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From one old guy to another, IMO "Haul" is correct - It's a deliberate pun.
I can accept that. But I reserve the right to be grumpy while doing so.
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Dang nabbit! Get off my lawn!
Although i'm glad 38 isn't considered old anymore:-p
....However i have a strong desire to get a wildly impractical car, boat and/or motorhome.
but i'm cheap and this is the liberal triangle off our state so i'll probably settle for a garishly ugly bike and and biker shorts like everyone else here my age:-p
Most likely i'll just keep with my attitude that age is just a number:-)
its fun to have the internet working again:-)
I'm not going to go part by part, but you are really, really underestimating the potential impact of those haunts. A number of them are dangerous on their own, and several less dangerous ones can cascade into each other or into other encounters through fear effects, etc.
I had a couple deaths averted by narrowly-made saves in my run of it, and I think gear was involved in raising those.
EDIT: It's also really easy for the Sanatorium to cascade into a running fight against everything in there; it doesn't really take much to set Habe off to where he sics the tieflings on the group and from there it just rolls on.
Also don't forget the effect of terrain on combat. For instance, six ghouls in a wide open area? A threat. Four ghasts scrambling up a slippery slope and having to either make climb checks (and I believe you can't fight and climb) or acrobatics checks to move more normally... and unable to all attack at once? Somewhat more dangerous but not hugely so, especially if there's a cleric handy.
Generally speaking if someone is dismissing haunts more often then not a Paladin was in the party, or a well rested Cleric:-p
Also don't forget the effect of terrain on combat. For instance, six ghouls in a wide open area? A threat. Four ghasts scrambling up a slippery slope and having to either make climb checks (and I believe you can't fight and climb) or acrobatics checks to move more normally... and unable to all attack at once? Somewhat more dangerous but not hugely so, especially if there's a cleric handy.
+1 - the ghasts die really fast if you have any kind of archer in the party as well.. I know that from personal experience.
The ghouls on the other hand can be pretty nasty when your party decides to investigate separate sides of the farmhouse at the same time...
Much of what makes fights tough or easy ends up being your players and how they react to the situation.
I'm not going to go part by part, but you are really, really underestimating the potential impact of those haunts.
When I ran this part, I found I overestimated the effect of the haunts.
Only the persistent ones are really dangerous, and those are rare. The others only take effect once and then it's over. Between the perception checks to spot them in advance and the saves the party has a good chance to deal with them.
If you have a paladin in the party you will find that they ROFLstomp this section and will be bored by the time you are done.
Another factor is the number of players. If you have more than four players then the number of haunts that affect all characters will be reduced. I would recommend taking one category of haunts and dividing it between two players, so that the number of haunts that potentially affect all players is the same.
Also you should have a game plan for if the haunted character doesn't enter the room; once my party figured out how haunts worked, only certain people (who were resistant or had high perception) would bother entering rooms. I allowed the haunts to affect a character that was in LOS from the open doorway, if the haunt was keyed to that character.
Well, for one thing, the ability to recover from encounters and press on without having to rest is largely down to wealth, right? Wands, potions, etc. Especially if you decide to burn positive energy healing things on disrupting haunts instead. And a number of those haunts will do damage or put characters in situations where they'll take damage indirectly, etc. There's going to be table variance on this, but I would hope most groups would be in a hurry to get the manor explored rather than resting a lot, given that there's a serial killer needing to be stopped.
At the extreme end, it only takes a couple failed rolls on the suicide compulsion or plummeting inferno haunts for the group to be looking for a raise dead, but a lot of the haunts will drain resources.
I'm also not sure I buy that it's super easy for a party to go around just stopping the haunts before they happen, even with a paladin:
1) They have to know how haunts can be stopped in the first place - my party couldn't figure it out and failed the Religion check I gave them to do it, so that was that for them.
2) The character with the positive energy needs to make their Perception check in order to even have a chance to get it before it goes off.
3) Even if they make the Perception check, they have to beat the haunt's initiative.
4) They have to be close enough to the haunt to affect it - remember that haunt effects happen in a *surprise round* so you can't move and lay hands on it - you'll have to be adjacent already or burn a channel.
5) They still have to hit, if laying hands, and they have to roll high enough on their damage, neither of which are automatic; a 4th/5th level paladin, which is the expected level when entering the manor, has lay on hands damage of 2d6, and there are only a couple haunts in the manor where average damage on 2d6 would take it down.
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I agreed with you on this...right up until the minute I read on a different thread that the sizable troll population in Kaer Maga would probably be a good place to unload Large-sized weapons, and the City of Strangers is not all that far from Turtleback Ferry...
I'm pretty sure that the good trolls of Kaer Maga would sneer on the suggestion that they use ogre weapons. ^^
Personally, I rather like the idea of adding more treasure to the AP to make up for removing Ogre Hooks and Ogre-sized Hide Armor. It allows me to add custom items to the treasure and complement characters who might not have recently seen items that would benefit them. I find my players appreciate this.
