A wizard either has slots open or prepared spells. That is it.
You are assuming sleep.
Which is effectively 8 hours of buffing.
the mythic fighter never sleeps or eats or breathes. It's actually the wizard who is likely to be caught napping.
Sleeping is 8 hours of buffing. That made me laugh.
You have forgotten about arcane school abilities that replenish regardless of sleep.
(most of which are rather nonlethal)
it would appear that rogar has hopped in to spark a debate without reading the existing work being put towards one right now! perhaps we should give him some time to catch up and contribute more meaningfully to the discussion at hand.
When did anybody say something about no pre-buffs? You have a week to prepare, and if you want to break WBL it has to happen then.
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Technically, the Ioun stone gives you 'regeneration' as the ring of regen, which will keep you from losing body parts, but won't keep you from dying. You'd have to gain the regeneration quality from the Universal Rules (with at least some way to overcome it, unless you're the Tarrasque) to prevent death. Probably doable, but not as easy as an Ioun stone .
Miracle ignores planar boundaries. Context wise, Forbiddance looks like a planar boundary, though I suppose it's not vitally important.
I know I've mentioned it a few times, but I don't think I echoed it in my last build post. If simulacra are allowed, each of them will have some sort of spellbane active, each of which will include Spellbanes. I will also bring a means of getting it on myself (scrolls, number not yet known)
When I teleport right next to you, assuming my spellbane is not negated by something else, both Spellbanes deactivate. I could then get you with Greater Dispel.
I hadn't been using sharesister either, as I assumed you hadn't... It's just a little bit more duration on both of our spells, really (as we both can just as easily get it from sims forever)
With sharesister, my CL becomes 32 (24+4 bead+1 Ioun+3 sharesister). That's only for gr. invis, haste, greater teleport, and enlarge person (and the nebulous things that are in the simulacrum spots)
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I've been operating under the assumption that the wizard removes his need to sleep (Keep the Watch or similar)
(most of which are rather nonlethal)
it would appear that rogar has hopped in to spark a debate without reading the existing work being put towards one right now! perhaps we should give him some time to catch up and contribute more meaningfully to the discussion at hand.
Most of which is non lethal. Some of which can give you the space needed to overcome.
Rogar did hop in. Silly Rogar. But Rogar was reading the posts, and saw something to chime in on.
When did anybody say something about no pre-buffs?
Multiple ×s in the first 2 pages of thread.
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I just want to put this out there.
I am now convinced that not every wizard 20 will beat every fighter 20 MT 10 out there in an arena style contest.
I think most wizards will beat most fighters but there is clearly some fighter builds that require very specific things to deal with them
Sim armies change things and I think a wizards sim army will be bigger given equal time to make them but both will be so huge that the only part of the character that will matter is the creation of sims.
I think that almost any wizard can can force a draw with mind blank and invis. The fighter can do the same. The only way this contest comes to a head is if one side lets the other find them. I am not sure the fighter can be preped enough to let the wizard find him.
So far I am having trouble prepping enough to let the fighter find me.
What I've learned from this thread is that I'm not actually competing with a Fighter. I'm competing with a Legendary Item. You could swap the Fighter levels for Commoner levels and the result would be the same. Which really says everything you need to know about the Fighter class.
Warrior 20, maybe.
I question whether a 20/10 commoner could actually hit the wizard hard enough to one-shot him. Only reaching +10 BAB screws up all sorts of things.
Anzyr, your original answer to the OP's question (how many mythic tiers does it take for a fighter to overcome a wizard) was
More mythic levels then presently exist. That have abilities that would actually change the dimension of the fight. Which will never be printed for Fighters ever, especially if things like Crane Wing get nerfed.
I'm completely serious about this. Casters don't even roll dice at the highest level of play.
If the same tactics work for a commoner, it still provides a means for a fighter to do the same.
My present kill tactics *do* require Fighter support, more or less. The number of feats is really nice for an archer type.
...
The legendary item gives CL = 2 x Mythic Tier. My effective Mythic Tier is 12 via Mythic Paragon.
Youre right about Divine Source (as we've agreed on it, anyway), so only Enlarge Person, Greater Teleport, and Haste are 32.
Vanishing Trick (greater invis) is also 2 x Mythic Tier, so it is as well.
But apparently Ive been lowballing because Ive missed the robe, extra stone and deathknell. Good to know I have an extra +3 if needed... that would push Divine Source up to 31 (20+sharesister+bead+ioun+ 3 extra)
You could still beat it with the right combo, though the others are up at 35
...
