The Wealth Progression in Rise of the Runelords seems poor and lacking

[CWheezy]

Quote:

In fact, for pretty much all adventures (Runelords Anniversary Edition included), we generally aim to place about twice as much wealth in the adventures than the PCs should probably have at their expected wealth by level. AKA: If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level as according to the Core Rulebook

No, he is saying what I said

[Ian Bell]

CWheezy wrote:

Quote:

In fact, for pretty much all adventures (Runelords Anniversary Edition included), we generally aim to place about twice as much wealth in the adventures than the PCs should probably have at their expected wealth by level. AKA: If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level as according to the Core Rulebook

No, he is saying what I said

You left out some of the context:

Quote:

Obviously, most groups won't get every single item. Others will sell some items for half value. Some groups will need to spend money to recover from death or energy drain or other spellcasting services.

Bold is mine.

[thejeff]

CWheezy wrote:

Quote:

In fact, for pretty much all adventures (Runelords Anniversary Edition included), we generally aim to place about twice as much wealth in the adventures than the PCs should probably have at their expected wealth by level. AKA: If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level as according to the Core Rulebook

No, he is saying what I said

"If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level"

Not "if they loot everything and sell all of it, they'll have double".

Or "Place about twice as much wealth in the adventure as the PCs should have", which implies that if they find all of it and sell it for half price, they'll be about on track.

He doesn't explicitly say "sell for half", but that's where the "double" comes from.

[CWheezy]

Quote:

If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level as according to the Core Rulebook

He really is saying what I said. What you quoted is why he puts double wbl in, because most groups miss stuff so if you miss half of it you should be at wbl.

If what he is saying is true, then by level 15 in rise of the runelords, the raw value of what a single character in a 4 person party could have found if they searched absolutely everything is 960,000g

[NobodysHome]

Let's ALL put words in James' mouth! He's a T-Rex! He won't notice!

James Jacobs wrote:

I am going to buy NobodysHome a brand new Tesla because he is so cool!

To be slightly more serious, my interpretation of James' statement is, "If you as PCs went to Absalom and paid full retail price for every single lootable item and reward in the AP, you would have to pay double WBL per PC to get it all."

So "total retail value" for a 15th-level character is the aforementioned dreaded 480,000.

But a huge portion of that wealth is in gear or magic items that sell for only half price, or consumables that get used up. So the assumption is that you're going to miss some percentage of the treasure, you're going to sell some percentage of the gear at half price, and you'll end up somewhere within a reasonable proximity of WBL. As I said, I think my group was around 200,000 with no crafting, which is "within a reasonable proximity" of the WBL table.

CWheezy's "70k including crafting" is so far off the mark that it's sparking a debate of, "What, exactly, did he(?) miss, or what did his(?) GM not give him?"

[thejeff]

CWheezy wrote:

Quote:

If a party of four PCs goes through the adventure and loots everything, they'll have double (if not more than that) the wealth for their level as according to the Core Rulebook

He really is saying what I said. What you quoted is why he puts double wbl in, because most groups miss stuff so if you miss half of it you should be at wbl.

If what he is saying is true, then by level 15 in rise of the runelords, the raw value of what a single character in a 4 person party could have found if they searched absolutely everything is 960,000g

No. He also explicitly says "we generally aim to place about twice as much wealth in the adventures than the PCs should probably have at their expected wealth by level."

They put in twice WBL. If you find it all and keep it all, you'll be at twice.

If you miss some and sell some for half and use some up, but also keep some of the rest, you'll be around right. At least that's the goal.

[James Jacobs]

I am amused!

[captain yesterday]

But when are you getting us all Tesla CDs?
wait, thats no good, what have you done nobodyshome! You've doomed us all!

[CWheezy]

I think thejeff is just repeating what I am saying back at me, lol

[thejeff]

CWheezy wrote:

I think thejeff is just repeating what I am saying back at me, lol

Except I disagree with you.

By the time you reach 15th level each character in a 4 person party could have found around 480000gp worth of stuff. Twice WBL. Not 960000gp, which would be 4X. Since they will have missed some and used some up and sold some for half price and kept some, this should put their actual wealth at that point around 240K.

What I think you're saying is that they put in 4x as much, so that if you found it all you'd have 960K, which you'd sell to get 480K, but since you'll only find half of it and sell it all you'll be on track. Is that right?

[Latrecis]

Since NobodysHome has volunteered to do the actual math (at least through the first two books) he gave me a +4 to my will save vs. wasting time on the same thing. I look forward to his results but I will add that my players have just returned to Turtleback Ferry in Book 3 and they sure don't seem to be suffering for wealth in my eyes.