Seriously. What are the players going to do with half a dozen large-sized +1 Ogre Hooks and a half dozen large-sized +1 Hide Armors? Sell them. That's all. And so they're lugging these things around until they DO sell them.
If I add some items that the group might find of use, however, then the group may end up using them. You can even mix and match things... or find ways of helping with weak points. The barbarian has a low will save? Add an item that increases will saves and lets them get a reroll if they are Dominated (and in doing so the item is destroyed). The wizard slowing people down because of his 8 strength? Toss in some Muleback Cords so he can carry a lot more.
Further, it allows you to add a couple higher-price items. I can take that half dozen Ogre Hooks and Hide Armors and instead include a 15,000 GP magic item. So much of the treasure becomes so generic and just something to be sold that consolidating stuff and adding higher-price items can provide players with something exciting with their treasure.
Best of all, the monsters can use these items against the party... rather than just having something like a magic staff lying in a treasure horde forgotten for millennia.
In my campaign, I had the wealthy of Magnimar all want to have these Giant sized relics, (armor and weapons) as a status symbol. And mayor Groboras will facilitate the sale of these to the wealthy, for a small cut.
I added this in after the giant attack on sandpoint. With all the news of giants running about, it became the 'in' thing to have a souvenir.
This way , the party can get all the gold from an otherwise mostly useless pile of gear, that most normal merchants wouldn't buy.
I can certainly envision a city like Magnimar having an elite class of guards/mercenaries who have had an enlarge person made permanent on them. Guys like that will be in the market for large gear.
1) They have to know how haunts can be stopped in the first place - my party couldn't figure it out and failed the Religion check I gave them to do it, so that was that for them.
My party had done the chopper's isle mini-adventure from Wayfinder #7 and had encountered haunts before. I figured it made good foreshadowing.
2) The character with the positive energy needs to make their Perception check in order to even have a chance to get it before it goes off.
Three of my party of 5 have good perception rolls and one of them is the party channeler (an oracle of life). The sorcerer and paladin do not have high perception but do have positive energy attacks.
3) Even if they make the Perception check, they have to beat the haunt's initiative.
Fifty-fifty chance with no DEX bonus. Typically the majority of characters will win initiative against the haunt.
4) They have to be close enough to the haunt to affect it - remember that haunt effects happen in a *surprise round* so you can't move and lay hands on it - you'll have to be adjacent already or burn a channel.
The rooms are pretty small and often that haunt inhabits the entire room. Even if it doesn't a 5' step is usually enough to get you there. And if not, I see no reason you couldn't charge and attack with a lay on hands.
On the other hand, if you detect the haunt but can't affect it, you just leave the room.
5) They still have to hit, if laying hands, and they have to roll high enough on their damage, neither of which are automatic; a 4th/5th level paladin, which is the expected level when entering the manor, has lay on hands damage of 2d6, and there are only a couple haunts in the manor where average damage on 2d6 would take it down.
Hitting is a touch attack so it's going to hit most of the time that someone rolls.
My party's elven paladin uses her favoured class bonus to boost her channel so she did 2d6+2 damage. The one time she was able to act before the haunt went off she used this successfully. The party Sorcerer could also cast disrupt undead for an extra 1d6 if necessary.
The point though is that the non-persistent haunts have a single effect that can be beaten by a successful save. So even after all these ways that the haunt can be beaten before it goes off, it can still be beaten by a roll. If you have a paladin in the party that roll is going to be fairly easy if people stay close to the paladin (which they will once they figure things out).
If there were elite guards with a permanent Enlarge Person (which is foolish really, you give them potions of Enlarge Person for use when needed - otherwise you need giant-sized housing for them and greater amounts of food to feed them) then you'd see properly-made large-size weapons for them. They'd not want magical ogre hide armor or magical ogre hooks because those are crude weapons even if fairly powerful ones. For an elite guard you want weaponry that matches that status.
Try again.
Can't you sell them back to Mokmurian, seems like he might want it back:-p
If there were elite guards with a permanent Enlarge Person (which is foolish really, you give them potions of Enlarge Person for use when needed - otherwise you need giant-sized housing for them and greater amounts of food to feed them)
A potion of enlarge person only lasts one minute. This is a really poor long-term strategy.
For the price of 50 potions you can have enlarge person made permanent. In the long term this is a very good deal. Major battles can last hours and the last thing you need is your troops spending one tenth of their actions pulling out and drinking potions. I would only say this is a good idea if they have some way of drinking options as a swift action, and even then you are going to spend a lot more cash in the long run.
