Do the Crossblooded and Blood Conduit archetypes stack for Bloodrager?

[SOLDIER-1st]

Exactly as the title asks. It seems like they don't, but Crossblooded calls them bonus feats and Blood Conduit calls them bloodline feats, so I'm not sure exactly if there's some distinction I'm overlooking or it's something they overlooked when writing it.

[MurphysParadox]

I would say yes, but for a different reason. They both affect the bloodline feats (both archetypes use the term "bloodline bonus feats") but they only add to them. Archetypes cannot be chosen if they overlap on what is being removed or modified, but when it is adding options, I think it is fine.

[Mnasyllus]

I 2nd the notion MurphysParadox

[Pharoah4187]

I'm inclined to say that they don't stack. My reasoning is as follows:

As MurphysParadox points out, you cannot take an archetype if it alters or removes the same class feature. Adding feats is an alteration.

Crossblooded modifies various aspects of your bloodline class feature, including the Bloodline Feats (by adding them both together).

Blood Conduit alters the Bloodline Feats by adding another subset of feats.

Since both archetypes alter Bloodline Feats, they are mutually exclusive. It would be enormously helpful in a ruling if Crossblooded was updated to include phrasing like "This alters your Bloodline class feature" or "This alters your Bloodline feats", but alas... it is totally devoid of any such language. I think the overall feeling of including them would be "It's against the RAW, but a DM would not be wrong for allowing the combination in his home games" (similar to the Tattooed/Crossblooded Sorcerer which are disallowed because both modify the 1st Bloodline power).

[James Risner]

MurphysParadox wrote:

Archetypes cannot be chosen if they overlap on what is being removed or modified, but when it is adding options, I think it is fine.

The words used is alter. Alter includes removing, modifying, adding to, exchanging, and every other word a mention could possibly include.

So because they are mentioned, they do not stack. This confusion happens all the time and there are FAQ making this clear (for example Crossblooded and Wild Blooded don't stack.)

[claudekennilol]

James has the right of it, they don't stack. Murhpy says "they cannot be chosen if they overlap" but the word is "alter, like James pointed out.

[SOLDIER-1st]

Agreed, but back to my original question, do 'bonus feats' and 'Bloodline feats' mean the same thing in this instance, or are they actually different in some way I am unaware of?

[Carla the Profane]

Id say they would stack, since Blood Conduit specifically calls out:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

"This ability alters bloodline feats"

While crossblooded says:

Advanced Class Guide wrote:

"A crossblooded rager combines the bonus feat lists from both of his bloodlines and can select his bloodline bonus feats from this combined list."

In my view the Crossblooded rager doesn't change the bloodline feats at all, it just allows you to choose from two list at the same time since you have two bloodlines. It doesn't change any of the feats already present in the lists, or alter anything in the way these lists work (similar to the Qingqong monk archetype not changing Ki abilities, just expanding on them).

Also, in the case of the Blood Conduit, why would they call out the 'alter' specifically and leave it out in the Crossblooded description?

[James Risner]

Carla the Profane wrote:

Crossblooded rager doesn't change the bloodline feats at all, it just allows you to choose from two list

Change wrote:

change verb

make or become different.
take or use another instead of.

Alter wrote:

alter verb

change or cause to change in character or composition, typically in a comparatively small but significant way.

In order for it not to change, then the ability must be identical to the original. So you believe that allowing you to pick from two lists is identical? How? You get to choose from two lists not one. How is that identical?

[Carla the Profane]

The lists are identical, it's the bloodlines that changed.

[James Risner]

Carla the Profane wrote:

The lists are identical, it's the bloodlines that changed.

Ok, so the bloodline feature was changed, therefore it doesn't

Blood Condit wrote:

This ability replaces fast movement and alters bloodline feats.

This alters the bloodline feats.

Crossblooded wrote:

A crossblooded sorcerer combines the bonus feat lists from both of her bloodlines and may select her bloodline bonus feats from this combined list.

This alters the feat list to include feats from both lists.

This is a classic example of "alter" and they do not stack (Blood Conduit and Crossblooded.)

[Gisher]

I'm pretty sure that James is correct. Take a look at the Crossblooded Sorcerer/Wildblooded Sorcerer FAQ that he mentioned earlier.

The two situations are very similar.

[Carla the Profane]

Fair enough, thanks for the comments guys