Goblin Squad Member
|
Not all divine attacks provoke opportunity. In fact there are plenty of divine attacks that do not even root the castor according to the list. I am strongly against nerfing. What I suggest is that ALL melee range feats should neither provoke opportunity or be rooted(though I don't think anything should be rooted except someone on the receiving end of a web spell or bola to the legs).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
My Alpha melee caster build used melee arcane attacks that do not do provoke (though with cloth armor the build wasn't very effective in pvp): Eel's Touch, Sonic Thrust and Windrider.
thanks for your correction though I must say those are three utterly horrible spells the highest dmg factor being eel's touch at .83 even with a cool down of .8 with cloth armor you'd be hacked to pieces. Windrider appears to be the most useful with a damage factor of .8 a cooldown of .7 and evade 10 meters to self. In game that 10 meters looks more like 10 feet and is virtually useless. Then there is Sonic thrust wich is a fantastic spell if they add fall damage and your opponent is kind enough to stand near a cliff(within 10 feet judging by GW measurement). With a damage factor of .22 the fast cool down of .6 is meaningless. Well I guess these ARE feats but if they were in your hot key's during a fight wouldn't it be more accurate to call them mistakes?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Are you suggesting we bring in concentration from TT ??
EDIT:
I have thought about this and I totally disagree about arcane melee attacks not provoking.
1) the classic difference between Clerics and Divine Casters has always been that Battle Clerics and Druids teneded to be close combat melee monsters whereas Arcane casters are glass cannons typically fighting from range (there is a reason why flying invisible fireballing sorcerors functionaing as heavy artillery are a sterotype classic arcanist). If you wanted to build a melee arcanist you needed to build a Gish.
2) It provide a useful distinction between the roles. The modern MMO thing of making all roles kinda identical in the name of "balance" sorta sux really.
3) Spells liek Wraith Cry on a +2 Diminishing are amongst the most powerful melee attacks in game, something needs to balance that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Are you suggesting we bring in concentration from TT ??
EDIT:
I have thought about this and I totally disagree about arcane melee attacks not provoking.
1) the classic difference between Clerics and Divine Casters has always been that Battle Clerics and Druids teneded to be close combat melee monsters whereas Arcane casters are glass cannons typically fighting from range (there is a reason why flying invisible fireballing sorcerors functionaing as heavy artillery are a sterotype classic arcanist). If you wanted to build a melee arcanist you needed to build a Gish.
2) It provide a useful distinction between the roles. The modern MMO thing of making all roles kinda identical in the name of "balance" sorta sux really.
3) Spells liek Wraith Cry on a +2 Diminishing are amongst the most powerful melee attacks in game, something needs to balance that.
1. I agree IF arcane casters were glass cannons as they should be however they do LESS dps than melee and bow users AND are still glass not to mention they are fing IMMOBILE GLASS.!!!
2. A distinction between roles is fine. Balance between roles should be a rock paper scissors type of balance. Example assassin(stealth) kills wiz wiz(range control) kills knight knight(tank ability) kills assassin.
3. Wraiths cry at 3.81 huh well lets take a look shall we. Impale 4.02 streak penetrating frightened 20 with a better range of 4. Plenty on this list that do more damage with no provoke and no rooting both divine and melee https://sodadb.com/api.php?i=rj9avQq4tbShIDZGeHmW
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
"Why aren't there attacks without Opprutunity"
"[lists attacks with that property]"
"Why don't any of those attacks have the advantages that Opprutunity is used to offset"
"Because they don't have Opprutunity."
Are you asking for copypasta attack feats for each weapon type? Because that would suck worse than anything else I can imagine someone asking for.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
There is more to it than the ability to stand in melee and deal huge damage.
Sure depending on what "it" is. If you are talking about a glass cannon then it must be weaker then other classes and do more damage. Also I did not want to "stand in melee" the idea of immobilizing glass cannons is ridiculous at best but the in game reality is even worse because arcane castors are not cannons at all EVERY other class does more dps!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Also, Energetic Field is on the verge of becoming that thing that everyone takes that the devs always told us they wanted to avoid.
