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I agree, but your example is a bit confusing to me, obviously there is a baseline for competence, and frankly if the dwarven fighter doesn't have a better AC and damage (than the numbers you mentioned) by the point, that the other char can get levels in horizon walker, something is wrong.
Even with CORE, or alternatively just avoiding the cheesy builds, a a player with sufficient system mastery can get quite impressive results. Combining a paladin with wand of shield allows them to have a high AC and deal plenty of damage with a two handed weapon, simple "hacks" like that help a lot. You don't actually have to use the horizon hunter cheese.
It was an actually happened example, not a hypothetical to best support what I was saying one, so maybe didn't work right. Basically due to the vast amount of customization in the game, it is easy for two people to make two similar characters, but one just does everything better than the other. Call it optimization, systems mastery, or designing a character based on RP choices vs rules strength or whatever. When it comes down to those two players playing together, one of them is going to feel overshadowed/ inadequate compared to the other.
So when one player spends all their money on a magical pony and the other on +5 boots of ass kicking. one one-shots all the encounters and the other cant beat anything in a fight, do we tell them both they're playing the game wrong?
Some games are balanced by the designers, especially in video games where you get minimal choice so that even a badly built wizard can blast fireballs and do OK. But in pathfinder we are given the options of making a wizard who can instantly end encounters with save or die effects, or a wizard that can't even cast a single spell. While we assume players aren't so terrible at character creation as to make a 7 int wizard, there is a huge range of power in the choices available. So we're forcing the players to balance the game themselves.
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5) Not Good at Anything: Not sure why, but lately I've been seeing a lot of characters that try to do a little bit of everything so they really end up not contributing much of anything. Have a bow, but rarely hit or do much damage. Have a melee weapon, but can't really do much in melee combat. Have a few attack spells, but the DC's are so low they usually fail. Have a single die of sneak attack damage, but not enough to really bother working to set them up for it. Have a single channel or low level heal spell, but not enough to make a difference. Not as problematic as 4), but it still really doesn't help much.
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Sorry, I couldn't get the above to quote properly.
I just wanted to comment on this: it's bad form, yes, but it can also mean that the person who made the character is a newer player / a player with low rules mastery. Maybe it could be helpful to players of these kind of characters if you were to give them advice? They're not actively trying to ruin your PFS experience and are playing as best they can.
I personally built a terrible first character, but with the helpful advice of local players, I now have two reasonably effective ones (the first has since been retired from play on account of being unviable).
It's bad form to have a useless character, but may I politely suggest helping those kind of people rather than complaining about them online?
Sorry.
I apologize if it came across as being upset by new players. That is certainly not the case.
I make lots of characters for new players. And am more than happy to help them build their own as their skill increases and they want to give it a shot. I enjoy that.I have no problems with a new player at the table. We nearly all enjoy showing off our cool hobby to someone new. Not a problem at all.
I'm talking about guys that intentionally/knowingly build PC's that just aren't very useful.
Some examples I've seen:
Rogue 2/paladin 2/oracle 2/alchemist 1. Highest ability is a 14. No 2 feats support any particular combat or non-combat actions. Has spells, bombs, archery, melee, and skills. But none of them effective enough to be other than 3rd tertiary support. The guy has been playing PFS longer than me.
Lore warden 1/cleric 3/bard 2. Says it is an archer build. But rarely shoots. Mostly just 1st level buff spells. Not completely useless. But not even as effective as the 4th level pregens. He stopped planning his characters to take whatever seemed like it would have been most useful in the previous scenario.
Unarmored THW melee that dumped con "for the challenge" of the concept. Has to be rescued almost every single combat. Once my sorc stood over his unconscious body absorbing hits, because I was more durable.
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White haired witch / other class , grappling focused, obviously not useless without the core gimmick, but it tends to limit their choices in combat.
They are still a full arcane caster.
You could refrain from castinghaste, but your party members might not appreciate that.