As for resolving invisible + mindblank dilemma, that is why I am immortal, don't need to eat/drink/breath/sleep, and have a 30 ft radius of see anything that is invisible from a non-divination based source.
I suppose I could use some sort of invisibility purge tactic too, though that could be suppressed probably.
My default tactic if nothing is visible is to meander randomly through the arena until the opponent is found, using greater teleport and picking random distances up/down/horizontally until either I stumble upon something with luck or a slip up is made.
With infinite time and infinite space, I don't know if this is mathematically guaranteed probability eventually or not, and frankly I don't want to think about infinities too hard for this.
I can see the entire infinity of the arena up and down --- just re-read M. Eagle eyes, and that takes an expense of mythic power. So I cant do it all the time, darn it. Still, if I'm not using my mythic power for attacking/defending, I might as well use it to see if someone slipped at random intervals.
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I cant open up with a Mage's Disjunction, as much as I would love to. I already used my real standard action to Wish in, and my bonus extra actions cant be used to cast spells (which SLAs count as).
That reminds me, contingent action cant be used to cast spells. Much to my chagrin, I didn't bother checking the spell until now.
If sims were allowed, this *would* probably be the opening tactic. I'd have a sim wish port itself and another right on top of you, and have the second with a readied action to Mage's Disjunction. If you respond to those before they can get anything out (your actions for the round would be spent) I would then use my third to wish port next to you again and lay down a Mage's Disjunction and smack you with a standard attack... you might be able to concoct a defense with your own sims though, so this is probably moot.
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I also enjoy the back and forth. I hope I don't come off as too pushy on my ideas.
Umm. Question: How would you interpret a Magic Jar by the Mythic Fighter applied to a simulacrum of a Guardian Dragon?
Same question, but with Drakainia trick from Anzyr.
Assume, for the sake of argument, that the bow is still operable.
Yeesh, even I don't like where this is going.
Also, forgot that the Tarrasque is unique in Paizo material. Thus it is out of the running.
I would not allow a Magic Jar on a Simulacrum, because the Simulacrum is an illusory double with no free will of its own. I take that to mean it does not have a soul.
I would not allow a Magic Jar on a Simulacrum, because the Simulacrum is an illusory double with no free will of its own. I take that to mean it does not have a soul.
I would because RAW that works.
You think it's RAW for an illusion with no free will to have a soul? o_0
You think it's RAW for an illusion with no free will to have a soul? o_0
Since RAW it is partially real... in one word: Yes.
Well…that seems crazy to me, but, as with the issue of whether mythic monsters are fair game for a non-mythic wizard (even more so, in my mind, as you appear to be completely going against RAW here, not just against the guidelines of the contest), this would require GM adjudication.
If, hypothetically, a GM were to agree with my interpretation, would you consider them to be non-neutral and refuse to play ball, or would you accept the ruling?
You think it's RAW for an illusion with no free will to have a soul? o_0
i think it's RAW that magic jar doesn't actually have to replace a soul nor the target have a body so long as it is target-able by the spell.
Well…that seems crazy to me, but, as with the issue of whether mythic monsters are fair game for a non-mythic wizard (even more so, in my mind, as you appear to be completely going against RAW here, not just against the guidelines of the contest), this would require GM adjudication.
If, hypothetically, a GM were to agree with my interpretation, would you consider them to be non-neutral and refuse to play ball, or would you accept the ruling?
That's non-neutral. Mythic monsters are published by Paizo and thus are valid targets for Simualcrum assuming we are using all Paizo material. Also the question wasn't whether the Wizard could or couldn't use Mythic material. The question was how many divine ranks it would take to beat a non-mythic Wizard. My Wizard as you can see is non-mythic despite taking advantage of the mythic rules. Also, RAW the mythic ranks of the simulacrums should stay the same as Mythic Ranks are not HD dependent. I was willing to accept the reduction for this challenge, but felt it should be noted.
A spell can target a creature but have no effect, so the conclusion you draw does not follow from your premise.
In fact, not having a body obviates the entire utility of trying to possess the body of the target.
Simulacra are nebulous in that it might be the case that a bound elemental of some nature is acting as the motive soul in the physical body (as would be the case in golems) While golems have SR = inf, and magic jar would fail against them, Simulacra have no similar protection. Not having actual guidance on how it works, we cant assume one way or another. -- We actually do have guidance in the case of outsiders, though.
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I think I raised the first concern about the Drakainia actually. Its perfectly legal to use, I just had compunction against the wizard dipping his toe into mythic content.
I'm fine with him using it, but would be curious, should he be undefeatable, whether the same would be true with no mythic use whatsoever.