Yup. If every scruffy bandit in the woods is running around with a staff spamming Energetic Field in order to run down prey, then even the most dull-witted and unimaginative midden-digger needs it too. The speed boost cantrips and orisons seem to overwhelm the minor speed boosts from the armor feats.
|
Goblinworks Executive Founder
|
Oh I see you don't understand or did't read guess that'll happen eh. Try again. I clearly explain why those spells are essentially worthless but perhaps you are bad with numbers? What I am asking for is wizards to BE the glass cannon they are supposed to be rather than just the glass paper weight they are failing that id ask that people like you try to use the forum to make the game better rather than consistently downplaying other's honest effort. Also i want good grass."Why aren't there attacks without Opprutunity"
"[lists attacks with that property]"
"Why don't any of those attacks have the advantages that Opprutunity is used to offset"
"Because they don't have Opprutunity."Are you asking for copypasta attack feats for each weapon type? Because that would suck worse than anything else I can imagine someone asking for.
You can build a glass cannon wizard.
You can also build a character that is a wizard that isn't a glass cannon.
Many of the cantrips you dislike are not intended to be used in the build that maximizes glass cannonage.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You can build a glass cannon wizard.
Not really. I mean, you can make the "glass" part, but the "cannon" is noticeably lacking.
There are 4 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the highest Cantrip.
There are 30 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the 2nd highest Cantrip.
There are 8 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the highest Tier 1 Wizard Spell.
Wizards' evasion/knockback options also seem pretty ineffective. Arctic Winds is nice, but the AoE effects make it difficult to use in a dynamic situation without causing problems for allies. All the other Evade/Knockback effects have a maximum range of 20 meters, which means you can't use them until that guy with a Spear is already close enough to hit you with a Charge.
I'm looking forward to the Dedication Bonus...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Nihimon, while there are plenty of attacks that have higher damage factors, don't they hit the more common physical resistance? Just curious, as I haven't played a wizard.
Yes, I very well understand that the combat system is about a lot more than Damage Factor. I also very well understand that I'm not particularly good at PvP (yet). But I'll also point out that there are lots of ways for non-Wizards to add significant amounts of Base Damage to their attacks. Killing Joke matching three Keywords can hit for a max damage of around 130. Basic Longbow Exploit with Master of Opportunity: Suffer can hit for a max damage of around 230. You are aware that there's only one way a pure Wizard can add anything to his Base Damage (aside from matching more Keywords), and that this requires putting himself within 6 meters of his targets and then standing stationary for 2.3 seconds, right?
I am somewhat frustrated that pure Wizard builds are, for the time being, utterly ineffective against Heavy Armored, self-healing, hasting, slowing, Spear users. I'm also aware of how this will probably change as we progress into higher tiers, so no need to remind me of that.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I applaud anyone that manages to stick to *any* pure build at this point in the game.
I am failing hardcore at that, then again I was always a FotM-kind off guy. :) Not a good thing with PFO.
So I am a Bow user for that hard punch, sporting a Symbol for Lesser Cure, a Trophy for Augment and a Diminishing staff with some levels in Shadow Blast and Wraiths Cry to mow down those low level camps. Oh, and Energetic Field, off course.
In medium armor, so I haven't gone all "tanky" with it. Though I am tempted....
And this guy is supposed to be my main Scavenger and Forester too....
I can already see that I will have to give up on some of that, but it's hard.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If casting any spell from the school evocation didn't provoke attacks of opportunity that would be awesome. Though I mean that for Pathfinder in general not just the online game.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What Wizards need right now is a Dedication Bonus.
Also, Energetic Field is on the verge of becoming that thing that everyone takes that the devs always told us they wanted to avoid.
verge? I have not seen any characters without it for over a week.
The only downside to the spell is stopping at every hex boundary and waiting for the buff to fall off so you don't get desynched when you cross into the next hex.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stephen Cheney 01.26.2015 09:41
Game Designer
Yeah, I've been agonizing over it for the past week or two, since it was meant for in-combat positioning not out-of-combat travel. There are some minor tweaks to it in the next patch, but I'm hesitant to nerf it too much since we think ammo consumption will make a really big difference in how it's used. Unfortunately, ammo consumption is still a while out, so it's likely to be another one of those things that people feel is a profound nerf once the balancing mechanics finally come online.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Mages have heavier armor than warriors currently thanks to Mage armor feat. Adding 5 more physical resist on top of your heavy armor is insane right now.You lose keyword upgrades to HP and other stats by doing that.
Those 50 hp are worthless next to the resistances. You're not getting two-shot in heavy armor. Physical resistance is especially good against high multiplier attacks, which is what everyone is using for PVP. Blocking 15 damage from a longbow or almost 25 damage from a greatsword is awesome.