The point is not to nerf yourself for the sake of power or usefulness, but to nerf yourself for the sake of not dominating or disrupting the table. If the party doesn't appreciate you not casting haste then you are doing it wrong.
It really is not an issue of not being able to use your power option, rather that not using then sometimes feels like you are shortchanging your team. Sorry but this area is dominated by feelings, expectations and endorphin.
What you are trying to accomplish is not to never use your power option(s) but rather to not use it all the time. I have a double-barrel pistol gunslinger that can easily dominate a table (even though he only uses one pistol). It is not infrequent for me to hold back by only firing one barrel at a time. Still effective, but not devastating. There have been more than a few occasions when the party has turned to me and screamed "KILL IT! KILL IT NOW!" and I then cut loose with everything I've got. You could still argue I was dominating the table at that point, but most people would prefer that to a TPK.
Now, as to one of your other points, I agree it is better to build your character with the idea of not dominating the table in the first place as you are more likely to enjoy it, but you can still do that with builds that are normally considered broken. An archer doesn't have to use all of their feats on archery feats. A Slumber Hex witch doesn't have to focus all their feats and hexes on increasing the chance of Slumber Hex working.
Versatility is not only a frequently useful option in PFS, it is also usually a fun one.
What I am trying to point out is that focusing on "bad form" builds can cause us to miss what the real problem is and thus not actually address it. You have to look at why the build is a problem and what can be done to prevent that problem or you can still end up with "bad form" even if you don't pick a "bad form" build.
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What I am trying to point out is that focusing on "bad form" builds can cause us to miss what the real problem is and thus not actually address it. You have to look at why the build is a problem and what can be done to prevent that problem or you can still end up with "bad form" even if you don't pick a "bad form" build.
Agreed. Any build, whether it be overpowered, underpowered or just average can devastate a table in the hands of a disruptive player.
If you like to minmax, that's totally okay. You just have to follow the Uncle Ben "great power→ great responsibility" rule. If you like to minmin...well...that's trickier. I believe a character needs to be capable of contributing a base level of utility to a party. But what constitutes that base level is arguably subjective.
Still, I think it's okay to have an open conversation about what builds, equipment, tactics, etc. that you've encountered rub you the wrong way. A player is welcome to still pick those options, but it's good to be informed that it may raise some eyebrows and is therefore best handled with care.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Maybe I'm just very unlucky, but I've seen a lot of this recently as well:
"Not Good at Anything: Not sure why, but lately I've been seeing a lot of characters that try to do a little bit of everything so they really end up not contributing much of anything. Have a bow, but rarely hit or do much damage. Have a melee weapon, but can't really do much in melee combat. Have a few attack spells, but the DC's are so low they usually fail. Have a single die of sneak attack damage, but not enough to really bother working to set them up for it. Have a single channel or low level heal spell, but not enough to make a difference. Not as problematic as 4), but it still really doesn't help much. "
Sadly, my lorewarden/rogue falls into this category. Shoulda mind a mindchemist.
Well, I guess the question you could ask yourself is, are you happy with the character performance, and would you built him differently?
Some characters really only shine with sufficient support.
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I don't know. I really like the concept, but there is always someone better and knowledge at the table, someone better at perception, and someone better at damage, even though the character is passable at all of those things. This PC has been at the table with a lot of pet classes, too. Probably skewing my view.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I agree, but your example is a bit confusing to me, obviously there is a baseline for competence, and frankly if the dwarven fighter doesn't have a better AC and damage (than the numbers you mentioned) by the point, that the other char can get levels in horizon walker, something is wrong.
Even with CORE, or alternatively just avoiding the cheesy builds, a a player with sufficient system mastery can get quite impressive results. Combining a paladin with wand of shield allows them to have a high AC and deal plenty of damage with a two handed weapon, simple "hacks" like that help a lot. You don't actually have to use the horizon hunter cheese.
It was an actually happened example, not a hypothetical to best support what I was saying one, so maybe didn't work right. Basically due to the vast amount of customization in the game, it is easy for two people to make two similar characters, but one just does everything better than the other. Call it optimization, systems mastery, or designing a character based on RP choices vs rules strength or whatever. When it comes down to those two players playing together, one of them is going to feel overshadowed/ inadequate compared to the other.