They just teleported to Magnimar and back to buy a couple 5000gp diamonds for raise dead - one they planned on using for Vale and another they were going to have "just in case." They also invested 3000gp in the new mill in Sandpoint. They are bristling with magic - all have magic armor and weapons and primary stat boosting items (and other stats too - they had so many belts of giant strength, the wizard is wearing one to overcome his 9 - they might liquidate that later.) The fighter's AC is 30 for crying out loud and the cleric's isn't far behind at 27. I won't get into how many wands the wizard has - some crafted, some found. They basically paste every encounter in the AP if I don't have monsters/NPC's converge on them from multiple rooms/areas (which is fine by me since I don't like the 'wait in my room to be slaughtered' tactic anyway.) Well, except for the last encounter in Turtleback Ferry - that one made them squeal like a pig and may force them to spend more money on diamond dust for a Restoration (or two.)

And I'm one of those "realistic" DM's - they did not get anywhere near listed sale value for the dagger (you know the one I'm talking about), I didn't let them sell much of the goblin gear (who wants goblin crap?) and while I've let them sell the magical hide armor from the ogres, they can't sell the magical ogre hooks (again - who exactly would buy these?) But they did sell all the masks from Skinsaw (and that is a boatload of cash) and since they revealed and then captured the traitor in Hook Mountain, the Black Arrows gave them the traitor's gear (which they have liquidated.) They have also not missed much if any of the "real" treasure so far in the AP even that which is hidden in out of the way or obscure places. (My players are Epic Level Murderhobos.)

My testimony may need to be stricken since I am an avowed WBL Heretic.

[NobodysHome]

Hey, an avowed WBL heretic is doing the spreadsheet.

Just had an hour, got to the end of the Catacombs, so the PCs should be level 3, WBL = 3000, 4 PCs = 12,000 in total wealth.

Selling *everything* was rather interesting:
- Things every GM would allow to be sold (things like potions of CLW, medium-sized masterwork weapons, etc.) was just 2670.5
- Things owned by goblins and demons that some GMs might balk at buying (including said dagger) was 7274.5

So we're at 9945 instead of 12k, but I happen to know of a certain trove in Thistletop that's going to skyrocket that number.

So far, right about WBL if the GM allows the players to sell goblin gear.

But yeah, those masks in Book 2 are the "big huge cash influx" that changes the nature of the game. I know my PCs suddenly had plate mail and magical weapons once those sold...

EDIT: And I do know that my PCs felt the AP was very cash-poor until Thistletop, so I'm not surprised the number's low at this point...

[captain yesterday]

NobodysHome wrote:

Let's ALL put words in James' mouth! He's a T-Rex! He won't notice!

I had the following cartoon idea pop in my head with just this one line, and i had to share it with all

A Wizard stands in the foreground, holding a scroll labeled Hold Monster, in the background a cleric, fighter, and rogue are standing on ladders trying to cram reams of pages into the mouth of a large T-Rex wearing a t-shirt that says GM

Fighter: He's still not telling us what we wanna hear!
Rogue: Quick add more Vestigial Arm rules interpretations!
Wizard: Hurry up guys! i can't hold him much longer...

The next panel shows the T-Rex picking his teeth with the Wizards staff

thank you:-)
edit: my avatar will change by the time you read this:p

[BobTheCoward]

Observation: The original post mentioned nothing about a need for wealth such that the game is stalling. As far as I can tell, player outrage seems to be a sense that the game is not Progress Quest.

I am finishing up GMing book 3 tomorrow. Most of us are not pathfinder/oldest rpg players and haven't really considered what are wealth would be relative to the chart. I guess ignorance is bliss.

[Ckorik]

I put together a list - if the players find *everything* and sell *everything* (not keeping any loot for themselves) - they end up with:

34,086.48gp at the end of book one.

For four players that averages to 8,521.62

At the end of book 1 - players should be level four and wealth by level = 6,000 gp.

So based on the book - again assuming they never keep a single item (unlikely - making the wbl higher) they will end up halfway to level 5 wbl.

I would like to point out that the worst book in the series for 'wealth' was book 1 - and it's the source of most complaints if you do a search on ancient threads.

If you have more than 4 players and they don't loot everything - you (as a GM) may have to make some adjustments.... I'm not doing that for book 2 - it was rather a pain in the butt lol.

[HangarFlying]

NobodysHome wrote:

Hey, an avowed WBL heretic is doing the spreadsheet.

