PVP Videos - Slammy 2 - Watch in highest Quality.


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Goblin Squad Member

-Aet- Charlie wrote:
I respect your stance and merely disagree with its conclusion.

Been there, done that, got the tee shirt :)

Goblin Squad Member

-Aet- Charlie wrote:
Nihimon wrote:
That sounds to me like a general rule: no judgment, ever, until the developers make their official ruling.

Bringing this up just to clarify. I do not believe that you can not know, without a shadow of a doubt whether someone has exploited or not. My position is that I don't think witch hunts and public shaming are necessary when there is any doubt that the perpetrator could be innocent (whether by ignorance or any other factor).

In those specific cases it is my preference to default to developer inquiry.

I understand that might not be your stance, I just wanted to clarify what mine was.

I respect your stance, but disagree with it.

*winks*

Goblin Squad Member

I figured as much. That was the reason I made sure to explain I was not bringing the clarification up to be argumentative.


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I'm sure Slammy wasn't hacking, and it was probably fully unintentional rather than deliberate bug abuse. That said, bragging about a "victory" and mocking those who "lost" to him for complaining, even after admitting it was probably a glitch, is pretty weak form. That's the sort of behavior I saw a lot in the Runescape community.

Trash-talking and bragging have their place in any PvP game, but good braggarts make sure their brags aren't bogus before boasting 'bout battles. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm sure Slammy wasn't hacking, and it was probably fully unintentional rather than deliberate bug abuse. That said, bragging about a "victory" and mocking those who "lost" to him for complaining, even after admitting it was probably a glitch, is pretty weak form. That's the sort of behavior I saw a lot in the Runescape community.

Trash-talking and bragging have their place in any PvP game, but good braggarts make sure their brags aren't bogus before boasting 'bout battles. ;)

Now that I could probably agree with.

Goblin Squad Member

Had to give you a +1 for your beautiful bardic brilliance.

Edit: Also, I REEEAAALLLLY like alliteration.

Goblin Squad Member

sspitfire1 wrote:
people wrote:
*stuff was said*

I'm still going to kick his ass. If Erian is fine with KP as the battleground, then KP it is. We'll meet on the Wizard quad. Since this is about skill, Tier 1 +2 gear max. Two third parties will record the encounter, one targeting Slammy and the other targeting me.

Slammy can name the times that work best for him on Saturday and Sunday and we will go from there.

The Keepers of the Circle are certainly open to agreed-upon conflict. Indeed, there are two hexes North and East of Keeper's Pass claimed by the Ring of Gold. I'm happy to offer up one of those as an Arena--anyone wanting to brawl can step in there and blow off steam any time without any question from me (so long as you stay out of the tower, of course).

I am, however, still waiting for confirmation from Slammy that he intends to abide by our request to cease aggression inside Keeper's Pass. Failure to do so will require further conversations with broader potential impacts.

Goblin Squad Member

Everyone should have been able to target him with tab after the second attack. Yet according to the report of a self-healer earlier in thread, he was staying white.

You kids are focused on targeting exploits. Yet his video shows him flagging, but it's not turning him red to others. That's the bug fix priority in my opinion.

Goblinworks Lead Game Designer

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On watching the video it looks like no one was getting Opportunity for movement, just using feats/items/etc. That is obviously a bug. If anyone else runs into that sort of situation please let us know as this could be very difficult to track down.

Goblin Squad Member

Lee Hammock wrote:
On watching the video it looks like no one was getting Opportunity for movement, just using feats/items/etc. That is obviously a bug. If anyone else runs into that sort of situation please let us know as this could be very difficult to track down.

So everyone was exploiting?!

Well, I guess in a witch hunt the one thing no one expects is the Inquisition :)


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NO ONE EXPECTS THE—oh. You just kinda already said the thing.
*Shuffles out*

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
-Aet- Charlie wrote:


I understand that might not be your stance, I just wanted to clarify what mine was.
I respect your stance, but disagree with it.

