Battle Poi


Rules Questions


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I'm somewhat confused about the battle poi.

1) Does the battle poi get a bonus to damage based on the users strength (or dexterity for the agile enchant)?
2) If so, what type of damage is the extra damage?
3) Power attack, how does it work with this?
4) If I crit, does energy damage get doubled (For the battle poi, not like a flaming enchant)

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

1) No it doesn't.
2) there are no extra damage.
3) it's a twf type of weapon, so would count as one handed weapon (+2) but as a twf weapon, you can attack with both sides.
4) yeah fire damage would be doubled.


While answering a different question, I ran across this thread. The above answer is, well, incorrect.

1) The Battle Poi is a One-Handed Melee weapon and thus gets a bonus to damage based on strength. There is nothing in the weapon description that says otherwise. An Agile Battle Poi would add dex to damage instead.

2) The extra damage is also fire damage, just like a mace's extra damage is bludgeoning.

3) Again, the Battle Poi is a One-Handed weapon, so you treat it the same as any other One-Handed weapon. Specifically, you get full PA damage if a Battle Poi in your main hand, and half the bonus if it's in your offhand. Note that for game purposes, you need two distinct Battle Pois to dual wield them.

4) It's a x2 crit weapon, so the damage is doubled the same way as any other x2 crit weapon.

I'd also like to point out that this weapon doesn't automatically get past any DR a creature has - the damage it does is still weapon damage.


As byakko said except the last part is wrong. It's fire damage therefore it procs against energy resistance/immunity fire not DR.


It certainly has to get past their energy resistance/immunity, but I guess it is a bit unclear whether DR would also apply.

EDIT: I stand corrected. Abraham is correct, DR should not apply.

Quote:
Damage Reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains.
Quote:
Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even non-magical fire) ignore damage reduction.


Byakko wrote:

It certainly has to get past their energy resistance/immunity, but I guess it is a bit unclear whether DR would also apply.

It's not unclear at all:

Fire is energy damage -- energy damage is unaffected by DR.

Quote:
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.

Interestingly enough this means by RAW any spell that does say bludgeoning damage bypasses DR unless it specifically states otherwise.


Already corrected. :)

Yeah, that is interesting. If a weapon-like spell dealt piercing damage, and the creature had DR/slashing.... the spell would still bypass the DR, apparently.


Yeah -- I think I need to go take a look at the FAQ's because it occurs to me one of them addresses this and might need revised.

Or I could be completely off my rocker again and not remembering things right.


Found it:

FAQ wrote:

Damage Reduction: How does DR interact with magical effects that deal bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

Although the Bestiary definition of Damage Reduction (page 299) says "The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities," that's actually just referring to damage that isn't specifically called out as being of a particular type, such as fire damage or piercing damage. In other words, DR doesn't protect against "typeless damage" from magical attacks.
However, if a magical attack specifically mentions that it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage, DR affects that damage normally, as if it were from a physical weapon. (Otherwise the magical attack might as well not have a damage type, as it would only interface with B/P/S damage in a very few corner cases, such as whether or not an ooze splits from that attack.)
For example, the ice storm spell deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage. If you cast ice storm at a group of zombies, the zombie's DR 5/slashing protects them against 5 points of the spell's bludgeoning damage. Their DR doesn't help them against the spell's cold damage because DR doesn't apply to energy attacks.


Yeah that's the one -- Always thought it was kind of stupid, but whatever, at least it does fully cover the situations in question, is concise and easy to follow with no gaps.

So in summation: I was off my rocker but I wasn't completely wrong either about the FAQ.


Nah, you have a good memory. There's a lot of rules out there, after all. You also caught me out in an error, which doesn't happen that often. ;)

Shame about all the fire resistance and immunities at higher levels, though. Kinda shuts down the Battle Poi's possibilities. I can't think of any way to make the weapon hurt such enemies either, except with rider damages.


