Goblin Squad Member
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But again, don't take Andius' talk as an accusation, EvE's model is a pretty good one.
Sure. I said in another more slightly gloves off forum that the issue with Pay to Win (Talking in terms of my definition that real world money can purchase in-game advantages but not necessarily golden bullets.) is it offends unemployed basement dwelling virgins who expect that the fact they can draw their check from my tax money or mommy/daddy rather than earning it should enable them to dominate every game, which they believe should be Play to Win.
Pay or Play to win is a model that enables someone with a steady job and social life to invest a bit of the money they work so hard to earn staying on a more competitive level, and that's a good thing IMO.
So I'm not actually accusing PFO of doing something wrong. ArcheAge has it's own version of PLEX which is great as it actually opens everything in the market place up to purchase with in-game gold and enables you to invest a bit of RL money to jumpstart your ability to earn gold in game. I just went opted for the 15$ a month myself but I have advised a few people willing to put down more money to use APEX to buy themselves farming land and a trade cart.
The simple point is the Play to Win purists who would point the finger of Pay to Win accusation at Star Citizen as an insult should examine the PLEX system Ryan plans to implement and realize their game will be the same way.
Star Citizen didn't start with some huge advantage over Pathfinder Online other than the leadership of Chris Roberts.That was the main advantage it has over any other indie game out there, I wouldn't pass it over so lightly.
Who says I'm passing it over lightly? I've said many time on these boards that I spent about 5 years play Freelancer and have many timed described it as the best game ever made. Freelancer of course being the last Chris Robert's game published before Star Citizen.
Chris Robert's leadership is a HUGE advantage but that leads to one simple and inevitable conclusion:
A huge advantage of Star Citizen is that Chris Roberts > Ryan Dancey.
Unfortunately in the realm of MMOs I can't simply sit back and say "That's not a fair fight, so I'll give you a pass." Ryan chose to put on the gloves and step into the ring so I've got to address him as if he were a serious contender even if the matchup has him looking like Peewee Herman vs The Rock.
Both games ask people for their time and money and pity points won't sway their decision of where to spend those.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow I wonder what Andius is doing in all those other games he's paying attention to because he doesn't care about Pathfinder Online and never thinks about it and has forever ceased testing the software or reading the forums about it because it's so awful and just a waste of his supremely valuable time.
Well, I guess we'll never know.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once I've decided to invest in it, the names of people attached to the project don't influence my enjoyment of it. It's whether I enjoy playing it. I can understand that for others, their feelings are so strong (either pro or con) that they can affect whether they like the game. I don't believe that's going to be the average player however.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wow I wonder what Andius is doing in all those other games he's paying attention to because he doesn't care about Pathfinder Online and never thinks about it and has forever ceased testing the software or reading the forums about it because it's so awful and just a waste of his supremely valuable time.
Well, I guess we'll never know.
Glad you asked. I hit level 50 in Archeage, and am currently building up gear and assets. I joined a fresh PvP guild that has since grown fairly powerful and decided to place me in one of the top three ranking positions (one of the two people on equal level directly below the leader) even though I didn't ask for it.
I still have friends in this community, and I still am upset with those who trashed both what I built, and encouraged Ryan in the decisions that trashed this entire game.
Sometimes especially ridiculous points made on these forums are relayed to me by those I still care about here, but it hasn't stopped me from enjoying my new home or rising in power there.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I know people who are still playing MUDs and other early MMO's that have a strong community and the players view it as a success. I think defining the "success" of a title varies quite differently among players, developers, financial backers, and the press/nonplayers. Even among players, opinions will vary because most people, when they are predicting success, are using a value system that really means "success to people just like me". Many of the statements declared authoritatively in this thread should really have IMHO after them, but then again, may not be that humble :)
Keeping a non-F2P model and getting all investment back is a good indicator.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I read here that the crafting system is a real star of PFO and to be honest, I haven't given that system much of my time .
