How might you represent him in a a world that capped at 5th or 6th level though?
13th level is pretty amazing compared to the world of Westeros.
Remember, low HP isn't always representative of wounds—sometimes it just means your luck's run out. ;)
I agree that 13th level is too high, considering that creatures like sharks and crocodiles large enough to swallow elephants whole each clock in several CRs lower (CR 9).
People keep asking that question.
I actually disagree that Westeros is a low-level world. It's just that with magical healing being so rare (and coming at such a heavy cost) it's not common for characters to survive to higher levels. Characters like Bronn, Jamie Lannister, The Mountain should still be higher level characters... but when you have no cleric it's easy to go down in a storm of arrows, or to be mobbed and beaten to death by starving commoners.
If I HAD to lower his level, I'd simply take him as straight Cad and snatch all the dirty trick and trip feats I could get.
Yes, Brienne, Oberyn and the Mountain are not low level.
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The entire world of Westeros is an E6 game.
Brienne, Bronn, Hound, The Mountain and the other extremely competent warriors are 5th or 6th level. They are comparatively amazing to everyone else.
That's why Medium and Large sized dragons are suck a big deal in Westeros. They're about CR 7 or 8 (but they still can be nearly killed by a mob of low level people in golden masks throwing spears).
If Bronn is 13th level, those dragons would have to be somewhere around CR 17 (unless you really think Bronn would have even a ghost of a chance of taking down Drogon).
I don't know why anybody would think they were higher level in the first place. Nobody does anything that either requires or indicates a higher level.
Everything anyone does can be replicated by a 6th level character at tops.
Bronn, Fighter 6 (Martial Master):
1.) Combat Expertise
1.) Power Attack
1.) EWP: Bastard Sword(?)
2.) Two-Weapon Fighting
3.) Double Slice
4.) Combat Reflexes
5.) Improved Unarmed Strike (for prerequisites for Martial Flex)
6.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (?)
S$!$, that was easy.
Replace EWP and IUS for something else if you prefer. Lots of wiggle room even at 6th.
The Pathfinder rules would probably be a poor simulation of GoT anyhow, I don't see why characters based on impressions of those from GoT should have to be locked into low or high levels though perhaps a wounds and vitality system might work better than traditional hit points. That said, I've seen some stuff on GoT which would usually require a 9th level caster despite the fact that the GoT world seems rather "low magic" at this point (though magic seems to be trending up). On the other hand, as evidence for lower levels I'll admit that taking a -4 penalty for using his off hand seems to really give Jamie a lot of trouble.
Regarding poison, GoT seems to work on the assumption that poison usually works while in Pathfinder you literally roll a d20 and see what happens.
@eakratz - Bronn doesn't sing during combat, so maybe he's just in a game which uses the Background Skills variant from Unchained. Some people say that such skills don't help the Fighter, but singing is a nice skill to have if you're going to court a Dornishman's wife (or daughter)
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I don't know why anybody would think they were higher level in the first place. Nobody does anything that either requires or indicates a higher level.
Everything anyone does can be replicated by a 6th level character at tops.
Bronn, Fighter 6 (Martial Master):
1.) Combat Expertise
1.) Power Attack
1.) EWP: Bastard Sword(?)
2.) Two-Weapon Fighting
3.) Double Slice
4.) Combat Reflexes
5.) Improved Unarmed Strike (for prerequisites for Martial Flex)
6.) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (?)S~$$, that was easy.
Replace EWP and IUS for something else if you prefer. Lots of wiggle room even at 6th.
I'd replace EWP with Quickdraw. Bronn does an awful lot of quickly yanking out that dagger and doing terrible things with it before people can react. It's one of his main schticks. (a trait and ranks in Slight of Hand would support this mechanically)
The swords most people use in Westeros are pretty much all longswords (though they might have cultural weapon familiarity with bastard swords, if you want to model them that way).
The entire world of Westeros is an E6 game.
Brienne, Bronn, Hound, The Mountain and the other extremely competent warriors are 5th or 6th level. They are comparatively amazing to everyone else.
