Klar as a Black Blade

[PolydactylPolymath]

If a Bladebound Magus selects a klar as a Black Blade, can the klar be enchanted separately as a shield? Black Blades ordinarily cannot be further enchanted, but as klars (an shields in general) can be enchanted independently as weapons and as armour, I wondered if there was ever any discussion on the issue.

[Imbicatus]

A klar is not a valid black blade. A klar counts as a light weapon, and black blades must be one-handed.

[Zwordsman]

doesn't a metal klar count as a one handed?

and assuming it would be valid as a black blade.

technically nothing in the blackblade says it can not be enchanted. There was an faq I thin kthat said no. If your gm uses it or not, ask them. (i think it's silly and should just be restricted to no +1/2/3/4/5 stuff and special abilities only, but must remain under 10).

but past that.
the shield half counts as a seperate thing. I believe the faq only specified it can be further enchanted via weapon stuff. So. the shield's defensive side I say there is no problem with it. It's rules specifcally a different set of enchantments and magic with no overlap. so I think it's fine.

in pfs? i wouldn't really intend on it. Just because of table variation issues.

[LazarX]

Zwordsman wrote:

d

technically nothing in the blackblade says it can not be enchanted. There was an faq I thin kthat said no. If your gm uses it or not, ask them. (i think it's silly and should just be restricted to no +1/2/3/4/5 stuff and special abilities only, but must remain under 10).

The problem is that there is nothing says it can be. There are no rules that make a living creature a valid target for enchantment. And that's what the blackblade is a livng creature with it's own growth pattern... not a standard intelligent weapon.

[Imbicatus]

A metal klar counts as a metal light spiked shield. Light shields are light weapons.

[LazarX]

Imbicatus wrote:

A metal klar counts as a metal light spiked shield. Light shields are light weapons.

But they are not one-handed weapons. So only a GM Fiat can make them qualify.

[ohako]

counts as for what? in UE, the weapon part of a klar is listed as a one-handed slashing weapon.

So, pull the blade part off the skull? Go nuts with a blackblade and Slashing Grace. Stick it back on the skull? You're toast.

Do I have that right?

Oh, here's more fun

Ultimate Equipment wrote:

Klar:The traditional form of this tribal weapon is a short metal blade bound to the skull of a large horned lizard, but a skilled smith can craft one entirely out of metal. A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes; a metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.

Please tell me what armor spikes are doing on a shield?

1. A klar is a weapon that is also a shield.
2. The weapon part is a one-handed weapon.
3. The shield part is also a spiked shield (which is itself a light weapon), meaning that you could enchant the blade, the spikes, and the shield separately!

Hmmm, you could even TWF with a single klar, without even needing to bother with Thunder and Fang. How neat is that?

A pity you can't stack bladecound with skirnir. Ah well, you can't have everything...I say mix that Conan chocolate and Elric peanut butter and go to town! I dub thee: Conric!

[Zwordsman]

LazarX wrote:

The problem is that there is nothing says it can be. There are no rules that make a living creature a valid target for enchantment. And that's what the blackblade is a livng creature with it's own growth pattern... not a standard intelligent weapon.

The crux, and the part that people have a hard time with is the fact that it specifically states it still counts a weapon, and not even specifying magic weapon. So it counts as living and as a weapon. And almost everything else in the game has things count as both when that occurs (see half elfs for instance or adding any subtypes via spells).

So if it wasn't for that faq it would innately count as both due to the default of the game rules itself. found the faq also. http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qux
but I don't think that directly relates to this either. Because the Klar counts as two different things a defensie shield and an offensive blade. Which is sepreate. by rules of equipment section.

Which means this has to work one of two ways.
either they are seperate and the blackblade only adds enchantment to the blade portion--and is unrelated to the defensive portion.
or.

the blackblade effects both portions which means it gets free enchantments on the whole thing. Which is pretty rough. but semi supported due to blackblade archetype simply saying "this black blade gains x enhancment bonuses" so if you don't seprate out the item then it means bothBecause there is no specific in blackblade, etc that changes the specific wording in the equipment portion on how shields and the klar work/enchanted/etc.

So of the two things. it makes far more sense to me that the black blade-offensive entity would focus on the offensive portion.
TLDR:
The blackblade counts as living and as a weapon. So by default assumption of the pathfindger game (and how it handles it in nearly any similar double type situation) it counts as both entties for all reasons.
The weapon itself is two different enchantable entities by rule of the equpiment section. Nothing defies this section in the specific of Blackblade or the Klar itself.

[Skylancer4]

The FAQ that states black blades are unable to be enhanced via anything besides the class abilities would keep it from being enhanced from an outside source (feats etc).

How are you trying to enchant it as a shield?

