I've been trying to wrap my brain around it for over two hours, even utilizing spread sheets, but I keep getting turned around, lost, and more confused each time I try to figure it out. I need help from the experienced mathematicians on these forums to help me with the calculations.
Consider this a challenge. Do you have what it takes to solve the following word problem?
Now, my character possesses 22 magic capital that she has already paid for, has a business that has built up a reserve of 129 potentially purchasable magic capital (each of which can be purchased for 50gp), and 27.1 gp.
Each day, her business earns her an additional 7 potentially purchasable magic capital and 13.8 gp all on its own.
Additionally, each day she uses 10 of her purchased magic capital to craft a 2,000 gp magic item to sell for 1,000 gp. She then uses that 1,000gp profit to buy from her pool of potential magic capital to add to her pool of paid for magic capital.
How many days will it be until she runs out of potentially purchasable magic capital, and on that day, how much gold and magic capital will she possess (both potential and purchased)?
Assumption #1: Her goal is to accumulate as much purchased magical capital in as short a period of time as possible. Any gold/profit she earns is ultimately put towards getting more magic capital.
Assumption #2: She can craft and sell the aforementioned item and use the profits to buy more magic capital all in the same day, every day.
Any help you can provide would be most appreciative, especially if you could develop a formula or spreadsheet that I could follow. Apologies if my wording is vague or confusing. I tried to make it as clear and concise as possible.
"10 of her purchased magic capital to craft a 2,000 gp magic item to sell for 1,000 gp"
idk what rules you use for gaining welth and all. but are u sure that you can craft a 2000 gp item each day?
the rules normaly allow up to 1000 gp base velue of item in crafting each day(at 500 gp cost).
so a +2 weapon that is worth 8000 gp should take 8 days and cost 4000 to make.(beside normal and master work weapon costs)
You are aware that assumption #2 is going well beyond the intent of the rules, right? Crafting for profit is intended to be done via 'earning', not via 'crafting'. The abstraction of craft earning is based on the idea that you do not have infinite demand for your items. 'Selling loot' is intended to be an infrequent action, when returning from an adventure - not a day to day activity to liquidate crafted assets.
In short, this will 'break' any semblance of economic balance you might have otherwise pretended to have.
"10 of her purchased magic capital to craft a 2,000 gp magic item to sell for 1,000 gp"
idk what rules you use for gaining welth and all. but are u sure that you can craft a 2000 gp item each day?
the rules normaly allow up to 1000 gp base velue of item in crafting each day(at 500 gp cost).
so a +2 weapon that is worth 8000 gp should take 8 days and cost 4000 to make.(beside normal and master work weapon costs)
I believe she was 'rushing' the job, which is +5DC to craft twice as much a day. Again, though, not intended for earning.
I believe she was 'rushing' the job, which is +5DC to craft twice as much a day. Again, though, not intended for earning."10 of her purchased magic capital to craft a 2,000 gp magic item to sell for 1,000 gp"
idk what rules you use for gaining welth and all. but are u sure that you can craft a 2000 gp item each day?
the rules normaly allow up to 1000 gp base velue of item in crafting each day(at 500 gp cost).
so a +2 weapon that is worth 8000 gp should take 8 days and cost 4000 to make.(beside normal and master work weapon costs)
oh ok. sweet. i must have missed that. i looked at the next line that state yo ucant work more then 8 hours. didnt see the part that you cna rush and make 4 hours count for 1000 gp by adding +5.
thx my crafting toon will most probebly use this.
Excel spreadsheet:
A1: Days B1: Magic Capital C1: Potential
A2=0 B2=22 C2=129
A3=1+A2 B3=B2-10+MIN(20,C2) C3=MAX(0,C2-20)+7Drag A3:C3 straight down. I didn't bother with gold but that's easy enough to add.
She empties the potential on day 12, with 114 capital in the bank.
You can't really ignore the gold though. By my math she will be earning no less than 513.8gp profit each day, which itself can be used to purchase even more magic capital, causing her pool of potential capital to deplete in only a couple of days.
