So, they have the announcement that the Marvel Universe as we know it ends in May. In it, the Ultimate universe and 616 universe (and perhaps, hinted at least, other universes) will all collide and combine.
Despite all 70,000 (or less) hardcore Marvel fans that still buy Marvel comics who probably hate this news (or maybe not), I actually think this COULD stand a chance to get me reading their comics again.
Point blank, I haven't picked up a Spiderman comic since they did the ridiculous thing with Peter and MJ and wrote out their marriage and everything else between them. That pretty much killed the spiderman comics and though I've read summaries of the storylines, nothing they've done has made me want to EVER read their spiderman again...at least thus far.
On the otherhand, their ultimate version with Miles Morales is actually not bad.
With the poster they put up recently, with Peter happy with MJ and a daughter...I'd be happy if they used this as a way to get Peter and MJ's marriage (AKA, actually existing and actually having a relationship of some sort) back on track and if they even included a kid (now THAT's actually progress on the character of Peter, not this backtracking stuff they've been trying to do) I might actually read this.
However, if they can only have one Spiderman, I'd prefer that they get Peter Parker and MJ's marriage back and maybe even the daughter and have them go off in the sunset happily ever after and then continue with Miles Morales as the new Spiderman (hence a conclusion, happy one at that for Peter Parker, and a new Spiderman for a new Generation).
As for X-Men, I haven't really liked what they've done with them over the past few years. It's been so confusing with many of the changes and storylines, that it's basically become one huge cluster screwup. For starters, either get rid of Cyclops permanently, OR...get bring an adult Jean Grey and balance out that equation.
Also, get down the number of X-men to a reasonable number that we all can keep track of, like a maximum of 8 (so two teams of 4) and KEEP it at that for the next DECADE or more. It doesn't even have to be the main characters now or past, shake it up, but make it with characters that are memorable and actually likeable.
AS for Avengers, I haven't kept up with the comics to tell the truth, but I have heard that some people get confused when they watch the movies and then try to read the comics and the characters aren't the same.
I don't know exactly on that, but perhaps stick with more of the ultimate line up (it's more like the movies anyways) and get rid of the rest?
Just my initial thoughts on this. who knows, if they do it right, they might actually win me back as a reader for marvel comics...of course if they screw it up (like they have been over the past 10 years, the only thing I even reasonably liked was X-force with wolverine), well, they haven't lost anything as I still won't be a customer.
Mmmm...
Will need thoughts from the dragon on this one.
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Here is a thought. Why not let these heroes age?
Spiderman was introduced in 1962... 53 years ago. The amazing spiderman should be in his early 70s. We should be reading about his amazing grand children. This way the stories stay fresh without constantly having to alter the universe.
I think there was a convoluted reason as to why this didn't happen...can't quite recall it.
I'll be using this event as a reason to stop buying Marvel comics.
I used the New 52 as a reason to stop buying DC, as I enjoyed the pre-Flashpoint characterizations and the reboot didn't appeal to me. The rehashed "Secret Wars" and its various reconstructions will yield the same result.
Besides, I'm running out of physical space to store comics. I'm happy with the collection that I have and, along with trades, I can go back and reread the works that I enjoy so much.
I have no interest with reworking of loveable characters and new universe with supposedly new ideas that they come up with, and most likely being disappointed. I saw various examples of that over the last 10-15 years, and I have had my fill.
I hope that they do well for their own sake, but I think I will not be alone in my departure.
Here is a thought. Why not let these heroes age?
Spiderman was introduced in 1962... 53 years ago. The amazing spiderman should be in his early 70s. We should be reading about his amazing grand children. This way the stories stay fresh without constantly having to alter the universe.Because writing out popular characters due to old age isn't good business. You wouldn't get really cool new generations of characters, you'd get new universe reboots whenever characters started getting to old to fill their roles.
Well, except for Thor. He'd still be around. :)
But you don't have to write them out... they can just pass the title on to a new generation. Heck you could even have specials where the old timers come out of retirement now and then for some epic event.
That was another thing that wore on me over the last 10-15 years. It seems like EVERYTHING is an epic event, or at least relates to it.
I used to enjoy one issue stories that just involved the heroes fighting low level crime, or some good character development, but it seems that happens a lot less frequently.
I'll be using this event as a reason to stop buying Marvel comics.
I used the New 52 as a reason to stop buying DC, as I enjoyed the pre-Flashpoint characterizations and the reboot didn't appeal to me. The rehashed "Secret Wars" and its various reconstructions will yield the same result.
Besides, I'm running out of physical space to store comics. I'm happy with the collection that I have and, along with trades, I can go back and reread the works that I enjoy so much.