[Imbicatus]

The only way I see this working RAW ignoring the light/one-handed issue of the weapon is if you were to gain the black blade with the Blade Adept Arcanist, and then multiclass to Skirnir Magus, using the Black Klar as your shield. The black blade would over-ride the arcane bond, but you would have access to the Skirnir pool abilities to add shield enchantments.

[Zwordsman]

Because the shield portion isn't techincally the blackblade. by the wording of equipment and how shield+shield spikes work and how blackblade is worded. Technically only the spike (or blade in a klar's situation as it counts the blade as spikes in it's text) is the blackblade.

This is one of those situations where the abilty was made without a corner case in it. Because without specific text the Klar falls under "shield with spikes" rules. A normal shield is both weapon and shield. But once you put spikes on it your unable to normally bash with it, and can only attack with the spikes.

shield spikes excerpt:

"An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right."

They'er two different entities. By Raw anyway. So the shield techincally is breakable as well. Just as you can sunder a shield spikes or a shield but techincally not both at once. (though generally if you were to sunder the shield you wouldn't be able to use the shield spikes by how shield spikes attackes works)
It's something like how Double weapons work. Each portion is techincally a different weapon for all those purposes;despite the fact its one object.

this is very much the case of newer content conflicting with older abilities that were made prior to said content being created.

[claudekennilol]

weapons from ultimate equipment:

One-Handed Melee Weapons
Battleaxe 10 gp 1d6 1d8 ×3 — 6 lbs. S —
Double chicken saber 12 gp 1d4 1d6 19–20/×2 — 3 lbs. S Disarm, monk
Heavy pick 8 gp 1d4 1d6 ×4 — 6 lbs. P —
Heavy shield 7 gp/20 gp 1d3 1d4 ×2 — Special B —

Klar 12 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 6 lbs. S See text
Light flail 8 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 — 5 lbs. B Disarm, trip
Longsword 15 gp 1d6 1d8 19–20/×2 — 4 lbs. S —
Nine-ring broadsword 15 gp 1d6 1d8 ×3 — 4 lbs. S Monk
Rapier 20 gp 1d4 1d6 18–20/×2 — 2 lbs. P —
Scimitar 15 gp 1d4 1d6 18–20/×2 — 4 lbs. S —
Scizore 20 gp 1d8 1d10 ×2 — 3 lbs. P Performance
Sibat 2 gp 1d4 1d6 ×3 10 ft. 2 lbs. P or S Grapple
Spiked heavy shield 57 gp/70 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — Special P —
Sword cane 45 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — 4 lbs. P —
Terbutje 5 gp 1d6 1d8 19–20/×2 — 2 lbs. S Fragile
Trident 15 gp 1d6 1d8 ×2 10 ft. 4 lbs. P Brace
Warhammer 12 gp 1d6 1d8 ×3 — 5 lbs. B —

This is why he's asking. The rules say it's a one-handed slashing weapon which is all the black blade requires (or the other weapons it calls out specifically (aka rapier, etc)).

[Melkiador]

Yeah, I don't see how people are saying the Klar isn't a one-handed weapon, when it is clearly listed as a one handed slashing weapon.

As for if the shield portion of a black blade can be enchanted, that's just up to the individual DM. There are valid arguments for both sides.

[Zwordsman]

Pretty much what Melkaidor said.

[Melkiador]

And if more proof of Klar one handedness is needed check the Thunder and Fang feat.

"Normal: An earth breaker is a two-handed weapon, preventing the use of a klar in one hand without imposing penalties for using the earth breaker one-handed. A klar can be used either as a one-handed weapon or a shield; it does not grant a bonus to AC during rounds in which it is used as a weapon."

[Imbicatus]

The problem is that is is both a one handed weapon and light weapon at the same time. It is a one handed weapon because it is listed in the one-handed weapon chart. It is a light weapon because it is a light shield, and light shields are light weapons.

[Melkiador]

Specific trumps general.

The point is moot anyway. Black blade requires one handed slashing and klar is certainly one handed slashing. If you want to argue that the klar is also light and one handed, then it doesn't matter, because black blade doesn't say "not light".

[Imbicatus]

Melkiador wrote:

If you want to argue that the klar is also light and one handed, then it doesn't matter, because black blade doesn't say "not light".

It says one-handed. Which is by definition "not light".

I really feel the listing as on-handed is an error, but good luck on ever seeing a clarification on it. The klar is yet another weapon in the long line of bad rules weapons like the scorpion whip, the kurasigama, the kyoketsu shoge, the dan bong, the battle poi, and the double walking stick katana.

[Melkiador]

The listing of one-handed is certainly not an error. As I pointed out, the klar is also called out as being a one-handed weapon within the Thunder and Fang feat under "Normal".