That's why Medium and Large sized dragons are suck a big deal in Westeros. They're about CR 7 or 8 (but they still can be nearly killed by a mob of low level people in golden masks throwing spears).
If Bronn is 13th level, those dragons would have to be somewhere around CR 17 (unless you really think Bronn would have even a ghost of a chance of taking down Drogon).
The mountain is stabbed many many times with a spear before being nearly incapacitated.
In the books he is shot by longbowmen on a riverbank over and over, and he still manages to retreat with only minor wounds. He isn't equivalent to 6th level or under.
That everyone is six at max or under almost works, but not quite.
Jorah definitely got a 20 with that thrown spear and taking all those injuries in the pit fight signals he is one of the toughest around (but alas not the mountain tough, or with the mountain's hit die).
Barristan Selmy hacked his way through a keep. He was not 6th level at his best, he would have to have been higher. A sixth level cavalier with no healing and no magic armour or shield would die long before getting to the the rescue target and would not have made it to safety battling all the while.
Let's talk about Brienne again. In the books she takes down two parties of veteran rapist barbarians by herself. The villainous exploits of these barbarians and the number of people they have been killing was mentioned again and again.
Just because you can make a char at six or five and stat them up, doesn't mean that is an accurate reflection of the GOT heroes.
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The entire world of Westeros is an E6 game.
Brienne, Bronn, Hound, The Mountain and the other extremely competent warriors are 5th or 6th level. They are comparatively amazing to everyone else.
That's why Medium and Large sized dragons are suck a big deal in Westeros. They're about CR 7 or 8 (but they still can be nearly killed by a mob of low level people in golden masks throwing spears).
If Bronn is 13th level, those dragons would have to be somewhere around CR 17 (unless you really think Bronn would have even a ghost of a chance of taking down Drogon).
The mountain is stabbed many many times with a spear before being nearly incapacitated.
In the books he is shot by longbowmen on a riverbank over and over, and he still manages to retreat with only minor wounds. He isn't equivalent to 6th level or under.
That everyone is six at max or under almost works, but not quite.
Barbarian 6, PFS average HP, 18 Con, Favored Class: 12+30+24+6 = 72 HP. 84 while Raging.
One arrow: 1d8 damage. Call it 1d8+2 for 14 Str. Average 6.5 damage.
Arrows needed to drop Mountain: 11 if all are average. 16 if the bows aren't composite, which they probably aren't. 13 and 18 while Raging.
And THAT'S only if you call each hit an actual HIT, and not arrows barely scratching or getting stuck in clothing or armor as near misses.
Even worse for the archers if he's an Invulnerable Rager. DR 3/- makes all of those pinpricks, requiring 21 arrows to down him with a composite bow, or a whopping 48 if not. Not Raging.
Not seeing the issue with him being 6th level.
Barristan Selmy hacked his way through a keep. He was not 6th level at his best, he would have to have been higher. A sixth level cavalier with no healing and no magic armour or shield would die long before getting to the the rescue target and would not have made it to safety battling all the while.
Why do you assume he's a Cavalier of all things, for one?
For two (and this applies to your bit about Brienne) too, a 6th level PC classed character can battle a bunch of 1st level Warriors (at best) with minimal effort.
Let's go back to my original theory that you could represent the Mountain that Rides with a level 6 Ogrekin Human Fighter with an oversized limb giving him still-greater strength...The entire world of Westeros is an E6 game.
Brienne, Bronn, Hound, The Mountain and the other extremely competent warriors are 5th or 6th level. They are comparatively amazing to everyone else.
That's why Medium and Large sized dragons are suck a big deal in Westeros. They're about CR 7 or 8 (but they still can be nearly killed by a mob of low level people in golden masks throwing spears).
If Bronn is 13th level, those dragons would have to be somewhere around CR 17 (unless you really think Bronn would have even a ghost of a chance of taking down Drogon).
The mountain is stabbed many many times with a spear before being nearly incapacitated.
In the books he is shot by longbowmen on a riverbank over and over, and he still manages to retreat with only minor wounds. He isn't equivalent to 6th level or under.