Just had an hour, got to the end of the Catacombs, so the PCs should be level 3, WBL = 3000, 4 PCs = 12,000 in total wealth.

Selling *everything* was rather interesting:
- Things every GM would allow to be sold (things like potions of CLW, medium-sized masterwork weapons, etc.) was just 2670.5
- Things owned by goblins and demons that some GMs might balk at buying (including said dagger) was 7274.5

So we're at 9945 instead of 12k, but I happen to know of a certain trove in Thistletop that's going to skyrocket that number.

So far, right about WBL if the GM allows the players to sell goblin gear.

But yeah, those masks in Book 2 are the "big huge cash influx" that changes the nature of the game. I know my PCs suddenly had plate mail and magical weapons once those sold...

EDIT: And I do know that my PCs felt the AP was very cash-poor until Thistletop, so I'm not surprised the number's low at this point...

Just to make sure of your methodology, things like tiaras, fine gowns, and weapons with an "artistic" value get 100%.

My cleric had full plate before the end of book 1—or was it between book 1 and 2...regardless, he didnt have to wait long.

[Tangent101]

My players (well, primarily the crafter-player) did complain about wealth initially. It doesn't help that I'm an old-school GM who was raised on Dragon Magazine warning about Monty Haul campaigns, and thus was a firm believer of keeping treasure levels low, magic items scarce, and adventures tough.

Mind you, while I believed that, I never truly ran such a campaign. It comes from using published materials like Night Below and Paizo's well-crafted products (and WotR). In addition, my group started out as three with the GMPC being a thief going toward Arcane Trickster and grew to be four players and the GMPC - nor did I bother to add much treasure to compensate.

My group doesn't really complain much anymore about treasure levels... and I am a firm believer of "no one would want to buy a magical ogre hook or magical ogre-made hide armor." I compensate for that by including other magic items in those hordes so that the players can get some other nifty treasures (especially from the newer books). They even have a charity cut which can be sizable at times so the group has fairly even cuts of coinage and other treasures.

The problem really ends up being this: eventually the players end up on a timer and need to finish the game by a specific time. They very well may have plenty of treasure... but not enough to buy a really nifty magic item that will help a lot... while lacking the time needed to enchant the items. So at the end, you have an embarrassment of riches that ultimately don't do much good for the group.

Or worse, you have players with so much treasure they risk destroying the economy. I know in my Night Below campaign that one player absconded with most of the treasure upon achieving godhood (I may have modified the campaign a bit with my own side stories... though it did have the most beautiful delightful moment I've never been able to recreate of leaving the players wide-eyed in shock and awe but for the plaintive "can he do that?" from one of the players).

Spoiler:

In short, the Big Bad of my storyline, who was trying to achieve Godhood, realized he wasn't able to sidetrack prophecy which stated "the chosen one will achieve Godhood, only to be struck down moments after Ascending" and then, having a 2nd ed. AD&D 25 Intelligence and 25 Wisdom, thought it out, realized "I'm already immortal, I'm already extremely powerful... in short I'm all BUT a God already. Why go for Godhood only to lose it all? Screw this, I quit, and I'm going on vacation."

Ultimately the prophecy wasn't about HIM achieving Godhood, but one of his descendents who was one of the players. I didn't realize that at that point, until the player made an odd-the-cuff comment and I got a delightful evil idea. Ah, those were the days. I'm a sad pale reflection of the glory I once had.

[magnuskn]

CWheezy wrote:

James says he puts double WBL in adventure paths, such as rise of the runelords. level 15 wbl is 240,000. There is no way for it to be possible to have double that much gold with ZERO CRAFTING. Maybe he is forgetting you have to sell things for half, so maximum posssible wealth is only 240,000 by level 15? I read through rise after the campaign ended and our party did not miss 76 +2 longswords (aka being down 150,000g each

I actually did wealth breakdowns for several AP's (Jade Regent and Carrion Crown, I think also for Kingmaker) and the WBL came more down to 125% of what four characters should have at the end of each module. That is with selling everything which is not an artifact, with 50% of normal wealth for equipment and 100% for art and jewels. I tried to take into account how likely it is that the characters will even get certain items, i.e. I didn't count equipment from characters where a diplomatic solution was very likely. However I did count in equipment which was hard to find.

With RotRL, I find myself in the unique position of still playing it while also GM'ing it. We just started last week with Burnt Offerings with my group of 15+ years, while I am still myself playing Spires of Xin-Shalast, just having found the entrance to the Pinnacle of Avarice. I don't want to spoil myself for the last leg of the journey, so I am holding back on doing my WBL accounting until we got Karzoug down.