The Harbinger Daemon may be an invalid target for Magic Jar though.
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I tried to circumvent the possible simulacrum problem with the extra question about the Drakainia... The spawning ability (special ability, definitely not dependent on CL)can create a for reals guardian dragon if the Drakainia's CON score reaches 52 (this would give an allowable CR of 24, enough for the dragon). All I would need to do would be get the simulacrum, hand it my headband of mental perfection, and let the critter keep popping out guardian dragons until one of them had a decent mutation. (really, any of them but the 10% chance of failure are fine)
The Guardian Dragon is nice because of the 1000 ft radius Aura of Security
That takes a lot of the randomness out of my search in the case of a mindblanked/invisible opponent, and frees up a surprising number of mythic abilities (immunity to sleep - don't need sleepless, blind-sight 120 ft -> don't need mythic sight or mythic blind fight)
Would I keep the extra pool of Mythic Power? It is an always on thing, its just that normally you wouldn't have anything to spend it on (not being able to use non constant EX, SU, Spells or SLAs from the creature your Magic Jar'd into)
A spell can target a creature but have no effect, so the conclusion you draw does not follow from your premise.
In fact, not having a body obviates the entire utility of trying to possess the body of the target.
Simulacra are nebulous in that it might be the case that a bound elemental of some nature is acting as the motive soul in the physical body (as would be the case in golems) While golems have SR = inf, and magic jar would fail against them, Simulacra have no similar protection. Not having actual guidance on how it works, we cant assume one way or another. -- We actually do have guidance in the case of outsiders, though.
but RAW magic jar doesn't not have an effect when you target a target-able creature and it doesn't have a soul. most of magic jar is fluff and isn't actually the mechanics of it.
How can you read through an ability and arbitrarily decide what is fluff and what is mechanical ?
It would be one thing if the discussion of body/soul could have no impact on the outcome. Unfortunately, the wording of the first paragraph is pretty clear about the events, and outsiders complicate the matter.
If we can try and claim descriptions to be in error (arbitrarily assigning Fluff v. Mechanical) when other mechanical parts are in disagreement, I'll go and take another look at globe of invulnerability. Emanations are pretty clear in how they work , despite the spell's first line of ?flavor? text.
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@ Mathius, yeah, its pretty telling that the fighter needs 5 extra CR to be able to have a chance to slaughter the wizard like the wizard would slaughter him.
For shooting the bow while a dragon, I've been looking at the Mutation Warrior Archetype. Originaly it was just for Grand Mutagen to boost my stats some more. That left 2 mutations to assign, which were either going into wings/vestigial arms. If I eventually decide on this Magic Jar, wings are unnecessary, and the vestigial arms can hold/fire the bow.
Unfortunately it's low starting DEX is troubling for an archer's attack, and it's size makes 10 ft emanations RAW wonky. Not insurmountable, but I wanted to see if it was even worthwhile to pursue before going down that rabbit hole.
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Made a mistake with Eagle Eyes... need to be a half elf/elf for keen senses. So I'll lose the human bonus feat... not sure which yet, as the dragon matter is still up in the air.
Also, in my iterative updates to feats, I lost the pre-reqs for snap-shot chain, so I'll need to rework that. I had some unnecessary feats in there anyway, and the dragon obviates the need for snap shot as well.
i thought vestigial arms via mutations cant be used to hold/use weapons.
The text:
As long as I'm not getting extra attacks/actions out of it, it'll be fine.
How can you read through an ability and arbitrarily decide what is fluff and what is mechanical ?
It would be one thing if the discussion of body/soul could have no impact on the outcome. Unfortunately, the wording of the first paragraph is pretty clear about the events, and outsiders complicate the matter.
If we can try and claim descriptions to be in error (arbitrarily assigning Fluff v. Mechanical) when other mechanical parts are in disagreement, I'll go and take another look at globe of invulnerability. Emanations are pretty clear in how they work , despite the spell's first line of ?flavor? text.
There is no error. The interaction is merely unusual. Globe says it is immovable so it is. Magic Jar says you end up in the body, so you do. The fact that interacts oddly with Outsiders doesn't change how it works.
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The argument is that it *does* change how it works.
"Magic Jar says you end up in the body"
The body of the outsider, linked inseparably with the soul, ends up in the receptacle. I don't think that is what you're going for, and no part of Magic Jar actually creates a new body.
-- The globe of invulnerability bit was a reminder that arbitrary rule interpretations cut both ways.
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To convince me, it will suffice to present an order of operations described in the spell description that results in the outcome you desire, without relying on the separation of the outsider's body/soul.