Careful, guys, this language is straying perilously close to "I disagree with what you said."


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From initial testing, we are now considering adjusting the hitbox size (this will likely become even MORE important when small PCs are a thing, for obvious reasons) and dealing with the issue that tracking a moving target to click it seems to be triggering the "mouse click to look/turn" rather than the "mouse click to target" which is a bug. This doesn't happen every time, but it happens often enough to be annoying.

Other potential issue here, as I see it: flagging for opportunity appears broken in the video - I don't just mean on Slammy. A LOT of people were moving around at faster than a walking pace without triggering opportunity. This does point to an issue. It does not point to cheating on the part of a single individual.

Finally, flagging for PvP: I'd love to know if he was jumping into a preexisting pvp situation or not. It APPEARS like he starts off jumping people who are already flagged for PvP, then moves on to chasing people down who weren't flagged, at which point he finally did flag. But this is supposition on my part. I can only see things from his view point, and thus far I've not had a lot of luck reproducing this issue as described. Am I missing something here?

Anyway, I just wanted to post here to mention that we are looking into it, and to share our initial findings. If there are deeper issues, it's going to require more testing to find them, which is why that's on my docket for the rest of the day.

Goblin Squad Member

-Aet- Charlie wrote:
Lee Hammock wrote:
On watching the video it looks like no one was getting Opportunity for movement, just using feats/items/etc. That is obviously a bug. If anyone else runs into that sort of situation please let us know as this could be very difficult to track down.
So everyone was exploiting?!
Robert Hodgson wrote:
It does not point to cheating...

I would suggest that there is likely something Slammy knows about fighting at the edge of a hex that interferes with Opportunity. If he's not worried about trying to capitalize on others' Opportunity, it wouldn't matter to him if they also received the benefit of the bug.

Goblin Squad Member

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I found another of Sammy's PVP videos. This time he's singing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TXhp7-fMvSk


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I need more than "Everyone is benefiting from an issue, but he's doing better than anyone else" to assume a person is exploiting. Especially since the first portion of the video takes place next to a tower, not next to the hex border.

Goblin Squad Member

Robert Hodgson wrote:
I need more than "Everyone is benefiting from an issue, but he's doing better than anyone else" to assume a person is exploiting.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I'm just speculating in the hopes that enough people will have ideas to test that we can uncover what's actually happening - well, that, and resisting the suggestion that your finding of "not guilty" means he's innocent.


I found no one guilty, nor innocent. That's Customer Service. I run QA. I care about fixing the underlying issues with the game, not the players. :D

Goblin Squad Member

Robert Hodgson wrote:
I care about fixing the underlying issues with the game...

Me too. I'm just not skilled or experienced at trying to find exploitable bugs in video games - it's just not something I've ever wanted to do...

Goblin Squad Member

Ryan Dancey wrote:

The intnent of the design is that wherever Thornguard are, "murder" should result in swift justice to the killer, and criminals should be dealt with before they can act. The current conditions in the game don't reflect that design but that is temporary.

The intent of the design is that you craft from the vault not from your inventory. Likewise, crafting from inventory is temporary.

That is good news.

Apart from the inconvenience and PvP downsides of crafting using the inventory there is also a potential exploit:

You can start a long craft like armor and then queue up a whole batch of other stuff behind it in your home town and then run to your destination market with a full load and potentially have way more refined and crafted goods than you could possibly carry appear magically in your inventory. Once husks are in this would also provide a way to safely transport expensive crafted items with minimal risk.

Goblin Squad Member

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Robert Hodgson wrote:
I found no one guilty, nor innocent. That's Customer Service. I run QA. I care about fixing the underlying issues with the game, not the players. :D

Thank you for the replies, the investigations, and the way the results were presented.

I thought your explanation was pretty straight forward:

Robert Hodgson wrote:
It does not point to cheating on the part of a single individual.

Emphasis mine.

If further digging does point towards cheating, I hope you post again with the findings. I think everyone in this thread would appreciate the information.


