well im either so perfect that no one needs to comment, or so terrible that no one wants to lol.
I only have the favored soul in hardback so I was hesitant to say much until I could make an educated comment. I can't say for certain how I feel about it until I can review the class after I get home as I haven't looked at it in several years. I'll comment more this evening.
Not having access to Favored Soul, I'm not sure what flavor of character you're trying to create. Is there a specific function that it is better at than, say, an Oracle? A general endgame view of what you want your character proficient in will go a long way (you mention some focus on blasting. What else, if anything?)
Pathfinder's Oracle Class is CHA based, so you could grab a different sorcerer bloodline if you prefer. That said, if you're really sold on celestial bloodline for it's lower level abilities (remember, it's unlikely for you to get above level 7 abilities -- or 11 with the robe of arcane heritage) then favored soul is likely the only other spontaneous divine caster of note.
One of your 4th level cleric spells must be Blessing of Fervor. It's an unwritten rule enforced by players.
Noting that, you're using purely core spells I think? Is that lack of familiarity or is it a rule of your game?
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I'm sorry to say but, a no-early access spontaneous theurge is so poor a class as to be actively bad. Two spontaneous casters amplifies the issue of early access considerably. I really, really discourage you from using this build unless the rest of your party is *extremely* sub-optimal.
Even worse, you have gone for a blaster type build where your save DCs and caster levels are not going to be high enough to challenge enemies of your CR. Blasters are a suboptimal route even for a full caster, let alone a semi-caster like a theurge! Trust me when I say, this build will make you feel like you can't contribute meaningfully to encounters.
Has your DM seen the FAQ that explicitly states you can get in with SLAs? I guess that's his perogative to ignore, but in this case I would strongly recommend shelving your theurge idea until a later time or a new DM.
So far, the feats/spells all seem to be at least reasonable. They are all things I'd pick as a blaster that can sometimes buff.
That said, Focused Spell wouldn't work with Ghoul Touch, even with Persistent metamagic applied. That raises the DC for one target when a spell has multiple targets. That metamagic combo would be pretty nasty on create pit/Glitterdust/Sound Burst/Holy Smite/Stinking Cloud though, so the focused rod is still useful. Depends on how well you can line up two or more targets.
I agree with Blakmane that this route is suboptimal. This can be made less awful by getting access to membership in a magic guild (if you're coming into the campaign with replacement character, you might argue that you would have this membership and have built up some amount of fame per level) I suggested this in the other thread, and if you're at all interested I can post more details if you desire. You could eventually have the spell casting ability of a level 20 sorcerer/level 14 favored soul -- or 17 sorcerer/17 favored soul if you hate 9th level spells. (Note that this spellcaster level overlaps with practiced spellcaster if it goes above HD, both also overlap with the prayer bead (karma)/Ioun stone)
Just to get the point across, here is a cross section of enemies you may be expected to fight on an ordinary adventuring day at CL12. Your best attack is 10d6 fire with, assuming a 24 WIS, a DC 20 save (so 35 damage average or 17.5 on a save). I should note that of course you won't be in a vaccuum, but as a general balancing point you should at least be able to take on an opponent of your own CR easily, survive a CR+1 1v1 and contribute meaningfully to a CR+2 and above fight:
1-3 Purple worms (CR12, 200 HP, +8 Reflex)
Saves on a 12+, you are likely to do ~25 damage per round towards the worm's 200 HP, taking you 8 rounds to kill just one on your own. The purple worms probably kill you in 1-2 rounds in return.
1 Adult Red dragon (CR 14, 212 HP, +10 reflex, +15 Will)
Combined with resist energy, the dragon takes no damage from any of your primary attacks. Your best attack is holy smite (4d8 for ~9 damage a round), the save for which the dragon passes on a 5+ and would require over 20 rounds to kill. The dragon likely kills you in one roundsif it focuses you.
1-2 Glabrezus (CR 13, 186 HP, +4 reflex, +11 will, SR 24)
Glabrezus have low reflex but resist 10 of both your fire and acid attacks, bringing your average damage down to ~20 per round. On top of that, you need to roll a 12+ to beat their SR,which brings your average damage down to ~10 HP a round, requiring over 18 rounds on average to bring one down. In response, their spells AND attacks are strong enough to end you in ~2 rounds.
