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I'm somewhat confused about the battle poi.
1) Does the battle poi get a bonus to damage based on the users strength (or dexterity for the agile enchant)?
2) If so, what type of damage is the extra damage?
3) Power attack, how does it work with this?
4) If I crit, does energy damage get doubled (For the battle poi, not like a flaming enchant)
As byakko said except the last part is wrong. It's fire damage therefore it procs against energy resistance/immunity fire not DR.
It certainly has to get past their energy resistance/immunity, but I guess it is a bit unclear whether DR would also apply.
It's not unclear at all:
Fire is energy damage -- energy damage is unaffected by DR.
A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. A certain kind of weapon can sometimes damage the creature normally, as noted below.
Interestingly enough this means by RAW any spell that does say bludgeoning damage bypasses DR unless it specifically states otherwise.
Yeah -- I think I need to go take a look at the FAQ's because it occurs to me one of them addresses this and might need revised.
Or I could be completely off my rocker again and not remembering things right.
Yeah that's the one -- Always thought it was kind of stupid, but whatever, at least it does fully cover the situations in question, is concise and easy to follow with no gaps.
So in summation: I was off my rocker but I wasn't completely wrong either about the FAQ.
Nah, you have a good memory. There's a lot of rules out there, after all. You also caught me out in an error, which doesn't happen that often. ;)
Shame about all the fire resistance and immunities at higher levels, though. Kinda shuts down the Battle Poi's possibilities. I can't think of any way to make the weapon hurt such enemies either, except with rider damages.
I had a build I was working on a while back:
Ifrit vivisectionist alchemist that has the smokevision feat. He would use inhalation poisons that had to be burned on battle poi and smoke stacks to get sneak attack and increase his damage that way.
Poi, poi?Nya nya nya nya?(somehow, I feel we have become sidetracked)
While answering a different question, I ran across this thread. The above answer is, well, incorrect.
1) The Battle Poi is a One-Handed Melee weapon and thus gets a bonus to damage based on strength. There is nothing in the weapon description that says otherwise. An Agile Battle Poi would add dex to damage instead.
2) The extra damage is also fire damage, just like a mace's extra damage is bludgeoning.
3) Again, the Battle Poi is a One-Handed weapon, so you treat it the same as any other One-Handed weapon. Specifically, you get full PA damage if a Battle Poi in your main hand, and half the bonus if it's in your offhand. Note that for game purposes, you need two distinct Battle Pois to dual wield them.
4) It's a x2 crit weapon, so the damage is doubled the same way as any other x2 crit weapon.
All of this is right, except, the Battle Poi is a light weapon (otherwise, it couldn't be made into an Agile weapon to begin with).
My only disagreement is that you get to add strength damage. The description says "The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". Since the weapon itself isn't dealing any damage, just the fire does, I'd treat it the same as a flame blade. "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage."
As a lot of the AA, the wording on this weapon could have used some polish. It SHOULD have come out and said you can't add strength. I'm not seeing how you can add physical strength damage to a weapon that can't deal physical damage.
Also on needing two to two weapon fight, it says "This pair of arm-length chains has handles at one end and heavy fuel-soaked torch heads at the other." It's a pair of torches, meaning one poi acts like a double weapon allowing one poi to be both weapons.
PS: Under Ability Score Bonuses it also says it's added to "weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)." It's like being attacked with a tiny torch. The weapon damage is - so no strength damage is added but the fire still does 1 point of fire damage.
@ mplindustries -- You are right, they changed from what they use to be in legacy of fire.
@ graystone -- without something in the text that actually states you do not add bonus damage then you still add bonus damage. It's a light weapon and uses all the rules for such unless the weapon itself states otherwise.
It does not have the double weapon feature therefore it is not a double weapon and it does not say that you do not add your strength modifier to damage therefore you do.
You PS doesn't matter at all since the attack roll is modified by strength and therefore the damage roll will be too.
