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Basically, the entire village was massacred and then raised by the lone survivor(He became a White Necromancer), and the PCs will come across this village, potentially recruiting the Necromancer.
I need ideas on how to improve the feel of the village for the PCs, I want the undead to all be intelligent, maintaining their personalities despite having bits of themselves falling off.
I want them to have maintained the village at the condition in which they were killed.(non-ruined and completely functional)
Anywho, anyone have ideas that can make this work a little better?
juju zombies?
I love the idea, but I'm not entirely sure what it is you want made better.
Just any ideas that could improve or add detail to the concept.
Juju zombies are about the only undead that by cannon are not evil.
If you don't mind evil undead, then ghouls struggling with their hunger can give a very creepy feeling. "You don't seem to be using your brain. May I have it?"
You can have nonevil ghosts as well.
Hadn't realized that.
Could be amusing, a ghost trying to rebuild sections of their house and having their TK stop in the middle of a task. Best to try and calm them and help them, if they get too frustrated unpleasant things are likely to occur.
Juju zombies are about the only undead that by cannon are not evil.
If you don't mind evil undead, then ghouls struggling with their hunger can give a very creepy feeling. "You don't seem to be using your brain. May I have it?"
The individual who raised them was a child who everyone in the village raised (irony?) because he was abandoned.
Because any undead raised by a White Necromancer take that person's alignment (Lawful Good in this case), they shouldn't have any problem with that.
He did indeed raise them out of desperation, it was indeed a little crazy to do, but he was a scared and lonely child.
The necromancer should have Gentle Repose to make things less unpleasant for the townsfolk.
Noted, that will be amongst the spells in the Necro's list.
I agree that a community of ghosts, especially those that do not realize they are dead is the best way for this to work. While not official Paizo, Rite Publishing's Kaidan setting of Japanese horror (PFRPG) include several ghosts that are corporeal for a good amount of time, or have temporary corporeal abilities.
Among the best ghost/haunt products for the Kaidan setting are:
#30 Haunts for Kaidan by T. H. Gulliver
I may have done with unwittingly, but now that it comes to mind, it fits very well.
The Necromancer (Grave-Bound White Necromancer, technically), is very comparable to Ed from the Fullmetal Alchemist anime.
Though instead of a mother dying of illness, its an entire village being massacred, and he uses necromancy instead of alchemy. (obviously)
Motivation would be to eventually find a way to bring them back to life, through resurrection, instead of permanently leaving them as undead.
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I ran a variation on this in the jungles with a sole survivor of a massacre, and yeah, I did make the Necromancer an Oracle and the villagers Juju Zombies.
However, I didn't want the Necromancer to be "good" so much as "not necessarily evil." I ran it that the zombies had the skill sets from their previous lives, but not the same souls/personalities/etc. They were intelligent and could live in a community just a they always had, but they were not actually themselves. So, for example, the necromancer's wife was not really his wife's soul/personality/whatever, just her body animated and given an intellect. So, he the necromancer had to sort of teach the zombies how to act like the previous people. The closer to the necromancer in life, the more accurate the portrayal.
Oh, and I ruled that the bodies were totally preserved, so the PCs couldn't tell immediately that the people weren't alive.
It was really unsettling for the PCs, because the people not especially close to the necromancer clearly just ran on scripts and had two dimensional personalities, and the necromancer, who presented himself as the village chieftain, kept trying to keep the PCs away from the "extras."
Ultimately, they thought the necromancer just had everyone entranced or dominated or something, and that he was an abusive because they only ever saw the leader eat, and everyone in the village revered him, even as they delivered obviously scripted lines insulting him. They fought him, and only discovered that the people were undead when they couldn't knock out the villagers with nonlethal. Then, they fled and tried to solve the mystery of what happened. When they had, they decided to let the necromancer be with his village and go avenge their slaughter.
It was pretty messed up, but ended up one of my favorite sessions, despite intending it just as some brief sidetrack.
Mindless undead are typically raised from the dead for an evil purpose. Undead that have their own intellect typically achieve the state of undeath by and for evil means. It's not all too often that you have undead with their own intellect that didn't choose to be undead by and for evil means. Those that are typically arrive in such a state by either overwhelming despair or unfinished business.
Having said that, there are non-evil undead, they're just not all that common (aside from unique undead ghosts). Among the non-evil undead, you have deathwebs, ectoplasmic humans, mummified crocodiles, mummified elephants, and trench zombies.
I like your version, especially the "this is your personality" bits. It seems quite amusing to have a necromancer trying to convince an intelligent yet empty(?) undead what they acted like, but I wouldn't be able to do that if the Necromancer was a child who just wanted his family back.
