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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tgpMuC1tzE
Last video until player husks come out. As always, I urge others to post their footage.
Also next weekend I will be hosting a 2v2 PVP tournament in Golgotha. I will post more info and details pertaining to this event at a later period.
Erratic movement. Right now the hit boxes to click on are very small. I wish they would fix targeting because its f$~#ed.
You just need more skill with clicking on characters.
As for opportunity, no clue. Your guess is as good as mine.
@Slammy - what was the second song that played?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_videoeditor&v=YV0JDlntFdQ
Goblin Squad Member
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@Slammy,
Can you please format your links so they are viable on mobile devices?
Format example: (url=www.cnn.com)CNN(/url) ; CNN
Replace "(" or ")" with "[" or "]". Thanks. :)
@Slammy,
Can you please format your links so they are viable on mobile devices?
Format example: (url=www.cnn.com)CNN(/url) ; CNN
Replace "(" or ")" with "[" or "]". Thanks. :)
For sure mate. I was already watching my first one on my phone so i figured it already worked? Ill take a look though.
Edit: sorry I understand what you mean now, You can just type in youtube search (Pathfinder online pvp slammy) both the vids are on the first page.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Alright, so this was against us, and for the most part, almost no one could click on you.
Aeryx and I were the only two that could click on you SOME of the time, also, your erratic q/e pushing it seems is making your opportunity disappear, which can be seen a few times in the video.
As you watch the video, you will notice a lot of the time people just running around you, mostly following you, and dying. These people were unable to click on you for the most part, although your allies were a different story, the two that fought the most died fairly often.
The last thing, any type of Immobilize, Knockdown, Stun, Knockback...etc. just would not work against you, I sat there in our first battle attempting to use Hold Person on you multiple times, did absolutely nothing, which is improbable, we tested the spell on our own people, which worked fine.
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If I didn't know better I would almost think you guys were upset for getting beat and accusing me of hacking ? As you can see in the video I get stunned multiple times. And my guess as to why hold person did not work for you is because you can still cast it with no power, it just doesn't do anything. You probably had no power. I've done that so many times with string bolas. I am red very few times in this fight so that may make targeting me much harder?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am just saying, its hard to click you compared to other people, which is the main issue here. If we could consistently click on you, those battles wouldn't be so lopsided. Hell, if it was directional based attacks without having to target you the battles would have been different.
As for our expendables, no expendables were working on you, if that is bug or not, I can not say.
Not being able to click, and eventually when clicking not being able to use our most powerful abilities just sucks.
As soon as you hit red though, the two or three times that happened, we were able to do some significant concentrated damage.
I think one of the points here is the fact that targeting doesn't work correctly, which can lead to one sided battles. Also, being able to heal someone that is red can be crucial at times.
These are fixes that need to get in sooner rather than later.
Agreed. Also almost seems like my character is desynced on the hex borders.
If there is some exploit that makes it inappropriately difficult for others to target you, you shouldn't be using it.
What, by constantly moving?
Watch the video again and observe how many of his kills were people just standing in place.
More than half the fault for his kill streak was his targets' lack of staying mobile. The ones who did stay mobile certainly lived longer at least.
I'm willing to bet the hex boundary thing Daz mentioned is probably the reason for the expendables not working.
Targeting is definitely difficult. No reason Sammy's opponents couldn't have used the same tactics though.
I begged people to practice PvP with me and others during alpha. Seemed like the majority of people were content to practice crafting.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that it was not intentional.
You can clearly see in the first minute of the vid that the fighting happens on a hex boundary. We all know what kind if fun bugs happen there.
I DO think he very much took advantage of the situation in order to wreak havoc. He must have known that his character should be provoking opportunity, but made no efforts to log and try to reset. That is exploitative as far as I'm concerned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If there is some exploit that makes it inappropriately difficult for others to target you, you shouldn't be using it.What, by constantly moving?
Watch the video again and observe how many of his kills were people just standing in place.
More than half the fault for his kill streak was his targets' lack of staying mobile. The ones who did stay mobile certainly lived longer at least.
I'm willing to bet the hex boundary thing Daz mentioned is probably the reason for the expendables not working.
Targeting is definitely difficult. No reason Sammy's opponents couldn't have used the same tactics though.
I begged people to practice PvP with me and others during alpha. Seemed like the majority of people were content to practice crafting.
This game has been intentionally designed to do away with that twitch-type game play. Erratic movement like what Slammy is doing should be provoking Opportunity, but doesn't. To say that others should be doing that is false, in my opinion.
It seems to me they weren't hitting him much anyway (couldn't target), so whether or not he provoked opportunity wouldn't have mattered.
