The Guide to Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Organized Play puts some restrictions on what scenarios a character can replay. However, as far as I can tell it doesn't explicitly describe what a "replay" is. I could see three possible definitions of a Replay as far as Organized Play is concerned:
1. The most basic definition would be a play of any scenario which the character has played before. The big problem I see with this definition is that if a character fails a scenario, but decides to go on with the rest of the group, they could eventually be locked out of ever being able to complete the earlier failed scenario. For example, my wife has been playing sporadically. She has currently played and completed two Adventure 2 scenarios and played and failed an Adventure 1 scenario. My group is currently getting ready to run through Adventure 3. If she were to jump in and gain a set 3 deck upgrade, she would never be able to finish Adventure 1 unless she played a scenario and "upgraded" down to a lower set number card to replace the set 3 card.
2. A Replay is when a character plays a scenario which they have already played and gained a Success in. This could potentially lock a character out of being able to take a scenario's reward if they decided to not take it the first time.
3. A Replay is when a character plays a scenario which they have already played and gained a Success in and from which they taken the reward. The problem with this definition is that it could be abused to let a character always be able to replay a scenario, such as Ghosts of the Deep, by just choosing to never take the reward so they can be available to help other characters through the scenario.
So which definition is proper for Organized Play and can it be spelled out better in future versions of the guide?
I don't really understand the whole thing about not taking the reward. Can you succeed and decide to not take the reward? And if so, why would you?
I consider a replay to be 1, replaying any scenario you have played before. It does restrict how far forward you can go while still wanting to go backwards. I think that's by design.
For those wondering, the limiting rule is on page 9 of the organized play guide,and it is:
To determine whether your character is eligible to replay a particular scenario, find the highest set indicator in yourcharacter deck (count B as zero for this purpose). You may replay any scenario with an adventure deck number within one of that card’s number. For example, the card with the highest set indicator in Chris’s Lem deck is a Wayfarer ally with an adventure deck number of 3. Chris can replay Lem with that deck in scenarios from adventures 2, 3, and 4, but not 1, 5, or 6.
I don't really understand the whole thing about not taking the reward. Can you succeed and decide to not take the reward? And if so, why would you?
I believe it has been mentioned by Tanis or others that you can elect to not take a reward, although the Guide does not seem to explicitly say you can that. It can probably be debated weather or not the Guide implies that taking the reward is optional upon a success.
As for why you would elect not to take a reward, here's a situation: You're playing with Siwar for the first time with a new party. You're starting out with Ghosts of the Deep. Your party wins, but you are pretty happy with the spells you already have so you don't really need the random spell reward. You think the random weapon might be nice, but you don't have a weapon card slot in your deck yet. So you elect to not take the reward. When you finish Adventure 1, you gain a card feat and take a weapon slot. You then go back through Ghosts of the Deep with a different party and this time take the reward, hoping to pull one of the magic daggers as your random weapon.
Probably not one of the best examples, but that's a type of situation in which you might not want to take the reward on your first play of a scenario.
pluvia, the rule says that you may only gain the reward once, not that any replayed scenarios don't get a reward. So the thing you're worried about in 1 doesn't happen.
That being said, I remember a conversation with my PFS VL about this and he seems to think that you're not allowed to gain the reward if you've played it successfully before for some reason.
pluvia, the rule says that you may only gain the reward once, not that any replayed scenarios don't get a reward. So the thing you're worried about in 1 doesn't happen.
I'm confused. How does my concern in 1 not happen? The concern isn't about weather or not you can gain the reward on a replay. It's about losing the ability to replay a failed scenario if you upgraded your deck too far. Vic has confirmed that 1 is the proper definition of a replay, so if my wife wants to continue to play with the group, we I can't let her take any card upgrades higher than a 2 or she will be locked out of ever being able to try and complete Ghosts of the Deep, and in effect would never be able to complete Adventure 1, based on the rule elcoderdude quoted.
Even if she successfully completed Ghosts of the Deep before she took a 3 or higher deck upgrade, but didn't go ahead and play the and succeed at the rest of the scenarios, she'd then only have one chance to complete all of the other scenarios. The deck appropriate power level rule only goes into effect for replays, so she can play a lower level scenario for the first time, but if she then ended up having bad luck on Nature's Wrath and failed it, she could not replay it until she "upgraded" her deck down. Otherwise she'd have to deal with having an underpowered character for the rest of the Adventure Path.
