Can't Touch This - Building MC Hammer with a shield

[Alex Mack]

I've stumbled across a combo. It involves Shield Slam, Combat Reflexes, the Growth domain power and adds Swordmasters Flair for chocolate sprinkles.

So the basis of the combo is being large (here via the growth Domain) in order to threaten at a reach of 10 feet, add to this Swordmaster Flair which extends your reach with one handed piercing weapons (say for example a heavy bashing shield) by 5 feet.
If we add to the mix the shield slam feat every opposing move into our 30 foot area provokes an AoO which in turn if succesful triggers a Bull Rush attempt which moves back those stepping into my zone of comfort. As long as this AoO triggers off a move out of the 15 foot zone the offending party will not be able to attack before the Bull rush resolves.
Those valiant enough to break into the zone are then on my turn kept at bay by 5 ft. stepping away and shrinking and regrowing (essentially 10 feet of free movement) or bashed away with a melee attack.

The Feral Hunter Druid Archetype can pull this off starting level 4 and has the added benefit of being a full caster to boot. As the Shield is being wielded in two hands you can also as a free action releases your grip to do some spellcasting.

Bebo McHammer:

Dwarven Nature Fang Druid
STR 16 (10)
DEX 15 (5)
CON 14 (2)
WIS 16 (5)
INT 12
CHA 5 (-4)

Traits:
Glory of Old, Heirloom Weapon (Large Bashing Shield)

Alternate Race Abilities:
Relentless: +2 to CMB for Bull Rush

Class abilities
Studied Target
Growth DomainAdditionally powered up via the Dwarven FCB

Feats
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Improved Shield Bash
4 Slayer Talent Weapon and Shield: Shield Slam
5 Amateur Swashbuckler (Opportune Parry and Riposte) Powers Swordmaster’s Flair
6 SHIELD MASTER
7 Heavy Armor Proficiency
8 Slayer talent Combat Feat: Power attack
9 Improved Bull rush?
10?Slayer Talent?
11 Divine Interference

Notable Equipment
Swordmaster’s Flair (Blue Scarf)
Plume of Panache
+X Stone Plate
+X Belt of STR and DEX
+ X Heavy Spiked Shield of Bashing with additionally enchanted shield spikes
Featherstep slippers

So on the one hand I'd like to ask whether there any flaws in my logic here. In particular does the Bull Rush interrupt movement into adjacent squares?

On the other hand I'd be happy for constructive criticism on the build (Race, feats, traits and equipment). You can prolly pull this whole shabazz off easily with the Bloodrager, however he can't do it until level 6 and isn't a full caster but likely has a higher to hit,damage and more AoO.

[Scott Wilhelm]

What do you mean by Bashing? Do you mean the Bashing Enchantment? I don't think Heirloom Weapon gives you magic weapons. And you mean a Spiked Shield? That works. You should totally get the Bashing Enchantment on your shield when you can afford it. It will raise your damage from 1d6 to 2d6.

You might consider not getting your shield with the Heirloom Weapon Trait. You might prefer to eventually get an adamantine or mithril shield when you can afford one, and while you can transform your father's shield into a masterwork one with a spell, and then enchant it, you can't turn it from steel to adamantine.

The name bothers me. Your name is Bebo McHammer, but you don't wield a hammer! You can fix that by taking the Thunder and Fang Feat. It lets you treat the Earthbreaker hammer as a 1 handed weapon and the Klar shield as a Light Weapon. You can still take Shield Slam and Great Bull Rush with the Klar, and it will also do 2d6 when you Slam with it. Wielding a Huge hammer in 1 hand, I'd be tempted to develop a Trip Build. I'd use a Sickle as a Tripping Weapon. Hammer and Sickle: I'm the Soviet Union!

I'm pretty sure there's no point in taking Improved Bull Rush for this character unless you also take Greater Bull Rush. With Shield Slam, you use your original attack roll as your CMB, and that probably means you don't get your bonuses from IBR or GBR for that matter.

The reason you want Great Bull Rush is for the Attacks of Opportunity. You don't provoke an attack of opportunity for getting Bull Rushed out of a threatened square, but you do for getting Great Bull Rushed out of one. That triggers AoO's for your allies, but not for you. For you to get an AoO from GBR, you need the Paired Opportunist Feat. It's a Teamwork Feat, which means your allies need to take it, too, but not if you get it via 1 level in Cavalier or 3 levels in Inquisitor. They have Class Abilities that get around that.