I have no interest with reworking of loveable characters and new universe with supposedly new ideas that they come up with, and most likely being disappointed. I saw various examples of that over the last 10-15 years, and I have had my fill.
I hope that they do well for their own sake, but I think I will not be alone in my departure.
On the other hand, as someone who doesn't read comics but loves the superhero genre this might actually get me to look into them. I would never jump into a story half way through, so, as someone with mostly a passing familiarity in the characters, I will never pick up a comic in their main line. This will provide a distinct entry point for new readers to join in, and if the stories are good they will likely keep their old readers. From what I hear, the problem with the new 52 was that the stories were overall terrible.
Here is a thought. Why not let these heroes age?
Spiderman was introduced in 1962... 53 years ago. The amazing spiderman should be in his early 70s. We should be reading about his amazing grand children. This way the stories stay fresh without constantly having to alter the universe.
You can easily run into pacing issues doing this. Just look at the Dresden Files now. He has 1 book come out a year and progresses the world 1 year between, but now that the story has ramped up he has to find reasons for certain plot points to not advance during that time. You could have the opposite effect as well, where a years worth of comics takes place in the span of a day. Sure, when that event is over you can have a nice breather where the characters don't have much going on for some time, but then you once again run into the first problem.
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On the other hand, as someone who doesn't read comics but loves the superhero genre this might actually get me to look into them. I would never jump into a story half way through, so, as someone with mostly a passing familiarity in the characters, I will never pick up a comic in their main line. This will provide a distinct entry point for new readers to join in, and if the stories are good they will likely keep their old readers. From what I hear, the problem with the new 52 was that the stories were overall terrible.I'll be using this event as a reason to stop buying Marvel comics.
I used the New 52 as a reason to stop buying DC, as I enjoyed the pre-Flashpoint characterizations and the reboot didn't appeal to me. The rehashed "Secret Wars" and its various reconstructions will yield the same result.
Besides, I'm running out of physical space to store comics. I'm happy with the collection that I have and, along with trades, I can go back and reread the works that I enjoy so much.
I have no interest with reworking of loveable characters and new universe with supposedly new ideas that they come up with, and most likely being disappointed. I saw various examples of that over the last 10-15 years, and I have had my fill.
I hope that they do well for their own sake, but I think I will not be alone in my departure.
That was part of it. Another was they took the core characters away from what was their core...aka...Some of the superheroes were those characters in name only.
Some of the ones that did better (Aquaman actually started selling for once) had characters that held the core of what they were, even if there were some differences/new ideas.
The problem that happened with a few of the New 52 is what is the problem that Marvel has been doing over the past decade. They changed the core dynamics of their character/comic and hence isolated readers.
For example, with Spiderman, they decided to undo 30 years of comics, and make it so Peter and MJ never even had a relationship that anyone could recall....something that's just about core to the Spiderman character and development over the...well...the life of Spiderman.
They've done the same to many of their comics just so they could have a "BIG" event each year. They've had so many "BIG" events at this point, that it's no longer a big event when they have one, but business as usual. They've changed and twisted their universe so that readers like me simply gave up reading (and I collected for MANY years, up until the mid-2000s...and even then picked up an issue or two up until around 4-5 years ago).
At this point, the Marvel universe is a mess for those who don't want to keep up/do a ton of research into it. Furthermore, most of the characters aren't ones you can even connect to...
I agree that something definitely needs to be done, at least to get back old readers like me. It's like they forgot what Marvel was in the jump to try to get big events and twists and turns.
I don't know if they'll repair the universe with this (to tell the truth, Ultimates was exceptional for a while when they first came out, and some of them are still better written then the main marvel universe) or not, but they've finally gotten my attention. It may be what convinces me to come back and subscribe again...depending on how well written and interesting it is.
The key there is "if the stories are good". I've spoken with a number of people at my local shop, and granted while this is anecdotal, quite a number of them are disappointed with many of changes made to the comics that they love. Some of held on hoping for a turn towards a more favorable change, but many others are dropping titles like a hot rock.
In the end, sales will tell whether this was good idea to anyone outside the Marvel Bullpen (and Disney management).
At this point, the Marvel universe is a mess for those who don't want to keep up/do a ton of research into it. Furthermore, most of the characters aren't ones you can even connect to...
And think of that from the perspective of someone who is just picking up a comic for the first time, or hasn't read since the 90s. They have a familiarity with some aspects of characters through other media, but in other parts they are completely wrong. If it is frustrating enough for consistent readers to drop subscriptions, many new readers will never get into it in the first place. You need to keep barriers for entry low.
Sturgeon's Law applies.
And will apply whether or not they did a reboot.
I can't argue that.
The key there is "if the stories are good". I've spoken with a number of people at my local shop, and granted while this is anecdotal, quite a number of them are disappointed with many of changes made to the comics that they love. Some of held on hoping for a turn towards a more favorable change, but many others are dropping titles like a hot rock.
