem is that it just doesn't synch up accurately to what it's supposed to do - at least compared to other classes.

It has a few nice unique features, but those features just aren't strong enough to warrant the adoption of the class when compared to similar (and better) effects from other classes, except for the flavor.

[Oly]

Tacticslion wrote:

It's funny. In many ways, I like all the new mechanics the assassin came with in the PF edition - it felt more like an assassin, and some of it was really cool.

The problem is that it just doesn't synch up accurately to what it's supposed to do - at least compared to other classes.

It has a few nice unique features, but those features just aren't strong enough to warrant the adoption of the class when compared to similar (and better) effects from other classes, except for the flavor.

Ninjas are better (including at assassination) and have all the same flavor, if you build them around assassination.

While Slayers can assassinate and are better overall than Ninjas, they do lack the same flavor.

[Tacticslion]

That's mostly what I meant. Point in fact, when I made my own "assassin" (a chaotic good hero of the people who "worked for hire" only as a cover) a ninja. As dumb as it is, the poison use (along with craft (alchemy) to make more) + sneak attack were more effective at eliminating threats and encounters than death attack was.

[wraithstrike]

Stalarious wrote:

Ok,

So ALOT of people believe that the assassin is a useless prestige class however I disagree. It is a tactical class its not like a spell flinger that can walk into a room and go "o baddies" and proceed to blow them all up with spells. Or the fight....well lets face it if I have to explain the fighter then you probably play a typical fighter to a t. None of these tactics are bad its just that the assassin is teamwork essential.
If you sneak in and find a good spot to watch a enemy for three rounds.(out of combat) then your team comes in after you snk atk your target then the assassin is invaluable. However and most typically everyone runs in same round as the scout. Which other then trap finding makes scouting useless. If you can find a group that understands subterfuge then the assassin is amazing. If you plan on building one I highly suggest starting out ninja because of vanishing trick to help you find the perfect vantage point to stalk your prey. If you agree or know of ways to better help the assassin class please i would love to hear your opinion.

In most games you go to the enemy and they are waiting for you, not the other way around. Now you can try to give them a reason to come to your ambush, but not many games run like that. I am not saying that playstyle is wrong, but it is not typical. In addition the fort save is normally very low, and almost impossible to setup again once you have been noticed. During your 3 rounds of hiding you may get seen. If there are multiple enemies more of them get a chance to notice you. Then you have to explain why you are hiding.

Now you are alone because according to your plan the party stayed back. At least with my idea of inviting the enemy your party will be closer to rescuing you. In addition, there could be several enemies.

Back to the fort save: Since the save is so low most bad guys will make the save. After having to save you because the enemy noticed you, and/or made the save the party will most likely stop giving you your 3 round solo time.

My better way to build the assassin is to go ninja without the PrC or Slayer. Even go with a charging mount build. Just take a medium mount. When you charge you will hit for x3 damage, without a crit. There is no save against that. <----Invisible mount and rider build for the win. :)

[KestrelZ]

Please bear with me, most of this is opinion rather than hard fact.

In general, prestige classes seem to be somewhat....discouraged, at least mechanically. Prestige classes can't be counted as "favored classes" (not even by half-elves if they only have their base class and a prestige class?). This only means the loss of that 1 skill or hit point a level, yet it seems to be the first example to a trend.

When compared to equivalent 3.5 prestige classes, the pathfinder versions rarely add anything new. Sometimes they take things away (such as the assassin spellcasting). Compared to what the base classes were upgraded with, it seems that prestige classes were losing an arms race in general. Granted, some of the new prestige classes seemed at first glance to add things. Some have hidden gems for niche builds (such as the horizon walker).

With the way things are progressing, perhaps making prestige classes into base classes are the way to go (Paizo seems to prefer base classes, and most games past 7th level seem a bit too wonky mechanically to equate to mortal fantasy tropes and stories).

There doesn't seem to be an easy fix, it would just be good if we have classes that mechanically accomplish what it says on the title.

I won't say what is useful or not useful, yet there are enough points made to show that some classes that sound fun have features that miss the mark. It doesn't help that past 7th level, characters end up mechanically able to do some really insane things that breaks my suspension of disbelief. I'm looking at you, barbarians that can wade through lava without magical protection.