Still, gotta know how much I need to place for my six players in that first group. I am very much aware that the first modules of RotRL can seem a little scarce on treasure even for four players!

[Ckorik]

magnuskn wrote:

Still, gotta know how much I need to place for my six players in that first group. I am very much aware that the first modules of RotRL can seem a little scarce on treasure even for four players!

Well it will depend somewhat on what your characters consider loot - what they find - and what you allow to be sold - some tips:

• goblins are expected to have the gear listed in the bestiary - I pegged each goblin gear value at 52 (prior to selling) - warchanters were 135 and commandos were 673.
  
• Aldern (if taken on his offer for a boar hunt) actually *buys* a horse for each player - that's 75 (or more if you are generous and say each mount has tackle and a saddle)
  
• Unless your players are very dead set on their own thing they should get free room and board while in sandpoint which helps
  
• I suggest checking out the (free) wayfinder mag from this site - there is a side adventure to explore choppers isle that is very cool - I added a masterwork weapon for each PC as a reward when they were done personally.
  
• If your players find *everything* and sell *everything* you will need to add about 2k to hit level 4 wbl for a 6 player party. Shouldn't be too hard to do - the problem will be they should level to 5 pretty quick in the 2nd book and will fall behind as most of the exp from that first part is based on rollplaying. They should catch up by the end though due to some very nice treasure hordes.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

[thejeff]

Ckorik wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Still, gotta know how much I need to place for my six players in that first group. I am very much aware that the first modules of RotRL can seem a little scarce on treasure even for four players!

Well it will depend somewhat on what your characters consider loot - what they find - and what you allow to be sold - some tips:

• goblins are expected to have the gear listed in the bestiary - I pegged each goblin gear value at 52 (prior to selling) - warchanters were 135 and commandos were 673.
  
• Aldern (if taken on his offer for a boar hunt) actually *buys* a horse for each player - that's 75 (or more if you are generous and say each mount has tackle and a saddle)
  
• Unless your players are very dead set on their own thing they should get free room and board while in sandpoint which helps
  
• I suggest checking out the (free) wayfinder mag from this site - there is a side adventure to explore choppers isle that is very cool - I added a masterwork weapon for each PC as a reward when they were done personally.
  
• If your players find *everything* and sell *everything* you will need to add about 2k to hit level 4 wbl for a 6 player party. Shouldn't be too hard to do - the problem will be they should level to 5 pretty quick in the 2nd book and will fall behind as most of the exp from that first part is based on rollplaying. They should catch up by the end though due to some very nice treasure hordes.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

When adjusting for 6 players you also have to consider how you're adjusting. Are you boosting all the encounters? If so, then new gear for the new critters will cover part of the extra automatically. Some will need to be added to cover those foes that don't use gear.

If you're not, then characters will wind up at lower level, but still powerful due to numbers. They need less treasure to stay on track.

[Bellona]

Folks, here's a small nit-pick from the vocabulary police: there is a difference between the treasure HOARD and the orc HORDE.

Please take note! That goes for game publishers too - I've seen at least one printed reference to a dragon's horde (which isn't likely unless one's playing Dragon Mountain, or maybe The Red Hand of Doom). :)

[captain yesterday]

Which leads us back to the age old question: whats worse, a Smurf Hoard or a Horde of Smurfs:p

[NobodysHome]

Bellona wrote:

Folks, here's a small nit-pick from the vocabulary police: there is a difference between the treasure HOARD and the orc HORDE.

Please take note! That goes for game publishers too - I've seen at least one printed reference to a dragon's horde (which isn't likely unless one's playing Dragon Mountain, or maybe The Red Hand of Doom). :)

See, if you're going to be the grammar police, you really need to get them ALL:

• It is not "rouge", it's "rogue"! "Rouge" is a form of makeup!
  
• It is not "Monty Haul", it is "Monty Hall". Monty Hall was the game show host for "Let's Make a Deal" in the 1960's and 1970's. The show was famous for its ridiculously-costumed contestants and its ludicrously over-the-top prizes. Since D&D originally developed in the 1970's, dungeons with excessive loot were referred to as "Monty Hall" dungeons in his honor.
  
• A "hoard" is something someone has collected. A "horde" is a group of attackers.
  
• Contrary to common sense, "its" is possessive, while "it's" is a contraction for "it is". Always.
  
• "There" is a location. "Their" is possessive. "They're" is a contraction.
  