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-Aet- Charlie wrote:
Robert Hodgson wrote:
I found no one guilty, nor innocent. That's Customer Service. I run QA. I care about fixing the underlying issues with the game, not the players. :D

Thank you for the replies, the investigations, and the way the results were presented.

I thought your explanation was pretty straight forward:

Robert Hodgson wrote:
It does not point to cheating on the part of a single individual.

Emphasis mine.

If further digging does point towards cheating, I hope you post again with the findings. I think everyone in this thread would appreciate the information.

Ditto.

In the mean time, for future reference, this.

Dont cheat.

If you find some condition, combination of actions, location, or feature that is broken or provides you an advantage you should not have due to a bug, don't do that thing. Report it.

'nough said.

Goblin Squad Member

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I've killed a lot of goblins. Hours of it. All mostly with a longbow - basic strike and basic exploit. And I have a pattern after so many thousands of kills. Some days my exploit never kills in one shot - other days it *always* kills in one shot. Tonight is a night where it is never seeming to kill.

After reading this thread I noticed that, tonight, when they are running after me, they loose the opportunity icon - and so the exploit doesn't kill.

In case it helps the debugging, when the issue comes up for me, it stays until the next day. And it's happening now. If that helps at all, find "Red", my longbowman, and see the bug in action.


Somebody needs to tell those goblins to stop cheating! :p

Goblin Squad Member

Also, just now someone ran in front of me and pulled a goblin across my window. It was running after the other character - didn't have an opportunity icon (and it should have, no?) - and I couldn't click on it to save my life; the goblin really seemed to be unclickable - six or seven times I tried to click on the little bastard. Until it gave up and ran back; then I could click on it with no trouble *and* it had the opportunity icon on it all the way back to it's starting position.

It might all be coincidence but I offer it in case it helps.

Goblin Squad Member

Junior Halfling wrote:

Also, just now someone ran in front of me and pulled a goblin across my window. It was running after the other character - didn't have an opportunity icon (and it should have, no?) - and I couldn't click on it to save my life; the goblin really seemed to be unclickable - six or seven times I tried to click on the little bastard. Until it gave up and ran back; then I could click on it with no trouble *and* it had the opportunity icon on it all the way back to it's starting position.

It might all be coincidence but I offer it in case it helps.

I thought they were magically invulnerable running back to the starting position ?

Goblin Squad Member

They might be after Thu's patch - but I've never had any trouble targeting and damaging mobs as they run back.

Goblin Squad Member

A mob running back to its start location can, after several seconds, drop out of combat mode and lose the opportunity flag. A player character will also drop from combat mode and lose the opportunity flag at the same time it loses the combat stance/hides weapons, etc.

@Neadenil - they aren't invulnerable - they can be engaged. Use a fast attack to get them back into combat mode then an exploit to take advantage of the new opportunity flag.

Goblin Squad Member

Junior Halfling wrote:

I've killed a lot of goblins. Hours of it. All mostly with a longbow - basic strike and basic exploit. And I have a pattern after so many thousands of kills. Some days my exploit never kills in one shot - other days it *always* kills in one shot. Tonight is a night where it is never seeming to kill.

After reading this thread I noticed that, tonight, when they are running after me, they loose the opportunity icon - and so the exploit doesn't kill.

In case it helps the debugging, when the issue comes up for me, it stays until the next day. And it's happening now. If that helps at all, find "Red", my longbowman, and see the bug in action.

I had failure of the normal Opportunity behaviour tonight too. I would aggro a group and the mobs running to me would not have opportunity until I damaged them or until they damaged me (range attack on me, or melee attack on me then chase me after I evade). I submitted a bug report. I have never seen that happen with opportunity before. When I entered a new hex, opportunity reverted back to the way it should.

Goblin Squad Member

Robert Hodgson wrote:
From initial testing, we are now considering adjusting the hitbox size (this will likely become even MORE important when small PCs are a thing, for obvious reasons)

Thanks for chiming in, Robert, but that quote has me scared. Are you implying here that "Click to target a player" is the way we will have to target Players, for the foreseeable future?