Or did you account for that and I just missed it?
Where would she be earning the extra 500 gold from if she's spending all day crafting? The 1000gp income from the sale of the magic item give you 1000gp, which is used to purchase 20 magic capital.
So, you are spending 10 magic capital a day on the crafting and selling it (somehow) for 1,000gp, then using that 1,000gp to purchase 20 magic capital from your 'potentially purchasable' stock. That is a net increase of 10 magic capital per day, while pulling 20 magic capital from the backlog. The building provides an extra 7 magic capital into the backlog, so daily net change is:
current magic capital: +10/day
backlog magic capital: -13/day
gold on hand: +13.8gp/day
Also, what item are you enchanting daily? You have to be paying out for the mundane (masterwork) item to enchant as well. 'crafting' a +1 sword is not poofing a sword into existence, it is enchanting a masterwork sword into a +1 sword. What is her applicable craft skill modifier? Also, what are the stats on the business that is earning 13.8gp/day (+128 income modifier)
Where would she be earning the extra 500 gold from if she's spending all day crafting? The 1000gp income from the sale of the magic item give you 1000gp, which is used to purchase 20 magic capital.
So, you are spending 10 magic capital a day on the crafting and selling it (somehow) for 1,000gp, then using that 1,000gp to purchase 20 magic capital from your 'potentially purchasable' stock. That is a net increase of 10 magic capital per day, while pulling 20 magic capital from the backlog. The building provides an extra 7 magic capital into the backlog, so daily net change is:
current magic capital: +10/day
backlog magic capital: -13/day
gold on hand: +13.8gp/dayAlso, what item are you enchanting daily? You have to be paying out for the mundane (masterwork) item to enchant as well. 'crafting' a +1 sword is not poofing a sword into existence, it is enchanting a masterwork sword into a +1 sword. What is her applicable craft skill modifier?
Thanks for the clarification. So the only thing not accounted for in the above spread sheet formula is the +13.8gp per day?
The item she crafts is of no matter; it could be any wondrous item with a market price of 2,000gp in which she can auto-beat the craft DC by taking 10. Could be a heavyload belt, for example. Even if she saturates the market with a given item, she could always switch to something else, or mix it up from day to day so that market saturation doesn't occur for a long, long time. In any case, markets aren't really accounted for in the simple mechanics of Pathfinder, and thus are rather off-topic here.
to incorporate the extra gold earned and spending that on extra capital:
A1:Day B1:Current Magic C1:Potential Magic D1:gp
A2:0 B2:22 C2:129 D2:27.1
A3:=A2+1 B3:=B2+MIN(C2,TRUNC(D2/50))-10 C3:=C2+7-MIN(C2,TRUNC(D2/50)) D3:=D2+13.8-(50*MIN(C2,TRUNC(D2/50)))+1000
and then fill down all columns from row 3.
In column B, you are taking the previous value, and purchasing as much capital as you have gold on hand for (none in day 1), and taking out the 10 you are using for crafting.
In column C, you are adding the 7 the building generates, and subtracting out how many you purchased (same part-formula as column b).
In column D, you are adding the gold the building earns, subtracting out the gold used to purchase capital (50 * the same part-formula), then adding in 1000 gp for the sale of 'the item'.
Now, as said, this is not the intended use of the craft skills. In reality, for gold earning, a +20 (assumption) craft skill could net her 4 gp/day if she practices her craft at her working business. That is nowhere near enough to keep a 7 magic capital shop stabilized in magic capital purchasing. Magic capital, being the most expensive form of capital, is the hardest to actually produce without bringing in income for other sources (the intention is this is money from adventuring). To make your business homeostatic, you'd have to shift the production of the building to closer match gold and capital production - which is going to be far less than using your crafting hack. The markets not being accounted for is specifically why the craft income is so low compared to the magic items it could create.
What are the actual income stats of the business?