Maybe at T2 those hp will matter but not right now.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Mages have heavier armor than warriors currently thanks to Mage armor feat. Adding 5 more physical resist on top of your heavy armor is insane right now.You lose keyword upgrades to HP and other stats by doing that.Those 50 hp are worthless next to the resistances. You're not getting two-shot in heavy armor. Physical resistance is especially good against high multiplier attacks, which is what everyone is using for PVP. Blocking 15 damage from a longbow or almost 25 damage from a greatsword is awesome.
Maybe at T2 those hp will matter but not right now.
Well its more like 120 HP with +2 heavy.
Still I see that as a meaningful choice rather than an exploit. Tradeoff Hp and other bonuses for a bump to physical resistance.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
You can build a glass cannon wizard.Not really. I mean, you can make the "glass" part, but the "cannon" is noticeably lacking.
There are 4 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the highest Cantrip.
There are 30 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the 2nd highest Cantrip.
There are 8 Physical Attacks that all have a higher Damage Factor than the highest Tier 1 Wizard Spell.
Wizards' evasion/knockback options also seem pretty ineffective. Arctic Winds is nice, but the AoE effects make it difficult to use in a dynamic situation without causing problems for allies. All the other Evade/Knockback effects have a maximum range of 20 meters, which means you can't use them until that guy with a Spear is already close enough to hit you with a Charge.
I'm looking forward to the Dedication Bonus...
Thank you man at least someone agrees.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What would a dedication bonus entail? Is that for matching spells with a given school of magic? What would be nice is some alpha strike type spells with damage equivalent to the high dps divines and two handed melee but a very high cool down say 30 or something. Also need effective crowd control type spells.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The dedication bonus is supposed to be a boost that you get for slotting a feature feat, armor feat, (reactive feats? utility feats?) defensive feats, and weapon feats from a single Role. It's intended to counterbalance the inherent flexibility bonus of a build that draws from multiple roles. It's similar (in spirit, not execution) to the capstone ability you get in tabletop Pathfinder for following a single class to 20th level.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What would a dedication bonus entail? Is that for matching spells with a given school of magic? What would be nice is some alpha strike type spells with damage equivalent to the high dps divines and two handed melee but a very high cool down say 30 or something. Also need effective crowd control type spells.
Tell me more about these "high DPS divines"
I must have missed them when I was looking at the Cleric trainer.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What would a dedication bonus entail? Is that for matching spells with a given school of magic? What would be nice is some alpha strike type spells with damage equivalent to the high dps divines and two handed melee but a very high cool down say 30 or something. Also need effective crowd control type spells.Tell me more about these "high DPS divines"
I must have missed them when I was looking at the Cleric trainer.
Lol, what? They're not at the cleric trainer, they're part of the expendable system. Clerics have the most powerful attacks in the game. I think Harm has something like a x8 multiplier on it.
This is Pathfinder. If you picked Wizard or Cleric, expect to need to use actual spells to do major damage. The cantrips and orisons they give people are simply so we can farm mobs without needing to stop every hour.
But in PVP combat, I bet you will come to FEAR the day when physical armor ignoring clerics spam Firestorms on your army.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What would a dedication bonus entail? Is that for matching spells with a given school of magic? What would be nice is some alpha strike type spells with damage equivalent to the high dps divines and two handed melee but a very high cool down say 30 or something. Also need effective crowd control type spells.Tell me more about these "high DPS divines"
I must have missed them when I was looking at the Cleric trainer.
Lol, what? They're not at the cleric trainer, they're part of the expendable system. Clerics have the most powerful attacks in the game. I think Harm has something like a x8 multiplier on it.
This is Pathfinder. If you picked Wizard or Cleric, expect to need to use actual spells to do major damage. The cantrips and orisons they give people are simply so we can farm mobs without needing to stop every hour.
But in PVP combat, I bet you will come to FEAR the day when physical armor ignoring clerics spam Firestorms on your army.
Harm has a damage factor of 6.53, though that may be out of date. The details keep changing and no doubt will change again when ammo comes in.
But Kyutaru is right: most of the best damage abilities in game are higher end Cleric spells (expendables). Their orison dps may be subpar, but a handful of their expendables are pretty sick damage. Edit: one issue with those spells is matching the keywords. Eg. Harm can only ever have 6 out of a possible 7 keywords match. Will check my calculators to find the maximum possible damage that can be done with a single attack...