Byakko wrote:

Nah, you have a good memory. There's a lot of rules out there, after all. You also caught me out in an error, which doesn't happen that often. ;)

Shame about all the fire resistance and immunities at higher levels, though. Kinda shuts down the Battle Poi's possibilities. I can't think of any way to make the weapon hurt such enemies either, except with rider damages.

I had a build I was working on a while back:

Ifrit vivisectionist alchemist that has the smokevision feat. He would use inhalation poisons that had to be burned on battle poi and smoke stacks to get sneak attack and increase his damage that way.

examples
Archetype
half elf
combined with poison


Ah, the ol' smoke based character. They're actually really good, but they don't play too well with other party members. (unless you're playing with a very coordinated group)


Poi, poi?


Nyaa wrote:
Poi, poi?

Nya nya nya nya?


Abraham spalding wrote:
Nyaa wrote:
Poi, poi?
Nya nya nya nya?

Nyan nyan?

(somehow, I feel we have become sidetracked)


Byakko wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Nyaa wrote:
Poi, poi?
Nya nya nya nya?

Nyan nyan?

(somehow, I feel we have become sidetracked)

off the rails you say?


Byakko wrote:

While answering a different question, I ran across this thread. The above answer is, well, incorrect.

1) The Battle Poi is a One-Handed Melee weapon and thus gets a bonus to damage based on strength. There is nothing in the weapon description that says otherwise. An Agile Battle Poi would add dex to damage instead.

2) The extra damage is also fire damage, just like a mace's extra damage is bludgeoning.

3) Again, the Battle Poi is a One-Handed weapon, so you treat it the same as any other One-Handed weapon. Specifically, you get full PA damage if a Battle Poi in your main hand, and half the bonus if it's in your offhand. Note that for game purposes, you need two distinct Battle Pois to dual wield them.

4) It's a x2 crit weapon, so the damage is doubled the same way as any other x2 crit weapon.

All of this is right, except, the Battle Poi is a light weapon (otherwise, it couldn't be made into an Agile weapon to begin with).


My only disagreement is that you get to add strength damage. The description says "The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". Since the weapon itself isn't dealing any damage, just the fire does, I'd treat it the same as a flame blade. "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage."

As a lot of the AA, the wording on this weapon could have used some polish. It SHOULD have come out and said you can't add strength. I'm not seeing how you can add physical strength damage to a weapon that can't deal physical damage.

Also on needing two to two weapon fight, it says "This pair of arm-length chains has handles at one end and heavy fuel-soaked torch heads at the other." It's a pair of torches, meaning one poi acts like a double weapon allowing one poi to be both weapons.

PS: Under Ability Score Bonuses it also says it's added to "weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)." It's like being attacked with a tiny torch. The weapon damage is - so no strength damage is added but the fire still does 1 point of fire damage.


@ mplindustries -- You are right, they changed from what they use to be in legacy of fire.

@ graystone -- without something in the text that actually states you do not add bonus damage then you still add bonus damage. It's a light weapon and uses all the rules for such unless the weapon itself states otherwise.

It does not have the double weapon feature therefore it is not a double weapon and it does not say that you do not add your strength modifier to damage therefore you do.

You PS doesn't matter at all since the attack roll is modified by strength and therefore the damage roll will be too.


It doesn't work as a double weapon because it'd need the Double property to do so. It says it has handles "at one end" and a pair of torches at the other so, essentially, it's more like a flail with a pair of heads. The two heads together constitute the business end of the weapon. The only caveat it gives is that you're treated as if you had the TWF feat when using it if proficient so you can wield a single battle poi along with some other weapon and, even without the TWF feat, you attack at -2/-2 (presuming the poi or some other light weapon is your off-hand). Essentially, it's so light that if you know how to manage it properly, it barely interferes at all with fighting with another weapon.