I will dedicate done time to it when I log in tonight. My comparison will be pretty stiff competition for it, including: Star Wars Galaxies, Fallen Earth and Life is Feudal.
It's familiar to Fallen Earth. You go scrounge up mats in nodes scattered around the world. If you have the knowledge to make something you use those mats (and refined parts) and a real world timer starts. When it's finished you get the item. The biggest difference is that in PFO you have to be at a crafting station to start making your item. I've found it to be enjoyable in both games and convenient in that I'm not forced to sit around crafting if I don't want to, I can go off and kill things while my stuff is being made.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Pay to Win is yet to be seen. If they offer no items that give a mechanical advantage in game from the PLEX system than it is not Pay to Win.You obviously don't understand how PLEX works, nor do any of the people who favorited your post apparently.
You go to the Goblinworks and buy an item with money. That item is sent to you character and can be redeemed for microtransaction currency or subscription time.
It can also be sold on the open market to other players for gold. That's it's primary purpose as generally a PLEX type item costs more than regular subscription time. So in order for PLEX to not be pay to win there would have to be nothing that gives a mechanical advantage you can purchase with regular gold.
Ryan has said PFO will have PLEX so unless he goes back on that PFO will have an element of pay to win. Period.
The reason PLEX receives less backlash than other Pay to Win systems is it allows the unemployed no-lifers with unlimited gaming time who are most opposed to Pay to Win systems to pay for their game time with in-game currency. It's still a system which is just as much Pay to Win as if you could purchase the items directly with real world money.
That's the same P2W status that would exist if you were paying someone in China to farm for you. Or to play your character for you, for things that cannot be traded. By that standard, almost literally every game is P2W. The exceptions are games that have zero persistence, like Counterstrike.
I read here that the crafting system is a real star of PFO and to be honest, I haven't given that system much of my time .
I will dedicate done time to it when I log in tonight. My comparison will be pretty stiff competition for it, including: Star Wars Galaxies, Fallen Earth and Life is Feudal.
Another important thing to keep in mind about Crafting is that nothing really worth making can be made without two different Refiners. If you are trying to do this all on 1 character, Bludd, you will have to level everything in parallel, and will likely need Refiner Skill 1 @ Rank 3 and Refiner Skill 2 @ Rank 1 or 2 just to make a T1+0 item. Basically, Crafting is a team sport or a "I have 6 accounts" sport.
Alchemy+Apothecary is the most fun of the lot to work with due to just how many inputs it takes, and the fact that each of the raw items can be used as either-or. Other Crafting trees are a bit more straightforward.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius. I see an extremely meaningful difference between titles where your account will be banned if you are caught buying in-game items with real world money and ones where the company who runs the title are selling them to you.
I suppose you can define that as Pay to Win as many get away with it, but I find that a major stretch given the number of people I've known and heard of that lost accounts over it. Getting banned isn't exactally winning.
Regardless it's a moot point. However you want to define Pay to Win PFO and Star Citizen are on the same level and that was the main point.
@Anyone
I'm really curious how PFOs crafting system could be defined as as anything better than average at best, and what other crafting systems you are using as a basis of comparison.
My observation was that you have recipes that require specific materials to produce a specific item. All items produced with the same recipe are the same. The same as WoW and most generic MMOs.
Having played multiple titles where the same item produced in different ways / with different materials effect it's properties the addition of EVE style building times seems like a very shallow difference to me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius
I'm taking the bait - guess you will find ways why it isn't great.
Step 1: Gathering
This seems something taking for granted - but if you have done any serious gathering you will notice that the gathering is quite involved.
You start with the simple - 4 main area types - mountain, woods, highlands and crop lands. You expect iron in the mountain and pine or yew in the woods - easy?
Dig a little bit deeper and you find regional variations. Finding your iron is straight forward - but once you need something less common - say copper - and you find enough players strugling as it is pretty restricted to a single area.
So you will find larger patterns of materials in regard to resources and more located ones - especially in regard to mittens.
