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@Spitfire
But I think you go wrong in your accusations of Slammy. His video is helping to advertise PFO and to help making it better.
In which case it would be false advertisement since he is using an exploit to manipulate the game mechanics and *appear* to have skills in combat. As for "helping to make it better"- he's not.
If he uses key bindings then this is not illegal.He is using something to deliberately break the game mechanics and give himself a significant edge in combat that no other players can reproduce- or they are unwilling to because they know it for what it is. Keybindings, "skill," or bug, his repeated exploitation of the game system is cheating- whether GW would like to call it that or not, is another matter.
If he uses a bug then we can only accuse him if he tries to hide it / tried to exploit it. And if this is the case then he would have been stupid to generate the video to give evidence to others.
What you can accuse him of is gloating about his opponents or taunting them.
I would not under estimate Slappy's arrogance in thinking we would be too dumb to spot the issue in his video. And I would not be convinced if you or anyone tried to tell me that someone as aware about the game and disreputable as he did not notice on multiple occasions that they were not provoking at times when they should have been, but then tried to pass it off as "skill."
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I really hate to see settlement quickly turn into warzones as player killers flood towns for the easy loot killing crafters and bank customers.
Even if the attacker can't loot, the players lose 1/4 of itemsmaterials and carried items on them and take hits to worn gear. So sending in a sapper with little gear may make total strategic sense if the TG don't respond well and rep isn't important.
StuffYou could have just admitted your bad at PVP, that would have saved you multiple paragraphs.
I have already admitted after watching my video in greater detail that it does look like my character is desynced. Although I did not know about this until after making the video. Anyways I am sure the devs have already seen this and will look into it because it seems to be an issue when crossing hex borders. There is plenty of times during that fight where I was red and provoking opportunity, it is not my fault your teams targeting skills were too pitiful to burn me down.
Slappy, please do not insult your intelligence by claiming you were desynced due to crossing hex boundaries when that entire first engagement occurred in the middle of a hex and you are seen to provoke on multiple occaisions when using staff cantrips, but never while moving and attacking with your spear, as described above in my first post.
Meet me in Keeper's Pass tonight if you want to go down. You won't beat me in a fair fight- i.e. sans your opportunity and targeting exploit.
As far as I'm concerned, the guy has at the very least revealed some glaring issues with the combat system. Should all be thanking him rather than trying to lynch him for supposed "hacking".
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As far as I'm concerned, the guy has at the very least revealed some glaring issues with the combat system. Should all be thanking him rather than trying to lynch him for supposed "hacking".
That implies that it was his intention to do so. It seems pretty clear from his self-aggrandization that his intention was anything but helping the game.
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We are going to try to reproduce some of the confitions seen in that video. At this time we don't think anything is happening other than that the game is not performing as expected in all cases. Nothing I saw in that video suggests hacks or cheating - it suggets that the programmers and the gme designers need to look carefully at some details of the movement and condition system.
If we detrmine there is an actual, reproducible bug that impacts play, we will describe it and tell players not to exploit it until we get it fixed.
Thank you for looking into this and the reply.
@All Accusers
Until the developers come back with an evaluation of the situation, the burden of proof is not on the accused. I am reading a lot of finger pointing not even attempting to be phrased as speculation (instead spoken as definitive proof of guilt). Present this definitive evidence or expect that the subjective speculations will be dismissed out of hand.
Golgotha and the EoX (as well as their partner community, Pax Gaming) has expectations on member behavior that do not include clear exploits (as defined by Goblinworks). I encourage as a member of the same partner community that anyone that feels like they have a serious claim do so and the leadership involved (Phyl, Gurzaak, Deacon, Valadryl) will evaluate its merit.
Otherwise it seems silly to pass definitive judgement just because the person involved is abrasive and has a habit of bragging. If that was the criteria for guilt most of this vocal community would be crowding the bottom of the jail right now.
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As far as I'm concerned, the guy has at the very least revealed some glaring issues with the combat system. Should all be thanking him rather than trying to lynch him for supposed "hacking".That implies that it was his intention to do so. It seems pretty clear from his self-aggrandization that his intention was anything but helping the game.
The tears are real, btw I'll 1v1 you anytime. Your trash man...
Correction. Hex -1.12. 10 PM EST.
@ Charlie, Slappy's tactic is plausible deniability. I am denying him plausible deniability. If that requires accusing him in the mean time, I can live with that.
Correction. Hex -1.12. 10 PM EST.
Bud Im in a different time zone. we will do it on the weekend when I host my 2v2 tournament.