And, yes, market saturation IS discussed in the rules. There is a section in Ultimate Campaign in the Campaign Systems chapter (page 173) that specifically calls out this loophole you are attempting, and basically tell the GM to not allow you to do this.
A typical magic shop earns about 3 gp per day, or perhaps 4—5 gp per day if a skilled owner PC directly participates in running the business. Because magic items are very expensive (with the most common potions costing 50 gp or more, far higher than what most commoners can afford), this income represents many days where the business sells nothing, followed by selling one or two high-priced items, which averages out to a few gp of profit per day. In other words, just because you can craft one +1 longsword each day doesn't mean you're likely to sell one each day in your shop.
Making an assumption on her business, and assuming she has a +20 on whatever skill she was using:
The business seems to be at a +60 Magic earning, with the remainder +128 gp earning.
You can't really 'balance' this business, as even if she dropped the magic bonus down to +1 (minimum) and put that extra +59 into gp (to +187 gp), it'd still be earning 1 potential magic capital a day, and 19.7gp/day. If she also worked, earning an extra 4 gp/day. That's (Take10 + 20 + 10 (run a business))/10. That's a total gp income of 23.7gp/day, which means being able to afford a chunk of magic capital once every couple days.
This is the level of severity your exploit is creating - and why it is specifically called out.
What are the actual income stats of the business?
.
Gold +202Goods +33
Influence +188
Labor +37
Magic +54
My character has hired a manager to run it while she crafts. The manager possesses a +8 modifier, takes 10, and keeps 2gp of the profits each day for her pay.
It's probably worth noting that I've split the business' modifiers into two checks, so I'm earning both gold AND magic capital each day. I think the modifiers split up to +54 Magic and +148 gold.
So 18 + 54 = 72, or 7 magic capital per day.
...18 + 148 = 166, or 14.6gp each day, after pay.
For those worried about market saturation, crafter simply uses (crafts?) teleport to go all over the place with the goodies.
What a vile, evil plan you have, R.D.
For those worried about market saturation, crafter simply uses (crafts?) teleport to go all over the place with the goodies.
What a vile, evil plan you have, R.D.
I'm currently only 5th-level, but I also happen to be a ruler of a kingdom, so I have connections that could be utilized.
CraziFuzzy: Here is the table, I started on day 13, since that's the calendar day I started this on, and I have until the end of the month (the 31st) to perform my various downtime activities. Does that look correct to you? I copied your formulas into the cells you mentioned.
On the last day shown, when I run out of potential capital, do I get the listed gold AND the magic capital, or just the magic capital?
Just want to make sure I'm reading it right.
What are the actual income stats of the business?.
Gold +202
Goods +33
Influence +188
Labor +37
Magic +54My character has hired a manager to run it while she crafts. The manager possesses a +8 modifier, takes 10, and keeps 2gp of the profits each day for her pay.
It's probably worth noting that I've split the business' modifiers into two checks, so I'm earning both gold AND magic capital each day. I think the modifiers split up to +54 Magic and +148 gold.
So 18 + 54 = 72, or 7 magic capital per day.
...18 + 148 = 166, or 14.6gp each day, after pay.
There is no rule that states the manager's skills affect the business's income. The only functions a manager has is to prevent/slow attrition, and handle events. Even if the PC was running the business, their skill has no bearing on the business' income check (though they gain a +10 bonus to their own).
There is no rule that states the manager's skills affect the business's income. The only functions a manager has is to prevent/slow attrition, and handle events. Even if the PC was running the business, their skill has no bearing on the business' income check (though they gain a +10 bonus to their own).
I really don't believe any of that. First, there's no rule anywhere stating that the manager's modifier doesn't apply. Second, there'd be absolutely no point in the rules listing a manager's skill modifier if that were true.
As for running a business, a PC absolutely does get to add their modifier to that of the business, though it's hardly efficient to do so (for every roll you give up, you lose a d20's worth of capital).
I'm pretty sure the rules specifically say so (though it's a pita to hunt down).