Knowing these patterns can make a huge difference how effective you and your settlement are. As a PvPer you should appreciate what a 2 or 4 fold advantage finding a certain resource is worth while - or what it means not finding it at all because you don't know where to look.
In addition this distribution will mean trade or travel or both. I hated Foxfire in early alpha as I tended to stumble all over in in the woods I gathered. But around Emerald Lodge you just don't get the stuff - unless you go far enough. And with far enough I talk into areas that will be under control of another settlement.
The whole distribution is well done - with the core resources (iron, coal) everywhere close albeit of course rare in some areas while some less common resources (lesser luminous, weak acidic) might be absent from some areas completely but are common elsewhere.
Refining:
You can go for 0, +1, +2 or +3. All the + refining is only been done via recipe. This means you need collaboratuon again if you want to make something better as +0. My smelter is still missing a few tier 1 recipes despite players providing me with recipes and me scouting out auction houses.
There is also a steep slope in cost. Actually this was only introduced during alpha as the original slope was meaningless - leading you to do +3 on default. Take steel wire - the +0 version is 10 coal and 10 iron - the +3 version is 38 coal, 37 iron and 5 ordered essence.
You can use any mix of + refined goods. To me the sweetspot in tier 1 is +2 as to take advantage of +3 means that you rather use a tier 2 item instead as you reeach that earlier.
So yes - ideally you might just use only +2 ingredients - that is if you have all the recipes. If not then you substitute and might have to do with suboptimal resources mixing +1 with +2 and +3 - the latter to even out the +1.
And yes - there is also the rare (1-4%) raw material that is refinded as a ++1 or ++2 which means an added +1 or +2. These can be crucial rare refinded materials early on when you miss the + recipe or later on they are the only source of +4 or +5 which will be exeedingly rare crafted items.
Crafting:
This leads to the crafting. The better your skill and the place to make something the faster it goes. I'm currently waiting since Christmas Eve on my tier 2 +1 Dwarven Banded Steel. This isn't something you churn out lots of quickly - or you need to really rachet up your skill. A normal banded Steel and Hide. I remeber when it took 33 hours - now I can make it in 17 minutes with Thod.
So equipping a settlement for a war needs resources as well as the right skilled people. With good enough crafters you can keep your players equipped to a much higher level as your enemy.
But early on it also needs either critical mass or good collaboration. The easiest tier 2 wizard armor needs 4 level 9 skills - 3 refining and 1 crafting - not counting the 3 level 7 gathering skills as well. As a settlement you are either large enough to rely on it, know people to trade with or organize it early on so that you are able to make these if you are a wizard community.
If you have a big enough reputation then someone will equip you as you might offer enough in return. But as a settlement you better understand the gathering, refining, crafting issues and all that is necessary - or you will figure out that you will be equipped in inferior ways.
There are players who like the building and exploring part and for them there is enough to enjoy and collaborate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Decius. I see an extremely meaningful difference between titles where your account will be banned if you are caught buying in-game items with real world money and ones where the company who runs the title are selling them to you.
I suppose you can define that as Pay to Win as many get away with it, but I find that a major stretch given the number of people I've known and heard of that lost accounts over it. Getting banned isn't exactally winning.
Regardless it's a moot point. However you want to define Pay to Win PFO and Star Citizen are on the same level and that was the main point.
@Anyone
I'm really curious how PFOs crafting system could be defined as as anything better than average at best, and what other crafting systems you are using as a basis of comparison.
My observation was that you have recipes that require specific materials to produce a specific item. All items produced with the same recipe are the same. The same as WoW and most generic MMOs.
Having played multiple titles where the same item produced in different ways / with different materials effect it's properties the addition of EVE style building times seems like a very shallow difference to me.
Refining Recipes of the +1 through +3 variety make that specific item, and have a chance for higher quality items coming out of the mix if you have a pretty high skill level. You can get up to +4s/+5s.