You basically just aren't contributing at this point.
So, from Inner Sea Magic:
Eclectic Training (5 Fame): Guilds often require members to master and train in different subjects. When your Fame score in a guild reaches 5, choose one spellcasting class you have at least 1 level in—you increase your effective caster level in that class (including the number of spells you know and can cast per day) by +1, to a maximum caster level equal to your total Hit Dice. Single-classed spellcasters should still pick a class to which this bonus applies, since this bonus is retroactive.
Esoteric Training (35 Fame): The bonus to caster level you gain from Eclectic Training increases to +3 (but is still limited by your total Hit Dice). You may select a second spellcasting class to gain a +1 bonus to effective caster level.
To gain Fame in a guild, one may complete level appropriate adventures that are relevant to the guild, or (not exclusive) they can roll skill checks (spellcraft/know arcana/something relevant) every 'semester'. The book suggests that a character should experience around 5 semesters per character level, subject to GM discretion.
It costs 500 GP to enter, and 200 GP per semester (it is up to your GM if they consider this to count as consumables against WBL... still, I'd pay 7500 for 3 extra effective spellcaster levels in my main class, with another in my off class on the side)
Thus, at your beginning character level, you could argue that you already have +35 fame. Note, there are other benefits too... these are just the general perks anyone gets at 5 fame/35 fame in *any* magic guild.
If you can pull this off, your +3 levels in sorcerer will negate the spellcasting loss from favored soul, so you shouldn't be in any worse shape than an equivalently leveled sorcerer (albeit without bloodline powers or bloodline spells -- your divine casting more than makes up for this, though)
Without early entry, or a GM ok with adding guild rules, best to avoid the MT.
For an caster both arcane and divine, instead consider: witch, spell sage wizard, or what I want to play, being a half-elven (for favored class bonus spells known and access to) ancient lorekeeper oracle (ARG, gets one wiz spell every 2 lvls) possibly with blackened curse (BoA, fire blasty spells known) and dual cursed for rerolls, eldritch heritage arcane for familiar UMDer..
Im not particularly sure if the situation is nearly as dire as Blakmane posted. You should, as a non-optimized but reasonably put together PC with appropriate WBL, be *exactly* as strong as another CR 12 encounter - which is the Purple Worm example (note that a single worm is CR 12). In this encounter, you arguably stand a chance. In this scenario, *exactly* as strong means you have a 50/50 chance of death.
A CR 14 encounter would be a hard encounter for a party of 4 level 12 PCs (at least according to CR guidelines). If you have a single creature stand in for the hard CR encounter (say an adult red dragon), there is a chance it's resistance/DR/immunities will render a potentially appropriate CR encounter unfeasible (just as a different monster might be ROFL stomped by the significant loss in action economy)
I realize that CR guidelines are far from perfect, especially at high levels. However, for a non-optimized PC, they shouldn't be completely thrown overboard.
A more appropriate question would be if the character can withstand 1 creature of CR 11. Four of these would constitute an 'epic' encounter as per CR guidelines, and should theoretically have equal action economy supposing a party of 4 PCs.
Timdog, if your party is not the standard 4 PC, this figure might need to go up or down in order to compensate.
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My DM's pretty resistent to anything not on the pazio site....You might take a look at the Theurge base class in the New Paths Compendium from Kobold Press.
I'm on my phone or I'd like directly to it, sorry :(
Fair enough!You could always let your DM take a look at the reviews (right here on the Paizo site :) and decide for himself:
The Theurge class has received a lot a very positive feedback and is very fun to play!
Yeah, it is a bit much. I personally don't believe that the writers were considering Mystic Theurge when they generated the ability, because otherwise it is fine.
Does he allow/use other Pathfinder Campaign Setting books? It is definitely from the Paizo group, and even the core rulebooks sometimes let overpowered options through.
However, I can totally get behind a person who doesn't want to allow this on principle. I just think it is a thing to consider, but definitely not to trap an unwitting GM with. It does give precedent to your GM though for perhaps giving you means to up your effective caster level through his own story methods.
EDIT:: Reply to concurrent post.
After working out the math, your party composition shouldn't make a difference.