That everyone is six at max or under almost works, but not quite.
Jorah definitely got a 20 with that thrown spear and taking all those injuries in the pit fight signals he is one of the toughest around (but alas not the mountain tough, or with the mountain's hit die).
Barristan Selmy hacked his way through a keep. He was not 6th level at his best, he would have to have been higher. A sixth level cavalier with no healing and no magic armour or shield would die long before getting to the the rescue target and would not have made it to safety battling all the while.
Let's talk about Brienne again. In the books she takes down two parties of veteran rapist barbarians by herself. The villainous exploits of these barbarians and the number of people they have been killing was mentioned again and again.
Just because you can make a char at six or five and stat them up, doesn't mean that is an accurate reflection of the GOT heroes.
That definitely works.
Why stop at 6 though? Why not draw him up as a level 7 or 8?
If he was rampaging through the Riverlands, wouldn't he be leveling up?
That is my same thoughts on the Brave companions. You call them low level bandits, but their ferocity is drawing attention, they have killed many people (commoners and experts still count towards xp!) and they most certainly qualify in being "barbaric". One even bites her, let us not forget, which is an ability within the barbarian class. ;)
Wouldn't putting the mountain at level 8 (CR 7) be equivalent to fighting a remorhaz (a giant worm-like creature capable of swallowing a rhino) or 3 minotaurs? I never got the impression that mountain was this good.
The standard pathfinder minotaur is not some great mythic creature. AC 14, only +9/+4 to hit, +0 initiative, minotaurs are rubbish (but a great base on which to throw many barbarian levels upon with their nice str and con).
I think you could probably do a well enough representation of Bronn with a build like:
Middle-Aged Human Ranger 2/Slayer 3
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10 (10 point-buy)
Well said Mr. Pitt and cleanly to the point. Mentioning spellcasters reminded me of something very crucial.
Thoros of Myr, Cleric of the Lord of Light raised Beric Dondarrion from the dead multiple times.
For a cleric to do that they need to be level 9. It is a level 5 spell (6th for witches). He is at least level 9, such are the rules.
Because ASOIAF is such a strong example of six level games some people insist on forcing characters into minimalist builds. There are some amazing fighters and other classes in ASOIAF, just not that many casters yet. Syrio Forel is probably a Level 12 swashbuckler, for instance.
The difference is just mortality, but if you think of HPs as including luck/stamina, it's easy to see there many high level non-casters. And eventually I suspect that Bloodraven, Bran, and Sam at least are casters of a significant strength. But that doesn't mean there aren't several high level martial characters represented in the stories.
You're kidding, right?
Take a look at this list. Do you really think Syrio Forel could defeat any of those creatures?
Well said Mr. Pitt and cleanly to the point. Mentioning spellcasters reminded me of something very crucial.
Thoros of Myr, Cleric of the Lord of Light raised Beric Dondarrion from the dead multiple times.
For a cleric to do that they need to be level 9. It is a level 5 spell (6th for witches). He is at least level 9, such are the rules.
This is an excellent example of why Westeros doesn't translate very well into Pathfinder. Magic works extremely different.
Beric was able to return life to the dead, but he certainly couldn't Summon and Angel or Reshape stone with his mind, both of which are supposed to be easier than resurrecting someone.
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I won't speak for everyone as for what the reason is behind placing GoT at level 6 and under, but I'll share my reason.
They are impressive in the context of their setting, but you don't need double digit levels to be impressive. These are people who are good at beating other humans and such, but pathfinder is not just a game that has a few dragons and only humanoids with some animals as possible encounters.
Making someone level 12 (CR 11) means they are a challenge for a 40' tall elder earth elemental or a building sized dinosaur that can swallow a brachiosaurus whole and tank missile launchers (t-rex with the giant and invincible templates, also a CR 11 creature). Am I supposed to expect Syrio to challenge any of these creatures I mentioned? Putting these characters at a lower level isn't intended to disrespect them or anything, it's to properly put them at the correct CR in comparison to everything else the game has to offer.