Honestly, I think the greatest favors ever done for me were by complete jerks:
- If I mis-used "its/it's" or "they're/there/their" in an English paper, I got an automatic 0 on the entire paper.
- If I made a mistake while driving, my driving instructor slammed on the brakes, yelled, "BAM! YOU'RE DEAD!", and my turn was over.

Kind of made me remember proper grammar and proper driving. Go figure.

[the Lorax]

I've always viewed language as a communication medium.

When one is able to correctly understand a message and comprehend the intent well enough to accurately correct it, then the original message was clear enough to be effective communication.

And spelling is damn near arbitrary.
Language is not a static thing - it does evolve and English is a horrible melange borrowing/stealing spelling and pronunciation from all over.

If the message is UNCLEAR, then certainly, there is call to question the intent. Otherwise...meh...in 100 years their version may be the correct one.

[stormcrow27]

Heh. I had to grant my PCs about 10,000 gp more since that way they would have gear at the standard WBL, but I wasn't real worried about it, given that a new character joined up with 16,000 gp and made some of his items using Master Craftsman. Item Creation can and will overgear you, but you can always add more monsters to make up for it. I have found that swarming an enemy with ghouls doesn't work if the group has AOE healing bursts and sound burst spells, or if the ghouls arrive in waves, like they do in the fields of book 2. I did manage to kill the eidolon of the 3 cleric/3 summoner, but they cut the rest of the ghouls down via arrow fire and well illuminated fields of harvested crops (it was October, so not much raising crops and having the undead attack you as you go up and down the rows).

Party
6 level halfing bard no archetype
3 level forester (Pathfinder Database web class with 3/4 BAB, skirmish as scout, plus bard style spellcasting orienting on a mix of arcane and divine)/3rd level elf wizard
3rd level human cleric/3rd level summoner (no archetypes)
6th level dwarven fighter specializing in dual wielding dorn-degar, has Master Craftsman and uses a Large Sized Adamntine +1 Dorn-Degar in one hand (has the feat that allows him to do so, plus the gloves that allow to use weapons one size larger) and a masterwork one in the other. Combat reflexes and the other feat that allows you to shorten the weapon as a move action. Nasty for approach fights. Wears stone plate.

[Misroi]

the Lorax wrote:

I've always viewed language as a communication medium.

When one is able to correctly understand a message and comprehend the intent well enough to accurately correct it, then the original message was clear enough to be effective communication.

And spelling is damn near arbitrary.
Language is not a static thing - it does evolve and English is a horrible melange borrowing/stealing spelling and pronunciation from all over.

If the message is UNCLEAR, then certainly, there is call to question the intent. Otherwise...meh...in 100 years their version may be the correct one.

“English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose grammar.”

― Terry Pratchett

[Mythic Evil Lincoln]

NobodysHome wrote:

It is not "Monty Haul", it is "Monty Hall". Monty Hall was the game show host for "Let's Make a Deal" in the 1960's and 1970's. The show was famous for its ridiculously-costumed contestants and its ludicrously over-the-top prizes. Since D&D originally developed in the 1970's, dungeons with excessive loot were referred to as "Monty Hall" dungeons in his honor.

Even as I was aware of the origin of the term, I had always considered "Monty Haul" to be a deliberate pun. I think this gets a pass.

[captain yesterday]

I thought it had to do with Monty Python, see I learned something new today:-p

[CWheezy]

stormcrow27 wrote:

6th level dwarven fighter specializing in dual wielding dorn-degar, has Master Craftsman and uses a Large Sized Adamntine +1 Dorn-Degar in one hand (has the feat that allows him to do so, plus the gloves that allow to use weapons one size larger) and a masterwork one in the other. Combat reflexes and the other feat that allows you to shorten the weapon as a move action.

Uh, what feats and gloves are those? I think there was 3.5 feats but there are no pathfinder magic items or feats that I know of

[captain yesterday]

the feats are from Dwarves of Golarion, i know nothing of the gloves

[Misroi]

I didn't immediately see anything on d20pfsrd.com that would explain these gloves either. I suspect they don't officially exist - if they did, every melee build in the optimization threads would be using them.

[magnuskn]

thejeff wrote:

Ckorik wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Still, gotta know how much I need to place for my six players in that first group. I am very much aware that the first modules of RotRL can seem a little scarce on treasure even for four players!

Well it will depend somewhat on what your characters consider loot - what they find - and what you allow to be sold - some tips:

• goblins are expected to have the gear listed in the bestiary - I pegged each goblin gear value at 52 (prior to selling) - warchanters were 135 and commandos were 673.
  