CraziFuzzy: Here is the table, I started on day 13, since that's the calendar day I started this on, and I have until the end of the month (the 31st) to perform my various downtime activities. Does that look correct to you? I copied your formulas into the cells you mentioned.
On the last day shown, when I run out of potential capital, do I get the listed gold AND the magic capital, or just the magic capital?
Just want to make sure I'm reading it right.
Yes, that looks like what I had run. Have you run this plan by the GM, and he/she approves of a couple weeks of downtime netting your 5th level pc wealth that will lead to about 23,500 gp worth of magic items the next time you get into town? That is greater than a 7th level PC's wealth level, not counting anything your character already has. What is your character's motivation to adventure when he can live like this staying at home?
Yes, that looks like what I had run. Have you run this plan by the GM, and he/she approves of 12 days of downtime netting your 5th level pc wealth that will lead to about 23,500 gp worth of magic items the next time you get into town? That is greater than a 7th level PC's wealth level, not counting anything your character already has. What is your character's motivation to adventure when he can live like this staying at home?
He's aware of my activities. We have an online calendar for tracking our downtime activities. I did the same thing during the last month of in-game time (though I'm starting to question how good my math may have been).
Most of it is going to go back into the kingdom anyways in the form of BP.
I really don't believe that. First, there's no rule anywhere stating anything remotely similar to that. Second, there'd be absolutely no point in the rules listing a manager's skill modifier if that were true.
Skills: This indicates the main skills the manager has ranks in, allowing you or the GM to make skill checks for the manager if an event or encounter requires it. The manager might also have ranks in other skills that aren’t relevant to employment duties. The managers here are examples; a specific manager you hire could have different class skills more closely suited to your business. A manager is typically a 3rd-level character with 3 ranks
in the appropriate skills and the basic NPC ability score array (Core Rulebook 451), giving the manager a +7 or +8 for class skills and a +4 or +5 for non-class skills.
The reason they list the skills, as I already stated, is to let the GM roll to have the manager handle events. The entire purpose of the downtime system is not to earn free passive wealth, it is to generate content from otherwise dead time. It is the event system that does this.
Aside from this, what manager stat block are you using that is only costing 2gp/turn, but has skills applicable to generating magic capital?
Yes, that looks like what I had run. Have you run this plan by the GM, and he/she approves of 12 days of downtime netting your 5th level pc wealth that will lead to about 23,500 gp worth of magic items the next time you get into town? That is greater than a 7th level PC's wealth level, not counting anything your character already has. What is your character's motivation to adventure when he can live like this staying at home?He's aware of my activities. We have an online calendar for tracking our downtime activities. I did the same thing during the last month of in-game time (though I'm starting to question how good my math may have been).
Most of it is going to go back into the kingdom anyways in the form of BP.
Even that is a twist of the rules. There are numerous points all through the book that state that even though they list an approximate gp value for BP, the conversion between BP and gold is not recommended. In short, there was no balancing done in this, and the results will be quite off. The kingdom has its own method of earning BP. In fact, even in the description of BP, the list it as an aggregate for goods, influence, labor, and prestige - not even including magic capital or gold.
Skills: This indicates the main skills the manager has ranks in, allowing you or the GM to make skill checks for the manager if an event or encounter requires it. The manager might also have ranks in other skills that aren’t relevant to employment duties. The managers here are examples; a specific manager you hire could have different class skills more closely suited to your business. A manager is typically a 3rd-level character with 3 ranks
in the appropriate skills and the basic NPC ability score array (Core Rulebook 451), giving the manager a +7 or +8 for class skills and a +4 or +5 for non-class skills.The reason they list the skills, as I already stated, is to let the GM roll to have the manager handle events. The entire purpose of the downtime system is not to earn free passive wealth, it is to generate content from otherwise dead time. It is the event system that does this.
Aside from this, what manager stat block are you using that is only costing 2gp/turn, but has skills applicable to generating magic capital?