Party of 4-5 Level 12 -> APL 12
Party of 6 Level 12 -> APL 13
Epic encounter for APL 12 -> CR 15
Epic Encounter for APL 13 -> CR 16
4 creatures = creature CR + 4
5 creatures = creature CR + 4.5 (Id round this down)
6 creatures = creature CR + 5
Thus, for an epic encounter with equivalent action economy, you ought to stand a good chance of soloing against a single opponent that is a CR = your level - 1.
Im not particularly sure if the situation is nearly as dire as Blakmane posted. You should, as a non-optimized but reasonably put together PC with appropriate WBL, be *exactly* as strong as another CR 12 encounter - which is the Purple Worms example, where you arguably stand a chance. In this scenario, *exactly* as strong means you have a 50/50 chance of death.
A CR 14 encounter would be a hard encounter for a party of 4 level 12 PCs (at least according to CR guidelines). If you have a single creature stand in for the hard CR encounter (say an adult red dragon), there is a chance it's resistance/DR/immunities will render a potentially appropriate CR encounter unfeasible (just as a different monster might be ROFL stomped by the significant loss in action economy)
I realize that CR guidelines are far from perfect, especially at high levels. However, for a non-optimized PC, they shouldn't be completely thrown overboard.
He doesn't stand a chance against the purple worm. Look at the stats. The purple worm kills him in 1-2 rounds, he kills it in ~8, ignoring the fact that he would be grappled on the first turn. He doesn't even have fly to bypass the encounter... and the purple worm is one of the easiest, most iconic CR12 monsters.
Regardless, a fight against 4 CR = level opponents is not a 50/50 fight. PC classes are expected to come out on top of any encounter up to a +3, although one would expect serious resource expenditure by the top margin (4 purple worms in this case). Remember, PCs are not supposed to lose fights, even boss fights (CR+3). CR+4 is when the fights are no longer in PC's favour and there's a 50/50 chance of TPK.
Almost every enemy by this level has resistance to at least two elements, if not outright immunity. I could have been mean and picked devils.
Another way to look at it: Each party member who doesn't contribute is dropping the effective CR a party can handle by 1. In this case, that dragon looks very scary as a CR+2 encounter... which it shouldn't. A CR+3 encounter should be scary (two dragons). Imagine a party of 4 consisting entirely of characters about as strong as this theurge. A single purple worm has about a 50% chance of killing a character in this case, which puts the party's APL at about 12-4=8 (CR+4 encounter).... which works out about right in the math.
Of course, if your party consists of a healbot cleric, a sniper rogue and a STR dumped core monk, he'll be contributing equally: it's just, the average CR the party can face will be much lower.
For comparison, a crossblooded admixture wizard will be doing about 3 times the damage he has here with maximized/empowered fireball and will vaporise a purple worm in ~2 rounds, as well as likely surviving a few extra rounds with a mirror image or invis buff. That's on the high end of blaster caster optimisation... but blaster casters barely scrape muster so that's not suprising. In comparison, the theurge isn't even a standard blaster caster: it has some weak damage spells and no defensive spells: it isn't contributing meaningfully in a normal party.
*edit*
by the looks of the party, he can probably contribute OK. It's not exactly a high-powered group if the rogue is the one contributing the most in fights. If he finds he can't do anything he can always reroll I guess.
I think one of the two of us has misunderstood how CR applies in a scenario such as this.
As I understand it, a single CR 12 purple worm is a CR 12 encounter for a party of 4-5 PCs. 4 CR 12 purple worms are a CR 16 encounter for 4-5 PCs (5 CR 12 worms are also CR 16+)
For equal action economy in a standard party, the assumption is that 2 opposed equal CR creatures ought to have an equal odds shot at defeating their opponent.
It may be (in fact, it undoubtedly is) the case that the character will not contribute in the same fashion as an equivalently leveled single class caster. However, holding a character up to a standard that they need to solo an encounter considered 'challenging' (Adult Dragon is APL+2) to a party of 4 is at the least expecting some significant optimization -- a thing the original poster has spoken against.
On a side note -- watching the Youtubes, I just got my very first ever commercial in ... Korean maybe?
I think one of the two of us has misunderstood how CR applies in a scenario such as this.