So, in two separate places the klar is defined as a one-handed weapon. It takes a feat to use the Klar as a light weapon for purposes of two weapon fighting. The intent and RAW is clear. There is no reason that a klar can't be a black blade.

[Skylancer4]

Zwordsman wrote:

Because the shield portion isn't techincally the blackblade. by the wording of equipment and how shield+shield spikes work and how blackblade is worded. Technically only the spike (or blade in a klar's situation as it counts the blade as spikes in it's text) is the blackblade.

This is one of those situations where the abilty was made without a corner case in it. Because without specific text the Klar falls under "shield with spikes" rules. A normal shield is both weapon and shield. But once you put spikes on it your unable to normally bash with it, and can only attack with the spikes.
** spoiler omitted **
They'er two different entities. By Raw anyway. So the shield techincally is breakable as well. Just as you can sunder a shield spikes or a shield but techincally not both at once. (though generally if you were to sunder the shield you wouldn't be able to use the shield spikes by how shield spikes attackes works)
It's something like how Double weapons work. Each portion is techincally a different weapon for all those purposes;despite the fact its one object.

this is very much the case of newer content conflicting with older abilities that were made prior to said content being created.

You used "technically" quite a bit there and I'm going to suggest you re think it.

"Technically" you dont need a shield spike to shield bash. It just improves/alters the damage when you use the shield in an offensive manner. So "technically" the shield being enchanted as offense or defense is the same item unless otherwise stated. The klar has no statement indicating the item is two distinct entities. It states it can be used in multiple ways. That is what we actually have, RAW.

The klar doesn't have a "shield part" or "weapon part", if it did it would be stated it did. And would probably be written up like a double weapon. The klar is a klar, and can just be used multiple ways. Like an unmodified shield, but mainly intended to be an offensive item where as a shield was mainly intended to be a defensive item. As such, a klar black blade would be unable to be given an shield enhancement via feats unless specifically ruled it was allowed in an ability/item write up due to the FAQ. At this point (barring another FAQ) RAW makes no distinction between weapon enhancement or armor/shield enhancements being added, it is simply improved via magus class abilities, spells, or other temporary improvements.

Essentially if you want to improve the defensive aspect of a black blade klar, you need to find a way to get the magus class to do it (which probably would be impossible as they would likely alter the same abilities as archetypes) or use temporary enhancements like magic weapon/vestments or the like to get what you were after.

[Zwordsman]

Skylancer4 wrote:

You used "technically" quite a bit there and I'm going to suggest you re think it.

"Technically" you dont need a shield spike to shield bash. It just improves/alters the damage when you use the shield in an offensive manner. So "technically" the shield being enchanted as offense or defense is the same item unless otherwise stated. The klar has no statement indicating the item is two distinct entities. It states it can be used in multiple ways. That is what we actually have, RAW.

In fact for enchanting shields count as two sepreate magical enchantable items. Defensive and offensive. Just like a double weapon and other examples in the game. The rules for that are listed in the equipment and magic and shield sections of the game. The game itself states that those two facets of the shield are different items for enchantment and magic. So the klar does not need the statements within its own text because it is thoroughly stated elsewhere.

This is why I used techincally in the above. Because it gets into the techincal interactions of the game and specific rules of various effects within the items. Hence. the use of the word, otherwise I would be using "specific text of X item" consistantly.
===========
Shield Spikes:
These spikes turn a shield into a martial piercing weapon and increase the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you (see “spiked shields” on Table: Weapons). You can't put spikes on a buckler or a tower shield. Otherwise, attacking with a spiked shield is like making a shield bash attack.

An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
========
Klar:
Benefit: A traditional klar counts as a light wooden shield with armor spikes. A metal klar counts as a light steel shield with armor spikes.
==========
The Klar's spikes however are slashing as evidenced by the different damage listed out in the equipment stat; whereas normal spiked shields list the improved damage as piercing.
thus when you use a Klar's blade is not a single entity for enchantment, weapon and other further enhancments. In theory you could enchant as a shield, enchant as an offensive shield, and then enchant as the shield spike.
If you had a shield with +1 def +1 as a weapon then put shield spikes on it, the attacks with those shield spikes would not recieve that +1. However you could still bash using the shield and not the spikes and recieve the +1.

It is techincally a different attack and seperate item for nearly every case in the pathfinder system. Exlcuding some specific abilities and feats with specific wording for their own cases.
In that regard it is extremely similar to the case of Double weapons. One item but for almost every "item improvment" rule in the game of pathfinder they count as sepreate entities. There is nothing in Blackblade Magus archetype that suggests it goes agianst that specific and general rulings of the items and shield mechanics. As the blackblade specifies one handed slashing weapon-which in the case of a klar is specifically the slashing damage "shield spikes" and not the shield.