Ah, I didn't notice it was reprinted. I was going off my copy of Legacy of Fire. Anyway, as has been pointed out, it's still a weapon and received bonuses like any other weapon of its type, unless there are rules that state otherwise.

For example, the mancatcher is another weapon that deals negligible damage with its basic attack... but it still receives strength bonuses to damage despite not really being suited for it.


Abraham spalding wrote:

@ mplindustries -- You are right, they changed from what they use to be in legacy of fire.

@ graystone -- without something in the text that actually states you do not add bonus damage then you still add bonus damage. It's a light weapon and uses all the rules for such unless the weapon itself states otherwise.

It does not have the double weapon feature therefore it is not a double weapon and it does not say that you do not add your strength modifier to damage therefore you do.

You PS doesn't matter at all since the attack roll is modified by strength and therefore the damage roll will be too.

Well, the argument could be made that since it states it "cannot be used to deal physical damage", that even if your Str were added, it'd be moot because you're multiplying the damage by 0 anyway.


Abraham spalding wrote:


@ graystone -- without something in the text that actually states you do not add bonus damage then you still add bonus damage. It's a light weapon and uses all the rules for such unless the weapon itself states otherwise.

I'd say that when it says it can't deal physical damage, it makes it a weapon that has weapon damage rolls that do not rely on Strength. For me, it doesn't have to come out and actually state it because you can add the dots to come up with that conclusion. Of course it would have been MUCH clearer if they did. In essence, the weapon actually deals physical damage - and fire damage 1d4. There is no physical damage die to add strength to.

Abraham spalding wrote:
It does not have the double weapon feature.

"This pair of arm-length chains has handles at one end and heavy fuel-soaked torch heads at the other." I've always read this as two (pair) chains with a handle on each chain and having a torch at the end. If it isn't, then I'm confused about it. IRL, poi's don't have multiple heads but are instead used in pairs so that's how I read it. It's true that double isn't in the properties so I guess I'll toss out the description and assume it's instead a single poi.

Kazaan wrote:


Well, the argument could be made that since it states it "cannot be used to deal physical damage", that even if your Str were added, it'd be moot because you're multiplying the damage by 0 anyway.

That's the way I see it. It's like a tiny torch. The damage dice drops to - from the damage chart so the only thing left is the 1 fire damage and strength isn't added to that.


Under the benefits of the Strength score:

Quote:

You apply your character's Strength modifier to:

* Melee attack rolls.
* Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)

Under Light Weapons:

Quote:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

I don't see anything in there about the weapon having to deal piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage.

Realistic justification-wise, the harder and firmer a hot thing touches something, the more damage it does. For example, you can lightly touch a hot surface without it really hurting. Gripping the same surface firmly? Yeah, it's going to hurt a lot more.


It is very questionable, given how flame blade works, that the Poi as described should get bonus damage from strength. However, this is probably an oversite in the text of the weapon, and the rules for prohibiting giving this bonus are pretty weak.

That said, at my tables I wouldn't allow it.

Byakko wrote:


Realistic justification-wise, the harder and firmer a hot thing touches something, the more damage it does. For example, you can lightly touch a hot surface without it really hurting. Gripping the same surface firmly? Yeah, it's going to hurt a lot more.

Ummm....no that is just wrong. How long you hold something hot will matter but generally speaking if you are touching something hot harder and firmer instead of lightly it won't really effect the amount of thermal transfer.


Flame Blade is a spell and specifically states you don't get to add your strength damage, so really has nothing to do with this discussion.

Edit: Removed some pointless comments.

I would like to note that Strength's effects on weapon hit/damage are somewhat abstract. A strong character can hit more often and deal more damage with a dagger than a weaker person could with a sword. The mechanical properties of the weapon aren't the only thing which determine damage inflicted. (the same way hps aren't a strict measure of how much actual damage a person can take, but are an abstraction including many factors)


Byakko wrote:

Under the benefits of the Strength score:

Quote:

You apply your character's Strength modifier to:

* Melee attack rolls.
* Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)

Under Light Weapons:

Quote:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.