Now, where the fun part, to me at least comes in, is in the actual Crafting bits. You have to play around with them quite a bit to get exactly what you want. Your skill determines how much of a bonus you start out with in a bar at the top, and you have to use varying +1 to +5 Refined Components from different refiners to get a +1 to +5 product. It allows you to use lower end components if you would like to make better quality items.
Now, you do get a specific Recipe, say Yew and Iron Splint, that makes exactly Yew and Iron Splint, but there are two layers of creating some different. The one I stated above, giving you a +1 to +5 version of the item (each changing how it looks), and if you make +4/+5 items you will eventually be able to enchant them.
Meaning every +4/+5 item could possibly be very different/unique. While +0-+3 are the same, except for dying them. Although, if you don't have access to the right recipes, then you might not even be able to make +1-+3 versions.
I think the enchanting will really expand this system making things more unique. The preview we saw showed that you could add various enchantments onto the item based on what specific essences you had on you at the time of creation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And I forgot one part of the crafting: Redundancy
Why is this important? For starters - I eluded to it by mixing +1 and +3 to make +2. But it also means you might go for cold iron weapons in a iron rich / coal scrace area.
I went for Pot and Steel as preferred Heavy armour because hides are not that easy to come by and Pot and Steel just seemed the easier way our compared to Hide and Banded.
No copper - as long as you don't need too much you might get by with salvaged goblin weapons.
No hides - go hunting wolfs.
These non-optiomal choices have a cost. One is encumbrance - the other is scracicity - but the whole system allows multiple ways to reach a goal albeit better and worse ones which is important as it means choice and playstyle matters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What Thod said.
There is depth within the system, quite a bit of it, so I think of Crafting in PFO as more than just mediocre. When they introduce gushers, salvaging, and enchanting the system might rival EVE and Fallen Earth. Right now, its still better than generic MMOs.
With Gushers introduced, it will also kick up PvE a notch to above Mediocre in my book as well since escalations, to me, are meh. Everything they have on their list to do in the next 3 months, I think this game as a real shot at becoming something really good. There are plenty of things I think are meh/ok/suck right now, but I am optimistic that they are making progress.
Now, Andius, as well as everyone else that makes comparisons with this game and others, I agree that these other game are competition, but here is what I do disagree with you all about:
Comparing games that have had 18-24 months more development time under their belt.
I urge you all to check back in 3-6 months, and see the progress of the game. From what I have personally seen, and what I have personally been a part of in a lot of Alphas, GW has done a great job on progression. Yes, we still have a mediocre game here, but its a game that has been delivered in half the time of other companies (if not faster). We have something to play around with, while other parts of the game are developed.
Personally, with the time and money I have put into the game, I plan on giving it about a year. I have a few personal mechanic/systems, and customization that I want to see, and I feel optimistic that those minimums will be met in a 12 month time frame.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be clear I consider EVE to have an extremely mediocre crafting system as well. Examples of good crafting systems would be Mortal Online and Wurm Online.
For Example if you want to make a sword. You pick the blade type you want and the hilt you want. You then choose the materials that go into those specific components. Such as say the base and wrapping of the hilt. This might be any type of wood, bone etc. for the base. There are many types of leather and fabric you might use to wrap it. Each of these are going to give different properties. Some weapons will have a lighter weight. Some do more damage. Materials largely effect the draw strength of bows etc. most resources are only available in specific areas which is fine given how many options you have on what to use. In an area with few trees? Use bone. I could go on more about the depth of systems like animal breeding but I think you get the picture.
With Wurm resource types aren't nearly as detailed (though they are still important) but what it lacks in that area it makes up for in the fact you can be a full time crafter. Not a harvester + crafter but a pure crafter. The improvement system makes crafting a long drawn out process that is WAY more complex than the standard get the materials and execute the recipe system. I actually spent about a week working on a set of 5 items once. Unlike most games the final products were worth many times as much as the resources I put into making them.