As I understand it, a single CR 12 purple worm is a CR 12 encounter for a party of 4-5 PCs. 4 CR 12 purple worms are a CR 16 encounter for 4-5 PCs (5 CR 12 worms are also CR 16+)
For equal action economy in a standard party, the assumption is that 2 opposed equal CR creatures ought to have an equal odds shot at defeating their opponent.
It may be (in fact, it undoubtedly is) the case that the character will not contribute in the same fashion as an equivalently leveled single class caster. However, holding a character up to a standard that they need to solo an encounter considered 'challenging' (Adult Dragon is APL+2) to a party of 4 is at the least expecting some significant optimization -- a thing the original poster has spoken against.
On a side note -- watching the Youtubes, I just got my very first ever commercial in ... Korean maybe?
If you actually read my post you'll notice I'm not claiming he solo the CR+2 encounter. Quoted from my own post:
"I should note that of course you won't be in a vaccuum, but as a general balancing point you should at least be able to take on an opponent of your own CR easily, survive a CR+1 1v1 and contribute meaningfully to a CR+2 and above fight:"
I may have been a tad optimistic, but the problem here is that the OP's build barely contributes meaningfully in a CR=APL fight, let alone above that.
Characters with class levels and WBL are more powerful than their CR suggests. That's why it is expected that a party of four characters are expected to be able to defeat a group of four CR=APL monsters (although it is quite a tough fight!). At this level, even a straight unoptimised martial will likely be doing upwards of 100 damage per round from the three iteratives. The ~35 damage from fireball is not cutting it anymore.
Although, as I pointed out, it looks like the whole party is well below even the average optimisation ball. In this case, again as I pointed out, their APL is actually lower and thus the OP probably doesn't need to worry. The purple worm would be a boss monster instead of just a roadblock for such a party and so he would contribute about right.
I apologize for not correctly remembering your first post on the matter. I should have gone back up to read it again.
I think we're more or less on the same page. That said, however, I think my main gripe is how the test is being performed:
You calculate the player's effectiveness against an equal CR opponent and see him fail pretty easily (although with dazing metamagic against an opponent with init:-2 that fails on a 12 the opponent will be effectively neutered probably half the time for the first 3 rounds, during which he could use 3 scorching rays (easy 4 touch AC) to draw his opponent's health down by half.)
-- this is equivalent to having a party of 4 PCs face 4 purple worms, if each PC is expected to easily overcome an encounter of equivalent CR. This is a 50/50 TPK scenario. It is a CR 12 (easy) when you have 4 sets of actions to deal with it. In such a case, a meaningful contribution could be to hit it with a dazing fireball (this would be especially meaningful in a fight with more creatures, as he might be denying actions to his partner's opponents as well)
In the case of higher CR monsters, it becomes even more difficult to adjudicate. Reach + Force Punch and Persistent Create Pit will give some options for when the opponent has immunity to fire, but sometimes a higher CR opponent will just have the right combination of immunities to make a character useless.
-- Granted, the presented character's spell selection is a little heavy on the fort save spells, and a little light on the will save spells. The will saves the character does have are skewed toward humanoid / spellcaster fights.
The best, as I see it, decider of whether your PC is capable of defeating Level appropriate encounters is to judge your ability against CR = APL - 4 (Normal) through CR = APL - 1 (Epic). You should be able to nearly curbstomp the Normal encounters solo - this indicates, in a complete vacuum, that you will be able to contribute significantly in any casual encounter a group should face.
CR APL - 3 you shouldn't be able to curbstomp. It is theoretically at least challenging for you to solo.
CR APL - 2 should be hard to solo, but shouldn't take up more than a quarter, roughly, of your resources
CR APL - 1 encounters should take a good chunk of resources, but you should not be terribly worried about imminent death.
CR APL is a 50/50 shot at death, going all out.
CR APL + 1 begins to get into territory where providing additional action economy or enhancing it for your team is the thing you contribute. You might support your party healer, or use the few buff/debuff spells you have that could stick.
...
I think running your PC against a number of NPCs with class levels and NPC wealth (pre-made from online Codex) would be the ideal measure of your fighting capability as it stacks up against non-optimized benchmarks.
Yes, you might eventually (or perhaps often) run into a character/monster who is APL+3 who your party needs to defeat as a team. Without knowing party builds, it is difficult if not impossible to guess how you might get your actions to synergize with your team.