I don't see anything in there about the weapon having to deal piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage.

Realistic justification-wise, the harder and firmer a hot thing touches something, the more damage it does. For example, you can lightly touch a hot surface without it really hurting. Gripping the same surface firmly? Yeah, it's going to hurt a lot more.

Look under Ability Score Bonuses it also says strength bonuses are added to "weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)." Not all weapons add strength and for me, one that isn't able to deal physical damage would be one of them.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-bonuses

Also look at DR. It's affected by "normal attacks" and "DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic." HOWEVER is goes on to say "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."

So added up, the battle poi isn't a normal attack that deals weapon damage. It deals an energy attack with elemental fire damage.

To me, things like flameblade and produce flame make it clear how the game treats energy weapons. Note WHY Flame Blade doesn't allow strength. "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage." Just replace "Since the blade is immaterial" with "The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". Seems like a perfectly clear reason to not allow the poi strength bonuses. Or are you saying that the flame from the poi is material (the poi itself can't deal any physical damage per the description).


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graystone wrote:

Look under Ability Score Bonuses it also says strength bonuses are added to "weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)." Not all weapons add strength and for me, one that isn't able to deal physical damage would be one of them.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-bonuses

The Battle Poi relies on Strength, as it's a One Handed Melee Weapon, and One-Handed Melee Weapons use Strength for their hit and damage bonus. So that quote doesn't really change things. Even that's mostly fluff; the actual rules make it even more clear that Strength applies.

In the case of the Battle Poi, having a higher strength may allow you to swing the Poi around faster which will allow it to become hotter, enable you to land it more accurately to vulnerable places on the target, or allow you to wrap the chain around the target more tightly and for longer before they can shake the burning metal off.

Quote:

Also look at DR. It's affected by "normal attacks" and "DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic." HOWEVER is goes on to say "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."

So added up, the battle poi isn't a normal attack that deals weapon damage. It deals an energy attack with elemental fire damage.

As previously discussed in this thread, the damage from this weapon does indeed bypass DR. No arguments here.

The Battle Poi is a bit unusual, but there's many unusual weapons. Such weapons have specific rules to describe how they work but otherwise function as a typical weapon of their group. The Battle Poi says nothing about not receiving Strength bonuses to hit and damage, so you default to that it does.

Quote:

To me, things like flameblade and produce flame make it clear how the game treats energy weapons. Note WHY Flame Blade doesn't allow strength. "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage." Just replace "Since the blade is immaterial" with "The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". Seems like a perfectly clear reason to not allow the poi strength bonuses. Or are you saying that the flame from the poi is material (the poi itself can't deal any physical damage per the description).

There are specific rules for spells. The Battle Poi is not a spell. It is a weapon, and thus uses all the rules for weapons, unless otherwise specified.


I saw this threads title and immediately the thoughts of a Luau gone horribly wrong!

Grand Lodge

David Justus wrote:
How long you hold something hot will matter but generally speaking if you are touching something hot harder and firmer instead of lightly it won't really effect the amount of thermal transfer.

If we're looking for physics analogues, there are two reasonable mechanisms by which increased force of application of the battle poi could cause a proportional increase in bodily harm. (1) The increased force increases the amount of burning oil that splashes from the poi onto the target. This oil will continue to burn after the poi itself has bounced off. More STR = More fire damage (2) While an unlit poi is, in and of itself, insufficient to cause appreciable bodily harm when wielded by an average person, a sufficiently strong person could cause some, albeit a small amount, of harm with it. Think of it as a tennis ball on a string. I personally could probably not inflict any real injury to someone with that. Shwarzenegger, on the other hand, could probably leave a pretty mean damn welt. It would basically serve only as a vehicle to translate the strength of one of his arms. The poi isn't doing the damage, the Governator is.