But combining Reach with Bull Rushing is a solid tactic. And figuring out how to do that with a large, spiked, bashing shield slam is inspired.

[Timdog]

Holy unbalanced feat batman! Its amazing but no way my dm would let that fly - it gives 2 great abilities in one feat.

[Alex Mack]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

What do you mean by Bashing? Do you mean the Bashing Enchantment? I don't think Heirloom Weapon gives you magic weapons. And you mean a Spiked Shield? That works. You should totally get the Bashing Enchantment on your shield when you can afford it. It will raise your damage from 1d6 to 2d6.

You might consider not getting your shield with the Heirloom Weapon Trait. You might prefer to eventually get an adamantine or mithril shield when you can afford one, and while you can transform your father's shield into a masterwork one with a spell, and then enchant it, you can't turn it from steel to adamantine.

I'm pretty sure there's no point in taking Improved Bull Rush for this character unless you also take Greater Bull Rush. With Shield Slam, you use your original attack roll as your CMB, and that probably means you don't get your bonuses from IBR or GBR for that matter.

The reason you want Great Bull Rush is for the Attacks of Opportunity. You don't provoke an attack of opportunity for getting Bull Rushed out of a threatened square, but you do for getting Great Bull Rushed out of one. That triggers AoO's for your allies, but not for you. For you to get an AoO from GBR, you need the Paired Opportunist Feat. It's a Teamwork Feat, which means your allies need to take it, too, but not if you get it via 1 level in Cavalier or 3 levels in Inquisitor. They have Class Abilities that get around that.

But combining Reach with Bull Rushing is a solid tactic. And figuring out how to do that with...

Yeah a bashing shield. Does anyone know whether the bashing shield with enlarge person deals 3d6? That would be sweet.

You have to get masterwork transformation cast on the shield before you can enchant it.I'd really prefer to get the proficiency via a feat but then I'd have to kick something out currently the only thing that I could maybe do without is the amateur Swashbuckler feat. However I kinda need it for the Swordmaster's Flair.

Imp. Bull rush is only in there as I couldn't find a better feat and very much up for discussion. Greater Bull Rush sadly won't work as the text from shield slam would override it. Anyways I'm not concerned about not provoking sufficient AoO.

The name is a reference to the legendary MC Hammer whom you homeboy can't touch...

Timdog wrote:

Holy unbalanced feat batman! Its amazing but no way my dm would let that fly - it gives 2 great abilities in one feat.

You talking about Shield Slam? Or Shield Master? Both are super awesome :). Shield Master arguably is the better feat as every penny spent on Shield enhancements (cheaper than weapons) goes into to hit , damage and AC.

I'm curently sighting the druid spell list for good spells for the build. I figuered generating difficult terrain might be cool.

[Timdog]

Oh no, shield dlam and the like are nicely balanced feats, you have to invest but they get great by the end of the chain. I was talking about what Scott suggested - the ability to wield a 2H in one hand is a good feat. The ability to bash with the shield and keep your AC bonus on your next turn is a good feat. The ability to do both with one feat is insane!

I love bulrush builds, my favorite dwarf was a foehammer (reach hammer) and I would use my first attack bullrushing people away, getting a free trip attempt due to the archetype while also giving my party members AOE, then use my next attacks wailing on them at reach. Had a hulk shirt (enlarge at will) so I could really abuse the mechanics of reach and bulrush when I needed :) Took forever to get fully going, but man it was great when it did.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Alex Mack wrote:

Yeah a bashing shield. Does anyone know whether the bashing shield with enlarge person deals 3d6? That would be sweet.

Yes, they stack. inflicting damage as if you were 1 (or 2) sizes bigger is not the same as actually growing 1 size bigger, so savor that sweetness. And how sweet it is!

Alex Mack wrote:

Greater Bull Rush sadly won't work as the text from shield slam would override it.

Sure it works. Why wouldn't it?

Shield Slam wrote:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check (see Combat).

Greater Bull Rush wrote:

Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).

You totally can get AoO's this way. But

Alex Mack wrote:

Anyways I'm not concerned about not provoking sufficient AoO.

You've already got that handled. That's cool.

Alex Mack wrote:

The name is a reference to the legendary MC Hammer whom you homeboy can't touch...

I want to see the Hammer come down just as much as you do. I'm just saying that if he doesn't actually have a Hammer, it's gonna be a thing.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Timdog wrote:

the ability to wield a 2H in one hand is a good feat. The ability to bash with the shield and keep your AC bonus on your next turn is a good feat. The ability to do both with one feat is insane!