A big part of the value of large troops is that they are seen. The morale effect on the average guy knowing he is going up against giants is significant (hence the +4 bonus to intimidate), which means you want guys to be large for more than just the moment they are in contact with the enemy.
The cost of food and lodgings for a large human would be about 8 times that of a medium human. Significantly more, but still quite manageable considering how much we saved on not constantly buying potions.
then you'd see properly-made large-size weapons for them. They'd not want magical ogre hide armor or magical ogre hooks because those are crude weapons ...
This is true for lots of treasure that is found in the game. Not just that which is found on larger creatures.
Why would medium +1 hide armor be sellable? Unless you are selling to druids a masterwork breastplate is both far superior and also cheaper. Yet you find a lot of items in published material that the player characters would never touch with a 10-foot pole. Once I saw a DEX 12 minor villain who was equipped with +1 padded armor. I mean, really? A big part of why these are in there is to simply exist as treasure.
Another example, I am running Rise of the Runelords right now and we recently finished the Seven's Sawmill.
Items like that are included in adventures to mitigate power levels of enemies and still provide treasure.
If you are legitimately objecting to inefficiently thought-out gear then you need to be going through most of your adventures and re-think people's gear. Does that guy really need the extra max dex bonus that +1 leather armor gets him over masterwork studded leather which costs only 175 gp instead of 1160 gp?
It's a valid gripe, but it flies in the face of one of the main systems in the game. So you can invoke this problem but doing so adds a lot of work, and I'm not sure it's worth it.
Considering a Druid cannot wear Studded leather? Then yes, magical Hide or Leather armor is a good investment. Heck, rogues would likely use magical leather armor as only a rules-savvy player would realize that magical studded leather provides no penalties to abilities - and even then, a high-dexterity character might be better off with the magic leather over magic studded leather due to maximum dexterity concerns.
Next, you have the limited time that a potion would provide. Why is that a bad thing? You use it right before you need it, and then it goes away after the battle is done. Most fights last three to four rounds - a matter of half a minute. Any fight that lasts for one minute? Well, assuming that the elite fighters are 4th level... they probably died in the fight. Because any fight that lasts a minute is going to be one where the large enemy is hit by multiple opponents with missile fire and melee attacks because he's the most visible target and considered the greatest threat.
So. Do you have 50 men who are Enlarged for 1 minute? Or do you have one man who is Permanently Enlarged and then dies within one minute of fighting and demoralizes your forces because The Big Guy just died?
Try again.
Considering a Druid cannot wear Studded leather? Then yes, magical Hide or Leather armor is a good investment.
Druids are a special case. They are pretty rare, especially in the kinds of markets where this sort of stuff gets sold, and they are fairly likely to be able to make their own stuff. And if you are saying that +1 hide armor is a valid choice because druids, well there will be ogre and troll druids too.
But it's actually not a bad idea for there to be some sort of "druidic trading post" that you could incorporate into your campaign world, where that type of people drop in to trade with the outside world.
Heck, rogues would likely use magical leather armor as only a rules-savvy player
You pretty much blow it right here as we are talking about NPCs. And an NPC rogue (or any class for that matter) should know the pros and cons of the various types of armor that he is trained to use.
even then, a high-dexterity character might be better off with the magic leather over magic studded leather due to maximum dexterity concerns.
The net AC in this case will be the same. But a rogue with a 22+ DEX can probably do a lot better than +1 leather.
Next, you have the limited time that a potion would provide. Why is that a bad thing?
I already explained why, but let me elaborate.
Firstly, we are not talking about adventurers. Adventurers are extraordinary people who are few and far between. What we are talking about are soldiers.
Land battles involving armies of soldiers armed with melee weapons tend to last for hours - or sometimes even days. The "three or four round fight" is something that is common in adventures but has little to do with the experience of most soldiers. In context a typical "battle" should include dozens of the kinds of "fights" you are talking about.
Secondly, one of the main advantages of having large troops around is that seeing them is likely to make potential enemies reconsider fighting. But if you want your large troops to be seen by large numbers of people they need to be enlarged for long periods of time.
It would be fairly easy to optimize a character around the idea of being large all the time. And the price is good.
If you could "civilize" ogres then it would be more effective to just hire them instead. But they (Paizo and WotC) seem to go out of their way to avoid having any good or lawful giants, except for some really powerful high level ones. I'd like there to be situations like this or this but the only way to get that kind of thing in a Paizo campaign world is by enlarging people.
The bottom line is that the fact that it is possible in the game to make a humanoid permanently large means there should be some places where this would is encountered. And it seems that large capital cities are probably your best bet.
Because any fight that lasts a minute is going to be one where the large enemy is hit by multiple opponents with missile fire and melee attacks because he's the most visible target and considered the greatest threat.
We are not talking about one guy. We are talking about a hundred of them, an actual military unit full of them. And if you can afford to spend 2,500 on enlarge then you can also afford to spend money on good armor. So they are not going to be easy to pick off by common soldiers.