And since the rule works in the other direction as well, if she did keep her highest upgrade at a 2 card and the group failed at an Adventure 4 scenario and wanted to replay it right away, she wouldn't be able to participate. This is an aspect of the rule that can really be a potential problem for any character. If for whatever reason a player just doesn't like any of the 3 cards in their character's class deck, or just has some bad luck and is unable to gain any 3 upgrades, they could be unable to replay an Adventure 4 scenario due to this rule. Granted, it's pretty unlikely that you'd not be able to get a deck 3 or 4 upgrade when you play an Adventure 4 scenario due to the wonderful Basic/Elite purge, but it is a possibility.
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I'm wondering if there couldn't be some better way to regulate replays, that would solve these issues without causing more imbalance. A character with high pack cards and many feats is likely to steamroll over earlier adventures, and that would lead to reduced fun for the people who are adequately levelled.
On the other hand, I've been wondering, looking ahead to next season, whether there are going to be restrictions about using the same character for more than one season's scenarios. What would stop someone from playing Adventure 1 of Season 0, then Season 1, then Season 2, before going on to Adventure 2. They'd be ridiculously over-feated by the time they reached Adventure 5-6 at that rate. I know this is kind of out of the scope of the current topic, though.
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On the other hand, I've been wondering, looking ahead to next season, whether there are going to be restrictions about using the same character for more than one season's scenarios. What would stop someone from playing Adventure 1 of Season 0, then Season 1, then Season 2, before going on to Adventure 2. They'd be ridiculously over-feated by the time they reached Adventure 5-6 at that rate. I know this is kind of out of the scope of the current topic, though.
I would not expect you'll be able to play characters from one season to the next without restarting from scratch.
PACG does not have a long life for characters. Characters that were run in Rise of the Runelords cannot be then run in Skull & Shackles without starting out as a new character. I'd expect the same with the Organized Play. Any character that you ran during Season 0 would probably (need to) be restarted at the beginning of Season 1.
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pluvia, the rule says that you may only gain the reward once, not that any replayed scenarios don't get a reward. So the thing you're worried about in 1 doesn't happen.
That being said, I remember a conversation with my PFS VL about this and he seems to think that you're not allowed to gain the reward if you've played it successfully before for some reason.
1) You can only gain the reward once you've completed a scenario.
2) If you replay the scenario, you cannot gain the reward again if you've succeeded before.
That being said, there has been discussion whether you are required to take the reward at the time it was achieved. No where in the guide book does it say that you have to. So that random card or that power feat you earned a couple scenarios back might be able to be utilized at a later date. (However, the rules for picking cards still is in place so you can't choose to get a higher level card later on. It is still based on the scenario that was played.) Hawkmoon, one might not like the available power feats by the time you get your third so you'd want to wait until you gain a role to put that power feat on the role card. Officially, we haven't really seen any rulings here about delaying the Taking of the Reward.
Luckily it hasn't come up with any of my groups but I've already been looking at some of my characters and wondering about delaying my rewards in order to get something I need rather than throw away a reward that I can't use (at that time).
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As far as replays, if someone has not completed all of Adventure 1 by the time the group has started Adventure 3, then they're out-of-luck. It's the reason I have multiple characters to play. We take the time to help out the people that need to catch up. Even if it is a two-person session. But if they don't care, then it is on them to have a character that may not be up to the same standards as the others. I tend to push to make sure that they get the scenarios with feat rewards done.
If she were to jump in and gain a set 3 deck upgrade, she would never be able to finish Adventure 1 unless she played a scenario and "upgraded" down to a lower set number card to replace the set 3 card.
Another potential solution to this: She could play a pregen character in the lower scenarios, using the "Taking One for the Team" rule to apply earned rewards to her main character. (I think the pregen would have to stay unaltered for this to work, though.)
Yes? No?
That is what I was wondering too. Can you take one for the team that way?
I also don't think it is intentional that you can skip a power feat to save it for when you have your role card.
But I'm very unfamiliar with the exact nuances of organized play. I've only dabbled in it with friends and family so far.
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I would not expect you'll be able to play characters from one season to the next without restarting from scratch.PACG does not have a long life for characters. Characters that were run in Rise of the Runelords cannot be then run in Skull & Shackles without starting out as a new character. I'd expect the same with the Organized Play. Any character that you ran during Season 0 would probably (need to) be restarted at the beginning of Season 1.