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Note that this consensual combat is perfectly in line with the principles uphold for Keeper's Pass. Slammy, if you can keep to that approach then we have no issue with your presence in the settlement. Can you confirm if you will abide by this approach and not attack people within the settlement?
Correction. Hex -1.12. 10 PM EST.Bud Im in a different time zone. we will do it on the weekend when I host my 2v2 tournament.
Or you could just name times that work for you during the week.
You are in Ontario... Pretty sure that is EST.... Bud.
Not when you work nights, BUD.
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I will be disappointed if the primary "skill" in PFO PVP is that of getting your mouse pointer over a very specific spot on the screen and clicking at the precise moment to successfully target your opponent.
I hope that a better solution for easily targeting the character of your choice is swiftly implemented.
I would even suggest delaying corpse husks until such a solution is in place.
My thanks to the people investing their time in exploring and sharing these aspects of PVP, so that we can comment on them, and the developers can get it fixed.
So what timezone would that be then - ESlT (Eastern Slammy Time)?
That is correct sir
That implies that it was his intention to do so. It seems pretty clear from his self-aggrandization that his intention was anything but helping the game.
It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, his videos have revealed game mechanics issues that will now probably get fixed.
I don't really care if he thinks he is god or not, I just want the game to work.
If there had been more PvP like this during Alpha, maybe these issues would have been caught then.
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Until the developers come back with an evaluation of the situation...
... it seems silly to pass definitive judgement just because the person involved is abrasive and has a habit of bragging.
Did you ever see the video of the guy in Darkfall flying around, even as a corpse? Did anyone really need to wait until the developers came back with their official evaluation?
Slammy is clearly not Provoking Opportunity when he obviously should be. That is why people are passing judgment, not "just because" he's abrasive or a braggart.
Your insistence on giving someone with his obvious mastery of every other game system the benefit of the doubt is kinda familiar...
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Until the developers come back with an evaluation of the situation...
... it seems silly to pass definitive judgement just because the person involved is abrasive and has a habit of bragging.
Did you ever see the video of the guy in Darkfall flying around, even as a corpse? Did anyone really need to wait until the developers came back with their official evaluation?
Slammy is clearly not Provoking Opportunity when he obviously should be. That is why people are passing judgment, not "just because" he's abrasive or a braggart.
Your insistence on giving someone with his obvious...
Negative, I never gave Andius the benefit of the doubt irrationally, even when it would have benefited me. Of my many faults, that is not counted on my abacus.
Someone flying around as a corpse IS definitive proof of both exploiting and doing so intentionally. Why? Because you shouldn't be able to fly around. You should certainly not be able to fly around as a corpse. It is impossible to say you thought it was legitimate gameplay. It is such an extreme example you might as well call it god mode.
That Slammy was untargatable in some of those instances is not as definitive. It's obviously not, so much so that even comparing it oozes false equivocation.
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That Slammy was untargatable in some of those instances is not as definitive. It's obviously not, so much so that even comparing it oozes false equivocation.
That really is not the biggest issue, although it definitely is an issue.
That he should have been provoking opportunity for 90% of the time he was recording, that is the issue.
And even he should have known immediately that there was something wrong. To casual shrug and take advantage of the situation, that is another issue.
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That Slammy was untargatable in some of those instances is not as definitive. It's obviously not, so much so that even comparing it oozes false equivocation.
That really is not the biggest issue, although it definitely is an issue.
That he should have been provoking opportunity for 90% of the time he was recording, that is the issue.
And even he should have known immediately that there was something wrong. To casual shrug and take advantage of the situation, that is another issue.
Even then, that Slammy was not provoking opportunity is not directly equivalent to flying around as MurderMan.
It might be that Slammy intentionally exploited, I do not discount that possibility. What I think is being missed in the witch hunt is the assertion he MUST HAVE DONE SO INTENTIONALLY.
In the heat of a battle I myself could easily miss conditions not being applied. Given I am not an expert PFO combatant, or even a mediocre one.
Still, saying that a vulnerability condition is JUST AS OBVIOUS as flying around (even as a corpse no less) as a bonafide super hero in a ground based fantasy game IS A FALSE EQUIVOCATION.
Am I missing something by not buying into my months since EE? Does provoking opportunity (or the lack thereof) turn you purple, into a disco ball, or incur some type of Mortal Combat vocal cue? What makes Slammy's "incident" so glaring obvious that it is equal to flying in the air in a game not designed for character flight?