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
What would a dedication bonus entail? Is that for matching spells with a given school of magic? What would be nice is some alpha strike type spells with damage equivalent to the high dps divines and two handed melee but a very high cool down say 30 or something. Also need effective crowd control type spells.Tell me more about these "high DPS divines"
I must have missed them when I was looking at the Cleric trainer.
Lol, what? They're not at the cleric trainer, they're part of the expendable system. Clerics have the most powerful attacks in the game. I think Harm has something like a x8 multiplier on it.
This is Pathfinder. If you picked Wizard or Cleric, expect to need to use actual spells to do major damage. The cantrips and orisons they give people are simply so we can farm mobs without needing to stop every hour.
But in PVP combat, I bet you will come to FEAR the day when physical armor ignoring clerics spam Firestorms on your army.
Multipliers for expendables do not work quite the same as for Orisons. Harm does the base 40 damage, plus 7 per matched keyword (up to 6), times the multiplier of 6.53.
You will always match 3 keywords, so your damage range on the hardest hitting expendable in the game is (40+3*7)*6.53=398.33 to (40+6*7)*6.53=535.46. It targets reflex, costs 51 power, takes 2.6 seconds to cast, and can only be used once per combat.
So I am expecting it to knock off about a third of the opponent's hit points, if they do not interrupt it, or move out of melee range.
Edit - right now interrupts in PvP are win, so we will see how this plays out when (if) defensive casting is put in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ Illililili:
Damage factors work exactly the same for expendables as they do for attacks. Keywords work marginally different (7 per match instead of 5, and no majors/minors).
There's also no guarantee of matching 3 keywords. It depends on what Class Feature and level in that Feature you are using.
===============================================
Maximum possible damage with a cleric expendable:
Vengeful Storm: 562 (5.46 damage factor, 9/9 matched with Fire Domain 11)
Harm: 535 (6.53 damage factor, 6/7 matched with Weather Domain 7+)
Symbol of Death: 509 (6.21 damage factor, 6/8 matched with Charm/Fire/Glory/Travel Domain 10+)
This of course assumes 0 resistance on the target and a full hit. Note that with high damage factors damage drops off fast with resistance as D = (1-p)*f*(b-r)
D=damage
p=penalty for not getting full hit
f=damage factor
b=base damage
r=resistance
Trivially:
dD/dr = (1-p)*f*-1 = -f*(1-p)
So as f increases dD/dr gets more negative, ie. the damage drops off faster.
A rule of thumb:
When two attacks do similar damage against 0 resistance, choose the one with a lower damage factor. That is, if they have a different number of matched keywords and damage factors and yet do comparable damage against 0 resistance then the one with fewer matches and higher damage factor will drop off in damage faster than the other as the target's resistance increases. Rogues utilizing sneak attack against low resistance (<10 physical) targets should ignore this rule if comparing pre sneak attack damage.
However, if you have two attacks which target the same defense (fort/ref/will) and the same resistance then (assuming neither has 'precise' or 'penetrating' and both have the same keywords):
The attack more damaging attack against r1 with also be the more damaging against r2.
(Apologies for all the edits!)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
so yeah what they said as you can see wiz is needing some love weather thats semi unsticking them or some substantial dps change via mechanics or new spells that would be greatly appreciated. Also there should be some deterrence to wearing armors though perhaps some schools could wear some types.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
so yeah what they said as you can see wiz is needing some love weather thats semi unsticking them or some substantial dps change via mechanics or new spells that would be greatly appreciated. Also there should be some deterrence to wearing armors though perhaps some schools could wear some types.
OK
- the wizards seem to think wizards are needing some love
- the melee fighters think melee attack suck compared to range attacks from wizards and archers and are needing some love
- the clerics think their attacks suck in damage, range and AoE options compared to melee weapons, wizard spells and archers and are needing some love
- the rogues think they are really hard done by and their role totally sux and are needing some love
- the archers are maybe sorta happy but biatch about the ranged rooting
So in conclusion EVERYONE (except maybe archers) think their chosen role sux compared to everything else.