It is cool, and I think it's worth it, but it costs. There are a lot of prerequisites: weapon focus Klar & Earthbreaker and 2 weapon. And while you don't need Improved Shield Bash to use T&F and keep your AC, you need to take it anyway as a prereq. for Shield Slam.

Too bad your DM wouldn't allow it. It's pretty mainstream, PFS legal even. But that's your DM's call.

[Alex Mack]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Sure it works. Why wouldn't it?

Shield Slam wrote:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Added the relvant sentence. Then again it might also be referring to the fact that you do not provoke an AoO when carrying out the maneuver...

[Scott Wilhelm]

Alex Mack wrote:

The name is a reference to the legendary MC Hammer whom you homeboy can't touch...

Honestly, I'm more of a Beatles Fan. My Hammer character will be named Maxwell, and he will use an Alchemal Silver Earthbreaker.

The Beatles wrote:

Bang, Bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer came down on her head!
Bang, Bang Maxwell's Silver Hammer came down. Now she's dead!

His last name will be MacKenzie. He's going to get Paired Opportunist via 3 levels in Inquisitor. When he takes his first Inquisitor level, he will be Father MacKenzie, also a Beatles Song.

The Beatles wrote:

All the lonely people, where do they all come from.
All the lonely people, where do they all belong?

[Scott Wilhelm]

Alex Mack wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Sure it works. Why wouldn't it?

Shield Slam wrote:

Any opponents hit by your shield bash are also hit with a free bull rush attack, substituting your attack roll for the combat maneuver check. This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Added the relvant sentence. Then again it might also be referring to the fact that you do not provoke an AoO when carrying out the maneuver...

I'm sure that's what it means. You normally do provoke an Attack of Opportunity when you attempt a Bull Rush. But when you use Shield Slam, you don't. Your opponent doesn't provoke anyway unless you have Great Bull Rush.

Even if they are saying that Shield Slam doesn't grant you an attack of opportunity, they'd need to say more before they say that it prevents Greater Bull Rush from granting AoOs (AsoO?).

Actually, looking at the Feats again, I think Both IBR and GBR would lend their bonuses to Shield Slam, they don't say that they give +2 bonuses to Combat Maneuver Bonuses to Bull Rush; they say they give +2 bonuses to attempts to Bull Rush, and even when you are doing it with Shield Slam, it's an attempt to Bull Rush.

[Alex Mack]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Actually, looking at the Feats again, I think Both IBR and GBR would lend their bonuses to Shield Slam, they don't say that they give +2 bonuses to Combat Maneuver Bonuses to Bull Rush; they say they give +2 bonuses to attempts to Bull Rush, and even when you are doing it with Shield Slam, it's an attempt to Bull Rush.

They would which is the reason why my Dwarf has the relentless racial ability which grants a +2 to CMB for Bull rushes.

I'm still debating how exactly the bull rush works with my opponents move. To the best of my knowledge Pathfinder uses the Last in First out rule so that would mean the AoO and adjoining Bull Rush resolve before the move action is completed.
However I'm not sure what happens then. Is the opponents move over? Or does he get to continue to move and if so is the movement from the bull rush subtracted from his movement for the round?

[Devilkiller]

I thought Maxwell's last name was Edison...

Anyhow, as far as I know the Bull Rush from Shield Slam uses the result of your attack roll as the number you compare to your opponent's CMD to determine the results of the Bull Rush. In other words, you wouldn't get any bonuses from stuff like Improved Bull Rush though things like Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield) and an enchanted shield would help.

If your opponent still has movement remaining it could use that movement to come towards you again. I'm not 100% sure regarding whether that would count as a new action in terms of triggering an AoO (which is usually limited to one per action). Even if it doesn't you'll probably end up being able to push people away before they get a full attack. You'd also be able to stuff charges and therefore avoid being pounced.

I'm running a PC with Shield Slam in one current campaign, and one of my favorite aspects of the feat so far has been the fact that enemies pushed into a solid obstacle fall prone. This is a great debuff which can create a lot of tactical advantages. I think your Druid might be better positioned to exploit this aspect of the feat than my Viking since you might be able to create walls, trees, etc to bounce foes off of.

If you decide to pursue the knocking folks prone aspect of Shield Slam then the combination of Vicious Stomp + Enforcer would be extremely useful. If you throw on Hurtful too you can really pile a lot of damage onto a prone foe quickly.