[BigP4nda]

Avh wrote:

- to hit your target, which can be hard, because you have crappy BAB (+3 at 6, which is the same as a wizard), 4 high stats minimum (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, and possibly STR too, which means maybe a 14 in INT and/or DEX)

Actually the assassin has +4 bab @ 6th

[DominusMegadeus]

BigP4nda wrote:

Avh wrote:

- to hit your target, which can be hard, because you have crappy BAB (+3 at 6, which is the same as a wizard), 4 high stats minimum (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, and possibly STR too, which means maybe a 14 in INT and/or DEX)

Actually the assassin has +4 bab @ 6th

+3 from Ninja, +0 from Assassin.

[BigP4nda]

DominusMegadeus wrote:

BigP4nda wrote:

Avh wrote:

- to hit your target, which can be hard, because you have crappy BAB (+3 at 6, which is the same as a wizard), 4 high stats minimum (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, and possibly STR too, which means maybe a 14 in INT and/or DEX)

Actually the assassin has +4 bab @ 6th

+3 from Ninja, +0 from Assassin.

Ah, well that's because of the level you dipped into PrC, honestly idk why most PrC don't start at BAB +1 considering you will always have a level in something, so putting a level into most PrCs is essentially losing the progression of you BAB and usually 1 or 2 saves.

This is where I can understand people's distaste for the assassin as which there aren't many abilities unique to it that circumvent the losses of taking a prestige class (not to mention the requirements and limitations).
The arcane trickster has the ever-so-awesome sneak attack spells
The Eldritch Knight is one of the few that do start at BAB +1, and not only that, also allows wizards and sorcerers to become spotlight fighters while keeping their 9th level spells.
The Assassin just gets the ability to make the people he kills stay dead. at least that's all that's unique to him. But hey, if you want to make a character who hates undead or resurrection, then this is your guy ;)

[Issac Daneil]

I'm a little confused about everyone saying Slayer lacks the same Flavor of Assassin.

Aren't they both specialized killers who can eventually perform observation --> Instant kills? Technically, the Slayer begins with a version of Observe foe --> Engage, with his Studied Target. It actually gives him a sense of progression as he levels, instead of the character suddenly realizing: "If I study him, I can kill him!"

[Lemmy]

BigP4nda wrote:

DominusMegadeus wrote:

+3 from Ninja, +0 from Assassin.

Ah, well that's because of the level you dipped into PrC (...)

Not only that.... It also delays the character's Fort and Will save progression... Which are already bad saves for Rogues and Ninjas.

PrC are generally pretty weak in PF... But Assassin manages to outsuck most of them. I mean.... It's quite a feat to make Rogues look good by comparison.

[Tacticslion]

Lemmy wrote:

PrC are generally pretty weak in PF... But Assassin manages to outsuck most of them. I mean.... It's quite a feat to make Rogues look good by comparison.

This reminds me. I tried to make a post earlier, but lost it due to internet lousiness.

What are the weakest PrCs (say, a "bottom eight")? And are they weak because they are such a delayed progression, or are they weak because what they give is lame? A combination of both?

[Lemmy]

Tacticslion wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

PrC are generally pretty weak in PF... But Assassin manages to outsuck most of them. I mean.... It's quite a feat to make Rogues look good by comparison.

This reminds me. I tried to make a post earlier, but lost it due to internet lousiness.

What are the weakest PrCs (say, a "bottom eight")? And are they weak because they are such a delayed progression, or are they weak because what they give is lame? A combination of both?

Well... Losing BAB and save progression wouldn't be too bad if the class gives something good (many builds include dips in different classes).

The main problem is having really weak class features. The loss of BAB/saves is just the crappy icing in the crappy cake.

I don't know which are the weakest PrCs... I have the Paths of Prestige book, but most of them are pretty weak anyway, so I gave up. Class flavor shouldn't be punished with bad mechanics. Still... I'd guess Assassin is at least in the top 5 weakest PrCs.

[DominusMegadeus]

Tacticslion wrote:

Lemmy wrote:

PrC are generally pretty weak in PF... But Assassin manages to outsuck most of them. I mean.... It's quite a feat to make Rogues look good by comparison.

This reminds me. I tried to make a post earlier, but lost it due to internet lousiness.

What are the weakest PrCs (say, a "bottom eight")? And are they weak because they are such a delayed progression, or are they weak because what they give is lame? A combination of both?

Almost every PrC gives something cool eventually, imo. It's just not usually worth getting because these cool things don't happen until you get 4-8 levels in it, which also delays (sometimes forever) the cool things your base class gets.