And you know what? AC is only -1 for large creatures, while firing into melee against someone with cover is still -8. Your squadron of enlarged fighters isn't in that much danger, and they can dish out damage that much faster. At range their composite bows will likely be doing 2d6+4 damage (feats notwithstanding) compared to the 1d8+3 of the equivalent enemies.
For the record if people in Magnimar can afford a bunch of Angelic Guardians at 22,000 gp a pop they can certainly afford a unit of enlarged fighters.
So. Do you have 50 men who are Enlarged for 1 minute? Or do you have one man who is Permanently Enlarged...
It would be quite reasonable to give enlarge person potions to your throwaway Warrior 2's. You aren't going to permanently enlarge someone like that; you don't expect that many of them to survive. But a group of elite Fighter 6's (or cavaliers, or barbarians, or whatever)? Yeah, there would be definite advantages to it.
The place where your logic seems to keep falling apart is that you are applying the experience of player characters in an adventure and assuming that NPCs experience things the same way. They don't. That's why they are NPCs.
Try again.
Please actually refute something I say before saying "try again."
I think the number of people who would want to have all the inconvenience in their lives that a permanent enlarge person would bring is probably quite low. I mean, you don't fit into normal buildings anymore, you have a really hard time dating, good luck finding a horse that can carry you, etc. etc. etc. The idea stretches verisimilitude, at least for normal human type cities.
I think the number of people who would want to have all the inconvenience in their lives that a permanent enlarge person would bring is probably quite low. I mean, you don't fit into normal buildings anymore, you have a really hard time dating, good luck finding a horse that can carry you, etc. etc. etc. The idea stretches verisimilitude, at least for normal human type cities.
That is why there is progression. You now date the horse and mount an elephant.
Also there are half ogres for a reason. Apparently you can still date once you become large. It actually might help some people in their dating relationship.
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I'm pretty sure Ogres and Ogrekin don't date.
their "mating habits" definitely gravitate towards the unspeakable and grotesque, and should never be brought up again:-)
Since the derail is in full swing, I'll just point out: Look at eBay or Sotheby's.
People buy any old crap because they think it's "cool".
A rusty old bayonet from the Civil War? Worth a mint! A blunderbuss from the 1600's? Priceless! (Especially if I'm getting my century wrong.) Items so foul you would want to put on rubber gloves before throwing them in the outside trash? Art!
Rather than asking, "Who would use a large +1 ogre hook?", ask, "Are there enough eccentric collectors out there who would purchase the thing as an artwork, hang in on the wall in their den, and then brag about how it's an 'authentic' piece used by 'one of the foot soldiers in a real ogre army that was planning on invading Varisia before one of my good friends, an adventurer of some repute, put an end to him.'"
Makes for a good story, and lets you sell the very odd stuff that's supposed to be worth money but that you can't imagine anyone using.
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By jove! i've been looking for a +1 Ogre Hook to hang over the Lou in my summer cottage
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@Peet, I say "try again" because your argument is ineffectual.
Let us look at the expense of having a group of Permanently Enlarged soldiers.
First: you need to hire a wizard of sufficient power to cast that spell. The spell ain't cheap - you can afford 50 potions of Enlarge Person for the cost of one Permanent Enlarge.
Second: one Large soldier isn't going to do much. Thus you need multiple guys - so say a unit of 10 Enlarged "Elite" soldiers would be the same initial cost as 500 potions of Enlarge Person.
Third: Once a weapon or armor is removed from the Enlarged Person it shrinks. So you need Large-size weapons and armor (which is where this argument started from). You can't rely on adventurers showing up with a dozen magic Ogre Hooks (nor is that a great weapon in any event for an Elite unite), and a dozen suits of large hide armor that were last worn by Ogres. Yeah. That is going to make an impression - ten men decked out in the crude enchanted armor and weapons of ogres. So you need to BUILD large-size weapons and armor. And large-size clothes. And hey, you need to Enlarge women for these soldiers because it's not like they can sleep with normal-sized women unless you're into sadism.
Fourth: These large-size soldiers will be seen coming. A group of archers can target them before the large unit enters combat without any penalties. Given that the Enlarged men aren't any faster and cannot ride mounts (unless you Enlarge horses for them)... and you're going to have these men hit multiple times before the fight truly begins. You also would see pikemen going up against these Large Soldiers because you need reach to effectively fight large soldiers to avoid AoO.
So. You have 10 or so Large sized men who are stuck that way forever. You are forced to feed them more, spend more money to equip them, and a lucky wizard with Dispel Magic could negate the Permanency. Or even the Enlarge to shrink the soldier - yes, the spell will return. But in the meantime you have a regular-sized soldier in oversized armor and weapons because you needed to equip them with large-size weapons.