He also holds no special place in the town, aside from being the guy who raises and preserves the undead, and has to eat.
I'm planning on having the PCs meet one of the undead first, as he's out on an errand, or just passing the time wandering in the forest.
I think it'll be cute to have them charge him, thinking he's just a random zombie, and it turns out he really just does not appreciate having swords thrusted into him, and politely asks them to stop.
Mindless undead are typically raised from the dead for an evil purpose. Undead that have their own intellect typically achieve the state of undeath by and for evil means. It's not all too often that you have undead with their own intellect that didn't choose to be undead by and for evil means. Those that are typically arrive in such a state by either overwhelming despair or unfinished business.
Having said that, there are non-evil undead, they're just not all that common (aside from unique undead ghosts). Among the non-evil undead, you have deathwebs, ectoplasmic humans, mummified crocodiles, mummified elephants, and trench zombies.
White Necromancers apply their alignment to their raised undead.
(Always some sort of Good)
It takes channeling of Negative Energy to animate anything dead. Channeling Negative Energy is ALWAYS an Evil act, no matter what the reason/purpose is. I don't understand the reasoning behind trying to shoehorn Good into it.
If you are a good person you would be doing it with Positive Energy and Healing spells. If you can have the power to do it one way you can have the power to do it the other. I don't understand the concept of a White Necromancer. Why would anyone Good wish that kind of purgatory on anyone, for any reason?
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/kobold-press-open-design/ white-necromancer
That should have your answers, specifically this bit.
"Beginning at 4th level, any necromancy spell that creates undead loses the evil descriptor when cast by a white necromancer."
It also is not necessarily about only creating undead, but requesting that the dead help you in your quest, whatever that may be.
The white necro even gets true resurrection at 18th level, so one may simply use the undead state as a way to have an ally be useful before truly returning them to life at a later time.
Being that the average person is neutral, having a village of all lawful good, may be stranger than having a village of all undead. I'd expect a Stepford Wives vibe that'd creep most people out. At best, you are looking at a village of The Munsters.
An undead village may begin to neglect the things that only benefit the living. Things like water, food, fire and light will become more and more scarce.
Being that the average person is neutral, having a village of all lawful good, may be stranger than having a village of all undead. I'd expect a Stepford Wives vibe that'd creep most people out. At best, you are looking at a village of The Munsters.
An undead village may begin to neglect the things that only benefit the living. Things like water, food, fire and light will become more and more scarce.
Lack of essentials for living creatures is taken care of, an entire town can provide those rather easily for the one living person in it.
That said, these undead may not NEED all these things, but they still might like having them around.
Also, a village of The Munsters, sounds kind of awesome.
Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.
Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.
Is that good or bad?
Also, a village of The Munsters, sounds kind of awesome.
Then you should probably go all in. Base important PCs on characters from The Munsters and The Addams Family. You could even branch out to things like Andy Griffith, Leave it to Beaver, and The Brady Bunch. Basically any show with an almost overly perfect family can be your guide.
Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?
Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.
Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?
In stock Golarion maybe. But if you are in a world with something like the White Necromancer, then all bets are off. His world's Pharasma may be considerably more mellow.
Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?
Hmm, maybe she intended for this to happen?
IDK.
In stock Golarion maybe. But if you are in a world with something like the White Necromancer, then all bets are off. His world's Pharasma may be considerably more mellow.Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?
The idea is that, when Pharasma has no more souls to judge, Groteus will drop on the Boneyard and erase all of existence.
If undead aren't naturally evil, then it's basically immortality along with immunity to disease and negative energy. It's also incredibly easy for low level magic to produce. This would make being undead incredibly popular.
In effect, non-Evil undead are even more of a problem than ravenous Evil ones, because they eventually lead to oblivion.
Obviously, none of this applies if you don't use Golarion. I just like thinking about it.
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In stock Golarion maybe. But if you are in a world with something like the White Necromancer, then all bets are off. His world's Pharasma may be considerably more mellow.Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?The idea is that, when Pharasma has no more souls to judge, Groteus will drop on the Boneyard and erase all of existence.
If undead aren't naturally evil, then it's basically immortality along with immunity to disease and negative energy. It's also incredibly easy for low level magic to produce. This would make being undead incredibly popular.
In effect, non-Evil undead are even more of a problem than ravenous Evil ones, because they eventually lead to oblivion.
Obviously, none of this applies if you don't use Golarion. I just like thinking about it.
On a more serious note, Golarion is, in fact, an existential horror show if you actually think about it.