Please tell me that there are better ways of targeting Players in the making, the least of which is simply being able to cycle through Players with a keyboard command.

This is a glaring issue that is talked about a lot, yet the devs keep very silent about it.


Then allow me to elaborate!

No, I'm not implying that it's "the" way you will have to target players. That's silly, why would we do that? I'm saying it's a way you CAN target players. As such, it needs to be not broken.

There are already other ways of targeting players. Tab targeting for instance. We're looking at improving those as well (for instance, removing harvest nodes from the tab list).

We don't always respond to every thing on the forums for a variety of reasons, not the least of which because doing so would be a full time job that would prevent us from actually making a game. Also, sometimes we don't respond to things because we're still figuring out how to resolve an issue, and don't want to promise or imply a time-frame that we can't hold to. Before you say that no one would take such a response as an implication, I'll point out that you thought fixing one feature, above, implied removing other features. It's hard to predict how people will take these things.

Goblin Squad Member

They've also said they want us to move to Goblinworks and are doing so themselves, so frankly, any post at all from a Developer here should be considered a bonus.

Goblin Squad Member

Slammy you are my hero!

Goblin Squad Member

Slammy will be my hero* when he answers the question as to whether Bows, as a member of a Lawful settlement on friendly terms with the Keepers, will abide by our laws while in our settlement, or if instead flaunt the laws of Keeper's Pass to follow his own whims.

*Because it drives my chosen fun in the game, politics.


KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:

Slammy will be my hero* when he answers the question as to whether Bows, as a member of a Lawful settlement on friendly terms with the Keepers, will abide by our laws while in our settlement, or if instead flaunt the laws of Keeper's Pass to follow his own whims.

*Because it drives my chosen fun in the game, politics.

A hero to some, a witch to others.

Goblin Squad Member

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Slammy wrote:
A hero to some, a witch to others.

A slam-witch?

Goblin Squad Member

I suppose it will have to be phrased differently...any continued aggression in Keeper's Pass is unacceptable. Such will be escalated to Golgothan leadership to address as they see fit. It will not speak well of their Lawful intent if they refuse to deal with a rogue member violating an acknowledged friendly settlement's laws, considerably so when we've made every overture to accommodate your desire for combat.


KotC - Erian El'ranelen wrote:
I suppose it will have to be phrased differently...any continued aggression in Keeper's Pass is unacceptable. Such will be escalated to Golgothan leadership to address as they see fit. It will not speak well of their Lawful intent if they refuse to deal with a rogue member violating an acknowledged friendly settlement's laws, considerably so when we've made every overture to accommodate your desire for combat.

Top notch bud, my spear is ready.

Goblin Squad Member

To stand in defense of the laws of your friends in Keeper's Pass? That is certainly good to hear. We look forward to continued good relations with Golgotha then.

Goblin Squad Member

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Robert Hodgson wrote:

Then allow me to elaborate!

No, I'm not implying that it's "the" way you will have to target players. That's silly, why would we do that? I'm saying it's a way you CAN target players. As such, it needs to be not broken.

There are already other ways of targeting players. Tab targeting for instance. We're looking at improving those as well (for instance, removing harvest nodes from the tab list).

We don't always respond to every thing on the forums for a variety of reasons, not the least of which because doing so would be a full time job that would prevent us from actually making a game. Also, sometimes we don't respond to things because we're still figuring out how to resolve an issue, and don't want to promise or imply a time-frame that we can't hold to. Before you say that no one would take such a response as an implication, I'll point out that you thought fixing one feature, above, implied removing other features. It's hard to predict how people will take these things.

Thanks, Robert, I am at peace now. Well, for now. :) I appreciate your answer.

I could have formulated my question less panicky and assumptuous (is that a word?) so sorry about that. I guess it is my reaction to feeling somewhat left in the dark about features that are so crucial.