So. Increased costs, further increased costs, reduced effectiveness in the field, morale issues... no. It doesn't work. Especially as you can for the cost of 10 Permanently Enlarged people instead have 500 potions of Enlarge Person, and have them all quaff just before the fight... and for one minute they're large and in charge and causing a massive morale issue. (Or you can hire a wizard with Mass Enlarge Person.)
In any event, you wouldn't be having adventurers selling crude ogre weapons and armor to equip these men, and thus outside of one or two curiosity purchases, the large number of ogre hooks and the like that the PCs will bring back will be of no value, merchants won't be buying them, and the GM is better off just adjusting the treasure to include other items instead.
Seriously. You're talking a half dozen or more 2,000 GP weapons, that according to the rules would likely be sold for half that. Just say the weapons are unsellable and include a magic item worth 12,000 gold or so that the PCs are more likely to keep.
Well I never derail anything!
yep captain yesterday always stays on topic (whatever that is)
@Peet and Tanget101: what about permanent enlarge person on halflings and gnomes:-p
tell them they can go back to their regular not so annoyingly tall forms when they buy all the f***ing ogre hooks and filthy armor:-p
or shrink the elite of Magnimar until they meet your demands, its not like you gotta go back there:-p
of course the pirates in Riddleport will buy anything!
*how is it no one has mentioned riddle port yet?*
Another options i've thought of is loading them into a big f#~&ing cart, wheeling them up to the gates of Jorgenfist and say "Let's make a deal!" of course its just a ruse to get inside Jorgenfist;-p
I guess I can try to pick it up.
What was the first book ending WBL, 30k?
According to my mythical spreadsheet, 37,539.32.
I have a major handoff on Monday, but then the kids and I are both basically off, so I'll do Book 2 and post the spreadsheet where other people can critique it.
@Peet, I say "try again" because your argument is ineffectual.
Honestly this is the way I feel about your objections. None of them have made much of an impact here.
First: you need to hire a wizard of sufficient power to cast that spell.
You need a 9th level wizard. Well within the means of any medium sized city.
The spell ain't cheap - you can afford 50 potions of Enlarge Person for the cost of one Permanent Enlarge.
A soldier who uses the tactic regularly will go through 50 potions in a few weeks. Permanency is... well, permanent. Besides that, potions on downed men can be captured by the enemy. Permanent spells cannot.
Second: one Large soldier isn't going to do much. Thus you need multiple guys - so say a unit of 10 Enlarged "Elite" soldiers...
I was thinking more along the lines of a hundred or so. Major armies usually take the field with tens of thousands of men.
And yes, the price for ten guys is indeed ten times as much as the price for one guy. It is still more cost effective in the long run per guy.
Third: Once a weapon or armor is removed from the Enlarged Person it shrinks. So you need Large-size weapons and armor (which is where this argument started from)....
Yes, this is the whole point. But large armor and weapons cost twice as much as normal. Personally I am happy to pay 30 gp for a longsword that does 2d6 damage instead of 1d8. Wouldn't you be?
The funny part is if you give the guy the medium gear you want him to have, and then enlarge him, then his gear gets permanently enlarged too. So you can pay a regular price for the first set of gear the guy goes through. The only thing you want to avoid is enlarging missile weapons, which specifically don't work this way, per the spell description.
As for people buying ogre hooks and such... well, I already refuted this argument earlier so I'm not sure why you brought it up again.
Would they buy medium sized versions of these weapons? Probably not, but it is a basic game concept that you can sell that kind of stuff. You can sell the gear you take from orcs and bugbears. You can sell the masterwork horsechopper you got off that goblin. Taking this attitude means you have to go through any adventures that involve creatures like this and re-write the gear and treasure found. If you want to do so for your campaign world, go ahead, but it goes against one of the basic assumptions of the game.
And frankly, the question of whether crude humanoid gear could be sold in a civilized area has nothing to do with whether a nation would equip units of troops with permanent enlarge person spells.
Fourth: These large-size soldiers will be seen coming.
You want them to be. This is half the point.
The elephants employed by the armies of the Carthaginians had only a small impact in the battles they fought compared to their cost. But their morale effect on their enemies was huge, and it is one of the things that Roman historians remember most about the Carthaginian armies.
A group of archers can target them before the large unit enters combat without any penalties.
I already refuted your point about the archers, but you brought it up again. So let's cover it in more detail.
1. There is no reason that large troops cannot have bows. And a large longbowman will do 64% more damage per arrow on average than a guy with a medium longbow.
2. If you are spending 2500 gp to make a guy large you are also going to spend money outfitting them well. It isn't too hard to get to or even over 20 AC with just mundane equipment. Remember also that tower shields can be used to create full cover; Roman legionnaires in tortoise formation were basically immune to archer fire. So it's reasonable to say that your archers won't score hits too often, unless they are also "elite" guys.