For mechanical reasons, I think the first justification would be a suitable analogue for the pathfinder rules. RAW, strength translates without any text saying otherwise. Physics wise, a stronger person jamming a lit torch into your face is going to hurt you worse. Either way, theyget STR to damage unless we get an FAQ.

Scarab Sages

Just another, rather related set of questions, rather than starting another Battle Poi thread.

How long does the oil in the Battle Poi last? Doesn't say, but as a non-magical item, does seem like I'd have to refuel at some point.

Also, does it shed light?


It seems reasonable to treat them as torches for the purpose of lifetime and light shed. The heads would be about the same size so it makes enough sense.

I'd love to know if we ever actually got any clarification on whether or not you should add Str to damage with the poi. I've been holding off on making a poi character for years while waiting on that answer.


johnnythexxxiv: It seems SUPER clear that the poi gets no strength added. Would you throw a net and expect to add strength damage since thrown weapons add strength? Strength damage firing a Smoke arrow from a composite bow? With the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage, it's like trying to strength damage in a pillow fight. After all "the burning fuel deals fire damage" and strength has no affect on "burning fuel".

Murdock Mudeater: Modern poi using modern materials, like Kevlar, burn for @ 7-8 min with lamp oil. I think 5 min in pathfinder would be fine and if you use sand to put them out use can use the entire duration.

shed light: I'd say treat it as a Candle, though using it as a light source in combat would be distracting to say the least.


If you think you can't add strength to damage in a pillow fight, you clearly haven't been in the same pillow fights I have :P I mean usually it's been nonlethal damage, but the point still stands


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Ah, this old thread.

The battle poi definitely DOES get a damage modifier based on strength. There are no special rules for the battle poi saying it doesn't get this bonus damage, thus it it treated like any other weapon.

graystone, you keep bringing up that line that "the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". But guess what? That doesn't matter.... the extra damage from strength isn't physical damage. It's fire damage, like the rest of the damage the weapon causes. Your net example is also a poor one, as it doesn't have a damage roll to apply strength to, unlike the poi.

Murdock:
I would say the oil lasts however long it would normally, typically 6 hours I believe. While the poi might shed some light, I wouldn't give this any mechanical lighting effects. Table variation here would be reasonable, tho.


The Battle Poi is a light weapon with the unique quality that the damage type is "Fire" instead of P/B/S. It follows all the rules for a light melee weapon.

It also has some confusion about whether it's one weapon or two. The statblock says it's a single weapon, but the description describes a pair of them. Assume that the text describes a pair of Poi.

It also lacks details about light and oil consumption. Given that it doesn't have rules about oil consumption, it's fair to assume that those are unimportant (that is, it consumes some small number of bottles of oil in the course of a work day, but it's not going to run out in the middle of combat).


This weapon is... wow, really badly written. Uses a weird damage type, but doesn't elaborate on the mechanics any beyond that. No comment on the duration of the flame effect.

And then the weapon's fluff section seems to think it's a double weapon or that it always comes in pairs?

Also the weird text about TWF. I can't tell what that was intended for.

Though you, as written I think you get Str to damage. From a strict rules perspective the text doesn't modify the rules for how the weapon works at all. From a "but what about the fluff perspective" they're described as "heavy fuel soaked torches", so them doing some sort of damage based on how hard you swing them seems reasonably from that angle to.

Though if they are "heavy torches" I don't know why they don't do damage more like an actual torch.

Really odd weapon.


Byakko: If what you say it true, then a torch should do strength damage twice. Once for the bludgeoning damage and once for the additional fire damage. That'd have to be right since the ability to "deal physical damage" isn't required.

Question: Do you think that the strength damage to the poi would be fire damage or fire. What about a torch? Does a Smoke arrow from a composite bow deal strength damage [since "physical damage" isn't required]. Same for a net.