However, there is nothing anywhere preventing the manager from using his skill modifier on behalf of the business? Why wouldn't he? He's running it in your absence, just as you would has you been there (minus the +10 modifier for not being the "big boss").
Even that is a twist of the rules. There are numerous points all through the book that state that even though they list an approximate gp value for BP, the conversion between BP and gold is not recommended. In short, there was no balancing done in this, and the results will be quite off. The kingdom has its own method of earning BP. In fact, even in the description of BP, the list it as an aggregate for goods, influence, labor, and prestige - not even including magic capital or gold.
I'm still not quite seeing where I'm breaking any rules. All I've seen is supposition that I might be accidentally breaking the intent of the rules, which I'm not so sure that I am.
Could you quote a few of those "numerous points" for me? I seem to have missed them.
It seems to me that the Downtime rules clearly allow me to use magic capital towards magic item creation, I've followed all the rules for said items' creation, and the kingdom rules allow me to sell magical items to the treasury to generate BP for the kingdom.
What exactly am I doing wrong here? Sure, a GM might cry "too much!" and slap me with some "market saturation" excuse (in which case, I would be happy to oblige him), but nowhere have I broken any rules that I can find.
Also, I don't believe I mentioned this yet: Thank you SO much for your help on this matter. I can be pretty hopeless at complex math. I even appreciate you trying to show me the RAI; it certainly gives me some new perspective (even if I don't necessarily agree with it).
My problem stems originally from using the Magic Item Creation rules for income - which they are not intended for. Magic Item prices are based on character power levels and game balance, not any sort of economic indicator. They are intended to be used to craft the specific items you desire as a character, most often funded by sale of adventure acquired items you do not desire. This is why the sale price of 50% and the crafting price of 50% is the same, so crafting doesn't really increase player wealth, just item appropriateness. Missing this concept is why you appear to think that one feat an some skill ranks can earn you far more in town than all your other class abilities combined via adventuring. The developers realized this as well, which is why they state not to allow it, and instead limit your downtime earning to what is actually specified in the downtime rules - or if you are going to allow it, to otherwise reduce character wealth by that amount (Ultimate Campaign pg 173, as I mentioned above).
Even the magic item contribution to the kingdom treasury has limits in it. Very minor magic items get a bit of a pass, but that's for simplicity sake due to BP's value and general rounding issues. They also mention that this is designed to handle items 'you find while adventuring' these are exchanged at 1BP=4,000gp, but if kept to minor adventuring sourced items (gems, jewelry, gp, minor magic items, etc) as intended, it is not of much consequence.
Items worth more than 4,000gp in value can be sold for BP, but are limited to only one item per settlement district per turn, and the item can't be worth more than the base value of the settlement. In this case, the exchange rate is 1BP=8,000gp.
Conversion of BP back to gold is also possible, but is discouraged by increasing unrest for each BP withdrawn, and exchanges at only 2,000gp per BP.
Essentially, they do everything in the rules to discourage and limit the exchange of one form of asset into another. This is to keep the various very disparate game systems from interfering, and exposing the imbalance. Adventuring assets, Downtime assets, and Kingdom assets, are all intended to be their own piles of 'things'. Moving value between them is incredibly inefficient, and should require justification when attempted.
Keep in mind, Ultimate Campaign, unlike many of the hard covers, is a book written for GM's, primarily. There is very little 'Player centric' content in it, and the content that is there for the players is vague and uses the GM discretion tag heavily. If your GM is okay letting you do these things, that's his call - but I wonder if he's actually read the entirety of the Ultimate Campaign book or not.
However, there is nothing anywhere preventing the manager from using his skill modifier on behalf of the business? Why wouldn't he? He's running it in your absence, just as you would has you been there (minus the +10 modifier for not being the "big boss").
There isn't even anything saying that you can add your 'big boss' modifier to the business either. The business always runs itself, with its own modifier alone. The manager's skill is what is reducing/preventing the capital and business attrition that would occur without him there.