If you cant do that, your argument reduces to something along the lines of... Everybody else has always done it this way. That's an appeal to the majority (argumentum ad populum), which pretty classically doesn't mean its true. It might be a fairly universal house rule, but if you cant make it work by the rules, its not RAW.
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Upon re-reading Bandw2's post, I realize he may have been talking about simulacra, not outsiders.
I suppose that particular interpretation is correct: your target doesn't necessarily need a soul, though it results in parts of the magic which do nothing
That however, brings up a second part. Once you are in the magic jar receptacle, how do you sense soulless simulacra? You sense life forces while in the Jar.
However, I'm not convinced that simulacra don't have rudimentary proto-souls (as golems), so I'm not too terribly eager to go that way.
(I misread, because I had given an argument also in support of magic jar applied to simulacra)
I'll go ahead and assume Magic Jar for this, and make some updates to the build. If Eagle Eyes doesn't work when I change to the Dragon (it relies on a racial trait), Ill have to replace that with something else.
By the way, I probably don't auto-win initiative. As it stands I'm not trying to, I just teleport immediately out of the starting area.
N Dual Minded Half-Elf Mutation Warrior Fighter 20 MT 10, Magic Jar into Guardian Dragon.
Str 38 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 6 (alchemical) + 2 (profane) = 57
Dex 13 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 8 (alchemical) + 4 (profane) = 36
Con 30 + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) + 4 (alchemical) = 45
Int ?? + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) - 2 (alchemical) = ??
Wis ?? + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) - 2 (alchemical) = ??
Cha ?? + 5 (Wishes) + 6 (Item) - 2 (alchemical) = ??
Mythic Abilities:
Tier 1 Legendary Item (Undetectable, Foe Biting, Intelligent)
Tier 2 Limitless Range
Tier 3 Vanishing Move
Tier 4 Divine Source (Protection Domain, Luck Domain)
Tier 5 Punishing Blow
Tier 6 Extra Mythic Feat (Weapon Focus)
Tier 7 Divine Source (Magic, Heroism Sub, Construct Sub)
Tier 8 Legendary Item - (spellcasting, teleport, spellcasting)
Tier 9 Extra Mythic Feat(Spellbreaker)
Tier 10 Legendary Item (Unstoppable Strike, Everlasting, spellcasting spellcasting)
Legendary Item Spellcasting (Summoner) : Magic Jar+Alarm, Simulacrum, Simulacrum, Greater Teleport
Mythic Feats:
Tier 1 Dual Path (Champion)
Tier 3 Mythic Paragon
Tier 5 Mythic Spellcasting
Tier 7 Vital Strike
*Tier 6 Weapon Focus (from ability)
Tier 9 Eagle Eyes
*Tier 9 Spellbreaker (from ability)
Regular Feats (21 Total, no more than 10 can be non-combat):
Arcane Strike (pre-req from SLAs)
Deadly Aim
Point-Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Improved Precise Shot
Far Shot
Eagle Eyes (keen senses - may need to lose this if Keen Senses doesn't apply in Magic Jar)
Vital Strike
Improved Vital Strike
Greater Vital Strike
Devastating Strike
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still
Disruptive
Spellbreaker
Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magical Arms and Armor
Items:
+5 Dispelling Burst Cyclonic Distance Adaptive Composite Longbow
Scroll of Wish
Scroll of Spellbane
Ring of Invisibility
Headband of perfect mental stats
Belt of perfect physical stats
Wings of Flying
Greater Bracers of Archery
Bead of Karma
+1 CL Ioun Stone
???? more
As written, I have an attack bonus of
+20 (BAB) + 13 (DEX) + 4 (Weapon Training) + 5 (enh) + 2 (invisible) + 2 (competence from bracers) = 46
This is made against flat-footed Touch AC with an expenditure of 1 MP as a free action (Unstoppable Strike). In reality, this will probably be 2 MP to also overcome Deflection bonus from Nereid's Grace.
Blindsight at 120 ft means I no longer need to be near you to overcome mirror image. Now, I can attack you safely from outside of virtually all of your protections (forbiddance, and maybe invisibilty purge, will still be a factor - but my protections against it will likely work)
I am Gargantuan size, so the bow does a base damage of 1d8 (Med) -> 2d6(large) -> 3d6(huge) -> 4d6 (gargantuan).
Greater Vital strike means I roll 16d6 on a standard action attack.
Mythic Vital Strike multiplies the base damage modifier by the number of weapon dice rolled (16)
My base damage modifier is : 26 (STR) + 4 (weapon train) + 6 (devastating strike) + 4 (w. spec and gr w spec) + 5 (enh) + 1 (comp - gr bracers) = 46.