That was what I was driving at. That for most purposes the game treats the weapon end of items as completely seperate magical items. In theory, as the klar doesn't state otherwise, you could make the blade out of one kind of metal and make the shield part out of another-using the costs listed for the weapon and then using the cost of the approriate shield for what metal you are using.

At least that is very much how I read it, if you have a different reading please explain it :D
for fear of how things go nuts online. none of that was snarky. I have a specific way of speaking due to work and studies.

[Skylancer4]

In game "counts as" isn't the same as "identically the same" each of the references also has the function of pointing to different damage ranges and material for purposes of use. Mechanically, a shield spike is different than a klar. Even though a klar counts as a shield with a shield spike in terms of the damage done and material it is made from.

The reason this difference matters is the FAQ states the black blade cannot be enhanced. The klar isn't a shield with a shield spike, it doesn't have distinct parts though it is like one. The klar doesn't have a shield spike to be enhanced separately strictly speaking. It is "all in one" so to speak.

Now a normal one, sure enhance the klar separately. Add things that can be added to shields or shield spikes. It counts as both so can take both types of enhancements unless there are outliers.

But that wasn't the question from the OP. The question was whether the Black blade could be enhanced like that. RAW and the FAQ state it cannot.

[Kchaka]

The Klar is a spiked light shield (shield bash:1d4 x2 P,light weapon) with a blade attached to it ("Klar" blade:1d6 x2 S,one-handed weapon). The blade is a "separate" weapon, it may or may not be masterwork (depending if you paid for it) and it can have it's own enchants. The Klar's blade can be a Black Blade. The shield can be enchanted separatly as a regular spiked light shield.

[Imbicatus]

Kchaka wrote:

The Klar is a spiked light shield (shield bash:1d4 x2 P,light weapon) with a blade attached to it ("Klar" blade:1d6 x2 S,one-handed weapon). The blade is a "separate" weapon, it may or may not be masterwork (depending if you paid for it) and it can have it's own enchants. The Klar's blade can be a Black Blade. The shield can be enchanted separatly as a regular spiked light shield.

So if the blade is a black blade and the shield is separate and not the black blade, what happens if the shield is sundered while the magus has arcane pool points? The black blade is immune to being broken, but the shield isn't. But as a double weapon, if the shield is broken, the blade is broken.

[Skylancer4]

Kchaka wrote:

The Klar is a spiked light shield (shield bash:1d4 x2 P,light weapon) with a blade attached to it ("Klar" blade:1d6 x2 S,one-handed weapon). The blade is a "separate" weapon, it may or may not be masterwork (depending if you paid for it) and it can have it's own enchants. The Klar's blade can be a Black Blade. The shield can be enchanted separatly as a regular spiked light shield.

Link to relevant ruling or are you just stating your opinion on the subject?

[Zwordsman]

Imbicatus wrote:

So if the blade is a black blade and the shield is separate and not the black blade, what happens if the shield is sundered while the magus has arcane pool points? The black blade is immune to being broken, but the shield isn't. But as a double weapon, if the shield is broken, the blade is broken.

The shield is broken the blade is not broken. When shields are broken this happens

======
If the item is a suit of armor or a shield, the bonus it grants to AC is halved, rounding down. Broken armor doubles its armor check penalty on skills.
=======
so the blade portion is not broken by the act, only defensive qualities aer broken
You could destroy it as well, at which point your in gm territory again (like most non standard weapons) because the blade is not broken but the shield portion is.Additionally it's up to the gm on how said item is destroyed. But.
as the klar description is so limited we don't know if the blade latches onto your arm via it's own straps or just via the shield portion. In such a situation I would just have the klar weapon still work while hte shield's defense in totallity was destroyed..
Since I view the klar as similar to what i've seen in person. The blade is stuck through the mouth of the "shield" portion, and both are threaded through the straps and strapped to you. The few I've seen you could remove the shield portion (or if it shattered I suppose) and the blade would be still strapped on, maybe just not as securely.
So i'm biased due to seeing in person

[Skylancer4]

Unfortunately real life and the game mechanics are hardly ever as neatly parallel as we would like, for numerous reasons. Real life doesn't have any bearing on RAW rulings and we cannot base answers on it.

[Scott Wilhelm]

So, what about Arcane Spell Failure and Shields?

[Scott Wilhelm]

If you want your Black Blade to give you an AC bonus, and you find the 5% Arcane Spell Failure imposed by the Klar to be unacceptable until you can afford to replace it with a Mithral Klar, consider making your Black Blade a Scizore.

A Scizore is a 1 handed Martial Slashing Weapon that does 1d10 and gives a +1 Shield Bonus to AC. It can't be enchanted as a shield, though, because it isn't one, and you do take a -1 to your attack rolls with it. but compare it with a long sword: -1 attack, +1 damage, +1AC. Seems like a fair trade to me.