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That Slammy was untargatable in some of those instances is not as definitive. It's obviously not, so much so that even comparing it oozes false equivocation.
That really is not the biggest issue, although it definitely is an issue.
That he should have been provoking opportunity for 90% of the time he was recording, that is the issue.
And even he should have known immediately that there was something wrong. To casual shrug and take advantage of the situation, that is another issue.
Even then, that Slammy was not provoking opportunity is not directly equivalent to flying around as MurderMan.
It might be that Slammy intentionally exploited, I do not discount that possibility. What I think is being missed in the witch hunt is the assertion he MUST HAVE DONE SO INTENTIONALLY.
In the heat of a battle I myself could easily miss conditions not being applied. Given I am not an expert PFO combatant, or even a mediocre one.
....
The video is around 8 minutes long, and it is clearly edited from longer footage. Slappy has been running around PvPing for the last few days.
To say that he 'didn't know' that something was wrong is either very naive, or telling us that you think he may have mental issues.
So yes, after he determined that something was wrong, he INTENTIONALLY did not report it, did not log out and log back in to try to correct the problem, or do anything else in order to rectify the situation.
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I am not comparing anything to flying; that was not my analogy.
The specific cue, to anyone (like Slappy) who has spent any amount of time fighting in PFO (PVE or PVP), is the giant opportunity icon that pops up every single time you are in battle stance (weapon drawn) and you are moving at faster than a walk.
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It flaws your logic though. If he was purposefully keeping his character from getting opportunity then why wouldn't he just make it so that he could never get opportunity again?
Furthermore, a major flaw in your logic is him creating a video.
You are using personal bias and drama to affect your judgement. He MUST be CHEATING.
And I could care less what debuffs pop up on the screen while I'm playing. My character has little control on effects that are on him. I have more control over the effects of my opponent.
People complain about something that is obviously out of his hands, but no one complains about "Naked Tower Grabs". In terms of which one is more exploitative and intentional we both know the answer. (And some of us are too kind of heart to post the videos to the internet for fear it will damage PFO further in the minds of the public)
"Naked Suicide Bombing" reputation.
I could go on and on about ways that people (in my videos and streams) have exploited a lack of mechanics to damage other parties.
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Yeah there seems to be a lot of really personal feelings involved in this. Slammy may very well pay more attention to things than I do but I'll be honest I don't normally pay that much attention to my buff/debuff icons in the heat of battle so much that I'd know in a fight that I wasn't provoking opportunity. I know what effects I'm under through deduction by looking at the abilities thrown my way by others and by their more obvious effects on my character (ie a slow). I say that knowing that while I'm not the greatest of PvPers I'm at least halfway competent.
A little background: before this all blew up we were discussing this in TS. The comments about Slammy being abnormally hard to target had people looking at the video to determine why and saying yeah it looked like he was not provoking opportunity and perhaps he had de synced. I know I've had the spell desync hit me even while not at a hex boundary. It happens when I'm traveling and spamming my speed boost. Slammy hadn't noticed it; another player had while watching the video. Slammy's a pretty good actor if he'd been aware of it and was exploiting it prior to being called out for being hard to target.
I hope this issue can be resolved quickly for the betterment of all!
Until a video from the "victims" side is posted I will assume and rightly so that they are merely incapable of clicking a mouse button on a moving target. Any further accusations should be interpreted as nothing more than accusations and equated to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onkbubwAqRQ
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I am not comparing anything to flying; that was not my analogy.
The specific cue, to anyone (like Slappy) who has spent any amount of time fighting in PFO (PVE or PVP), is the giant opportunity icon that pops up every single time you are in battle stance (weapon drawn) and you are moving at faster than a walk.
My apologies then, I thought by your reply that you were offering support for the comparison.
So if Slammy is an experienced player, he should have noticed the lack of this icon in many cases?
Only he can speak to whether he saw the icon, or knew what to look for and notice it in the heat of battle(s) reliably. If he noticed it and did nothing to correct it he should announce that fact and refrain from using that tactic in the future.
I have no position of authority to enforce that, but that is my opinion and it falls within the guidelines of the community of which I belong.
If he did not notice it he might not want to state such, as apparently the criteria for not noticing it is mental retardation. It wouldn't bother me if such was truly the case, but I am much less skilled in pvp combat and have no real ego to speak of. The truth would simply be the truth.
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It flaws your logic though. If he was purposefully keeping his character from getting opportunity then why wouldn't he just make it so that he could never get opportunity again?