That whole Thoros ressurection thing. When Beric lost to Sandor and then was immediately healed afterwards, that looks like cure light wounds to me than anything. Cure light wounds can heal mortally wounded people, too. Let's not get it twisted though, I'm just acknowledging the fact that you don't need high end magic to represent what happened; I'm not trying to put down the character or anything. Coincidently, not only is a 1st level warpriest able to heal the mortally wounded, but they also have an ability to make someone's weapon deal fire damage, too.
No, please do not move the goalposts now. Thoros is a veteran of the civil wars. He and Jorah were the first through the breached wall of Pyke. That was nine years before where the first book began.
So we have a cleric and veteran of multiple conflicts that can cast raise dead. This makes him at least level 9 in Pathfinder. Please realise you are trying to force all ASOF characters into minimalist builds.
Another ASOF character that could easily be over 6 is Loras. An incredibly skilled lancer renowned across Westeros, Tyrion thinks he is a legend, such are his victories at the lists and tournaments. He has won who knows how many contests (which would all be giving xp) with the result that while young and in his prime he is getting better and better at horsemanship and courageously charging into others (still growing, still leveling). His defensive skill was such that he could protect himself from Gregor's lance-wielding charges and block Clegane who tried to kill him in a berserk rage. Definitely above level 6, he is the best mounted knight in Westeros!
P.S I think Brienne is definitely better dismounted, besting him in melee at a tournament, of course her fate turns brutal and up close with her fights against barbaric marauders in the books (and knights and sellswords in the show). Brienne is another I think is better represented by being over level 6, withher str and con set very high. Loras would probably have magnificent dex (ac and bonus to ride). Loras as the finest lancer in Westeros does not fit as a level 6.
I won't speak for everyone as for what the reason is behind placing GoT at level 6 and under, but I'll share my reason.
They are impressive in the context of their setting, but you don't need double digit levels to be impressive. These are people who are good at beating other humans and such, but pathfinder is not just a game that has a few dragons and only humanoids with some animals as possible encounters.
Making someone level 12 (CR 11) means they are a challenge for a 40' tall elder earth elemental or a building sized dinosaur that can swallow a brachiosaurus whole and tank missile launchers (t-rex with the giant and invincible templates, also a CR 11 creature). Am I supposed to expect Syrio to challenge any of these creatures I mentioned? Putting these characters at a lower level isn't intended to disrespect them or anything, it's to properly put them at the correct CR in comparison to everything else the game has to offer.
That whole Thoros ressurection thing. When Beric lost to Sandor and then was immediately healed afterwards, that looks like cure light wounds to me than anything. Cure light wounds can heal mortally wounded people, too. Let's not get it twisted though, I'm just acknowledging the fact that you don't need high end magic to represent what happened; I'm not trying to put down the character or anything. Coincidently, not only is a 1st level warpriest able to heal the mortally wounded, but they also have an ability to make someone's weapon deal fire damage, too.
Dothrakis hunt white dire lions, called Hrakkar, while almost naked. Dire lions are CR 5. Apparently hunting them is a form of recreation.
For Thoros and the "ressurection thing" I did not say resurrection, I said raise dead. In the story Beric has been killed multiple times. Not knocked down and roughed up a bit, but straight out killed multiple times. Thoros then brought him back. Cure light won't do jack, as he was dead. As for being slain by Sandor in the show, he was almost cleaved in half diagonally, through armour, by Sandor's amazing strength. Not mortally wounded, not on -2, he was definitely dead. Then the high level cleric brought him back.
I think that in a Pathfinder campaign based on GoT the martial characters could be 6th level PC classes fighting low CR foes, or they could be 13th level PC classes fighting mid CR foes. I don't think it really matters much which way you prefer to see it. Either way the d20 hit point and AC system seems likely to cause some weirdness when comparing real life or stories aiming for realism to in game rules.