@ graystone -- without something in the text that actually states you do not add bonus damage then you still add bonus damage. It's a light weapon and uses all the rules for such unless the weapon itself states otherwise.
I'd say that when it says it can't deal physical damage, it makes it a weapon that has weapon damage rolls that do not rely on Strength. For me, it doesn't have to come out and actually state it because you can add the dots to come up with that conclusion. Of course it would have been MUCH clearer if they did. In essence, the weapon actually deals physical damage - and fire damage 1d4. There is no physical damage die to add strength to.
It does not have the double weapon feature.
"This pair of arm-length chains has handles at one end and heavy fuel-soaked torch heads at the other." I've always read this as two (pair) chains with a handle on each chain and having a torch at the end. If it isn't, then I'm confused about it. IRL, poi's don't have multiple heads but are instead used in pairs so that's how I read it. It's true that double isn't in the properties so I guess I'll toss out the description and assume it's instead a single poi.
Well, the argument could be made that since it states it "cannot be used to deal physical damage", that even if your Str were added, it'd be moot because you're multiplying the damage by 0 anyway.
That's the way I see it. It's like a tiny torch. The damage dice drops to - from the damage chart so the only thing left is the 1 fire damage and strength isn't added to that.
It is very questionable, given how flame blade works, that the Poi as described should get bonus damage from strength. However, this is probably an oversite in the text of the weapon, and the rules for prohibiting giving this bonus are pretty weak.
That said, at my tables I wouldn't allow it.
Realistic justification-wise, the harder and firmer a hot thing touches something, the more damage it does. For example, you can lightly touch a hot surface without it really hurting. Gripping the same surface firmly? Yeah, it's going to hurt a lot more.
Ummm....no that is just wrong. How long you hold something hot will matter but generally speaking if you are touching something hot harder and firmer instead of lightly it won't really effect the amount of thermal transfer.
Under the benefits of the Strength score:
You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
* Melee attack rolls.
* Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)Under Light Weapons:
Light: A light weapon is used in one hand. It is easier to use in one's off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and can be used while grappling (see Combat). Add the wielder's Strength modifier to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it's used in the primary hand, or half the wielder's Strength bonus if it's used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder's primary hand only. An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.I don't see anything in there about the weapon having to deal piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage.
Realistic justification-wise, the harder and firmer a hot thing touches something, the more damage it does. For example, you can lightly touch a hot surface without it really hurting. Gripping the same surface firmly? Yeah, it's going to hurt a lot more.
Look under Ability Score Bonuses it also says strength bonuses are added to "weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)." Not all weapons add strength and for me, one that isn't able to deal physical damage would be one of them.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/glossary.html#ability-score-bonuses
Also look at DR. It's affected by "normal attacks" and "DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic." HOWEVER is goes on to say "Spells, spell-like abilities, and energy attacks (even nonmagical fire) ignore damage reduction."
So added up, the battle poi isn't a normal attack that deals weapon damage. It deals an energy attack with elemental fire damage.
To me, things like flameblade and produce flame make it clear how the game treats energy weapons. Note WHY Flame Blade doesn't allow strength. "Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage." Just replace "Since the blade is immaterial" with "The weight of the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage". Seems like a perfectly clear reason to not allow the poi strength bonuses. Or are you saying that the flame from the poi is material (the poi itself can't deal any physical damage per the description).
I saw this threads title and immediately the thoughts of a Luau gone horribly wrong!
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How long you hold something hot will matter but generally speaking if you are touching something hot harder and firmer instead of lightly it won't really effect the amount of thermal transfer.