3. Remember that you aren't going to do the permanent enlarge procedure on just anyone. You're going to pick your hardened veterans; in game terms this means more levels. So your large guys are going to take considerably more damage to take down than your average guy.
4. You seem to think that the large troops will be operating alone. As a part of an army, of course they won't. And if the enemy commander is spending all these resources in trying to stop the "big guys" then the rest of the large force's army will have advanced unopposed and have a huge advantage.
5. Not all of the enemy force is going to consist of archers. A commander could just deploy his enlarged troops away from the area where enemy archers are concentrated.
Given that the Enlarged men aren't any faster and cannot ride mounts...
Ummm, no. Enlarged men cannot ride horses. There are plenty of huge creatures that make suitable mounts.
Besides, with the DEX penalty that comes with enlarge person, these guys probably don't mind being flat-footed and can run (just as anytone else) for 4x their regular move in one round at the cost of being flat-footed.
You also would see pikemen going up against these Large Soldiers because you need reach to effectively fight large soldiers to avoid AoO.
So what? It's a reasonable strategy. But there's no reason a large guy can't use reach weapons, and if they do their reach will exceed the pikemens'. If I was designing an enlarged unit from scratch I might go with the Phalanx Fighter archetype. Meanwhile the enemy commander has to be careful to make sure his pikemen are deployed to be the ones facing the large troops, meaning they may be out of position to face enemy cavalry.
You are forced to feed them more, spend more money to equip them,
yeah, but these differences are small compared to the original investment of the permanency. And it is worth spending extra dough on your elite troops. They are worth it. Meanwhile it is still less in the long run that your potion costs.
and a lucky wizard with Dispel Magic could negate the Permanency.
Sure. On one guy. But he will still be enlarged until the enlarge person duration expires, so likely he is enlarged for 7 or 8 more rounds. And then your wizard gets pounded on by the remaining large guys. Remember, dispelling the permanency doesn't dispel the enlarge; they are still two separate spells. It only gets the duration clock ticking again for the spell that had been permanent.
But in the meantime you have a regular-sized soldier in oversized armor and weapons because you needed to equip them with large-size weapons.
See above.
As an aside, since dispelling the permanency wouldn't get rid of the enlarge person right away, and dispelling the enlarge person would only suppress it temporarily, a better bet would be to use reduce person, which wouldn't require a caster level check and would suppress the enlarge for it's duration. Mass reduce person would be better as it gets multiple guys at once.
So. Increased costs, further increased costs,
Again, we covered this already. You are already going to spend more money on your elite troops. The question is how do you spend the money. Meanwhile the cost in the long run is less than feeding your troops potion after potion.
And here's a kicker: how many potion brewers do you have? A 9th level wizard can make one or two (if he has a high enough INT) soldiers permanently enlarged in one day. How many potions of enlarge person can he make in the same time period? One.
If you are constantly feeding potions to your troops you are going to need a large industry at home to support this, and you have to arrange to get these supplies to the field where the army is. So guess what? your potion system involves a lot of overhead on top of just what is required to pay for the potions themselves.
reducedincreased effectiveness in the field,
Fixed that for you.
Enlarge person is one of the best 1st level buffs available for a martial, and is still worth casting at high level. Yes, there are ways to try to counter it, but the fact that your enemy is forced to switch tactics to do so is one of the reasons that it is worth doing. You are dictating his tactics to him.morale issues...
The concept of successfully integrating a group of large humans into your culture on a long term basis is something that could occupy another entire thread. If you as a ruler introduced the idea as an "experiment" than you would have to work out these things - this would make an interesting part of a Kingmaker campaign. But in the long run I see no reason that a country with a tradition of having an elite "giant's legion" composed of permanently enlarged troops wouldn't have worked out the kinks long ago.
Especially as you can for the cost of 10 Permanently Enlarged people instead have 500 potions of Enlarge Person, and have them all quaff just before the fight...
I have refuted this idea over and over and you don't seem to be paying attention.
Having your force of 500 guys all quaff potions of enlarge person[i] will help you win a single engagement within a battle. It might turn the tide of the battle; it might not. But what you need to compare it to is the same group of guys, quaffing potion over and over again. If there is a war going on they have gone through their entire supply of potions in a few weeks. The war could last for years.
When it comes to magical effects, cost-wise a permanent solution is always better than consumable items in the long run.
(Or you can hire a wizard with Mass Enlarge Person.)
To compare costs, a scroll of [i]mass enlarge person will cost 700 gp and enlarge 7 guys, and will also require someone to be handy who can read the scroll. So for a temporary cost potions are a better deal, though the mass version will last 7 minutes instead of 1.
In any event, you wouldn't be having adventurers selling crude ogre weapons...