As far as I'm aware PFO is never planning to approach that level of detail. Ever. It's really kind of incompatible with the systems they've already established.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That's the same P2W status that would exist if you were paying someone in China to farm for you. Or to play your character for you, for things that cannot be traded. By that standard, almost literally every game is P2W. The exceptions are games that have zero persistence, like Counterstrike.
P2W is when the company offers you an advantage over other people, by paying money to the company. What you are talking about is just cheating, behind the back of the game's company.
You do understand that no one, not even Andius and me the big bad evil frustrated haters, is complaining or criticising the game, here ? we never said that PFO was a game with a P2W economic model, which isn't the case, we are just stating that there is some measure of it. Not enough for it to be a problem, or to qualify the game as a "P2W", but still.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as I'm aware PFO is never planning to approach that level of detail. Ever.
I don't see many people on the Paizo boards complaining that the tabletop game isn't as engaging as Dragon Age TT or D&D or Warhammer FRPG or Shadowrun or some other ruleset. I also don't see anyone on here complaining about PFO because there's no third person isometric point and click option, or first person targeting mode.
Some people prefer RPGs with multiple layers of damage points; one set of hit points vs vitality/wounds is one common split in d20. Some games have hit locations and others have no points at all and use condition tracks instead. To each his own.
Using chess as an analogy sometimes having a simpler limited base of rules makes a more engaging long term game. Crafting, for me personally, feels much more engaging as we're reaching tier 2 items now, several months into the game. I'm sure with tier 3 the choices will be even more strategic. The linear xp track that everyone in the game follows has an important impact on the overall progression of the world. The system provides a very strong socioeconomic link.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with systems like Mortal Online are that while theoretically you can make a billion different items, 99.9999% of them are useless and everyone runs around with the same 20.
Sure you will have the odd player who just wants to be different and such a system affords that to the player but full-loot PvP games are dominated by Min/Maxers and those folks quickly find the "best" combination and that's what gets crafted.
I have to agree with Calidor here, no matter how much uniqueness there is, most people are going to min/max. If you are in charge of a Settlement's armed forces, there is no way you are letting your people go out with subpar gear, unless that is all that is available. You would research the best stuff you can from the resources you have, and work around that.
For instance, in the SE mountains we have a lot of Iron and Silver, we could just make weapons minus the coal.
The only thing I can think of is using a crafting system like that to create new strategies, but since this entire game is based off of Keywords, I don't think that would work. Also, I think enchanting is where we are going to a lot more variety.
Although, they could add various combat bonuses based on components and/or Keywords to really make things kind of cool.
Like for instance if you use +3 or greater Iron Ingots in a Weapon it gives the weapon a +1 to hit, or the Basic Strips could give the weapon a 2-3% increase in the duration of their timed abilities.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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That "1,000 options, 1 meaningful choice" problem is my analysis too. It's illusionary depth. It also creates a nightmare if you want to have a player-driven economy because you can saturate the market with goods that are extremely hard to distinguish and that makes clearing sales inefficient. The market will standardize on a few options, those will get all the activity, and anyone who wants to explore the design space will find themselvrs at a tremendous ecoomic disadvantage meaning few will bother. It is the classic trap of a game system that drives a huge investment of time and resources for very little value.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That "1,000 options, 1 meaningful choice" problem is my analysis too. It's illusionary depth. It also creates a nightmare if you want to have a player-driven economy because you can saturate the market with goods that are extremely hard to distinguish and that makes clearing sales inefficient. The market will standardize on a few options, those will get all the activity, and anyone who wants to explore the design space will find themselvrs at a tremendous ecoomic disadvantage meaning few will bother. It is the classic trap of a game system that drives a huge investment of time and resources for very little value.
So far, I kind of like Star Trek Online's item choice system for ship consoles. Sure, there are hundreds of crap consoles, but there are about 20 good solid choices, and only 11 slots to put them in. Yes, STO has a LOT of other problems, but in this one area, of having more different "minmaxed" items available than can be used on one ship you do get a type of choice. This creates some actual depth and choice in the game.