Your class abilities, unless they scale directly off of stats or character level, are just sitting there at 5th level power when you're facing 8th level challenges. It's a race you can't win.

[BigP4nda]

This post made me want to revise the assassin:
You can find the revised one here.

[Starbuck_II]

kestral287 wrote:

Is this our new version of the Rogue Thread?

Surprise round! You get a chance to paralyze or kill somebody. With... 10+Assassin level+Int mod.

Why would this character have a notable Int mod again? Unless you're interested in making a character that needs every stat in the game (with Ninja/Assassin the best you can dump is... Wis, so hope nothing ever targets that Will save? And Strength if you shell out three feats, I suppose). And especially early on, that DC is going to be extremely low. At level six you're pulling out the equivalent of a first-level spell for a Wizard, except the Wizard has third-level spells and an Int mod of note. Assuming equal Int investment, your DC will match the Wizard's at Ninja 5/Assassin 6, beat the Wizard at 7+... except that "assuming equal Int investment" is an enormously false assumption.

Also you have to target the Fort save. No flexibility there.

Also you have to actually have stealthed right behind the target, because the surprise round is either move or standard. Admittedly, there's an item for that.

But okay, you ambush one enemy (let's say there are four). You've neutralized a quarter of the encounter. Likely less, to...

Well, assuming Ninja:

He could be just charge (in a surprise round you can charge as a standard dye to the rules on charge). Now he took Scout archetype of Ninja (because Ninja can take Rogue archetypes).
Then assuming you didn't waste invisibility before attacking, you can activate it after.

Now some enemies see invisibility so it won't be a fail safe.

[Petty Alchemy]

Ignoring the black hole of wrongbadfun this topic seems to be heading into, Jolly does bring up a very important point.

Assassins don't play well in parties, because telling people "Wait here while I do my thing" is pretty boring for everyone else.

Maybe if Assassins could pre-study their targets and didn't have such a short time for their Death Attack, they'd play better with a team.

It's the same issue with hit-and-run tactics that rogues might want to employ. While you spend a turn getting out of sight and hiding, the Fighter is making a full attack to turn the target into pulp anyway. Combat is quick and brutal for other classes, and archetypes that want to take their times are less useful when working with everyone else.

[Matthew Downie]

Quote:

The assassin can be good if the dm builds to allow it or it can be bad if the dm builds against it.

What if the GM simply runs an adventure not built specifically to cater for assassins, nor to screw them over? Looking back over the adventure paths I've seen, I would say in 90%+ of cases the assassin doesn't do too well.

[DominusMegadeus]

If you have to make up rules and lower enemy numbers to make a class function, then that class objectively sucks.

[N. Jolly]

Petty Alchemy wrote:

Ignoring the black hole of wrongbadfun this topic seems to be heading into, Jolly does bring up a very important point.

Assassins don't play well in parties, because telling people "Wait here while I do my thing" is pretty boring for everyone else.

Maybe if Assassins could pre-study their targets and didn't have such a short time for their Death Attack, they'd play better with a team.

It's the same issue with hit-and-run tactics that rogues might want to employ. While you spend a turn getting out of sight and hiding, the Fighter is making a full attack to turn the target into pulp anyway. Combat is quick and brutal for other classes, and archetypes that want to take their times are less useful when working with everyone else.

I think this is the biggest problem with a lot of 'roguish' things that people want to do, that the rogues in stories are either the main character or solo, which means they can spend time doing what they need to do in order to advance the plot. Assassins are almost sarcastically good examples of this, seeing as they require 3 rounds to land a possible kill.

This 'death attack' has the same problem as a lot of 'save or die' spells, in which Treantmonk touched on in his wizard guide. It leads to one of two situations:

1: It succeeds (not likely) and the party spent 3 rounds to watch you land one attack that either ended the encounter or made it trivial.

2: It doesn't succeed (statistically, this is more likely) and the party spent 3 rounds to watch you fail and do a small amount of damage when they could have destroyed the opponent with those 3 rounds.

That doesn't even get into how difficult solo scouting is without magical support. I'm not saying the mage can't help the rogue/assassin, but other options for this role (alchemist, investigator, inquisitor) come with their own buffs, which really makes them better than their non magical counterparts.

[Oncoming_Storm]

The Assassin is great for NPC's who can afford to sit around for 3 rounds, and make a low DC death attack against a PC, who survives it easily, beats the assassin, and then takes steps to find out who hired him/her.

But for players who go into dungeons and do stuff, They suck.