That may be a fair expectation, maybe not: I haven't heard any word one way or the other from Paizo staff, and it isn't mentioned at all, that I could see, in the guide. PFS having multiple seasons, I see scenarios from all seasons being played pretty indiscriminantly -- admittedly there's no AP binding them together. I would be interested in hearing what any future plans are.
In any case, these APs do seem to reward the replay-till-you-win model of play, which may not be the best choice for organized play.
Chief Technical Officer
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I believe it has been mentioned by Tanis or others that you can elect to not take a reward, although the Guide does not seem to explicitly say you can that.
I haven't commented on this because I haven't been able to speak with Tanis about it; she's been out sick for a few days.
Having not spoken with her, my answer is that, like everything else in the game, if a reward doesn't have the word "may" in it, it's not optional.
However, if Tanis wants to make rewards optional in OP, she has the power to do that by changing the Guide to say so.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Also, please be aware that the game is really designed around starting at the beginning and progressing through an AP in order. We have to make some concessions for OP to make it easy to put together a table of players from people with diverse backgrounds, but please recognize that the further you move away from the ideal, the more likely you will approach the wobbly untested edges of the universe where fun may cease to exist.
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Chief Technical Officer
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On the other hand, I've been wondering, looking ahead to next season, whether there are going to be restrictions about using the same character for more than one season's scenarios. What would stop someone from playing Adventure 1 of Season 0, then Season 1, then Season 2, before going on to Adventure 2. They'd be ridiculously over-feated by the time they reached Adventure 5-6 at that rate. I know this is kind of out of the scope of the current topic, though.I would not expect you'll be able to play characters from one season to the next without restarting from scratch.
PACG does not have a long life for characters. Characters that were run in Rise of the Runelords cannot be then run in Skull & Shackles without starting out as a new character. I'd expect the same with the Organized Play. Any character that you ran during Season 0 would probably (need to) be restarted at the beginning of Season 1.
Please remember that Season 0 is Season 0 for a reason—we have many things to work out here, and the inter-season connection is one of them.
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Also, please be aware that the game is really designed around starting at the beginning and progressing through an AP in order. We have to make some concessions for OP to make it easy to put together a table of players from people with diverse backgrounds, but please recognize that the further you move away from the ideal, the more likely you will approach the wobbly untested edges of the universe where fun may cease to exist.
It's a good idea in theory, but is realistically very difficult if not impossible in real application.
Right now, I've abandoned our current schedule to work solely on getting everyone caught up. It'll probably take several weeks, but no biggie. But what happens if a brand new player suddenly shows up right when we've finally got everyone up to 0-3D? Scrap everything and start over to get them caught up?
I think the "playing in order" mentality of the card game needs to be reevaluated for organized play. The base game works fine in this capacity, but organized play is much too unpredictable and sporadic with rotating players to actually make this work well.
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I believe it has been mentioned by Tanis or others that you can elect to not take a reward, although the Guide does not seem to explicitly say you can that.I haven't commented on this because I haven't been able to speak with Tanis about it; she's been out sick for a few days.
Having not spoken with her, my answer is that, like everything else in the game, if a reward doesn't have the word "may" in it, it's not optional.
However, if Tanis wants to make rewards optional in OP, she has the power to do that by changing the Guide to say so.
Sorry to hear that she's under the weather. Tell her to get better or else we'll sic a shark on her. (No evade!)
An issue about rewards and when you take them is that they may not be a good choice at the time of the scenario. For instance, Power Feats. Each base character has 4 power feats to choose from before choosing a role. Tarlin has two different options, increase his hand size from 5 to 6, 7, 8 and/or increase his heal to +2. What happens to characters that the only option left is to increase their hand size and you don't want to. The abuse of this is saving all your power feats for roles. I realize that. At least we didn't have to choose 4 power feats prior to our role.
We would like to find out if we are required to take the reward when we earn them or can save them (in some fashion) for later. And not necessarily having to replay the scenario to utilize the saved reward.
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Please remember that Season 0 is Season 0 for a reason—we have many things to work out here, and the inter-season connection is one of them.
Yup, completely understand this. I just don't want people to start thinking that they'll definitely carry over characters to another season. Rather that is a surprise.
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Also, please be aware that the game is really designed around starting at the beginning and progressing through an AP in order. We have to make some concessions for OP to make it easy to put together a table of players from people with diverse backgrounds, but please recognize that the further you move away from the ideal, the more likely you will approach the wobbly untested edges of the universe where fun may cease to exist.