So when one player spends all their money on a magical pony and the other on +5 boots of ass kicking. one one-shots all the encounters and the other cant beat anything in a fight, do we tell them both they're playing the game wrong?
Some games are balanced by the designers, especially in video games where you get minimal choice so that even a badly built wizard can blast fireballs and do OK. But in pathfinder we are given the options of making a wizard who can instantly end encounters with save or die effects, or a wizard that can't even cast a single spell. While we assume players aren't so terrible at character creation as to make a 7 int wizard, there is a huge range of power in the choices available. So we're forcing the players to balance the game themselves.
After a number of years playing to hobby I have come to the understanding, that one size really doesn't fit all. One of my players has a rather different opinion that me when it comes to difficulty. I argue that the players should face a challenge that is set ahead of time, they might use unusual tactics that invalidate part of it, but lowering or increasing the difficulty mid adventure. ( I like to call this the Dark Souls approach). He thinks, that players having fun, and feeling successful is the prime target and this is worth sacrificing adventure integrity for. Players think of a tactic that does't work based on the fact that the e.g. the castle does not have a moat, or the dragon would be to smart, to eat the horde of poisoned cows that suddenly appeared in front of his cave.
While those two approaches are (or at least seem) diametricly opposed we still mangage to play together and GM for each other.
I would argue, that the situation when players with a different level of proficiency is pretty similar, as long as people manage to find at least some level of common ground. For instance I find it very appealing, to built characters with a certain concept (or I am just trying to copy an existing character from other areas), but since those concepts are usually not very optimal for PFS, it requires a certain amount of powergaming to produce a character that is at decent to good.
However I am willing to facilitate other peoples concept only to a point, the character has to be at least viable without the support of another character. Not asking for great, but while most VCs will send the first 4 Pathfinders they happen to meet to a mission, even they would not send a syphilitic leper.
And of course people have to face some of the realities of PFS, like buying consumables, getting the mandatory wand of CLW, and understanding that only you are responsible for your healing (decursing...).
If someone is unwilling and resistant to constructive critique, I am not that inclined to help, and if that means that I will heal the other guy when two party members lie dying...
Overpowered characters are much easier to deal with, they usually understand, why they are overpowered, and should be receptive to the feelings of the other players.
I realize that it might be intimidating for a new player so play with an optimized character, but when the sh°t hits the windmill, they will be happy for their presence.
And I would personally not tell anyone that they are playing the game wrong, unless that results in an adversarial situation with the GM, that is really not acceptable.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I don't know. I really like the concept, but there is always someone better and knowledge at the table, someone better at perception, and someone better at damage, even though the character is passable at all of those things. This PC has been at the table with a lot of pet classes, too. Probably skewing my view.
Care to post the build? We might be able to help. Oh and level really is an issue here, in about 1/3 of the scenarios my AC really does not deal damage, DR is a bit tricky.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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I have no problems with a new player at the table. We nearly all enjoy showing off our cool hobby to someone new. Not a problem at all.I'm talking about guys that intentionally/knowingly build PC's that just aren't very useful.
Some examples I've seen:
Rogue 2/paladin 2/oracle 2/alchemist 1. Highest ability is a 14. No 2 feats...
Some of those are kind or painful, how do the other players react, when someone brings their "special" characters to the table? Has this already resulted in deaths or failed scenarios?
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Unarmored THW melee that dumped con "for the challenge" of the concept. Has to be rescued almost every single combat. Once my sorc stood over his unconscious body absorbing hits, because I was more durable.
I must admit - I'd probably just let a character like that die if it put my character in that much risk.
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Sure: She just hit level seven. I don't have an electronic version, so manual it is.
She's a lorewarden/rogue elf that uses weapon finesse to finesse an elven curve blade. I think the fundamental problem is that I deviated from the mathematically superior STR stat. And, of course, rogues.