Never did I say he was manipulating the game to avoid Opportunity. What I said was that, having obviously noticed that something was wrong, he purposefully did nothing to correct the issue. Instead he used it to his advantage.
That's all I'm saying.
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@Flynn
I killed you at least 3 or 4 times, pretty sure I can click on you.
@All
I can concede that the opportunity thing is a bug (which I believe it is in fact a bug), as well as expendable not working correctly. The biggest issue I have is the small hit boxes and terrible targeting system here. Although, personally, it felt like slammy's hit box was much smaller than anyone else on his team. Whether he is exploiting or not, what ever, doesn't matter. The only thing that does matter is that Goblinworks identifies the issue and fixes it.
EDIT: Auto Correct is failing me big time!
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I am not comparing anything to flying; that was not my analogy.
The specific cue, to anyone (like Slappy) who has spent any amount of time fighting in PFO (PVE or PVP), is the giant opportunity icon that pops up every single time you are in battle stance (weapon drawn) and you are moving at faster than a walk.
My apologies then, I thought by your reply that you were offering support for the comparison.
So if Slammy is an experienced player, he should have noticed the lack of this icon in many cases?
Only he can speak to whether he saw the icon, or knew what to look for and notice it in the heat of battle(s) reliably. If he noticed it and did nothing to correct it he should announce that fact and refrain from using that tactic in the future.
I have no position of authority to enforce that, but that is my opinion and it falls within the guidelines of the community of which I belong.
If he did not notice it he might not want to state such, as apparently the criteria for not noticing it is mental retardation. It wouldn't bother me if such was truly the case, but I am much less skilled in pvp combat and have no real ego to speak of. The truth would simply be the truth.
That is exactly my point. I would hope that ANYONE who knows that they are experiencing a bug do something to correct it, NOT exploit it.
This is not an anti-Slappy campaign; it is an anti-exploit campaign.
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The benefit of the doubt is a precious commodity, and it's not something anyone can demand from anyone else. Much like respect, it's earned over time based on history. The fact that so few are willing to give Slammy the benefit of the (excruciatingly minute) doubt says more about Slammy than it does about them.
I'll reiterate that only the devs know whether or not he ever posted any bug reports about any of this stuff.
And I'll also reiterate that it's a pretty big stretch to assume that someone with such obvious mastery over so many of the game systems and such obvious skill for gaining tactical advantages just didn't notice these other things or the tactical advantages he gained from them.
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The reason why Slappy... er mean Slammy seems to have people dislike him is his tactics when PvPing and then bragging about it. Others have had more experience with his antics but my personally experience was him rushing into either Hammerfall or Keeper's Pass, attacking unarmed crafters, and then fleeing any time a real PvP character comes along to defend the crafters.
And currently with no gain from attacking crafters (loot), it can only be seen as griefing to me. If he had done it outside of the settlement with a gathering character, that is okay, for it could be a resource protecting thing.
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So that was chasing you around killing me last night? It seems you caused all my deaths that night than and I tip my hat to you. But I sure hope no one had any problems clicking on me considering I was standing there with a longbow lol. As far as the pvp went I hope everyone had a good time, I know I did (Went from 21pks 50pks). Don't see any need for all this drama though you would think this game had perma death based upon some of these forum complaints.
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The benefit of the doubt is a precious commodity, and it's not something anyone can demand from anyone else. Much like respect, it's earned over time based on history. The fact that so few are willing to give Slammy the benefit of the (excruciatingly minute) doubt says more about Slammy than it does about them.
I'll reiterate that only the devs know whether or not he ever posted any bug reports about any of this stuff.
And I'll also reiterate that it's a pretty big stretch to assume that someone with such obvious mastery over so many of the game systems and such obvious skill for gaining tactical advantages just didn't notice these other things or the tactical advantages he gained from them.
I get that, and as subjective as it is I don't refute it. I prefer to offer the benefit of the doubt to everyone, even if I hate them. I do that because that is ultimately what I would like others to do as well. I understand not everyone holds that position.
Still, miles different that being equally as obvious as a flying murder hobo.
*stuff was said*
I'm still going to kick his ass. If Erian is fine with KP as the battleground, then KP it is. We'll meet on the Wizard quad. Since this is about skill, Tier 1 +2 gear max. Two third parties will record the encounter, one targeting Slammy and the other targeting me.
Slammy can name the times that work best for him on Saturday and Sunday and we will go from there.
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And I'll also reiterate that it's a pretty big stretch to assume that someone with such obvious mastery over so many of the game systems and such obvious skill for gaining tactical advantages just didn't notice these other things or the tactical advantages he gained from them.