In stock Golarion maybe. But if you are in a world with something like the White Necromancer, then all bets are off. His world's Pharasma may be considerably more mellow.Pharasma is the goddess of death. You're making zombies. There's gonna be a whole lot of ass-kicking.Pharasma gonna be all over this so fast.Is that good or bad?The idea is that, when Pharasma has no more souls to judge, Groteus will drop on the Boneyard and erase all of existence.
If undead aren't naturally evil, then it's basically immortality along with immunity to disease and negative energy. It's also incredibly easy for low level magic to produce. This would make being undead incredibly popular.
In effect, non-Evil undead are even more of a problem than ravenous Evil ones, because they eventually lead to oblivion.
Obviously, none of this applies if you don't use Golarion. I just like thinking about it.
I was pretty much going to completely make up my own region, for this campaign anyway, lol.
I might try to combine it with more lore-appropriate content later, but for right now, its my first attempt at GMing, so I wanted to start small scale.
Becoming undead for convenience has the same problems as using a transporter in Star Trek. You can't prove that the person who arrives on the other end is actually you. And in the OPs example, it likely isn't "you" as the person who arrives on the other side has a different alignment than yourself.
Becoming undead for convenience has the same problems as using a transporter in Star Trek. You can't prove that the person who arrives on the other end is actually you. And in the OPs example, it likely isn't "you" as the person who arrives on the other side has a different alignment than yourself.
Ah, but you forget one thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwhAq3F8NCEedited: better version :D
...I need ideas on how to improve the feel of the village for the PCs, I want the undead to all be intelligent, maintaining their personalities despite having bits of themselves falling off.
I want them to have maintained the village at the condition in which they were killed.(non-ruined and completely functional)
Anywho, anyone have ideas that can make this work a little better?
As far as feel, I like the robotic but nice vibe myself as fitting. If it helps, simply play with a any undead creature and morph it to what works for you. If you want it to be RAW certified, the White Necromancer (which I had to look up) seems like it would work.
Beyond mechanics and feel of the town, what do you want this to be for your players? A one time visit or do you expect a continuing relationship? That would have you drawing more detail to the village depending. It'd be funny to have one of the good aligned undead townsfolk wanting to go adventuring for awhile with your crew.
I love your general idea, for what that's worth.
I hate the all undead are evil thing.
Paladin becomes a vampire?
Instant evil!
Reasonable human becomes a vampire?
Evil!
Ect...
Unless it's a new person, then why is the soul still there?
And if it's a new person, who didn't exactly choose to be forcibly imprisoning a soul by it's mere existence, then why must it be evil?
A vampire, using money, could easily get by simply by paying people for blood.
They could easily be beneficial members of society- but no, because you're creating a sentient being that is "always evil" and thus, isn't Sentient, due to lack of ability to choose it's actions.
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How about ghouls? If I remember correctly, a ghoul does not start rotting until it consumes rotting flesh (basically the rotting flesh replaces the old). However, ghouls deeply crave rotting flesh. Therefore, if a ghoul doesn't want to look like a rotting corpse than it needs to abstane from carrion. That could be very interesting in your scenario. They may be "good" ghouls but they are all very, very hungry and those PCs sure would make a great snack after a few days of ripeining; starvation can make good people do very evil things.
It's literary tradition with vampires that predates even Bram Stoker. That's part of the horror aspect of vampirism, that it can corrupt even the purest of souls. And only rare epic level will power can deny that aspect of the change.... until they feed.I hate the all undead are evil thing.
Paladin becomes a vampire?
Instant evil!
Reasonable human becomes a vampire?
Evil!
Ect...
Unless it's a new person, then why is the soul still there?
And if it's a new person, who didn't exactly choose to be forcibly imprisoning a soul by it's mere existence, then why must it be evil?
A vampire, using money, could easily get by simply by paying people for blood.
They could easily be beneficial members of society- but no, because you're creating a sentient being that is "always evil" and thus, isn't Sentient, due to lack of ability to choose it's actions.
Makes no sense.
They shouldn't be called sentient then.They have no choice in their actions, and should be TN, like mindless creatures.
The individual who raised them was a child who everyone in the village raised (irony?) because he was abandoned.
Despite sounding similar to a Twilight Zone episode, this is still a good idea. I would have the kid in a state of denial. He knows what he has done on an instinctive level, but hasn't ever acknowledged it out loud.
This idea, on the whole, has appeared in a number of films and books over the years. In most cases, the people are physically-manifested ghosts - that is, they are physical, and can be touched and interacted-with, but there is something "off" about them. They are too quiet, sometimes space out, and sometimes manifest strange wounds that either reappear and disappear, or never disappear once they are discovered by the protagonists.