See if you go "there isn't a rule that "physical damage" is required for strength damage, then you've got to accept that for everything. Dye, smoke and tanglefoot arrows, nets and Little Starstones start doing strength damage since not dealing physical damage doesn't mean anything to stop strength damage to weapons.

You say "But guess what? That doesn't matter.... the extra damage from strength isn't physical damage." Then what do you add it to that isn't physical? Please count out the ways you use your strength in a non-physical way... The net and other examples are fine as they have exactly the same physical damage roll that the poi does. A big "-", none, nada, zip... Why is "the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage" ANY different than a "-" in the damage? It isn't for strength damage

Because if it's as you say then why don't we add damage from strength to a torches fire damage? A flaming sword? See, strength damage gets added to that damage that goes vs DR. Elemental damage goes against resistance. So really, do torches in your game do d3 + strength + 1 fire, d3 + strength + 1 fire + strength fire or d3 + 1 fire + strength fire. It's got both physical and non-physical damage rolls after all...

EDIT: Also, look at Produce Flame. "you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon". If we go with "There are no special rules for the battle poi saying it doesn't get this bonus damage" then there are none for adding strength to things used "as a thrown weapon" right? I know I've never seen anyone add strength damage to one. Have you?


graystone wrote:
Byakko: If what you say it true, then a torch should do strength damage twice. Once for the bludgeoning damage and once for the additional fire damage. That'd have to be right since the ability to "deal physical damage" isn't required.

That would require a special mention that the weapon can deal strength damage twice. So, no.

Quote:
Question: Do you think that the strength damage to the poi would be fire damage or fire.

Fire damage or fire? Well, between those two, I'd go with fire.

Quote:
What about a torch?

Unclear, ask your DM. I think most would say bludgeoning though.

Quote:
Does a Smoke arrow from a composite bow deal strength damage [since "physical damage" isn't required].

Smoke arrows literally say they do damage as normal arrows. So, yes.

Quote:
Same for a net.

Net's entry in their weapon table says they don't do any damage at all, so probably not.

Quote:
flaming sword?

Flaming is a special magical property added onto a weapon, not the weapon's base damage. That is a very, very poor comparison point. You probably know that though.

Quote:
Why is "the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage" ANY different than a "-" in the damage? It isn't for strength damage

Well, I think the biggest difference here is that the Poi says it deals damage and the net says it doesn't. 1d4 fire and - are not equivocal. That seems pretty obvious on its face.

Quote:
Because if it's as you say then why don't we add damage from strength to a torches fire damage?

If you want to have that debate you should probably start a thread on it.

edit:

Quote:


Also, look at Produce Flame. "you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon". If we go with "There are no special rules for the battle poi saying it doesn't get this bonus damage" then there are none for adding strength to things used "as a thrown weapon" right? I know I've never seen anyone add strength damage to one. Have you?

Weaponlike spells don't add strength damage by default. That's how they work. See all the discussion in this forum about mystic bolts. It was a big deal for a couple weeks. Surprised you never noticed it.


Well... I think swoosh pretty much answered most of the questions you had for me. He did a good job of it too. +1

On net vs poi damage: The net's listed damage is "-". The poi's listed damage is "1d4 fire". You add your strength modifier to damage rolls. You can only add your strength modifier when there is a damage roll involved. This should be straight-forward...

On torches: "If a torch is used in combat, treat it as a one-handed improvised weapon that deals bludgeoning damage equal to that of a gauntlet of its size, plus 1 point of fire damage." Thus, a torch is essentially just a gauntlet when it comes to damage, with a rider effect of 1 fire damage. A poi's fire damage, however, is not a rider effect as it's listed as the weapon's intrinsic base damage on the weapon table.

Sovereign Court

If poi's fire damage is his weapon damage and can get strength bonus.
Does it mean poi can not hurt fine swarm(because it's immune to all weapon damage)?And will be affected by DR(except "DR/fire")?
It's odd……

Scarab Sages

Don't think think you can hurt swarm with torches, either.

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