Multiple Natural Attacks

[Avoron]

Is there a rule preventing creatures from attacking with multiple natural attacks from the same limb or part of the body during a single full-attack action?

Examples:
a tiefling alchemist with the alternate racial trait for claws and feral mutagen to get four claws
a barbarian with Lesser Fiend Totem and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord to get two gores

All of the relevant rules text seems to refer only to the combining of manufactured and natural attacks, and not to the use of multiple natural attacks.

Natural Attack Rules from the Bestiary:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Natural Attack Rules from the Core Rulebook:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I don't think so. I think the way to get multiple claw attacks is to Wild Shape into a Tiger, Beast Shape into an Aurimvorax, or Monstrous Physique into a 4-armed Sahaugin.

I don't think that getting a Bite Attack twice gets you 2 bite attacks. You generally can't make more than 1 attack with the same limb. As you observed, you can't make a longsword attack with the same hand you make a claw attack with.

It seems that you can make a bite attack with the same head you made a Gore attack with. You can make a Slam Attack in the same round as you made a Claw attack, but you don't necessarily make slam attacks with any particular limb: there are creatures with no discernable anatomy that can make slam attacks.

[Quintain]

Other than bite and gore, you need one limb available to correspond the natural attack with -- so, a tiefling alchemist that already has two claws gains nothing from feral mutagen, as feral mutagen does not state that you grow extra limbs. The assumption in the description is that you are a standard humanoid that doesn't already have claws.

Same for Barbarian -- if you don't have a second head, you can't get two gore attacks.

[Chess Pwn]

standard races can ever only have 1 bite attack and 2 claw attacks. You can't get gain more than that with a standard race body.

[Avoron]

I definitely agree that doing things like attacking with two claws on the same arm is probably not intended.

However, my problem is that I can't find an actual rule that says this.

Scott, you can't attack with a sword and a claw with the same arm, but you can definitely, say, attack with a sword twice, or attack with a sword, drop it, and punch with a spiked gauntlet.

The problem is that there are specific rules for just manufactured weapons (i.e. using one arm twice doesn't matter), and there are specific rules for combining the two (i.e. using one arm twice does matter), but I can't find any rules like that for just using natural weapons.

So, do you think that the intended rule (for humanoid-shaped creatures) is something like this?:
Bite/Gore = maximum 1 per head
Claw/Pincer = maximum 1 per arm
Hoof/Talon = maximum 1 per leg
Wing = maximum 1 per wing
Tail Slap = maximum 1 per tail
Tentacle = any number
Sting/Other = use common sense
Slam = ??????

[Gramlag]

aside from slams as i have no idea how those are governed you are only allowed one natural attack per apendage as per the million of examples in the bestiary. technically humans only get one attack per limb as base and only via class levels and BAB they get more. only differenece is most core races arnt proficient in natural attacks so that probly plays a role

[Scott Wilhelm]

Well, what gives you iterative attacks with manufactured weapons with the same hand is a high BAB. If you have a high enough BAB, you can make one of those attacks with the sword and one of those with a spiked gauntlet, even if you are using the same hand.

Having another natural attack gives you another attack/round as part of your full attack.

Avoron wrote:

The problem is that there are specific rules for just manufactured weapons (i.e. using one arm twice doesn't matter), and there are specific rules for combining the two (i.e. using one arm twice does matter), but I can't find any rules like that for just using natural weapons.

Yes. That is the problem. I don't think the rules you are looking for exist. Feral Combat Training will let you use Flurry of Blows with your Natural Weapon or use feats such as Snake Fang or Panther Claw to use your Natural Weapons to get bonus attacks. You can use Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack with your natural weapons, including, I'm nearly sure your brilliant idea of holding a manufactured weapon with reach to hit everyone within 10' and using your Claw to hit your opponents adjacent to you.

If even a Balor Demon loses his Whip and Sword, he is reduced to 2 Slam Attacks.

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

You only get one claw attack per arm because you only have one claw per arm.

[Claxon]

Quote:

Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. The natural attacks by size table lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.

Some creatures treat one or more of their attacks differently, such as dragons, which always receive 1-1/2 times their Strength bonus on damage rolls with their bite attack. These exceptions are noted in the creature's description.

Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack's original type.

Some creatures do not have natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes just like humans do. See the natural attacks by size table for typical damage values for natural attacks by creature size.

The above in bold gives rise to the basic principle that each limb allows for only one attack in a round. You cannot double stack natural attacks onto a single limb.

The only apparent exception is having both a gore and bite, which would both ostensibly be associated with the head.

[Avoron]

Durngrun: There are multiple ways to get claws, and the rules don't stop you from putting more than one set on an arm. That could be pretty cool, actually.
And if the realism/flavor of it bothers you, what about situations where it sort of makes sense, like my second example? There's nothing stopping you from getting both tusks and horns.

Claxon: That section specifically deals with combining natural attacks and manufactured weapons. You can still make two sword attacks with the same arm, even though you can't make a sword and a claw attack with the same arm.
What I'm looking for is rules concerning making two claw attacks with the same arm.

And it looks like there aren't any. I guess I'll just have to hope that most other people agree with my (and the other posters', apparently) instincts that it shouldn't be allowed.

[Claxon]

Avoron wrote:

Durngrun: There are multiple ways to get claws, and the rules don't stop you from putting more than one set on an arm. That could be pretty cool, actually.

And if the realism/flavor of it bothers you, what about situations where it sort of makes sense, like my second example? There's nothing stopping you from getting both tusks and horns.

Claxon: That section specifically deals with combining natural attacks and manufactured weapons. You can still make two sword attacks with the same arm, even though you can't make a sword and a claw attack with the same arm.
What I'm looking for is rules concerning making two claw attacks with the same arm.

And it looks like there aren't any. I guess I'll just have to hope that most other people agree with my (and the other posters', apparently) instincts that it shouldn't be allowed.

Specifically, yes, but the rules are extrapolated. I believe it's been referenced by developers in discussion that you can't have multiple natural attacks on the same limb, but there is no clear and obvious rule stating it. The above that I quoted is the closest thing you will find I think.

[fretgod99]

It likely isn't a rule because it's one of those things you'd never think about until somebody tries to pull it in a game. Then you're stuck going, "Why would you be able to do that? That's ridiculous!" and the other person responds with, "Yeah? Show me a rule that says I can't." And you go, "... f*#&."

In other words, it's something that shouldn't need to be a rule, because it's obvious. But ...

The only one I've ever really had a question about is the Bite/Gore thing. I believe there might be some monsters that do it and it doesn't seem like a wholly unreasonable thing to do, unlike claws upon claws upon claws on the same two arms.

[Claxon]

And we could go back to the old standby which is:

Pathfinder, rules tell you what you are allowed to do, not what you aren't allowed to do (for the most part).

[Durngrun Stonebreaker]

FAQ

[Quintain]

Avoron wrote:

Is there a rule preventing creatures from attacking with multiple natural attacks from the same limb or part of the body during a single full-attack action?

Examples:
a tiefling alchemist with the alternate racial trait for claws and feral mutagen to get four claws
a barbarian with Lesser Fiend Totem and a Helm of the Mammoth Lord to get two gores

All of the relevant rules text seems to refer only to the combining of manufactured and natural attacks, and not to the use of multiple natural attacks.
** spoiler omitted **...

Yes, there is a rule against using the same natural attack multiple times in the same full attack sequence. Its the fact that you are attacking with natural weapons, and not manufactured weapons. It is simply the way that natural weapon attacks are resolved that prevents what you are trying. Natural weapons use a full BAB for each and every primary attack per natural weapon. You also get one attack per secondary weapon. At no point (barring effects like haste) can you attack more than once with a specific natural weapon in a round.

Manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes allow this because you are losing -5 on your BAB for each attack with the same weapon. They are different.

Now, you could invent a feat that works similar to Feral combat training that would allow you to choose to treat a natural weapon like a manufactured weapon/unarmed strike, but without an exception like a feat in the rules, what you are trying is impossible.

[Avoron]

Durngrun: Thank you. That FAQ is exactly what I was looking for.

[fretgod99]

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:

FAQ

Ah right. Forgot about that one.