Rogue 3/Lorewarden 4
ST 14
DEX 20
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 10
CHA 10
Feat list:
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Improved Feint
Blind Fighting
Breadth of Experience
Vital Strike
The build also has acrobatics maxed and some boots of elvenkind for maximum acrobatics positioning. I'm gonna try to UMD a wand of lead blades to maximize the effectiveness of the curve blade and vital strike. The idea is to be a mobile fighter and provide skill support. I plan to eventually build into felling smash, since this PC provides a fairly good opportunity to use that feat.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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White haired witch / other class , grappling focused, obviously not useless without the core gimmick, but it tends to limit their choices in combat.They are still a full arcane caster.
You could refrain from castinghaste, but your party members might not appreciate that.The point is not to nerf yourself for the sake of power or usefulness, but to nerf yourself for the sake of not dominating or disrupting the table. If the party doesn't appreciate you not casting haste then you are doing it wrong.
It really is not an issue of not being able to use your power option, rather that not using then sometimes feels like you are shortchanging your team. Sorry but this area is dominated by feelings, expectations and endorphin.What you are trying to accomplish is not to never use your power option(s) but rather to not use it all the time. I have a double-barrel pistol gunslinger that can easily dominate a table (even though he only uses one pistol). It is not infrequent for me to hold back by only firing one barrel at a time. Still effective, but not devastating. There have been more than a few occasions when the party has turned to me and screamed "KILL IT! KILL IT NOW!" and I then cut loose with everything I've got. You could still argue I was dominating the table at that point, but most people would prefer that to a TPK.
Now, as to one of your other points, I agree it is better to build your character with the idea of not dominating the table in the first place as you are more likely to enjoy it, but you can still do that with builds that are normally considered broken. An archer doesn't have to use all of their feats on archery feats. A Slumber Hex witch doesn't have to focus all their feats and hexes on increasing the chance of Slumber Hex working.
Versatility is not only a frequently useful option in PFS, it is also usually a fun one.
What I am trying to point out is that focusing on "bad form" builds can...
Regarding archers, I can really recommend tangleshot arrows (or shuriken) since they can decrease attacks , saves, and AC so at least once other party member will be able to benefit from that.
If your party has animal companions or other characters with scent, they will appreciate pheromone arrows. Alchemy manual and ranged character toolbox have other similar options.I guess, the best idea might be to carefuly build an effective character that can carry the team when necessary (like when the team has been rolling single digits for 3 turns), but does have options to hold back/play to support others. And to recognize which options can be unreasonably disruptive.
Though with season 6 I can understand, that some people feel the need to be well prepared (actually season 4 and 5 scenarios have been pretty damn rough sometimes).
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Sure: She just hit level seven. I don't have an electronic version, so manual it is.
She's a lorewarden/rogue elf that uses weapon finesse to finesse an elven curve blade. I think the fundamental problem is that I deviated from the mathematically superior STR stat. And, of course, rogues.
Rogue 3/Lorewarden 4
ST 14
DEX 20
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 10
CHA 10Feat list:
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Improved Feint
Blind Fighting
Breadth of Experience
Vital StrikeThe build also has acrobatics maxed and some boots of elvenkind for maximum acrobatics positioning. I'm gonna try to UMD a wand of lead blades to maximize the effectiveness of the curve blade and vital strike. The idea is to be a mobile fighter and provide skill support. I plan to eventually build into felling smash, since this PC provides a fairly good opportunity to use that feat.
I also have a 7th level elven curve blade finessing character. With a +1 agile curve blade and 3 ranger levels to get power attack without needing to meet the str requirement, she does quite well. I'm only getting 2 more damage/swing than you for the agile, which you more than make up for when you get your sneak. Seems good to me. I'd suggest taking some improved combat maneuver feat(s), you have the two pre-requisite feats for all the improved combat maneuvers and the lorewarden bonus to cmb, might as well get some use out of it.
Some of those are kind or painful, how do the other players react, when someone brings their "special" characters to the table? Has this already resulted in deaths or failed scenarios?