I'd been thinking of Thoros bringing back the dead when I mentioned 9th level casting earlier, but honestly somebody could ask if in game terms the Ultimate Mercy feat wouldn't be a better fit. That's available earlier though I suppose you'd still need something like Restoration if you hoped to use it on the same victim multiple times. I guess it could be argued that pegs GoT at about 7th level, but once again GoT is not Pathfinder and doesn't follow the Pathfinder rules, so trying to pin Pathfinder levels on it based on which magic is being used or even which enemies seem like they could be defeated is probably somewhat of an exercise in futility. I think even comparing real life combat or hunting to the Pathfinder rules would likely cause some dissonance.
That's not to say that you couldn't have a Pathfinder game set in Westeros or that making it a P6 style game might not help your group preserve what you feel is the proper mood for such a game, just that I think a non-P6 Westeros themed Pathfinder could be successful too, especially if steps were taken to limit casters at least early on. Maybe you'd even solve the often bemoaned martial vs caster disparity - at least for a while...
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Please realise you are trying to force all ASOF characters into minimalist builds.
Please realize you are vastly inflating the capabilities of all ASOIF characters according to the CR system.
6th level PCs or bust.
Bronn is a Martial Master + Lore Warden Fighter. Light armour, improvisation, great at tricks, can fight defensively, knows more than a fighter ought to.
Dothrakis hunt white dire lions, called Hrakkar, while almost naked. Dire lions are CR 5. Apparently hunting them is a form of recreation.
Yes, a party of CR 6 or below characters should be able to take on a CR 5 creature with minimal difficulty, thanks for pointing out how the CR system works.
For Thoros and the "ressurection thing" I did not say resurrection, I said raise dead. In the story Beric has been killed multiple times. Not knocked down and roughed up a bit, but straight out killed multiple times. Thoros then brought him back. Cure light won't do jack, as he was dead. As for being slain by Sandor in the show, he was almost...
Except he clearly doesn't cast Raise Dead. Raise Dead doesn't leave you with gruesome disfiguring injuries, and an almost undead pallor upon being brought back.
It's a different spell entirely.
Of course if you really wanna stat him up as a level 6 character who can Raise Dead...you can.
Paladin 6. Cha 20. Greater Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands as Feats.
Nab Ultimate Mercy. Ta da.
Bonus points for Divine Bond letting him set his sword on fire.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it: NOTHING a Game of Thrones character does requires a higher level than 6.
If you compare the "average" soldier in Westeros, they would be akin to the warrior NPC class.
So, if you were to take Jamie Lannister, or another of these characters who exceed the abilities of the common man by far, they wouldn't necessarily NEED to be very high leveled.
Now, some may argue that they would need to be a certain level to qualify for feats, etc., but I don't think this is the case. It's all relative. A 6-10th level Jamie wouldn't need lvl 10+ abilities to easily stomp the lights out of regular warrior types and a group of warriors might have a chance of bringing him down. He's good, but he's not a god...
As far as stats, this is potentially where you can further differentiate between the common soldier and heroes. The Mountain would quite obviously boast great strength and possibly constitution. You wouldn't need to hold yourself to ONE type of character creation system for stats. One character might be a base bonus to Str, as that character in the books or show is very strong, etc. If using a point-buy system, you might give the more skilled heroes a 25 pt. buy and everyone else a 15 or 20 even. You could divide all the characters on that 3 tier scale of power levels.
As an additional note: You can homebrew the crap out of this for thematic reasons.
If your want Thoros to raise someone but he is a fighter, give him access to a spell or ability. It's a deity that GRANTS him this power anyway, right? Before that, he was simply a fighter or rogue probably.
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I'd say there's some dudes that are higher than level 6 on Westeros, but they are the great minority.
Arthur Dayne is probably level 8 or 9, for example.
But overall, we are looking at the 4-6 range.
There's literally no logic behind these posts claiming what level the characters are; just base assertions.
If you want to build many of the martial characters you'll need more feats and BAB than granted by a level 4 to 6 character.
I've proven this wrong quite a few times already.
What has ANY character done that requires a level higher than 6?
Dothrakis hunt white dire lions, called Hrakkar, while almost naked. Dire lions are CR 5. Apparently hunting them is a form of recreation.