Again with this. The same logic applies to crude goblin weapons or crude orc weapons. The size of the weapons has nothing to do with this issue, nor does it have any bearing on whether a nation would employ permanently enlarged troops.
Calculated total loot in book 2: 67933 gp
16983.25 per pc54522gp total per pc is you find and sell everything.
I think you should end book 2 at level 8? The level progression is kind of weird in anniversary edition compared to other aps I think
You should finish book 2 soon after getting to level 7, going by the suggested progression.
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You are forgetting one thing tho, if a rich person is going thru all the trouble of turning people into giant size versions, he or she won't arm them like cannibal hillbillies:-p
Calculated total loot in book 2: 67933 gp
16983.25 per pc54522gp total per pc is you find and sell everything.
I think you should end book 2 at level 8? The level progression is kind of weird in anniversary edition compared to other aps I think
You should finish book 2 soon after getting to level 7, going by the suggested progression.
Yes but that's a trap - book 1 says 'they should reach level 4 just before or after the end' and in book 2 they should be level 5 before they fight anything.
So I had to toss a module into the mix to gloss that over - see the party make a side trip to Ravenmoore :)
Book two says they should be level 7 just before or after the final fight right...
And in book 3 they should hit level 8 before they really take on the grauls.
/sigh...
It's ok I've decided to expand the campaign a bit and make big K a tad mythic - as such I'm taking my guys to level 20 by the end (honestly if they fight everything they should hit 18 anyway so it's not a huge stretch).
What it does do, however, is even out the leveling which is fast an furious in the first 4 books and then slows to 2 levels per in the last two.
So I keep it at 4 levels per book and figure I can toss all the extra stuff in I want (and justify it). Assuming we don't tpk before then it should be a pretty epic finish.
At the rate we play that's still about 2 years away ... *sigh*
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If you want them to pick up the pace add an Antipaladin to the party, start pawning fiends (or any outsider they capture really) and maybe arm the homeless of Magnimar with +1 Ogre Hooks and +1 Hide Armor.
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@Peet: Reread the rules on Enlarge Person. You are using them incorrectly.
Anything released by the Enlarged person, be it a weapon or a shot arrow, returns to its original size. The only way an Enlarged Bow would fire larger arrows is if you build them that way.
Also, being able to see your enemy coming means you can target that enemy sooner. So you have a unit of Enlarged men heading toward the fight. A smart commander would order his bowmen to IMMEDIATELY start firing at the large (and more easily hit) unit. Given the range modifiers for bows and the like? They're still likely to hit, especially with sufficient numbers. As elite fighters are probably 3rd to 5th level, all you need is a dozen arrows to put one down. And suddenly you are out a significant amount of money.
The potion gambit? You have the element of surprise and you have much greater numbers for the cost. Also, you don't loot people on the battlefield in the middle of a fight. This isn't Elder Scrolls: Skyrim.
@Peet: Reread the rules on Enlarge Person. You are using them incorrectly.
OK, I can concede this point... the only way stuff will remain enlarged is if he continues to wear it forever, and obviously that isn't practical.
Nevertheless, as I already pointed out, a large longsword costs 30 gp instead of 15 gp. Not exactly a financial crisis.
Also, being able to see your enemy coming means you can target that enemy sooner.
Umm... no. You can see a large creature and a medium creature just as far away. You can start shooting at either as soon as they are in range.
A smart commander would order his bowmen to IMMEDIATELY start firing at the large (and more easily hit) unit.
Maybe he would. Compared to a person with the same base stats and gear an enlarged character has -2 to his AC.
But at maximum range you are going to be at -18 to hit (the 10th range band, 1000 feet for longbows). So the medium archers and the enlarged archers will all only hit on 20's. The difference is the enlarged archers (assuming longbows) will do on average 64% more damage per hit. So your medium archers are not going to win that duel.
Meanwhile the enlarged guys are not going to be fighting alone. The fact that your commander has ignored the rest of the enemy force gives them something of a free pass. The commander of the enlarged unit could advance his enlarged guys far enough to draw everyone's fire and then pull them back when they start to get in trouble. Meanwhile, his medium archers have been raining their arrows in the rest of his enemy's ranks and his medium footsoldiers and cavalry have advanced without facing any missile fire. This scenario is still full of win for the commander of the enlarged troops.
There are so many ways to protect yourself from arrow fire that it is pretty ridiculous to say "that won't work because archers." A unit with tower shields can be effectively immune to arrow fire from at least one direction. If you are advancing slowly (i.e. 1 move action per round) you can take the total defense action. And then there are magical solutions like wind wall or hallucinatory terrain or even obscuring mist.
The potion gambit? You have the element of surprise and you have much greater numbers for the cost.
Sure, and then it's gone. You gained an advantage in a single engagement. Nothing wrong with that, and I'm not saying it's bad. But if you want the advantage of enlarged troops with any frequency then in the long run you are better off making the spell permanent on some guys.