I have no problems with a new player at the table. We nearly all enjoy showing off our cool hobby to someone new. Not a problem at all.I'm talking about guys that intentionally/knowingly build PC's that just aren't very useful.
Some examples I've seen:
Rogue 2/paladin 2/oracle 2/alchemist 1. Highest ability is a 14. No 2 feats...
Lore warden 1/cleric 3/bard 2. This player's characters are always multiclass mess archers. None of them are that great, but none are completely awful. Most are at least close to the usefulness of a pregen. We at least don't usually have to spend any additional resources saving him since he is an archer at the back (and usually the first to run). This particular one is the worst of his that I've seen. Most of us don't seem to mind his characters all that much. He is usually at least somewhat useful. I don't understand why he enjoys being at a level of "Well I suppose having him along is better than nothing."
That PC was part of a mission fail, 2 deaths, and 2 captured scenario. But in all honesty it really wasn't his fault. The particular set of PC's was just wrong for the mission and we really misunderstood what we were trying to do and what we were up against. It was really a mash-up. If he had been a uber optimized DPR death machine, he just might have saved us from ourselves. But I certainly don't count that against him.
Unarmored THW melee that dumped con. I really worked to help this guy and keep him alive because I thought he was probably new-ish (4th level), just didn't have much system knowledge, maybe he was trying to recreate a movie character that just doesn't work well in PFS (or at least not the way he did it). I didn't find out until after the scenario was over, that he does know the system and built it that way on purpose. This guy seemed to annoy almost everyone at the table (even the GM) with his net minus contribution. I certainly won't try very hard to save him if he is ever at a table with me in the future.
Usually a really weak builds at the table don't bother me too much. Our local is almost always full tables. So normally the other 5 guys can still handle what is required. But sometimes we have more than 1 at a table, 1 weak and a few new guys, a 4 person table, or a particularly difficult scenario. Then it starts to become more aggravating.
Again, to be clear, I have no problem with the guys who are less skilled, still learning, new to the game, experimenting with a new concept, willing to accept suggestions, etc... We were all at that level at some point. It is the people that could build something at least somewhat effective but choose not to do so and apparently don't care that it is making things tough on the others around them.
Nails on a slate...
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Sure: She just hit level seven. I don't have an electronic version, so manual it is.
She's a lorewarden/rogue elf that uses weapon finesse to finesse an elven curve blade. I think the fundamental problem is that I deviated from the mathematically superior STR stat. And, of course, rogues.
Rogue 3/Lorewarden 4
ST 14
DEX 20
CON 12
INT 15
WIS 10
CHA 10Feat list:
Toughness
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Power Attack
Furious Focus
Improved Feint
Blind Fighting
Breadth of Experience
Vital StrikeThe build also has acrobatics maxed and some boots of elvenkind for maximum acrobatics positioning. I'm gonna try to UMD a wand of lead blades to maximize the effectiveness of the curve blade and vital strike. The idea is to be a mobile fighter and provide skill support. I plan to eventually build into felling smash, since this PC provides a fairly good opportunity to use that feat.
I tried to recreate a rough version of your character with Hero Lab:
Davids Char
Elf fighter (lore warden) 4/rogue 3 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +5 Dex)
hp 56 (7 HD; 3d8+4d10+14)
Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +3; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, trap sense +1; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile elven curve blade +12/+7 (1d10+6/18-20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +2d6
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +10; CMD 25
Feats Blind-fight, Breadth Of Experience[APG], Combat Expertise, Furious Focus[APG], Improved Feint, Power Attack, Toughness, Vital Strike, Weapon Finesse
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +15, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (engineering) +10, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +12, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +12, Knowledge (religion) +11, Linguistics +7, Perception +10, Ride +9, Stealth +9, Use Magic Device +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Elven, Hallit
SQ elven magic, rogue talent (combat trick), trapfinding +1
Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 agile elven curve blade, belt of incredible dexterity +2, 150 gp
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Tracked Resources
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. . -none-
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Special Abilities
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Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Blind-Fight Re-roll misses because of concealment, other benefits.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Improved Feint You can make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a move action.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sneak Attack +2d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +1 (Ex) +1 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +1 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Vital Strike Standard action: x2 weapon damage dice.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Some general thoughts:
Improved feint is a trap option for this build, it allows you a chance to be able to do sneak attack damage, but those 2d6 really do not warrant it.