If we're looking for physics analogues, there are two reasonable mechanisms by which increased force of application of the battle poi could cause a proportional increase in bodily harm. (1) The increased force increases the amount of burning oil that splashes from the poi onto the target. This oil will continue to burn after the poi itself has bounced off. More STR = More fire damage (2) While an unlit poi is, in and of itself, insufficient to cause appreciable bodily harm when wielded by an average person, a sufficiently strong person could cause some, albeit a small amount, of harm with it. Think of it as a tennis ball on a string. I personally could probably not inflict any real injury to someone with that. Shwarzenegger, on the other hand, could probably leave a pretty mean damn welt. It would basically serve only as a vehicle to translate the strength of one of his arms. The poi isn't doing the damage, the Governator is.
For mechanical reasons, I think the first justification would be a suitable analogue for the pathfinder rules. RAW, strength translates without any text saying otherwise. Physics wise, a stronger person jamming a lit torch into your face is going to hurt you worse. Either way, theyget STR to damage unless we get an FAQ.
It seems reasonable to treat them as torches for the purpose of lifetime and light shed. The heads would be about the same size so it makes enough sense.
I'd love to know if we ever actually got any clarification on whether or not you should add Str to damage with the poi. I've been holding off on making a poi character for years while waiting on that answer.
johnnythexxxiv: It seems SUPER clear that the poi gets no strength added. Would you throw a net and expect to add strength damage since thrown weapons add strength? Strength damage firing a Smoke arrow from a composite bow? With the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage, it's like trying to strength damage in a pillow fight. After all "the burning fuel deals fire damage" and strength has no affect on "burning fuel".
Murdock Mudeater: Modern poi using modern materials, like Kevlar, burn for @ 7-8 min with lamp oil. I think 5 min in pathfinder would be fine and if you use sand to put them out use can use the entire duration.
shed light: I'd say treat it as a Candle, though using it as a light source in combat would be distracting to say the least.
If you think you can't add strength to damage in a pillow fight, you clearly haven't been in the same pillow fights I have :P
The Battle Poi is a light weapon with the unique quality that the damage type is "Fire" instead of P/B/S. It follows all the rules for a light melee weapon.
It also has some confusion about whether it's one weapon or two. The statblock says it's a single weapon, but the description describes a pair of them. Assume that the text describes a pair of Poi.
It also lacks details about light and oil consumption. Given that it doesn't have rules about oil consumption, it's fair to assume that those are unimportant (that is, it consumes some small number of bottles of oil in the course of a work day, but it's not going to run out in the middle of combat).
Byakko: If what you say it true, then a torch should do strength damage twice. Once for the bludgeoning damage and once for the additional fire damage. That'd have to be right since the ability to "deal physical damage" isn't required.
Question: Do you think that the strength damage to the poi would be fire damage or fire. What about a torch? Does a Smoke arrow from a composite bow deal strength damage [since "physical damage" isn't required]. Same for a net.
See if you go "there isn't a rule that "physical damage" is required for strength damage, then you've got to accept that for everything. Dye, smoke and tanglefoot arrows, nets and Little Starstones start doing strength damage since not dealing physical damage doesn't mean anything to stop strength damage to weapons.
You say "But guess what? That doesn't matter.... the extra damage from strength isn't physical damage." Then what do you add it to that isn't physical? Please count out the ways you use your strength in a non-physical way... The net and other examples are fine as they have exactly the same physical damage roll that the poi does. A big "-", none, nada, zip... Why is "the poi is insufficient to deal physical damage" ANY different than a "-" in the damage? It isn't for strength damage
Because if it's as you say then why don't we add damage from strength to a torches fire damage? A flaming sword? See, strength damage gets added to that damage that goes vs DR. Elemental damage goes against resistance. So really, do torches in your game do d3 + strength + 1 fire, d3 + strength + 1 fire + strength fire or d3 + 1 fire + strength fire. It's got both physical and non-physical damage rolls after all...
EDIT: Also, look at Produce Flame. "you can hurl the flames up to 120 feet as a thrown weapon". If we go with "There are no special rules for the battle poi saying it doesn't get this bonus damage" then there are none for adding strength to things used "as a thrown weapon" right? I know I've never seen anyone add strength damage to one. Have you?