Also, you don't loot people on the battlefield in the middle of a fight. This isn't Elder Scrolls: Skyrim.
I've never seen Elder Scrolls: Skyrim. But it was quite common for soldiers to loot downed troops during lulls in the battle. For most medieval troops loot was a major reason for them to fight.
Since we're derailing things willy nilly here, how the heck do people play Skyrim, it seems like i can't move without getting butchered by dragons, giants or ice trolls with no chance of survival, i'm stuck perpetually at 6th level, grrr!
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Since we're derailing things willy nilly here, how the heck do people play Skyrim, it seems like i can't move without getting butchered by dragons, giants or ice trolls with no chance of survival, i'm stuck perpetually at 6th level, grrr!
Hey, CWheezy and I *tried*! :-P
I think it's much like playing Sona in League of Legends -- you just mash your face against the keyboard, roll it around, and hope for good things.
Well I play on an xbox360 if I start wooing and mashing my face into a keyboard questions will follow:-p
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Honestly, I think the greatest favors ever done for me were by complete jerks:
- If I mis-used "its/it's" or "they're/there/their" in an English paper, I got an automatic 0 on the entire paper.
- If I made a mistake while driving, my driving instructor slammed on the brakes, yelled, "BAM! YOU'RE DEAD!", and my turn was over.Kind of made me remember proper grammar and proper driving. Go figure.
Sounds like this.
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Since we're derailing things willy nilly here, how the heck do people play Skyrim, it seems like i can't move without getting butchered by dragons, giants or ice trolls with no chance of survival, i'm stuck perpetually at 6th level, grrr!
Skyrim has a "Soft Wall" in the difficulty of its encounters relative to how far from Whiterun you are, and how much off the road you wander. It typically caps out by 10th level, at which point every region effectively scales with your character level, with a few areas gradually becoming a bit easier. Find a dungeon near Whiterun and go through it, rinse and repeat until you've cleared the area out, and by then you should be able to handle travelling.
Also, you really should just be avoiding giants until you're level 20, they won't attack unless you provoke them. The dragons scale with you, but they present a challenge at all levels basically. If you're a melee character they're a lot tougher early on though.
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Okay. First, try recruiting either Sven or the elf in Riverwood - all you have to do is finish the little relationship side-quest for either character, and you can then ask that character to follow you. For free. I recommend the elf as there's a little... um... bug in the system that lets you remove gold from your follower. So you ask for Archery training, then ask to see his inventory, remove his gold, and continue until you are trained a bit. ;)
I'm evil, I freely admit it.
Second, stick to the roads. When you're NOT sticking to the roads, sneak. Sabercats are bloody deadly even for mid- to high-level characters and have killed me multiple times. (Small bit of advice: always feel free to run away.)
As for Dragons? You kite them. Try to ensure that when the dragon DOES attack? There are plenty of other targets around! You get the Dragon Soul no matter WHO kills the dragon. (There is also a quest where you get an annoying talking dog that follows you until you finish the quest. The fun thing is? The dog is immortal. Ignore the quest. The dog will follow you forever. I've seen that dog take on dragons... and win.
(Also, buy a horse. You can loot everything around, and then while you can barely walk from being overencumbered, get on the horse and fast travel. You can also use the shout Whirlwind Sprint to run despite being encumbered.)
wow yay all good stuff:-)
i'll have to try that out, i'm rather sporadic with video games but its about the time where winter lingers and video games help keep the blahs from creeping in:-)
edit: i'll also maybe look into getting a strategy guide:)
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The problem in the game my GM is currently running for RotRL (anniversary edition) is that we have a fluctuating group of 5-6 and we are currently at the library in chapter 4. I had a character that took craft magic arms and armor and only got to make 1 item for myself, and that was in book 2. We have been routinely behind in wealth and level the whole time. My cleric was killed in 1 shot by the hill giant guarding the townsfolk in the sacrificial pit area. The best weapon in the party was a holy greatsword +1 that I had crafted, everyone else had +2 overall weapons. We have a tank that is good at it and a ranger that is good at damage. Everyone else in the party would basically die in 2 rounds to all the giants and ogres if it weren't for them.
We don't get any down time to craft items since we are always on a "timer". I tried to craft enroute but the rules for that make it so you can't complete an item in a timely manner. Plus my cleric died before completing an item for the party so money lost there...
To top it off, we are woefully under-leveled for the content. I expect to be 1 level behind with 5-6 players, but we are 3 levels behind! Every encounter is a struggle and it's getting to the absurd level. The only significant damage is coming from our ranger! The grumbling isn't too bad now as long as the ranger lives and pumps out the damage, but the whole campaign has been about 2 players, the rest of us are just there for the ride...