Most of the time you are better of moving or trying to get a full attack, especially with a high crit weapon (since vital strike does not work well with crits) and the possible option of haste.
Furious Focus, while being far better feat, only works if you only get one attack, which should not always be the case, depending on group composition.
My suggestions would be the following:
Retrain levels/take a level in the slayer class, this gives you BAB and :
A slayer can study an opponent he
can see as a move action. The slayer then gains a +1 bonus
on Bluff, Knowledge, Perception, Sense Motive, and Survival
checks attempted against that opponent, and a +1 bonus on
weapon attack and damage rolls against it. The DCs of slayer
class abilities against that opponent increase by 1. A slayer
can only maintain these bonuses against one opponent
at a time; these bonuses remain in effect until either the
opponent is dead or the slayer studies a new target.
If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a target, he can
study that target as an immediate action, allowing him
to apply his studied target bonuses against that target
(including to the normal weapon damage roll).
At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels, the bonuses on weapon
attack and damage rolls, as well as the bonus to slayer ability
DCs against a studied, target increase by 1. In addition,
at each such interval, the slayer is able to maintain these
bonuses against an additional studied target at the same
time. The slayer may discard this connection to a studied
target as a free action, allow ing him to study another
target in its place.
Since you already have sneak attack, you can benefit from studied target as an immediate action.(Studied target also gives a bonus to your knowledge rolls against ..the target).
Once you get to level 2 you get can get a bonus ranger combat style feat, if you were to remake the character completely something like this would allow you to pick up power attack without 13 Strength.
Alternatively and in addition to the slayer suggestion (at least one level) take a levels as Kensai magus, this gives you access to :
- Arcane pool: increase the enhancement bonus of your weapon by 1 (which as you know can get expensive in PFS)
-Spellcasting: You are likely not able to use this in combat, since your armor choice is limited by the Kensai archetype, but it has plenty of uses out of combat.
-Improved will save
-Weapon Focus
-Canny Defense (2 levels = +2 AC)
And if you take more levels spellstrike (try to cast a touch spell before combat), access to magus arcana becomes an option.
With at least 1 level of magus, you will be able to activate the following wands, without having to rely on UMD: shield, vanish, enlarge person (decent for vital strikers), long arm... and many others. And UMD becomes a class skill.
If I were to remake the character, it would end like this:
Davids Char
Elf magus (kensai) 2/slayer 5 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 53, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 55, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 24, touch 17, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +5 Dex, +2 dodge)
hp 58 (7 HD; 2d8+5d10+14)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +5; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities canny defense; Immune sleep
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 agile elven curve blade +13/+8 (1d10+6/18-20)
Special Attacks arcane pool (+1, 3 points), sneak attack +1d6, spell combat, spellstrike, studied target +2 (2nd, move action)
Magus (Kensai) Spells Prepared (CL 2nd; concentration +4)
. . 1st—shield, vanish[APG] (DC 13)
. . 0 (at will)—dancing lights, detect magic, prestidigitation
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Statistics
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 13, Int 15, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +7; CMD 24
Feats Breadth Of Experience[APG], Combat Expertise, Deific Obedience, Power Attack, Toughness, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (elven curve blade)
Traits armor expert, indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +15, Knowledge (arcana) +12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +11, Knowledge (engineering) +7, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +7, Knowledge (local) +9, Knowledge (nature) +9, Knowledge (nobility) +4, Knowledge (planes) +11, Knowledge (religion) +7, Linguistics +4, Perception +10, Ride +9, Stealth +9, Use Magic Device +10; Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Spellcraft to identify magic item properties
Languages Common, Elven, Hallit
SQ chosen weapon, combat style (two-handed weapon), elven magic, slayer talents (combat trick, ranger combat style), track +2
Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 agile elven curve blade, belt of incredible dexterity +2, 150 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Arcane Pool +1 (3/day) (Su) - 0/3
Studied Target +2 (move action, 2 at a time) (Ex) - 0/2
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool +1 (3/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Canny Defense +2 (Ex) +INT bonus to AC (max Kensai level).