Seems to me we have an entitlement issue rather than a balance issue :D
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
so yeah what they said as you can see wiz is needing some love weather thats semi unsticking them or some substantial dps change via mechanics or new spells that would be greatly appreciated. Also there should be some deterrence to wearing armors though perhaps some schools could wear some types.OK
- the wizards seem to think wizards are needing some love
- the melee fighters think melee attack suck compared to range attacks from wizards and archers and are needing some love
- the clerics think their attacks suck in damage, range and AoE options compared to melee weapons, wizard spells and archers and are needing some love
- the rogues think they are really hard done by and their role totally sux and are needing some love
- the archers are maybe sorta happy but biatch about the ranged rooting
So in conclusion EVERYONE (except maybe archers) think their chosen role sux compared to everything else.
Seems to me we have an entitlement issue rather than a balance issue :D
Ok so instead of addressing any of the valid points made you have concluded that because other classes are complaining too, my points are not even worth acknowledging let alone logically weighing. Why did you post here? I mean technically you should probably just start your own thread about how you think no complaints are relevant. You could even explain why you have come to that brilliant epiphany. :-D :-D :-D :-D
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
@ Illililili:
Damage factors work exactly the same for expendables as they do for attacks. Keywords work marginally different (7 per match instead of 5, and no majors/minors).
There's also no guarantee of matching 3 keywords. It depends on what Class Feature and level in that Feature you are using.
===============================================
Maximum possible damage with a cleric expendable:
Vengeful Storm: 562 (5.46 damage factor, 9/9 matched with Fire Domain 11)
Harm: 535 (6.53 damage factor, 6/7 matched with Weather Domain 7+)
Symbol of Death: 509 (6.21 damage factor, 6/8 matched with Charm/Fire/Glory/Travel Domain 10+)
This of course assumes 0 resistance on the target and a full hit. Note that with high damage factors damage drops off fast with resistance as D = (1-p)*f*(b-r)
D=damage
p=penalty for not getting full hit
f=damage factor
b=base damage
r=resistanceTrivially:
dD/dr = (1-p)*f*-1 = -f*(1-p)
So as f increases dD/dr gets more negative, ie. the damage drops off faster.
A rule of thumb:
When two attacks do similar damage against 0 resistance, choose the one with a lower damage factor. That is, if they have a different number of matched keywords and damage factors and yet do comparable damage against 0 resistance then the one with fewer matches and higher damage factor will drop off in damage faster than the other as the target's resistance increases. Rogues utilizing sneak attack against low resistance (<10 physical) targets should ignore this rule if comparing pre sneak attack damage.
However, if you have two attacks which target the same defense (fort/ref/will) and the same resistance then (assuming neither has 'precise' or 'penetrating' and both have the same keywords):
The attack more damaging attack against r1 with also be the more damaging against r2.
(Apologies for all the edits!)
How do the fort/ref/will defenses change the final damage? If I have 50/100/150 in the relevant defense, how much less is my damage taken in each of those three cases? Is it the Tier armor base 150 (for T3) plus the defense compared to the attack roll for the expendable?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
The penalty term (p) is the part of the damage equation (see above) which depends on the roll.
p = 0.063*sqrt(X)
where
X = how much you 'missed' by
p = 0 if you didn't 'miss'
There's not really misses, just partial damage.
Roll 3d200 and take the min/middle/max roll for T1/T2/T3. Add your attack bonus. Compare to the target's defense (fort/ref/will) as appropriate for the attack. Take the difference to figure out X.
The higher your defense bonus, the higher p is (on average). So high defenses don't reduce the maximum damage you can take from a given attack (except in the extreme case where your defense is 200 higher than the attacker's attack bonus). Rather defense bonuses simply decrease the average damage you take.
How much a point of defense reduces incoming damage isn't linear, ie. it depends on how your defensive stats stack up against the attacker's attack bonus.
However, as a rough rule of thumb:
*when equally matched the attacker will do on average ~80-85% of their max damage (this varies based on matchup)
*changing your defense score by 5 will change the incoming damage by ~2% of max damage (again this varies based on matchup)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Thanks!
So, if you "miss" by 10, you do 80% damage
if you miss by "20", you do 71% damage
if you miss by "50", you do 55% damage
if you miss by "100", you do 37% damage.
One other question:
Attacks, cantrips, and orisons base to hit roll is from the weapon/staff/focus held. How are the attack rolls determined for expendables if I am holding a weapon or staff but have Cleric expendables slotted? Do they use the equipped item? Or do they use the attack roll for a theoretical item of the appropriate type?