Tbh, I think there is too little communication going on between GW-officals and us, in this phase in the development of the game. More people are coming to play and the game is in flux constantly.

I think there can never be too much official response(even if repeating themselves), though I agree it can sometimes backfire and cause confusion too. When Bonny was hired, I was expecting that she would take on the task of being the spokesperson that would take our concerns back and forth,together with your answers, even if those answers would be "I asked the guys and there is no ETA, but they are working on it". Tbh, I was expecting that she would have at least have a 1000 posts by now. My guess is that she has been swamped with Customer Service tasks.

I can see how browsing these forums constantly would be a huge timesink for a developer. So I figured this was a task for a Community-manager, since this is how I have seen it work on other alpha/beta forums(Moorgard, to name one).

IN any way, I think the amount of responses from an "official" from GW should be ramped up, now that the population is growing.

In the first 1.5 years there were a lot more official responses from GW. This has died down, due to most things being said already, crunchtime and a veteran community that has been reading up for 2 years, and has been helping eachother and the occasional newbie that drifts by.

This is changing, come EE, and I think it is time for GW (Bonny?) to start repeating stuff and constantly post Tips, to-do's, guides and most importantly, Clarifications and Intentions on what is being worked on/planned. Or at least take on every chance to respond to Questions that are born from confusion. Or respond to posts that may cause more confusion.

This is a difficult game, it is not easy to read up on it due to the huge amount of information in so many formats that is out there.

Goblin Squad Member

This topic pleases me.

Goblin Squad Member

And me as well, but perhaps for different reasons.


this guy is the real hero.

Goblin Squad Member

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I'm sure Slammy wasn't hacking, and it was probably fully unintentional rather than deliberate bug abuse. That said, bragging about a "victory" and mocking those who "lost" to him for complaining, even after admitting it was probably a glitch, is pretty weak form. That's the sort of behavior I saw a lot in the Runescape community.

Trash-talking and bragging have their place in any PvP game, but good braggarts make sure their brags aren't bogus before boasting 'bout battles. ;)

There is one simple rule in PVP, especially after loot drop is in. Victory = victory. While win conditions may be debateable depending on measure used attacking the means of achieving victory after someone wins by every semi-meaningful measure is generally something done by sore losers. "Fighting honorably" is code word for failing to employ clever tactics by enemies who will never be satisfied the conditions were honorable unless you let them win.

By now three things are obvious.

1. Slammy won.
2. Slammy isn't in trouble.
3. His enemies are very butthurt. (Bonus victory!)

So good job Slammy.

Goblin Squad Member

Andius the Afflicted wrote:
"Fighting honorably" is code word for failing to employ clever tactics by enemies who will never be satisfied the conditions were honorable unless you let them win.

PFO's first fallen Paladin! More evidence that PFO is rooted firmly in the Pathfinder tabletop experience.

Goblin Squad Member

Gaskon wrote:
PFO's first fallen Paladin!

He was never a Paladin...

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
Gaskon wrote:
PFO's first fallen Paladin!
He was never a Paladin...

At best Andius was a crusader before this huge "fall" everyone keeps saying occurred.

Crusaders are problematic, because while they are idealistic they can often take subjective moral offense to situations others find trivial.

Social justice warriors can often fall into a trap where it becomes problematic for them to look at their own views objectively and self correct. They have a huge problem being wrong.

Give me a selfish pragmatic any day. At least I build a pattern to judge whether they are trustworthy or not. Fanatics on the other hand are unpredictable wild cards.

Goblin Squad Member

Being zealous without becoming a zealot is a tricky thing sometimes, but it's always a worthwhile endeavor.

Goblin Squad Member

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Nihimon wrote:
Being zealous without becoming a zealot is a tricky thing sometimes, but it's always a worthwhile endeavor.

I tried to disprove this by looking up each individual term involved. I got to the root word Zeal and it turns out it has no inherent negative connotations.

zeal
zēl
noun
great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.

You win this time, Scruffins!

Goblin Squad Member

Its a fine line thats for sure.

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