• Aldern (if taken on his offer for a boar hunt) actually *buys* a horse for each player - that's 75 (or more if you are generous and say each mount has tackle and a saddle)
  
• Unless your players are very dead set on their own thing they should get free room and board while in sandpoint which helps
  
• I suggest checking out the (free) wayfinder mag from this site - there is a side adventure to explore choppers isle that is very cool - I added a masterwork weapon for each PC as a reward when they were done personally.
  
• If your players find *everything* and sell *everything* you will need to add about 2k to hit level 4 wbl for a 6 player party. Shouldn't be too hard to do - the problem will be they should level to 5 pretty quick in the 2nd book and will fall behind as most of the exp from that first part is based on rollplaying. They should catch up by the end though due to some very nice treasure hordes.

Anyway those are my thoughts.

When adjusting for 6 players you also have to consider how you're adjusting. Are you boosting all the encounters? If so, then new gear for the new critters will cover part of the extra automatically. Some will need to be added to cover those foes that don't use gear.

If you're not, then characters will wind up at lower level, but still powerful due to numbers. They need less treasure to stay on track.

I will boost all encounters appropriately, but a lot of encounters in AP's don't even have treasure. I'll adjust accordingly as soon as I can do the WBL breakdown in a few weeks. I can already say that all the encounters with ogres later on will tax suspension of disbelief a bit, since I don't think that there is a huge market for ogre hooks in civilized areas. I'll just have to place extra stuff here and there to compensate.

[Ckorik]

NobodysHome wrote:

Bellona wrote:

Folks, here's a small nit-pick from the vocabulary police: there is a difference between the treasure HOARD and the orc HORDE.

Please take note! That goes for game publishers too - I've seen at least one printed reference to a dragon's horde (which isn't likely unless one's playing Dragon Mountain, or maybe The Red Hand of Doom). :)

See, if you're going to be the grammar police, you really need to get them ALL:

• It is not "rouge", it's "rogue"! "Rouge" is a form of makeup!
  
• It is not "Monty Haul", it is "Monty Hall". Monty Hall was the game show host for "Let's Make a Deal" in the 1960's and 1970's. The show was famous for its ridiculously-costumed contestants and its ludicrously over-the-top prizes. Since D&D originally developed in the 1970's, dungeons with excessive loot were referred to as "Monty Hall" dungeons in his honor.
  
• A "hoard" is something someone has collected. A "horde" is a group of attackers.
  
• Contrary to common sense, "its" is possessive, while "it's" is a contraction for "it is". Always.
  
• "There" is a location. "Their" is possessive. "They're" is a contraction.
  

Honestly, I think the greatest favors ever done for me were by complete jerks:
- If I mis-used "its/it's" or "they're/there/their" in an English paper, I got an automatic 0 on the entire paper.
- If I made a mistake while driving, my driving instructor slammed on the brakes, yelled, "BAM! YOU'RE DEAD!", and my turn was over.

Kind of made me remember proper grammar and proper driving. Go figure.

All of that and I only got dinged on using horde instead of hoard?

I'm disappointed no one pointed out it's 'role-playing' not 'rollplaying' - but that's what I get for being intentionally punny.

[Tangent101]

That's my thought as well. I know that with the ogre leader at Fort Rannick, I replaced his magical ogre hook with a human-sized bastard sword with the same attributes... and gave him a couple extra levels to compensate for his penalties in using the undersized weapon. I also tossed in other magic items to help fill in spaces.

The irony is, I suspect we may have forgotten treasure here and there. I'm not entirely sure. But they should be fine.

[NobodysHome]

You know, if you start being all grammar-policey, someone's gotta go all in.

If you're going to go all gramma-policey, well, we're not going to go there.

And yes, I'm still working on the spreadsheet. Finished the first floor of Thistletop and they're well ahead of Lvl 3 WBC

[Tangent101]

You did factor in the WBC for Fast Track advancement, didn't you?

[NobodysHome]

BOOK 1 TOTALS:
- Expected WBL, 4 PCs, 4th level: 4 x 6000 = 24,000 g.p.

- Easy-to-find, easy-to-sell treasure and items: 16,438 g.p.
- Hard-to-find but still reasonably sell-able items: 7,285 g.p. (including the 3,000 g.p. head, which some people might object to)

So -without- the goblin or hobgoblin gear, but -with- selling everything at half price you're at 23,723 g.p. which is pretty darned close.

If you add in goblin and hobgoblin gear (and a certain dagger), you get a whopping extra 13,816.

Considering this was all gear and all items without explicitly stated values at half price and I still ended up at 37,539.32, I think James' claim of "double per book" holds water through Book 1.