In the end, sales will tell whether this was good idea to anyone outside the Marvel Bullpen (and Disney management).
Oh, there is definitely a reason I put that qualifier in there.
I think one of the things you may want to consider though: are the stories worse or are you just no longer invested in them? In some cases, I'm guessing the stories that got dropped were no longer as good, but the fans kept them alive hoping they would be what they once were. When they got introduced to new characters with a reboot, they no longer had the attachment to the old stories that would keep them reading.
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I think one of the things you may want to consider though: are the stories worse or are you just no longer invested in them? In some cases, I'm guessing the stories that got dropped were no longer as good, but the fans kept them alive hoping they would be what they once were. When they got introduced to new characters with a reboot, they no longer had the attachment to the old stories that would keep them reading.
The stories aren't good because they are changing the behavior and personalities of the characters that aren't growth, so much as contradictions, or drastic changes in personality. Or as Jeff mentioned, they are drastically retconning continuity.
Continuity has value to me, some things I can let go of in this regard, some things I can't. Contradictions damage storytelling. Its like suddenly discovering your family isn't your family, and you were raised by other people who are total strangers to you. Its horribly confusing. You don't know what motivates these people and you know nothing about who or what they are.
New characters can be introduced within developed continuity within disrupting the entire universe. Its been done for decades.
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I don't know if that is accurate. In my experience, the majority of comics buyers aren't teenagers. They generally seem to be college age and older. Comics are generally $3.99 and up. Its easy to run up to high cost if you are buying more than just a couple. Maybe I'm speaking out of ignorance, but I generally didn't have a lot of money as a teenager.
I will be giving them money for a happily married Peter complete with daughter. I might look at the other stuff too. By and large I've avoided Marvel with only a couple of recent exceptions since the whole One-more-Day garbage. Would love to see that gone.
DC did a lot of mistakes when they did their new 52. Half-assing it was the biggest one. Either reboot the whole line or don't you can't do both.
The second was deciding to just jump into the middle of things. "The entire history you know has changed but we aren't going to get into all that. Instead we'll do one or two books set in the past for a bit, and everything else is now. Oh and we are going to make constant referances to past events you never read about just to pretend that we have a history behind our books."
For me the best books from the 52 were either on the very edges of the DCU like Animal Man or Swamp Thing or the ones that really did start from ground zero like Action and Earth2.
OMAC was fun too. Felt a lot like classic Hulk stories that one did
Starting from zero I'm generally fine with. Yes I loose what came before but I get to see things build from the begining. I like that, I enjoy being invested in seeing how the character grows and changes. I like watching them grow
It's "Poof, things are different now" that I hate. One-More-Day was a Poof
and from what I understand Marvel isn't exactly rebooting. They are smashing a whole bunch of ideas together, letting them fight it out and then building a new world out of what is left standing, then going forward from there. It is very possible we end up with Married Peter Spider-man, teen Miles Spider-man, Spider-Gwen and even Mayday Spider-Girl all suriving the War and getting their own books in the Newly reborn Marvel Universe.
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Can't really say as to weather this is a smart move or not, but I jumped ship from the classic universe after One More Day, and Ultimate after Ultimatum. Viewing this the same as I did the New 52: we'll see if it sticks.
Personally, I doubt I'll get back into comics. It's a lot of money to shell out for what inevitibly just leads to anger and heartbreak for me. I'll just be sticking to the cinematic universe for now.
I suppose that's the thing about comic book (or really, ANY) fandom I suppose; you can't please everyone. And when you have over 50 years of continuity that hundreds of people have added to, you'll have a hard time pleasing anyone.
Again, as Aranna says, age is a good concept that would keep things fresh.
The massive retcons confuse things, but that doesn't keep them from telling good stories. It just doesn't fix the "Oh my god it's all so confusing for new readers!" problem.
For all the history and continuity, in order to enjoy mainstream comics, you've really got to live in the now. Is this storyline that I'm reading right now a good storyline? Are the characters engaging? Is the plot sufficiently mysterious or exciting? Some level of the Are the characters basically in character - hitting the right iconic notes at least? Do I want to know what happens next?
Even if it's going to be retconned away at some point. Or if it doesn't really fit with some other story from years ago. Is this story a good read?
The rest of it doesn't really matter. The story itself should include all the background information you need to understand it, though there might be easter eggs for those with deep knowledge.
And this is one of the reasons I have never gotten into reading comics. I can't pretend that the continuity doesn't matter to me.
Arrana also thinks blogger doom is a good idea so I don't want to onow that version of "fresh".
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Here is a thought. Why not let these heroes age?