They in turn, made themselves easy to target by standing still (many of them, not all).
That is my main point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems to me they weren't hitting him much anyway (couldn't target), so whether or not he provoked opportunity wouldn't have mattered.
They in turn, made themselves easy to target by standing still (many of them, not all).
That is my main point.
But they said they couldn't target him. I honestly think that he desynched at the hex biundary, thats why nothing was working on him.
Just like if you've ever been attacked by NPCs on a boundary, and you attack over and over but they take no damage. Their attacks still hurt you, though.
Same thing here.
It seems to me they weren't hitting him much anyway (couldn't target), so whether or not he provoked opportunity wouldn't have mattered.
They in turn, made themselves easy to target by standing still (many of them, not all).
That is my main point.
Agreed, Dazyk and his band of brothers made for easy pray. Now we can only hope that targeting gets fixed before player husks come into game...
But they said they couldn't target him.
1. Couldn't target because difficulty of the current targeting system *multiplied* by lack of practice *multiplied* by erratically moving target.
- or -
2. Couldn't target because the system prevented any targeting because of a bug.
---
Since he did take damage on occasion, I'm guessing its #1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Doc,
We could target everyone else, but him, on a regular basis, they were moving too. Being able to spam q/e shouldn't prevent me from targeting someone attacking me, unless this is suppose to be a skill focused game, then I could just straight up aim and attack.
If you notice, the few of us that were standing still, sometimes we were doing nothing, trying to acquire target. If I stand still it makes me a target for his spear, once he came over, eventually I might get target on him. If you notice I did something like this during the beginning of the video, after I acquired target then I moved off while attacking.
Your number 1 shouldn't matter at all, because were suppose to be able to key target, not click target, the foundation of the game isn't even set. So, essentially, Slammy is good at the current system, once I can target him like I should be able to, moving doesn't matter at all for targeting purposes (still matters for distance of attacks/getting away).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Slammy, I would ask one thing of you in your efforts here. Keeper's Pass, as with the Keepers of the Circle, is dedicated to the concept of non-aggression. I would kindly ask that you not engage in your provocations in our settlement. I fully understand both the desire for combat as well as the need to test out game mechanics. However, I am certain you can easily find multitudes of characters to fight without violating our primary tenet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know at least one of the "targeting" issues in the videos was the player in question took a while to work out that tab target does not work with "white" players. That is simply a lack of PvP experience rather than a game issue.
Generally speaking though, the ability to come into settlements at will using stealth, find a spot away from Thornguard and kill AFK crafters with ranged attacks is not in keeping with the original Goblinworks comments that home settlements would be a place of relative safety.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Generally speaking though, the ability to come into settlements at will using stealth, find a spot away from Thornguard and kill AFK crafters with ranged attacks is not in keeping with the original Goblinworks comments that home settlements would be a place of relative safety.
If it encourages GW to give the guards more teeth, it might be worthwhile.
If they don't want to spend time/effort on AI, I'd suggest variable rep hits: 2x rep hit on 'guarded' roads and 3x rep hit when you attack someone in a settlement not your own, including TK and starter towns.
Slammy, I would ask one thing of you in your efforts here. Keeper's Pass, as with the Keepers of the Circle, is dedicated to the concept of non-aggression. I would kindly ask that you not engage in your provocations in our settlement. I fully understand both the desire for combat as well as the need to test out game mechanics. However, I am certain you can easily find multitudes of characters to fight without violating our primary tenet.
I hate to break it to you man, but seeing how you guys are apparently dedicated to crafting and not doing any pvp, you're probably going to end up target numero uno as soon as lootable husks are in this coming week.
Not a threat by me, just a prediction. Sheep are easier to take down than wolves or lions after all, and their wool is worth money.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I hate to break it to you man, but seeing how you guys are apparently dedicated to crafting and not doing any pvp, you're probably going to end up target numero uno as soon as lootable husks are in this coming week.Not a threat by me, just a prediction. Sheep are easier to take down than wolves or lions after all, and their wool is worth money.
Non aggression simply means no going over to the neighbors and picking a fight out of boredom. Defensive PvP is fine. Keepers do have PvP players and a lot of PvP alts however they tend to not be standing around town unless its the PvP tower window.
I do not see that being much different in any settlement whether crafting or not. I would be very surprised if any settlement in game currently assigns player guards to the settlement entrances 24/7. This may change with husk looting.
The significant thing is Goblinworks have changed their policy from Settlements being a relatively safe hex from random PvP to an area where the players need to actively defend the crafters and settlement. One random PvPer at Keepers has been enough to disrupt trading and crafting for long periods, a concerted attack with a full company spread over most of a day would bring an entire settlement to a halt.