And that is why we try to do catch-up sessions when we can. Some people are playing sporadically and that's up to them. But for a scenario like 3D, the party will need to be up to date (for the Adventure) or they will suffer. I don't mind that so much. But having people do scenarios in a specific order isn't very realistic. You're going to have real-life issues and failures that will make serial play tough.
I agree with Theryon here Vic. You can't count on a regular table every week (or else people would probably not play in OP) so there's going to be people with gaps if we only play in order; but that causes people who do come every week to suffer.
Even my very regular OP group has had to have catch up sessions for some people. When I set up my new location, I expect 1 table to do catch up while the other does the newest AP (and even then I would expect an extra week or two for people who miss scenarios)
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Chief Technical Officer
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Also, please be aware that the game is really designed around starting at the beginning and progressing through an AP in order. We have to make some concessions for OP to make it easy to put together a table of players from people with diverse backgrounds, but please recognize that the further you move away from the ideal, the more likely you will approach the wobbly untested edges of the universe where fun may cease to exist.It's a good idea in theory, but is realistically very difficult if not impossible in real application.
Right now, I've abandoned our current schedule to work solely on getting everyone caught up. It'll probably take several weeks, but no biggie. But what happens if a brand new player suddenly shows up right when we've finally got everyone up to 0-3D? Scrap everything and start over to get them caught up?
I think the "playing in order" mentality of the card game needs to be reevaluated for organized play. The base game works fine in this capacity, but organized play is much too unpredictable and sporadic with rotating players to actually make this work well.
Redesigning OP so that you can play any scenario with any character at any time might be "a good idea in theory, but is realistically very difficult if not impossible in real application."
Pulvia, why doesn't your wife just replay the failed scenario solo (or duo with you) quick before the next session? I know there are rules for that in the OP guide.
Personal answer, but it's mostly just an issue of time. We both work full time and are taking full time collage course loads right now. She is also not as huge of a fan of the game as I am. It's not that we CAN'T catch her up, it's a lack of time and the lack of desire to put what little time we have alone together into playing the game (on her end).
This question relates to organized PACG Guild play, both solo and with other Players. I realize it is a "late" question, too.
1. With my friend, I play Scenario # 2-1C with Alchemist Damiel # 1004. (By "my friend" I'm not referring to Damiel.) At conclusion, deck upgrade choices are Ally B and Item B. At the time, in Damiel's Cards List he cannot have an Ally. He enjoys all his Items, and doesn't desire deck upgrade Item B. I'm right that Damiel can "skip" the deck upgrade and possibly replay Scenario # 2-1C later to see if he might obtain a desirable deck upgrade (and possibly Reward)?
2. Damiel # 1004 plays Scenario # 2-1E all alone and of the available deck upgrades the only one he cares about is Ally B. At the time, in Damiel's Cards List he cannot have an Ally. Regardless, Damiel chooses as his deck upgrade Ally B. Is this legal?
I think that you can not save upgrades... You just miss them if you don't take them. IMHO.
I have not read from any rules that you can save them...
It may have been better to start a new thread for this. This thread has two themes (A) what scenarios you can replay and (B) if you can opt not to take a reward, and take it later after replaying the scenario. The discussion of (A) in this thread is obsolete; it has been replaced by the rules of the tier system.
As for (B), it's unclear. Vic in this thread says it's not optional, and I can't find anything to supersede that. But if it's not optional, why is there a "Taking Reward" section on the chronicle sheet?
As for your questions:
(1) Hinges on the unclear concept. My thought is the "Taking Reward" section indicates you can do what you ask.
(2) No. You can't choose as an upgrade a card type you can't put in your deck. There is no way to save upgrades until you get the card feat.
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This question relates to organized PACG Guild play, both solo and with other Players. I realize it is a "late" question, too.
1. With my friend, I play Scenario # 2-1C with Alchemist Damiel # 1004. (By "my friend" I'm not referring to Damiel.) At conclusion, deck upgrade choices are Ally B and Item B. At the time, in Damiel's Cards List he cannot have an Ally. He enjoys all his Items, and doesn't desire deck upgrade Item B. I'm right that Damiel can "skip" the deck upgrade and possibly replay Scenario # 2-1C later to see if he might obtain a desirable deck upgrade (and possibly Reward)?
2. Damiel # 1004 plays Scenario # 2-1E all alone and of the available deck upgrades the only one he cares about is Ally B. At the time, in Damiel's Cards List he cannot have an Ally. Regardless, Damiel chooses as his deck upgrade Ally B. Is this legal?
elcoderdude is correct.