The +10 bonus for Running a Business applies to the PC's personal earn income check, not the business's earn income check.
There isn't even anything saying that you can add your 'big boss' modifier to the business either. The business always runs itself, with its own modifier alone. The manager's skill is what is reducing/preventing the capital and business attrition that would occur without him there.
The +10 bonus for Running a Business applies to the PC's personal earn income check, not the business's earn income check.
On this point I am 100% certain you are mistaken.
I'll see if I can dig up the relevant passage.
EDIT: Found it. It's in the Rooms and Teams section, second sentence of the fifth paragraph under the Reading a Unit Stat Block header.
There's nothing anywhere preventing you from combining this with the +10 big boss bonus.
Okay, so lets look at that.
assume:
building has a +45 gp income
pc has +15 in relevant skill
combined: Take 10 + 45 + 15 + 10 = 80- => 8 gp.
separate building: Take 10 + 45 = 55 => 5.5 gp
separate pc: Take 10 + 15 + 10 = 35 => 3.5 gp
separate total: 5.5 + 3.5 = 9 gp
combining rolls throws away the extra die roll. This is one of the major flaws in the downtime rules. It is always better to roll everything individually. It is nearly always better to split up your building or organization's capital production to generate at least a +1 or each type it has available, instead of focusing all on a single type of capital, because that's an extra 10 on every individual capital check. This is, again, a serious flaw, and is probably not intended, but since few actually use the downtime rules, and fewer still understand them correctly (including most the dev team, I'd wager), this won't ever get fixed.
The rules also say, for speed/simplicity that you can completely combine all teams and rooms together into a single check - but it would be foolish to do so.
Why wouldn't a manager use his modifier to well, manage the business better?
Why wouldn't a manager use his modifier to well, manage the business better?
No one is saying they wouldn't - however, the way the rules are written, and as I demonstrated in my previous post (almost a year ago), it is foolish to combine ANY rolls in the downtime system, and you are far better off having your business earnings and your personal earnings each roll their own checks. Each Take 10 check is a free gp, so combining checks is throwing that gp away.
I think they tried to hard to make the downtime checks mirror profession checks - they should have had different room types generate a given amount of money for a poor, normal, and exceptional check result, and gone with that, instead of having the dice value directly affect the income.
Hey RD, don't forget that in order for you to make the Control Check as your kingdom's leader that you need to spend one week of downtime actually being the kingdoms leader...which means you would not spend that week crafting.
Hey RD, don't forget that in order for you to make the Control Check as your kingdom's leader that you need to spend one week of downtime actually being the kingdoms leader...which means you would not spend that week crafting.
Oh I'm well aware of that.
Dear god, I saw the title and figured you were up to something haha, can't wait to see what it is.
Dear god, I saw the title and figured you were up to something haha, can't wait to see what it is.
This was from nearly a year ago, Dragonflyer. When I was earning enough gold to build powerful magical items at level 5, the GM politely asked me to cut it out.
(This is how I got my kobold crown, more or less.)
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th
Slot headband; Price 69,000gp; Weight 1 lb.
DESCRIPTION
An elaborate caul hat made from mithral wire, precious gems, and the bones of reptilian creatures great and small, the kobold crown is a unique magical headpiece that grants its wearer many of the abilities possessed by kobolds. It magically adheres to the wearer’s scalp, granting the subject a distinctly draconic appearance and making accidental removal virtually impossible. The kobold crown grants anyone wearing it 60-foot darkvision. It also increases the wearer’s mental faculties, adding a +6 enhancement bonus to Intelligence, effectively functioning as a headband of vast intelligence and granting ranks in Craft (traps), Perception, and Stealth. Finally, it bestows a +5 competence bonus on each of those three skills as well as Profession (miner).
CONSTRUCTION
Requirements[/] Craft Wondrous Item, darkvision, fox’s cunning, creator must be a kobold; [b]Cost 34,500gp
Whoops, I saw it as a recent thread for some reason. You know, I was wondering how you got that crown