You don't need a specific creature to do this, nor rules beyond giving them a low NPC level. If the PCs hurt or kill them, the body just disappears when they aren't looking, then reappears later. See above about the wounds. You don't need a DC for Will saves, either. Describing their behavior in a moody, freaky way should be good enough (horror or macabre games are not about making the characters uncomfortable, they are about making the players uncomfortable).
In some stories, the dead people start disappearing in the order they died, acting as a clue to the protagonists as to what is really going on (provided they find the right newspaper clippings, or diary to match the clue to).
Most of the time, they need the protagonists to do something to help them find peace, but in their efforts to convince them to help, end up terrorizing them, instead. Shades of Sixth Sense there, but still a common trope.
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Centuries of literary and horror tradition MUST be wrong because Icehawk says so. Got it.
Sure. Of course.
Just because I'm stating what I think, doesn't mean I expect you to change your opinion.
That's an impossible task, really.
Though... Clinging to tradition, while there is a clear contradiction ("always evil" and "has a choice") seems odd, no?
No. Just me. Got it.
Sorry for saying what I think. I forgot I can have wrong opinions.
Always thought the evil part of being undead, especially vampires and liches, was the part where lives of humans stop mattering because they're going to die before you anyway. I know elves longevity screws with this theory, but if you know Billy is going to die in three blinks what does it matter if you change it to two?
Always thought the evil part of being undead, especially vampires and liches, was the part where lives of humans stop mattering because they're going to die before you anyway. I know elves longevity screws with this theory, but if you know Billy is going to die in three blinks what does it matter if you change it to two?
Becuase those two will matter quite a bit to others.
And those who keep things in perspective know that they aren't really immortal either. One day, they will die. Age just isn't going to do it.
Along with, you know, acting evil attracting the attention that'll kill you.
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It's literary tradition with vampires that predates even Bram Stoker. That's part of the horror aspect of vampirism, that it can corrupt even the purest of souls. And only rare epic level will power can deny that aspect of the change.... until they feed.I hate the all undead are evil thing.
Paladin becomes a vampire?
Instant evil!
Reasonable human becomes a vampire?
Evil!
Ect...
Unless it's a new person, then why is the soul still there?
And if it's a new person, who didn't exactly choose to be forcibly imprisoning a soul by it's mere existence, then why must it be evil?
A vampire, using money, could easily get by simply by paying people for blood.
They could easily be beneficial members of society- but no, because you're creating a sentient being that is "always evil" and thus, isn't Sentient, due to lack of ability to choose it's actions.
Makes no sense.
They shouldn't be called sentient then.
They have no choice in their actions, and should be TN, like mindless creatures.
In my mind, Vampires are drug addicts. And, as anybody who has had experience with an addict can tell you, addicts will eventually do anything to get their fix. They will lie, steal, and some will even kill. They will probably feal bad about it, especially if it is a loved one who gets hurt, but in the end their need comes first. That is the very definition of Evil.
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Channeling Negative Energy is ALWAYS an Evil act, no matter what the reason/purpose is.
Citation, please.
It's literary tradition with vampires that predates even Bram Stoker. That's part of the horror aspect of vampirism, that it can corrupt even the purest of souls. And only rare epic level will power can deny that aspect of the change.... until they feed.
There are contradictions. "Varney the Vampire" of 1845 doesn't seem evil- could be as i haven't read it but only about it. But I don't think he's evil.
There's a story of Ambrogio and Selene that purports to back to the ancient Greeks, but I'm not sure if that's true. Seems like it could be made up to look old.
Certainly the new wave of vampires in the late 20th c. show non-evil vampires.
[back to topic] The GM seems have the White Nercromancer if he wants good-aligned undead. See LINKand of course GM fiat.
In my mind, Vampires are drug addicts. And, as anybody who has had experience with an addict can tell you, addicts will eventually do anything to get their fix. They will lie, steal, and some will even kill. They will probably feal bad about it, especially if it is a loved one who gets hurt, but in the end their need comes first. That is the very definition of Evil.
Politely pay people for a little blood before you get to that point.
And your needs first? That's neutral.
Defending yourself isn't evil, but you're putting yourself above your assailant.
Most Creatures that eat humans aren't evil, they are TN.
If it truly is so powerful it eventually becomes an overwhelming need, then...
How much different is it then a, say, lion killing someone for food because they were really hungry?
While vampires will never die of starvation, it will make you think you'll die, or close to it.
Though, as I've said... Payment and moderation.