The other (presumably intentional) change is to make crafting work out of the players inventory rather than the vault. This means crafters will always be holding large quantities of raw and finished goods and continually walking backwards and forward to the bank with them. In the past gatherers and traders were always discussed as the main targets of banditry but under the current system crafters and people standing at banks will be the prime targets.
This all seems designed by Goblinworks to encourage random PvP within the boundaries of opposing settlements (rather than out in tower hexes) which is all fine - however it would have been good if this policy change has been outlined a bit more clearly so people know where they stand.
Note that this is quite different to EVE where despite the aggressive PvP it is relatively simple to dock up or AFK cloak at a safespot and leave the keyboard without logging out. Also in EVE continually killing the same person over and over for no reason other than "tears" is regarded as griefing and can get a ban. In contrast in PFO if you leave the keyboard, even in a settlement, you risk being killed multiple times and returning to a naked character standing at a shrine :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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As my good friend notes, we are certainly not pacifists. Indeed, there are multiple groups within the Keepers focused on combat, and we also have allied companies settled in Keeper's Pass that are specifically focused on being mercenary groups for hire. We fully expect to be targeted by bandits and the like, and we fully expect to be able to beat them more often than not, whether through our own folks or our allies. Anyone that takes Erian as being an easily targeted sheep will likely be surprised. I've been a vocal advocate of PvP, and am certain you'll find no hint of me opposing it in my previous posts.
That said, my chosen challenge in this game is the political and mercantile front. I chose Keepers of the Circle not only because they are a great bunch of folks and I enjoy working with them, but also because I believe the challenge of trying to uphold a non-aggression tenet in a game such as this will be quite fun. I believe this to be a far more engaging path than simply focusing on the combat from a long-term perspective. To that end, I've been actively engaged in diplomacy with many groups, to include Golgotha. All groups are welcome in Keeper's Pass, regardless of affiliation, so long as they heed our call for non-aggression. This will of course be a heck of a lot easier to enforce when GW has the settlement mechanics for setting laws and identifying outlaws in place.
Slammy is under no obligation to heed our request, of course, but my goal is to engage in conversation rather than leading with my fists as some do. I believe that Slammy is looking for meaningful combat, not simply killing easy targets for the laughs, and so offer some alternatives for his goals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The significant thing is Goblinworks have changed their policy from Settlements being a relatively safe hex from random PvP to an area where the players need to actively defend the crafters and settlement. One random PvPer at Keepers has been enough to disrupt trading and crafting for long periods, a concerted attack with a full company spread over most of a day would bring an entire settlement to a halt.
That one is probably worth a topic by itself. I've spend the past few years under the impression that guards would be taking out people causing trouble in settlement outside the pvp window. It's really a huge shift in things with a lot of potential to be disruptive to te game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The significant thing is Goblinworks have changed their policy from Settlements being a relatively safe hex from random PvP to an area where the players need to actively defend the crafters and settlement. One random PvPer at Keepers has been enough to disrupt trading and crafting for long periods, a concerted attack with a full company spread over most of a day would bring an entire settlement to a halt.That one is probably worth a topic by itself. I've spend the past few years under the impression that guards would be taking out people causing trouble in settlement outside the pvp window. It's really a huge shift in things with a lot of potential to be disruptive to te game.
I think this is still the intention but the finetuning isn't there yet - so you players found ways to attack without problems.
The rep system will cause the guards to attack - and some players will have found how difficult it is to get away when respawning at a shrine in a settlement - but as I said - players will be clever and found ways this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The significant thing is Goblinworks have changed their policy from Settlements being a relatively safe hex from random PvP to an area where the players need to actively defend the crafters and settlement. One random PvPer at Keepers has been enough to disrupt trading and crafting for long periods, a concerted attack with a full company spread over most of a day would bring an entire settlement to a halt.That one is probably worth a topic by itself. I've spend the past few years under the impression that guards would be taking out people causing trouble in settlement outside the pvp window. It's really a huge shift in things with a lot of potential to be disruptive to te game.
I still maintain the same impression - but we are currently not setting our own settlement laws. Thornguards by default allow murder and only hunt those with extreme low rep. Our own guards could presumably be instructed to hunt anyone with an attacker flag. Adding city walls, trespasser laws, more guards etc would further increase safety.
Of course, linking crafting stations to the bank instead of inventory would be a different way of protecting crafters, but i can sort of understand if GW want to force everyone to live with some risk.