Besides Slammy's own confidence in his skills (of which can be inflated in such online pvp cases), do you feel like his skill level is so elite that it is inconceivable that he would miss not having a condition?
Merkaile seems to think he would miss it, and he isn't bad at pvp in other games. He is much more humble, and that is generally what I like about the guy. That said is Slammy just this darn good or are we under the assumption that his boasts are completely accurate?
I don't mind folks saying "I ain't giving him the benefit of the doubt, because of X,Y,or Z. That is business as usual and honestly it isn't going to change.
What I thought was being argued is that he certainly is guilty (in one case he is absolved only if he made a bug report). Indeed it is supposedly so clear that to think anything else makes you stupid or your faculties are suspect.
That is what I am having issues accepting. That is an especially harsh stance, and it seems to me the evidence SHOULD be equally as damning as flying around as Specter McMurderman.
So far I don't see that mountain of clear evidence. What I am reading is mostly "Just look around you" with no allowance for any other conclusion than "Yep, he dun dun it."
Also, Nihimon's point about the possibility Slammy may have notified GW of the exploit before posting the video is the only scenario in which I would rescind my charge of cheating. Explaining the exploit at this point would be meaningless.
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Besides Slammy's own confidence in his skills (of which can be inflated in such online pvp cases), do you feel like his skill level is so elite that it is inconceivable that he would miss not having a condition?
And I'll also reiterate that it's a pretty big stretch to assume that someone with such obvious mastery over so many of the game systems and such obvious skill for gaining tactical advantages just didn't notice these other things or the tactical advantages he gained from them.
Well, I know that that word means what I think it means, so no, I wouldn't say it's inconceivable. I said it's a pretty big stretch.
Each person has to make up their own mind about whether to give him the benefit of the doubt, and they'll use their subjective opinions of him to do that. I've had a fair bit of interaction with Slammy - he joined Phaeros in-game in the first few days of EE, I've grouped with him and spent some time with him on TS. He apparently chose to leave (I found out second-hand) when I had to remind him for a second time that we didn't want to get a reputation for being random player killers, and we certainly didn't want him attacking our allies from Keeper's Pass.
It was incredibly obvious to me very early on that he was a skilled, motivated player. He was very strong in PvE and I was hopeful he'd stick around. I think any group that played with him would immediately recognize his talent and skill, and I think it's pretty obvious he's spent a lot of time and thought analyzing the game systems to pick and choose some really powerful synergies in his build. I believe that he's also extremely knowledgeable about the conditions that he can put on his opponents to get tactical advantages. Based on all that, I find it difficult to believe that he wasn't aware of the tactical advantages he was gaining in other ways.
What I thought was being argued is that he certainly is guilty...
I think this is where it's important to keep in mind who's making what point. There are some folks in here who have flat-out stated he "must" be exploiting. I'm not one of them, although I believe he's intentionally exploiting - based on a lot of different things but also including my personal opinion of him.
But again, defending him to one person by challenging the arguments that another person made isn't likely to get you anywhere.
... it seems to me the evidence SHOULD be equally as damning as flying around as Specter McMurderman.
My example about the Darkfall video was meant as a direct response to this statement:
Until the developers come back with an evaluation of the situation, the burden of proof is not on the accused.
That sounds to me like a general rule: no judgment, ever, until the developers make their official ruling. My example was simply meant to point out that there do exist cases where there's no need to wait for developer evaluation. I did not intend it to be taken as definitive proof that this particular instance was equally cut-and-dried.
Once you accept that there are some cases where it's reasonable to make a judgment before there's any official ruling, that opens the door to actually analyzing the arguments on each side rather than using the lack of a developer ruling to completely shut down the conversation.
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@Nihimon
Then I owe you an apology. I misinterpreted your intent on many accounts:
1. I mistakenly attributed your judgement as not subjective
2. I mistook your intent on posting the DF video. I thought it was drawing a comparison to the incident at hand as being roughly equal.
Those points cleared up I respect your stance and merely disagree with its conclusion.
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That sounds to me like a general rule: no judgment, ever, until the developers make their official ruling.
Bringing this up just to clarify. I do not believe that you can not know, without a shadow of a doubt whether someone has exploited or not. My position is that I don't think witch hunts and public shaming are necessary when there is any doubt that the perpetrator could be innocent (whether by ignorance or any other factor).
In those specific cases it is my preference to default to developer inquiry.
I understand that might not be your stance, I just wanted to clarify what mine was.