That's not using any additional spells, or deadly aim or arcane strike.
46 * 16 = 736. I can double this with Foe Biting to 1472.
If you convince me that higher is necessary to be totally secure in defeating the opponent, then higher I can go. Gravity Bow will increase the multiplier from 16 to 24, for instance.
--- being gargantuan means I might peak out of 10 ft radius emanations, so I don't know if my protections are sure fire. Ill look closer at this if need be.
Frodo, up until the introduction of the dragon, I needed to literally be up and in the face of the caster to overcome mirror image, presumably in enough counter magic that my invisibility fell.
While I could still do that, it is no longer necessary... but to be fair to Mathius, that wasn't clear in my posts before.
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Upon further review in the Polymorph section, Im inclined to believe that Eagle Eyes does not carry over. Ill need to switch out a mythic feat and regular feat (it was already much less attractive than I thought because of it taking a swift and MP to activate for the worthwhile function)
It doesn't do anything really at the moment strategy wise, so Ill look into changing it as we continue.
How can you read through an ability and arbitrarily decide what is fluff and what is mechanical ?
It would be one thing if the discussion of body/soul could have no impact on the outcome. Unfortunately, the wording of the first paragraph is pretty clear about the events, and outsiders complicate the matter.
If we can try and claim descriptions to be in error (arbitrarily assigning Fluff v. Mechanical) when other mechanical parts are in disagreement, I'll go and take another look at globe of invulnerability. Emanations are pretty clear in how they work , despite the spell's first line of ?flavor? text.
because mechanically there isn't a soul, there are just stat blocks.
Is that serious, Bandw2? If its sarcasm, I suppose the following wasn't necessary...
A stat block or numerical bonus in the rulebooks only have meaning because other parts of the rulebook use words to describe their meaning. A spell only has an effect based on the text that is presented in its description. A creature is affected by a given spell based on what is presented in the spell description and how those rules (taken as an interacting whole across all rulebooks) interact with the described abilities of the creature at hand.
In a particular creature's statblock, the creature is given a type (outsider, say). The creature inherits all aspects of that type unless exceptions are noted. In the outsider type, in the traits section, the outsider is ascribed a soul that is linked, inexorably, with its body. That is actually mechanically how outsiders work.
The Magic Jar spell can target the outsider, but it does not have the capability of splitting the outsider's body and soul apart: there is no specific rule calling out the exception.
One cannot divorce sections of interacting rules when it is convenient, arbitrarily indicating portions as fluff.
In the general case, it doesn't matter that the outsider has no dual-nature, so it appears to be a totally non-mechanical feature almost all the time. Magic Jar, however, uses a particular phrasing that interacts with this unique aspect of outsiders.
Was it intended that Magic Jar doesn't work? I don't know. Is that the way the rules are written? I have yet to see somebody issue a plausible argument that it does work.
Is that serious, Bandw2? If its sarcasm, I suppose the following wasn't necessary...
A stat block or numerical bonus in the rulebooks only have meaning because other parts of the rulebook use words to describe their meaning. A spell only has an effect based on the text that is presented in its description. A creature is affected by a given spell based on what is presented in the spell description and how those rules (taken as an interacting whole across all rulebooks) interact with the described abilities of the creature at hand.
In a particular creature's statblock, the creature is given a type (outsider, say). The creature inherits all aspects of that type unless exceptions are noted. In the outsider type, in the traits section, the outsider is ascribed a soul that is linked, inexorably, with its body. That is actually mechanically how outsiders work.
The Magic Jar spell can target the outsider, but it does not have the capability of splitting the outsider's body and soul apart: there is no specific rule calling out the exception.
One cannot divorce sections of interacting rules when it is convenient, arbitrarily indicating portions as fluff.
In the general case, it doesn't matter that the outsider has no dual-nature, so it appears to be a totally non-mechanical feature almost all the time. Magic Jar, however, uses a particular phrasing that interacts with this unique aspect of outsiders.
Was it intended that Magic Jar doesn't work? I don't know. Is that the way the rules are written? I have yet to see somebody issue a plausible argument that it does work.
It says you end up in the body, so evidently it can split outsiders. Since that is what it does with no exception included for outsiders.
I told everyone up a few posts that I will be convinced that your side is correct if you will describe how the Magic Jar actually does what you claim.
Note, that is not asking you to repeat your desired outcome as though it is factual. That's just going to keep going in circles.
I've presented my argument, and explicitly told you how you may convert me to your side. If you are certain you are correct, it should be straightforward to do as I ask.