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At 1 minute 47 seconds or so Slappy takes damage while in dead sprint. Regardless of all circumstances, if he is moving any faster than a walk he should gain the provoking condition after taking damage. He clearly does not gain provoking. I am calling hacks if no one else will. I'm sure the devs are looking into this now.
In fact, the entire fight against Cheatle in the early part of the video (Cheatle has the cleaver), Slappy is both moving AND taking damage AND attacking- but never provoking. Whatever Slappy is doing, it is not skill. It is illegal abuse of the game systems. I hope he gets a good slam in the face for it by GW.
But if you really want to see proof that something is going on behind the scenes, skip to 4 minutes and 20 seconds. It will cut to a new scene where Slappy is seen charging forward with his spear. He is provoking opportunity! Not 6 seconds later in the video he is still running around attacking people with the spear, but no longer provoking.
At 5.14 you see Slappy provoking while moving again. Whatever it is that Slappy turns on to negate provoking, he forgets to reactivate it here- or doesn't think he needs it to win. During that time he suffers the first stun we see affect him in the video; but not, apparently, the first one that is directed at him.
At 8.50 we get back to him moving, attacking and not provoking again- coincidentally also when he has people who have managed to target him and are dealing damage.
The final nail in the coffin is this: If Slappy is pulsing q/e back and forth in rapid succession, the movement in his character is imperceptible to the human eye- if the movements are even registering at all by the game. That requires machine speed and precision. Human fingers can't sustain that kind of activity for prolonged periods without the cadence breaking down, at the very least.
Disregarding everything above (which is to say that I have no comment on whatever allegations were brought up), I have an entirely separate issue that should be looked at.
In one of the fights, after I attacked "Bows," he charged me and I began trying to heal myself. I pressed Escape to remove the target and began spamming my Minor Cure, but every time I was hit by the spear, it would re-target Bows, healing him because he's still white.
Now, I realize that I'm terrible at PvP (video is perfect example of why I'm a crafter) and I should have just pressed F1 instead of Escape, but I feel this reiterates the need for a system that can tell when someone is your enemy. If my ally begins the fight, I still want to heal him (but can't), and I don't want to heal our enemy (but the system prefers the white guy attacking me).
Not a bug in the current system and likely wouldn't be an issue if I were any good at PvP, but it's still something I'd be glad to see changed.
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At 1 minute 47 seconds or so Slappy takes damage while in dead sprint. Regardless of all circumstances, if he is moving any faster than a walk he should gain the provoking condition after taking damage. He clearly does not gain provoking. I am calling hacks if no one else will. I'm sure the devs are looking into this now.
In fact, the entire fight against Cheatle in the early part of the video (Cheatle has the cleaver), Slappy is both moving AND taking damage AND attacking- but never provoking. Whatever Slappy is doing, it is not skill. It is illegal abuse of the game systems. I hope he gets a good slam in the face for it by GW.
But if you really want to see proof that something is going on behind the scenes, skip to 4 minutes and 20 seconds. It will cut to a new scene where Slappy is seen charging forward with his spear. He is provoking opportunity! Not 6 seconds later in the video he is still running around attacking people with the spear, but no longer provoking.
At 5.14 you see Slappy provoking while moving again. Whatever it is that Slappy turns on to negate provoking, he forgets to reactivate it here- or doesn't think he needs it to win. During that time he suffers the first stun we see affect him in the video; but not, apparently, the first one that is directed at him.
At 8.50 we get back to him moving, attacking and not provoking again- coincidentally also when he has people who have managed to target him and are dealing damage.
The final nail in the coffin is this: If Slappy is pulsing q/e back and forth in rapid succession, the movement in his character is imperceptible to the human eye- if the movements are even registering at all by the game. That requires machine speed and precision. Human fingers can't sustain that kind of activity for prolonged periods without the cadence breaking down, at the very least.
You could have just admitted your bad at PVP, that would have saved you multiple paragraphs.
I have already admitted after watching my video in greater detail that it does look like my character is desynced. Although I did not know about this until after making the video. Anyways I am sure the devs have already seen this and will look into it because it seems to be an issue when crossing hex borders. There is plenty of times during that fight where I was red and provoking opportunity, it is not my fault your teams targeting skills were too pitiful to burn me down.If I already got haters, must mean I am doing something right!
Thanks for the giggle mate :D
Slammy, I would ask one thing of you in your efforts here. Keeper's Pass, as with the Keepers of the Circle, is dedicated to the concept of non-aggression. I would kindly ask that you not engage in your provocations in our settlement. I fully understand both the desire for combat as well as the need to test out game mechanics. However, I am certain you can easily find multitudes of characters to fight without violating our primary tenet.