Yes, a party of CR 6 or below characters should be able to take on a CR 5 creature with minimal difficulty, thanks for pointing out how the CR system works.
For Thoros and the "ressurection thing" I did not say resurrection, I said raise dead. In the story Beric has been killed multiple times. Not knocked down and roughed up a bit, but straight out killed multiple times. Thoros then brought him back. Cure light won't do jack, as he was dead. As for being slain by Sandor in the show, he was almost...Except he clearly doesn't cast Raise Dead. Raise Dead doesn't leave you with gruesome disfiguring injuries, and an almost undead pallor upon being brought back.
It's a different spell entirely.
Of course if you really wanna stat him up as a level 6 character who can Raise Dead...you can.
Paladin 6. Cha 20. Greater Mercy, Extra Lay on Hands as Feats.
Nab Ultimate Mercy. Ta da.
Bonus points for Divine Bond letting him set his sword on fire.
I've said it before and I'll repeat it: NOTHING a Game of Thrones character does requires a higher level than 6.
Khal Drogo killed it and displayed it. Please rein in your passive aggression if you want to have a conversation.
If you are certain the leader of a Mongol-like horde is only 6th level, that is a restriction you yourself are imposing. He could easily be higher, there is an old convention that great leaders are at least level 9, and pathfinder puts rulers and leaders far higher than that even when they do not have many accomplishments, but you don't want to accept that because you have locked yourself into a position.
I don't accept it because there's no reason for it.
Nothing anybody in the series has accomplished requires a character higher than 6th level, and nothing any f them has done INDICATES a level higher than 6.
A single level 6 character can roflstomp a single CR 5 creature pretty easily.
And a level 6 character is still within the range that a festering wound (i.e. a disease or poison) isn't a trivial, non debilitating factor.
There's literally no logic behind these posts claiming what level the characters are; just base assertions.
If you want to build many of the martial characters you'll need more feats and BAB than granted by a level 4 to 6 character.
I've proven this wrong quite a few times already.
What has ANY character done that requires a level higher than 6?
It is not just what they have done, it is the history of accomplishments and victories that would make specific ASOF characters higher than level 6.
Loras, winning tournaments over and over, until he is the most accomplished lancer across multiple feudal territories. He wouldn't be six with all that xp coming his way, he would be higher.
Jorah and Thoros, veterans of multiple wars and conflicts over many years. They wouldn't be level six or below either.
Daario, champion of the fighting pits (where he fought for years), experienced mercenary then commander of a mercenary army. He would not be level six either.
Oberyn, like Daario a champion of the fighting pits, a renowned explorer and adventurer, founded his own mercenary company, a master of poisons, a duelist, forged six maester links. If you think this character is level 6, you simply don't want him to be higher.
Your restriction only works if it doesn't matter what they have actually done, they can't get above level 6. This would be a rule you would have to impose in your game. The accomplishments of multiple characters merit being higher than 6.
The only measure we have for judging any character in any story that exists outside the pathfinder rules is the actual things they are described doing.
The only measure we have for judging those things is the CR system.
We can look at a Hrakkar and say "that's pretty much a dire lion" and then we can look at a dire lion and see that it is CR 5.
Someone who can defeat a Hrakkar but still be in a lot of danger while facing it would be level 5.
That's what CR 5 means.
If you start statting Khal Drogo as a 10th level character, suddenly you have to create a CR 10 Hrakkar. That Hrakkar has to be on par with things like a Fire Giant and a Young Adult Black Dragon.
So unless you really think Drogo would have a fair shot alone against Drogon, the only smart thing to do is to use the CR system as it already exists and use that as the benchmark for a character's power level.
I really don't understand what is so difficult to grasp about this. Why would Bronn need to be 12th level? What has he ever done that a person would need to be 12th level in order to accomplish?
This has been discussed to death. (scroll down to the section on analyzing Aragon).
A character's power level is based on the comparison with the world around them. That's the only measure we have, and the only tool we can use to translate other stories into game terms.
If Bronn is 12th level that means he could kill Drogon without breaking a sweat. I really don't see that happening.