1) If you have played a scenario and completed it, you are allowed to Take the Reward. If you choose not to take the reward, you cannot replay the scenario again to take the reward later. Doesn't matter what the reward is, once you (initially) complete a scenario, that's when you can take it.If you replay a completed scenario later, the only thing you're allowed to get from it is your singular upgrade.
(This follows the rule that you can only get a reward from completing a scenario or adventure once. If you completed the scenario again, you may not receive the reward again. Taking the Reward is a conscious choice.)
2) No. If you are not able to take an upgrade for a card type that your character deck may not contain (at that time). CD Sajan may not take an Armor as an upgrade ever. CD Harsk may not take a Spell until he gains a card feat and selects Spell.
The way I indicated #1 for people who passed on the reward is I checked the "Taking Reward" box, but then in the reward section wrote "DNT" (short for "Did Not Take"). That way a future replay in a different table would see at a glance that scenario being previously completed successfully so as to not be eligible for the reward again, while also indicating that nothing came of said reward. The only time Taking Reward would be unchecked would be if either the scenario was not completed successfully or if one replayed a scenario that was previously completed successfully.
elcoderdude and Theryon are correct on the upgrade front -- you cannot "bank" upgrades for later. Just like all other rewards (both in OP and the home game), it's take-them-or-leave-them.
The way I indicated #1 for people who passed on the reward is I checked the "Taking Reward" box, but then in the reward section wrote "DNT" (short for "Did Not Take"). That way a future replay in a different table would see at a glance that scenario being previously completed successfully so as to not be eligible for the reward again, while also indicating that nothing came of said reward. The only time Taking Reward would be unchecked would be if either the scenario was not completed successfully or if one replayed a scenario that was previously completed successfully.
This treats "Taking Reward" as if it was "Earned Reward". Maybe that makes more sense, but it's not the clear intent.
Tanis, can you clarify if it is legal to turn down a reward in order to replay the scenario later and take the reward?
I don't think you should be able to. It's gaming the system.
Thanks for the help. It makes a lot of sense, too.
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The way I indicated #1 for people who passed on the reward is I checked the "Taking Reward" box, but then in the reward section wrote "DNT" (short for "Did Not Take"). That way a future replay in a different table would see at a glance that scenario being previously completed successfully so as to not be eligible for the reward again, while also indicating that nothing came of said reward. The only time Taking Reward would be unchecked would be if either the scenario was not completed successfully or if one replayed a scenario that was previously completed successfully.This treats "Taking Reward" as if it was "Earned Reward". Maybe that makes more sense, but it's not the clear intent.
Tanis, can you clarify if it is legal to turn down a reward in order to replay the scenario later and take the reward?
I don't think you should be able to. It's gaming the system.
I thought it was established in Season 0 that if you do not take the reward, it was gone. This was established when feats were attached to scenarios, etc. and you couldn't game the system in order to pick up prior Power Feats after the Role card was picked.
I thought it was established in Season 0 that if you do not take the reward, it was gone. This was established when feats were attached to scenarios, etc. and you couldn't game the system in order to pick up prior Power Feats after the Role card was picked.
This sounds familiar, but I can't find it in the forums.
All I can find on this question is Vic's post above. I also found a thread in which Vic redirected me back to that post.
OK, the current PSACG guide has this line in the example on page 13:
Next, Alex plays Scenario 1B and wins, opting to take the scenario reward, but not getting a random reward that she liked.
This makes taking the reward sound optional.
(Incidently, NyteJKL, it confirms your conclusion: once you've drawn the card, you've taken the award, even if you don't put the card in your deck.)
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OK, the current PSACG guide has this line in the example on page 13:
Next, Alex plays Scenario 1B and wins, opting to take the scenario reward, but not getting a random reward that she liked.This makes taking the reward sound optional.
(Incidently, NyteJKL, it confirms your conclusion: once you've drawn the card, you've taken the award, even if you don't put the card in your deck.)
I disagree, elcoderdude. (About the optional part. The other part about pulling the card and not using it still counts as Taking the Reward. Again, discussed in Season 0.)
"Opting" is not the same a optional. You can opt to take the reward or opt to not take the reward. If you choose not to take it, doesn't mean you can take it later if you replay. I still think this was brought up in Season 0 where you choose either to take the reward or not to take the reward and that was it.
In any case, I have never let players opt not to take the reward and replay the scenario to gain it later.
You could be right.
It seems odd that in your scenario, it seems you would still need to check "Taking Reward" (because you earned it) even if you opt not to take it.