In reply to Anzyr, specifically: sure, you end up in the body. Which also happens to be in the Magic Jar receptacle, because the outsider's soul was forced there (see - how Magic Jar works).
What did this accomplish?
Here's what you are missing: If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar.
So the outsider's life force (not soul) is one place and I am in the body. So yes it really is as simple as I make it out to be.
Is that serious, Bandw2? If its sarcasm, I suppose the following wasn't necessary...
A stat block or numerical bonus in the rulebooks only have meaning because other parts of the rulebook use words to describe their meaning. A spell only has an effect based on the text that is presented in its description. A creature is affected by a given spell based on what is presented in the spell description and how those rules (taken as an interacting whole across all rulebooks) interact with the described abilities of the creature at hand.
In a particular creature's statblock, the creature is given a type (outsider, say). The creature inherits all aspects of that type unless exceptions are noted. In the outsider type, in the traits section, the outsider is ascribed a soul that is linked, inexorably, with its body. That is actually mechanically how outsiders work.
The Magic Jar spell can target the outsider, but it does not have the capability of splitting the outsider's body and soul apart: there is no specific rule calling out the exception.
One cannot divorce sections of interacting rules when it is convenient, arbitrarily indicating portions as fluff.
In the general case, it doesn't matter that the outsider has no dual-nature, so it appears to be a totally non-mechanical feature almost all the time. Magic Jar, however, uses a particular phrasing that interacts with this unique aspect of outsiders.
Was it intended that Magic Jar doesn't work? I don't know. Is that the way the rules are written? I have yet to see somebody issue a plausible argument that it does work.
it can do all those things because once again there isn't anything actually saying that i cannot use magic jar on it because it's body and soul are inseparable. AKA it's stat block says it's a valid target, so then you end up in it's body like it says and the outsiders soul ends up in the jar.
because the rules do not give an alternative, no other option happens. it doesn't say that it fails, and the spell is wasted. so the spell description is what happens, you have to convince me that another outcome happens, and what said outcome is. if you cannot give one that is supported by text, then you have to concede at least to not have a better solution.
also, mechanics and fluff are completely separate. i like to make full attacks, single well timed attacks for instance, regardless of what the book says.
Here is the text of Magic Jar for reference.
While in the magic jar, you can sense and attack any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more HD between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
You could choose to take over either a stronger or a weaker creature, but which particular stronger or weaker creature you attempt to possess is determined randomly.
Attempting to possess a body is a full-round action. It is blocked by protection from evil or a similar ward. You possess the body and force the creature's soul into the magic jar unless the subject succeeds on a Will save. Failure to take over the host leaves your life force in the magic jar, and the target automatically succeeds on further saving throws if you attempt to possess its body again.
If you are successful, your life force occupies the host body, and the host's life force is imprisoned in the magic jar. You keep your Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, level, class, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, alignment, and mental abilities. The body retains its Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, hit points, natural abilities, and automatic abilities. A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal. You can't choose to activate the body's extraordinary or supernatural abilities. The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body.
As a standard action, you can shift freely from a host to the magic jar if within range, sending the trapped soul back to its body. The spell ends when you shift from the jar to your own body.
If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.
If the spell ends while you are in the magic jar, you return to your body (or die if your body is out of range or destroyed). If the spell ends while you are in a host, you return to your body (or die, if it is out of range of your current position), and the soul in the magic jar returns to its body (or dies if it is out of range). Destroying the receptacle ends the spell, and the spell can be dispelled at either the magic jar or the host's location.
Let's go through line by line to see what happens.
"By casting magic jar, you place your soul in a gem or large crystal (known as the magic jar), leaving your body lifeless."
- Ok, no problems here. First thing that happens, you cast your soul into the receptacle.
"Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar."
- As you attempt to take control of the nearby outsider, you force its soul (and therefore body) into the gem. Let's go ahead and assume you are possessing the body/soul at this point, though I don't know if all GMs would be down with even getting thus far.
"You may move back to the jar (thereby returning the trapped soul to its body) and attempt to possess another body."
- Because you moved back into the jar (willingly or not) the trapped soul (and body!) are released -- or imprisoned until the receptacle spell ends. Technically there is no part of the spell that excludes the possibility of more than one soul occupying it at the same time, except for the assumption that the body never gets forced into the receptacle in the first place
"The spell ends when you send your soul back to your own body, leaving the receptacle empty."
- The spell is still working until you actively choose to return to your own body. You can attempt to possess the outsider again, wasting more actions if you desire.
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My reading, lain bare.