Chosen Weapon (Elven curve blade) Kensai abilities only function when wielding a weapon of this type.
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Deific Obedience Purify yourself daily to prove devotion to a deity and gain benefits.
Elven Immunities - Sleep You are immune to magic sleep effects.
Elven Magic +2 to spellcraft checks to determine the properties of a magic item.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Sneak Attack +1d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
Studied Target +2 (move action, 2 at a time) (Ex) Study foe as a Move action, gain +2 to att/dam & some skills vs. them.
Track +2 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
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Obviously lead blades is still a good choice for users of an elven curve blade.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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** spoiler omitted **...Some of those are kind or painful, how do the other players react, when someone brings their "special" characters to the table? Has this already resulted in deaths or failed scenarios?
I have no problems with a new player at the table. We nearly all enjoy showing off our cool hobby to someone new. Not a problem at all.I'm talking about guys that intentionally/knowingly build PC's that just aren't very useful.
Some examples I've seen:
Rogue 2/paladin 2/oracle 2/alchemist 1. Highest ability is a 14. No 2 feats...
Your heart is obviously in the right place, we should all be considerate and welcoming to players with "special" characters. Obviously there is a line, and once you know what you are doing, it becomes tough to justify and support this behavior.
This hits particularly close to home, since my brother tends to built rather cheesy powerful characters, but really tends to make it difficult for others during actual play. His characters concepts keep getting weirder..
Oh well, I can bear quite a lot as long as people are good company, even if it hurts every optimzing bone in my body... kinda like when my grandmother speaks english.... her accent is pretty painful^^
I'm reading this thread for actual "in my circles people frown upon X", but in the meantime, I'm zombied, so:
1) Slumber Hex witch: Perfectly viable and reasonable. But have something else to do. If the only action you ever take is 'Slumber Hex' you will get bored and the others will get annoyed. I saw one a few months ago that when the encounter was a bunch of undead, he literally did absolutely nothing for the entire combat. He was practically pouting because there was an opponent against which he couldn't use slumber hex.
Did someone point out to the pouter he's a full caster? Jeez.
Big Idea 1:
Don't nuke what you don't have to nuke. Let the game play. It's sort f metagamey, but true. In the case of the Slumber Hex - don't Hex everything. There may be more interesting actions for you take for the table.
Big Idea 2:
When your build isn't up against its ideal opponent, or whatever, roll with it. In the case of the Slumber Hex - you should probably have Misfortune, oh, and some spells, or a cure wand, anything...
Big Idea 3:
Play it through. Everyone is there to play, so if something is working, you don't know this or that part of how your character works - take that as a note to be better and concede the field. Make a choice that speeds/eases play or let the GM make a call and let the other players get on with it. But get to know how to your character works and be prepared for table-variation stuff not to go your way.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Guy with no Pants is bad form .. both GM and Player.. unless your online, then it might be okay.
:)
Not wearing proper pants (shorts, or baggy workout clothes are acceptable) seem mandatory.
But while we are in this area, I assume everybody feels the same about strong body odor, disruptive cell phone calls and people eating noxious things at the table (resulting in something like gorgon's breath).
Oh and remember a hungry GM is quite dangerous, it is wiser to pacify the wild creature with snacks^^
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Oh and remember a hungry GM is quite dangerous, it is wiser to pacify the wild creature with snacks^^
I don't always remember first, but I always try to offer to get the GM a drink and/or snack. It's just polite, since he is there making it possible for us to play. The game needs him much more than it needs me.