Anyone want to suggest a good place I can publicly post a read-only version of the spreadsheet so people can chew it up?

Thanks!

Book 2 this weekend, I think. Takes quite a while...

EDIT: And I included Big M's stuff as "easy to find" (1500 g.p. worth of candles and a ring that sells for 4250 g.p.). So there's another 5750 g.p. some people might re-categorize as "hard to find".

[captain yesterday]

I just found mint original skinsaw murders at used bookstore, $10
:-)

[Ckorik]

NobodysHome wrote:

BOOK 1 TOTALS:

- Expected WBL, 4 PCs, 4th level: 4 x 6000 = 24,000 g.p.

- Easy-to-find, easy-to-sell treasure and items: 16,438 g.p.
- Hard-to-find but still reasonably sell-able items: 7,285 g.p. (including the 3,000 g.p. head, which some people might object to)

So -without- the goblin or hobgoblin gear, but -with- selling everything at half price you're at 23,723 g.p. which is pretty darned close.

If you add in goblin and hobgoblin gear (and a certain dagger), you get a whopping extra 13,816.

Considering this was all gear and all items without explicitly stated values at half price and I still ended up at 37,539.32, I think James' claim of "double per book" holds water through Book 1.

Anyone want to suggest a good place I can publicly post a read-only version of the spreadsheet so people can chew it up?

Thanks!

Book 2 this weekend, I think. Takes quite a while...

EDIT: And I included Big M's stuff as "easy to find" (1500 g.p. worth of candles and a ring that sells for 4250 g.p.). So there's another 5750 g.p. some people might re-categorize as "hard to find".

Odd I only got 34k ish - I wonder what the differences were - does go to show everyone counts things a little differently.

[stormcrow27]

The gloves are from the Magic Item Compendium.

[Ckorik]

captain yesterday wrote:

I just found mint original skinsaw murders at used bookstore, $10

:-)

I found curse of the crimson throne - books 1-3 and 6 - I had to check the website on my phone and check but I got 4-5 online giving me a full AP set :)

I was very happy - that was only a couple of months ago.

Now if I could only find the horror one...

[NobodysHome]

Ckorik wrote:

NobodysHome wrote:

BOOK 1 TOTALS:

- Expected WBL, 4 PCs, 4th level: 4 x 6000 = 24,000 g.p.

- Easy-to-find, easy-to-sell treasure and items: 16,438 g.p.
- Hard-to-find but still reasonably sell-able items: 7,285 g.p. (including the 3,000 g.p. head, which some people might object to)

So -without- the goblin or hobgoblin gear, but -with- selling everything at half price you're at 23,723 g.p. which is pretty darned close.

If you add in goblin and hobgoblin gear (and a certain dagger), you get a whopping extra 13,816.

Considering this was all gear and all items without explicitly stated values at half price and I still ended up at 37,539.32, I think James' claim of "double per book" holds water through Book 1.

Anyone want to suggest a good place I can publicly post a read-only version of the spreadsheet so people can chew it up?

Thanks!

Book 2 this weekend, I think. Takes quite a while...

EDIT: And I included Big M's stuff as "easy to find" (1500 g.p. worth of candles and a ring that sells for 4250 g.p.). So there's another 5750 g.p. some people might re-categorize as "hard to find".

Odd I only got 34k ish - I wonder what the differences were - does go to show everyone counts things a little differently.

Yep. I suspect it's the whole, "A dress worth 100 g.p."

From other threads I've read, I believe that's supposed to be the selling price, so I added 100 g.p. to the spreadsheet. If you take it to be the buying price and cut it in half, I bet we'd make up almost all the difference. (And I sold the goblin dogslicers and so forth -- lots of "garbage loot" that no reasonable human would ever buy...)

[Ckorik]

NobodysHome wrote:

Odd I only got 34k ish - I wonder what the differences were - does go to show everyone counts things a little differently.

Yep. I suspect it's the whole, "A dress worth 100 g.p."

From other threads I've read, I believe that's supposed to be the selling price, so I added 100 g.p. to the spreadsheet. If you take it to be the buying price and cut it in half, I bet we'd make up almost all the difference. (And I sold the goblin dogslicers and so forth -- lots of "garbage loot" that no reasonable human would ever buy...)

yeah I had a separate tally for art/gems/coins for things that sell full value and counted all the goblin loot - (as stated above even a regular goblin should have a dogslicer, shield, short bow, arrows) I may have missed something or perhaps classified something incorrectly - it was much more of a pain to go through all that than I thought it would be.