But its body and soul are the same thing. It can't be both in the jar and outside, with you inside it.
Then you can attempt to take control of a nearby body, forcing its soul into the magic jar.
The spell later does refer to life force in the same context, yes, which means that as far as RAW is concerned: Soul = life force. Whichever term you use doesn't change what they mean. They are equivalent, and the Outsider cannot be split.
The spell says you can attempt it, but you still haven't addressed how you can actually succeed at it.
Despite no evidence? Ok, Ill repeat my case because you apparently have forgotten it.
Here it the text of Magic Jar for reference.
** spoiler omitted **...
1- no prob
2 -magic jar can only force the soul in the jar, which is a non-physical reaction, meaning the corporeal form is unaffected, as there is nothing in magic jar that states it can also take corporeal forms into the jar.
3 - magic jar returns the soul to it's body, nothing else, so if it is inside the jar, the outsider is not still stuck in the Jar, which i do not think possible in the first place, as magic jar does not have that effect
so, no that isn't supported by any actual reading of magic jar's abilities. the spell is more specific than the general outsider type, so magic jar CAN sever an outsider from it's body, at least temporarily.
@ Anzyr: context of the spell matters. Cuuniyevo spells this out a couple posts ago, so I wont rehash it. So the simplification you mentioned is not quite so simple.
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@ Bandw2:
There is no place in the spell, either, that requires you to treat outsiders any differently than any other creature, so you have to go through and apply the spell as it is described.
2 - Where does it say that it can only force the soul into the jar? Sure, it only says it forces the soul into the jar, but for outsiders body and soul are a singular unit. So it either fails to force the body inside (which is a possible outcome, meaning the targeted spell fails as if it is immune), or both are taken into the jar. (I think I remember making this argument before in reverse. I'm not infallible)
You keep talking about the outsider's soul and body as separate things. Under no circumstances is an exception called out, in the rules, that leads to this. Extrapolating things to make it work, while totally cool in game, is a houserule.
3 - if the body/soul are in the jar (assuming the non-failure outcome), then the magic jar spell has no reason to expel the outsider (despite our general familiarity with how Magic Jar applies to every other creature it targets). That is, again, extrapolation. As written, it could very well be the case that you could, over time, amass a large number of outsiders into a magic jar receptacle.
--- note, Im not really a proponent of that outcome, as it looks like a more effective Binding spell, than... well... Binding. However, this is the least extrapolated outcome if the soul is forced into the receptacle
----Edit: On reflection, it is not necessarily more effective. The outsider, at the least, can take actions to escape. Alternatively, the GM could rule that upon release the outsider expands, either dying or bursting the gem.
@ Anzyr: context of the spell matters. Cuuniyevo spells this out a couple posts ago, so I wont rehash it. So the simplification you mentioned is not quite so simple.
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@ Bandw2:There is no place in the spell, either, that requires you to treat outsiders any differently than any other creature, so you have to go through and apply the spell as it is described.
2 - Where does it say that it can only force the soul into the jar? Sure, it only says it forces the soul into the jar, but for outsiders body and soul are a singular unit. So it either fails to force the body inside (which is a possible outcome, meaning the targeted spell fails as if it is immune), or both are taken into the jar. (I think I remember making this argument before in reverse. I'm not infallible)
You keep talking about the outsider's soul and body as separate things. Under no circumstances is an exception called out, in the rules, that leads to this. Extrapolating things to make it work, while totally cool in game, is a houserule.
3 - if the body/soul are in the jar (assuming the non-failure outcome), then the magic jar spell has no reason to expel the outsider (despite our general familiarity with how Magic Jar applies to every other creature it targets). That is, again, extrapolation. As written, it could very well be the case that you could, over time, amass a large number of outsiders into a magic jar receptacle.
--- note, Im not really a proponent of that outcome, as it looks like a more effective Binding spell, than... well... Binding. However, this is the least extrapolated outcome if the soul is forced into the receptacle
----Edit: On reflection, it is not necessarily more effective. The outsider, at the least, can take actions to escape. Alternatively, the GM could rule that upon release the outsider expands, either dying or bursting the gem.
where does magic jar explain that the body is taken into the jar? since it doesn't there is nothing to suggest, other than outsider info, that that is how magic jar works. the spell is applying it's specific rules to the outsider's general ones, therefore the magic jar severs the outsider from it's body as is the spells description.
the exception to the two is magic jar, which is more specific than outsider info, is calling them out as two separate entities. the spell has power over the actual stat block, or else enlarge person couldn't change your size. A human is always medium, unless enlarge person or other effects are on it. just as an outsider's soul and body are inseparable, unless magic jar or other effects are acting upon it.