Because writing out popular characters due to old age isn't good business. You wouldn't get really cool new generations of characters, you'd get new universe reboots whenever characters started getting to old to fill their roles.
But you don't have to write them out... they can just pass the title on to a new generation.
This is one of the reasons the Judge Dredd series has been able to run, with no reboots, for over 37 years. And do so, while maintaining a timeline that keeps pace with our date (plus 122 years).
Is the title character old as dirt? Yes.
But since he's a genetically engineered clone, he can still do the job in his 70s (though references have been made, for over 25 years, to him losing his edge), and the presence of his younger clone-siblings as supporting cast means they can take some of the load, plus it gives the writers a way to experiment with seeing the character at different ages, and with slightly different personality, without needing to reset the clock from Year One.
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I don't know if that is accurate. In my experience, the majority of comics buyers aren't teenagers. They generally seem to be college age and older. Comics are generally $3.99 and up. Its easy to run up to high cost if you are buying more than just a couple. Maybe I'm speaking out of ignorance, but I generally didn't have a lot of money as a teenager.
That's because most comic purchasers are people who got into a few comics in high school, grew up, and then got real jobs that can support the habbit. What you need to think about is not existing sales, but growth. I would put money on the vast majority of new comic readers starting before the end of college, with most of those starting before college.
Edit: Its like cigarettes, you need to hook them while they are young.
Well, they have had several Flash's and Green Lanterns and their time span of popularity seems around 10-15 years.
Aging character out doesn't seem to big of a problem to tell the truth...though maybe do it as a every 2-3 years = 1 year of comicbook time.
That way, with Spiderman from the 60's, he'd be around in his 30s now, which actually isn't that much off the mark (he's no longer in highschool, was married, even graduated from college I believe and had a real job!). Of course, that's before they tried to make it so that a aged PP could act like a high school student (riiiiight) with the OMD crud.
It would make more sense for him to retire and live happily ever after with MJ than some of the stuff they've pulled recently in Spiderman (though granted, for a while it was Doc Ock instead of Peter Parker's consciousness).
I don't have a problem with the idea of growing old and handing off to a new generation.
Until the New 52 reboot, we had Batman having aged gracefully, Dick Grayson going from Robin to Nightwing and finally becoming Batman himself. Bruce Wayne becoming a huge head of a Batman inc. group where other batmans would be organized in other cities...
Of course, that sort of just...disappeared with the New 52 reboot and Bruce Wayne was just being batman again.
But it's an example of the gaing and handing off the cloak....up until the New 52 and I think shows it could work with aging characters handing the cloak off to new characters.
But thejeff they basically DO replace all their heroes with ones that people don't recognize every time they do a reboot. At least by aging them those iconic stories remain forever canon. Newer readers can just open a digital copy of the old stuff to catch up on the epic events of the past that the grognards are talking about. While at the same time newer readers can enjoy a new hero from their start, even if they have an old name.
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Not compared to Batman is now a kid in a high tech batsuit, mentored by an aged Bruce Wayne. (That one's real - Batman Beyond. Not bad at times, but not actually Batman)
Batman Beyond was awesome! :O
Terry McGinnis is just as much Batman as Dick Greyson! :)
But not as much as Bruce Wayne.Not compared to Batman is now a kid in a high tech batsuit, mentored by an aged Bruce Wayne. (That one's real - Batman Beyond. Not bad at times, but not actually Batman)Batman Beyond was awesome! :O
Terry McGinnis is just as much Batman as Dick Greyson! :)
But not as much as Bruce Wayne.Not compared to Batman is now a kid in a high tech batsuit, mentored by an aged Bruce Wayne. (That one's real - Batman Beyond. Not bad at times, but not actually Batman)Batman Beyond was awesome! :O
Terry McGinnis is just as much Batman as Dick Greyson! :)
True... Because one of the things that make Batman cool is his personality, which is very different from Dick's and Terry's (and that's great, we don't need a bunch of characters who act and behave the same).
And Damian is the best Robin ever!
I loved the Bruce/Damian dynamics... With Bruce being a parent for the first time (he was father figure for the other Robins as well, but those we older at time of recruitment, had parents of their own and were not removed from normal society for most of their lives).
It was great to see the affection and mutual respect between father and son growing slowly but steadily...
And Damian's personality is far more interesting IMO. Dick is okay, Jason was annoying (still is) and Tim is pretty cool... But Damian's personality and character growth were more unique and far more interesting, IMO.
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Before the new 52 one of my favorite books was Justice Society. I was a big fan ofthe legacy concept. We had these older heroes from ww2 teaching the next generation. I felt that having these guys grow old and handing down their mantles to the younger generation gave the DCU a strong sense of history. I was sad to see that go when they rebooted for the 52