[Scott Wilhelm]

Devilkiller wrote:

Anyhow, as far as I know the Bull Rush from Shield Slam uses the result of your attack roll as the number you compare to your opponent's CMD to determine the results of the Bull Rush. In other words, you wouldn't get any bonuses from stuff like Improved Bull Rush though things like Weapon Focus (Heavy Shield) and an enchanted shield would help.

You might be right. I'm just observing that a Shield Slam is an attempt to Bull Rush, and the wording of the Benefits of the Improved and Greater bull rush feats is that they each give +2 bonuses on "attempts to Bull Rush." Clearly you don't roll a 2nd time, but the RAW suggests you get to add that +4. Anyway, it's definitely worth asking your DM. Meanwhile, my build has sufficient reason to take GBR even without the bonuses, so my advice to interested readers is to press on. Although vis a vis the OP, he has already elected to take his build in a different direction, so perhaps the argument is academic.

[Gregory Connolly]

I'm not sure there is a clear answer to what happens after you interrupt an opponents movement. I remember this question coming up in a thread about polearms with regard to Pushing Assault, but we never got an official response and there was no consensus.

[Alex Mack]

Gregory Connolly wrote:

I'm not sure there is a clear answer to what happens after you interrupt an opponents movement. I remember this question coming up in a thread about polearms with regard to Pushing Assault, but we never got an official response and there was no consensus.

Yeah I read up on the issue and it seems like no one really knows how it should work which is kinda too bad...

[Timdog]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Timdog wrote:

the ability to wield a 2H in one hand is a good feat. The ability to bash with the shield and keep your AC bonus on your next turn is a good feat. The ability to do both with one feat is insane!

It is cool, and I think it's worth it, but it costs. There are a lot of prerequisites: weapon focus Klar & Earthbreaker and 2 weapon. And while you don't need Improved Shield Bash to use T&F and keep your AC, you need to take it anyway as a prereq. for Shield Slam.

Too bad your DM wouldn't allow it. It's pretty mainstream, PFS legal even. But that's your DM's call.

Good to know its PFS legal, I'll run that by him. You really don't feel that's too much goodness wrapped into one feat? I look at other feats and this puppy shines lol

[Scott Wilhelm]

I don't think of it as 1 Feat, but rather 4. Thunder and Fang requires 2 Weapon Foci and TWF before you can take it. It's really cool, but is it really cooler than Great Cleave which only takes 3? Whirlwind Attack takes 5. Snake Fang + Combat Reflexes takes 4, 3 if you get it via 2 levels of MOMS Monk. Greater Grapple, Expert Captor, and Potion Glutton cost 3 Feats and a Class Ability, and T&F certainly isn't more broken than that.

I like it a lot, but I don't think it's ridiculous. It would be too much goodness for 1 feat, but I don't think it's too much goodness to get out of a combination of 4 Feats.

[Timdog]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I don't think of it as 1 Feat, but rather 4. Thunder and Fang requires 2 Weapon Foci and TWF before you can take it. It's really cool, but is it really cooler than Great Cleave which only takes 3? Whirlwind Attack takes 5. Snake Fang + Combat Reflexes takes 4, 3 if you get it via 2 levels of MOMS Monk. Greater Grapple, Expert Captor, and Potion Glutton cost 3 Feats and a Class Ability, and T&F certainly isn't more broken than that.

I like it a lot, but I don't think it's ridiculous. It would be too much goodness for 1 feat, but I don't think it's too much goodness to get out of a combination of 4 Feats.

Interesting thought process, thanks for taking the time to chat about it (and Sorry for derailing OP). My only argument is there's no real wasted feats in the pathway - +1 to hit with both isn't a terrible feat tax whereas to shield bash you do have some pretty lame steps to get to where you want to be.

and yeah I'd take this over greater cleave anyday ;)

[Devilkiller]

Thunder & Fang looks like a nice feat package since it doesn't require Improved Shield Bash to get started. You'd need to add ISB before taking Shield Slam though. T&F says you wield the earth breaker as a one-handed weapon, so you won't get two-handed bonuses from Str or Power Attack. The average damage boost in comparison to a warhammer is +1 compared to the +2 you could get by taking Weapon Specialization with the warhammer.

While some aspects of interrupting enemy movement are unclear just the ability to knock charging foes off path seems pretty cool since I think most DMs would agree that is enough to disrupt the charge (which has very specific movement rules)