To be very clear, I am not trying to be a grinch who's out to steal Wizards' toys; I was unaware of the implications pertaining to Outsiders and Magic Jar until recently. It's not that I want it to be interpreted the way I've stated but rather that I simply don't see how it can be interpreted differently. Your (Anzyr and Bandw2) arguments do not seem well-founded, and I believe that it is not RAW. Since this is the General Discussion forum, and both sides seem adamant that they are correct, I propose that we table the discussion in this thread to get back to the topic at hand. I will make a thread in the Rules Forum to use for FAQ requests (the thread I linked to earlier was not formatted as a FAQ request).
For the purposes of defeating a Mythic Fighter, is it your position that using Magic Jar on Outsiders is essential to victory? If you don't need to use it and believe you can win anyway, then I propose that you shelve that portion of your strategy, even though you believe it to be a valid tactic. If you believe that it absolutely is required to continue, then I'm willing to accept that it is possible a neutral GM would allow it. It doesn't seem RAW to me, but since I'm not actually engaged in the thread's titular fight anyway, I'd prefer it if we went back to discussing theory, tactics and counter-tactics instead of banging our heads over this.
In order for it to be a case of specific rule trumping general rule, it actually has to be specific about the nuance in the interaction.
It is equally valid to claim the counter point, that the outsider trait is more specific than the magic jar text. However, there is no reason to suspect one is more general than the other, because the spell doesn't, as written, prevent the interaction from being resolved merely by applying logic.
I have presented a case for the interaction of two general rules, requiring nothing more than a straight reading of the text, resolving each thing as it comes up as the rules tell me to. Yes, there are things a GM can decide, but, as written, that is really a question of 'does it work at all?', 'is the outsider released on resolution?', 'is the outsider body/soul trapped until the end of the spell?'
Magic Jar doesn't need to tell the reader that the body is not taken into the gem: it just tells you the basic thing that it does. For all targetable creatures other than outsiders, that means a soul is forced into the gem, and you may possess the separate body.
For outsiders, their soul and body are one and the same. Talking about separating them is adding a lot to the text that just isn't there.
The spell has the power described in its description. If it says 'increase size,' then the result is 'increase size.'
If it causes a series of events to occur, then those events occur.
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I am also willing to shelve the topic here. I don't really think it matters for the issue at hand, because the fighter needs to be able to take care of wizards and outsiders, all at the same time... I just cant see a RAW reading that ends in the other result. If a thread is linked, I can discuss there to clean this nearly 2000 post thread up a little.
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Addendum: Your argument (The argument that magic jar should work on outsders because specific beats general) is like saying that mind affecting spells like cause fear work on undead. Neither the spell, nor the description of Mind Affecting state that they don't work on undead, however, the Undead type states it.
Unlike most living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don't work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
Magic Jar eventually restores a soul to it's body, right? Doesn't work. If that isn't a clue that this spell doesn't work on outsiders, then...
To be very clear, I am not trying to be a grinch who's out to steal Wizards' toys; I was unaware of the implications pertaining to Outsiders and Magic Jar until recently. It's not that I want it to be interpreted the way I've stated but rather that I simply don't see how it can be interpreted differently. Your (Anzyr and Bandw2) arguments do not seem well-founded, and I believe that it is not RAW. Since this is the General Discussion forum, and both sides seem adamant that they are correct, I propose that we table the discussion in this thread to get back to the topic at hand. I will make a thread in the Rules Forum to use for FAQ requests (the thread I linked to earlier was not formatted as a FAQ request).
For the purposes of defeating a Mythic Fighter, is it your position that using Magic Jar on Outsiders is essential to victory? If you don't need to use it and believe you can win anyway, then I propose that you shelve that portion of your strategy, even though you believe it to be a valid tactic. If you believe that it absolutely is required to continue, then I'm willing to accept that it is possible a neutral GM would allow it. It doesn't seem RAW to me, but since I'm not actually engaged in the thread's titular fight anyway, I'd prefer it if we went back to discussing theory, tactics and counter-tactics instead of banging our heads over this.
i don;t see anything actually saying outsider's cannot be magic jar'd however. i just keep seeing people bring up fluff (like the fluff related to the investigator class needing to investigate things) and using it as some reason to make the spell to not work as intended. RAW character's do not have a quantifiable soul, and thus it is nigh impossible to prove that magic jar does in fact always need to work via soul replacement. as far as i am aware it simply puts the character in control of the caster in control of the target and the target's control ends up in side a jar.