My players missed quite a bit of loot so I gave them other things to make up for it (being heroes in sandpoint I gave them 60% for selling instead of 50% and gave them a 10% discount on buying stuff as well).

They are just starting book 3 and are pretty much spot on for wbl except my crafter wizard who is in line considering the crafted items.

[NobodysHome]

Well, I have a handoff at work this week so I'll be pretty quiet, but over the weekend I'm going to try to set up a DropBox account and load the spreadsheet for all to holler at.

It'll contain a spoiler or two. :-P

[James Jacobs]

NobodysHome wrote:

Yep. I suspect it's the whole, "A dress worth 100 g.p."

From other threads I've read, I believe that's supposed to be the selling price, so I added 100 g.p. to the spreadsheet. If you take it to be the buying price and cut it in half, I bet we'd make up almost all the difference. (And I sold the goblin dogslicers and so forth -- lots of "garbage loot" that no reasonable human would ever buy...)

Art objects and gems and the like always sell for full gp value. We try to vary things up in our adventures when it comes to art objects, so that not every one of them is a necklace or a ring. A "dress worth 100 gp" is very much an art object in this case—it should be treated identically to "a ring worth 100 gp" and, when you sell it, you get 100 gp.

[NobodysHome]

Life is good with a T-Rex at your back! :-P

[Misroi]

magnuskn wrote:

I will boost all encounters appropriately, but a lot of encounters in AP's don't even have treasure. I'll adjust accordingly as soon as I can do the WBL breakdown in a few weeks. I can already say that all the encounters with ogres later on will tax suspension of disbelief a bit, since I don't think that there is a huge market for ogre hooks in civilized areas. I'll just have to place extra stuff here and there to compensate.

I agreed with you on this...right up until the minute I read on a different thread that the sizable troll population in Kaer Maga would probably be a good place to unload Large-sized weapons, and the City of Strangers is not all that far from Turtleback Ferry...

[Akerlof]

As far as Wealth By Level goes, the most important thing is that PCs are geared well enough to handle the encounters you're throwing at them. Most of the combat encounters in the second book are CR 3-5: On par with the harder encounters in book one, but the PCs are level 4 or 5 instead of 3. So, it looks like the encounters were designed with the fact that the PCs would be a bit under-equipped in mind.

That makes me not worry about wealth by level per se, I know my PCs will be geared well enough to overcome the challenges they face. I do want to make sure they have enough wealth to get some nice things, though. Improving your gear is part of what gives you the feeling that your PC is progressing. On the other hand, the more you feel the constraint early on, the more rich you feel later when the wealth starts rolling in.

NobodysHome wrote:

• It is not "Monty Haul", it is "Monty Hall". Monty Hall was the game show host for "Let's Make a Deal" in the 1960's and 1970's. The show was famous for its ridiculously-costumed contestants and its ludicrously over-the-top prizes. Since D&D originally developed in the 1970's, dungeons with excessive loot were referred to as "Monty Hall" dungeons in his honor.
  

To be a real pedant, the 1st Edition DMG (December revision, 1979 edition, page 92) calls it "Monty Haul," though I can't rule out "Monty Hall" showing up in other places.

[NobodysHome]

Akerlof wrote:

As far as Wealth By Level goes, the most important thing is that PCs are geared well enough to handle the encounters you're throwing at them. Most of the combat encounters in the second book are CR 3-5: On par with the harder encounters in book one, but the PCs are level 4 or 5 instead of 3. So, it looks like the encounters were designed with the fact that the PCs would be a bit under-equipped in mind.

That makes me not worry about wealth by level per se, I know my PCs will be geared well enough to overcome the challenges they face. I do want to make sure they have enough wealth to get some nice things, though. Improving your gear is part of what gives you the feeling that your PC is progressing. On the other hand, the more you feel the constraint early on, the more rich you feel later when the wealth starts rolling in.

NobodysHome wrote:

• It is not "Monty Haul", it is "Monty Hall". Monty Hall was the game show host for "Let's Make a Deal" in the 1960's and 1970's. The show was famous for its ridiculously-costumed contestants and its ludicrously over-the-top prizes. Since D&D originally developed in the 1970's, dungeons with excessive loot were referred to as "Monty Hall" dungeons in his honor.
  

To be a real pedant, the 1st Edition DMG (December revision, 1979 edition, page 92) calls it "Monty Haul," though I can't rule out "Monty Hall" showing up in other places.

Some of us predate 1979... (and yes, the term was in common use even back then)

[Ian Bell]

From one old guy to another, IMO "Haul" is correct - It's a deliberate pun.