I fully agree and respect your request, but the matter of the fact is. You are playing an open loot PVP game. One cannot simply ask for non-aggression from attackers without not offering them anything. Especially if they were traders/crafters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We fully understand (and acknowledge above) the nature of this game. You seem to be disregarding the value of the current state of affairs between the Keepers of the Circle and Golgotha. We respect Golgothan territory and laws, because we have thus far had positive relations with Golgotha, and specifically with Phyllian. As such, we will not initiate any attacks against Golgotha, nor participate in aggressive actions against Golgotha.
Are you saying that these positive relations have no value to you, and you'd rather provoke the Keepers into a relationship of aggression? We are certainly willing to live with that state if it is the desire of Golgotha to cease our current relations. I would ask that you consult with your leaders before taking that step. You are welcome to stay in Keeper's Pass, and you are even welcome to issue challenges to the "weak" to show their skills in combat--the Keepers have no problem with consensual combat
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Spitfire
Great observations and I hope these are helpful for the developers. But I think you go wrong in your accusations of Slammy. His video is helping to advertise PFO and to help making it better.
If he uses key bindings then this is not illegal. If he uses a bug then we can only accuse him if he tries to hide it / tried to exploit it. And if this is the case then he would have been stupid to generate the video to give evidence to others.
What you can accuse him of is gloating about his opponents or taunting them.
edit: And that will hurt him at some stage as he paints a bulls eye on his back - but I guess that is how he enjoys the game
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still maintain the same impression - but we are currently not setting our own settlement laws. Thornguards by default allow murder and only hunt those with extreme low rep. Our own guards could presumably be instructed to hunt anyone with an attacker flag. Adding city walls, trespasser laws, more guards etc would further increase safety.
Of course, linking crafting stations to the bank instead of inventory would be a different way of protecting crafters, but i can sort of understand if GW want to force everyone to live with some risk.
As is the safety requirement shifts from, don't travel alone, to don't ever be alone. Puts undue stress on the players, and if slappy's behavior of attacking players in town became widespread would be risking players rage quitting the game. If randomly killing players in town became widespread, I would feel safer alone in the wilderness, and only go into town for quick high risk bank/crafting runs, which is almost certainly not the game working as intended.
@all minus Slammy
Can I use this in my next video please?
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The intnent of the design is that wherever Thornguard are, "murder" should result in swift justice to the killer, and criminals should be dealt with before they can act. The current conditions in the game don't reflect that design but that is temporary.
The intent of the design is that you craft from the vault not from your inventory. Likewise, crafting from inventory is temporary.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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We are going to try to reproduce some of the confitions seen in that video. At this time we don't think anything is happening other than that the game is not performing as expected in all cases. Nothing I saw in that video suggests hacks or cheating - it suggets that the programmers and the gme designers need to look carefully at some details of the movement and condition system.
If we detrmine there is an actual, reproducible bug that impacts play, we will describe it and tell players not to exploit it until we get it fixed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The murder thing doesn't sound to hard to implement, but I'm not exactly a programmer. I would think it would be important to at least have Thornguard respond to the act of player killing before lootable husks become a thing. Responding specifically to the Attacker tag might be taking it to far, but probably would be the easiest way to get it in as a temporary fix.
I really hate to see settlement quickly turn into warzones as player killers flood towns for the easy loot killing crafters and bank customers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The intent of the design is that you craft from the vault not from your inventory. Likewise, crafting from inventory is temporary.
That will be nice. It is a good thing that the Smeltmill was so close to the bank when I went to make my +3 Common Steel Ingots that required 37 Iron and 38 coal with my newbie Smelter. :O
I like the Encumbered mechanic though, never thought that this could become an actual feature again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Breaking from my focus on the specifics of Keeper's Pass laws/diplomacy...
From a game mechanics perspective, it would certainly be nice if settlement members weren't flagged or given negative rep for attacking reported hostiles in their own settlement. I can of course see how making that open to all settlement members might lead to abuse, but perhaps settlement leaders could designate characters (or a company) as "the law in these here parts" to limit this to appropriate players.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We are going to try to reproduce some of the confitions seen in that video. At this time we don't think anything is happening other than that the game is not performing as expected in all cases. Nothing I saw in that video suggests hacks or cheating - it suggets that the programmers and the gme designers need to look carefully at some details of the movement and condition system.
If we detrmine there is an actual, reproducible bug that impacts play, we will describe it and tell players not to exploit it until we get it fixed.
Could we at least get confirmation from the designers that there are no intended ways to maneuver in combat at full speed without Provoking Opportunity?