Having said that, I'm not really certain how PFO can emulate it. Have three or four meaningful choices for each slot? Might be able to do that with utility slots to some degree, not so certain about weapons.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That "1,000 options, 1 meaningful choice" problem is my analysis too. It's illusionary depth. It also creates a nightmare if you want to have a player-driven economy because you can saturate the market with goods that are extremely hard to distinguish and that makes clearing sales inefficient. The market will standardize on a few options, those will get all the activity, and anyone who wants to explore the design space will find themselvrs at a tremendous ecoomic disadvantage meaning few will bother. It is the classic trap of a game system that drives a huge investment of time and resources for very little value.
Except if you make the effort, to make it viable. It is obviously a design choice, but it is entirely possible, if resources are too much limited for everyone.
If you have a population of 100 000 players, with a need of 500 000 MacGuffin/month, and there is 1000 different combinations to make a MacGuffin, you just have two make it so that the necessary resources just aren't there. People WILL, use crappy components, if they don't have anything else. Go play in Providence, seriously, you will know what means "do what you can with what you have".
In PFO, if there is a very limited unique top end resource in each region region under different powers, you will certainly see people adapt to their environment.
And you shouldn't underestimate the satisfaction of players in having the possibility to choose between using bones or wood to make a bow, even if there isn't any difference at all.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I see your last statement there Audoucet, and think, that last bit is already in the game, and that is the choice to:
A) Use Coal and Iron, B) Use Iron and Silver, C) Use Loads of Iron
It allows for 5 areas of the map:
NW has option A
NE has option C
Middle has option C
SW has to import no matter what
SE has option B
Now for actual Bows, ok maybe they can add in some more options, maybe we could actually find bone to make bows, or other substances. My point is that the system is already in place to allow you to make meaningful choices based on what resources are available in your area.
There are limited unique resources in every area as well.
The biggest difference I see is the fact we use recipes. If they got rid of all the recipes, and you just threw in what ever to make what you wanted, but there are only several hundred actual choices like there are now, it would be very similar to the same thing. I however am not advocating a system like that, because of one of the things Ryan outlined above, those systems tend to have weird affects on the economy, and eventually the market will settle on a few things that work. To have optimization, for the sake of optimization, is subpar in comparison to having a tighter, narrower, fixed path with some uniqueness in the form of enchanting.
On top of this, as we level, its not like were stuck in one path of armor or weapons.
The enchanting system will allow for some truly unique items I believe. If you see a guy with a sword that is flaming, I think that person might end up being a higher target, or someone with armor glowing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That "1,000 options, 1 meaningful choice" problem is my analysis too. It's illusionary depth. It also creates a nightmare if you want to have a player-driven economy because you can saturate the market with goods that are extremely hard to distinguish and that makes clearing sales inefficient. The market will standardize on a few options, those will get all the activity, and anyone who wants to explore the design space will find themselvrs at a tremendous ecoomic disadvantage meaning few will bother. It is the classic trap of a game system that drives a huge investment of time and resources for very little value.
One meaningful option of 1000 is not a reflection that a system that allows for a high level of customization is bad but that you designed it poorly. The key to having more than one meaningful option is:
1. Multiple meaningful stats that must be weighed against one another. I'm sure I don't need to explain to you the idea that there is no "best" weapon in most games. It is entirely dependent on what works best for the build you want.
2. If goods are localized, travel times are significant, banditry is a real possibility, and items are being filtered out of the economy over time through gear loss etc. then the most effective groups would find what the best items that could be cheaply produced in their area were rather than importing goods from all over the map to produce a single "best" item. The best part is a changing political climate would keep this ever changing as diplomatic relations with the owners of various harvesting regions, and the safety of traveling through different areas changed.
All of this can work in a player driven economy just not your economy. You'd probably want player run storefronts as opposed to auction houses, where you could browse through their wares and see stats displayed in an easily digestible format.
I don't believe such a detailed crafting system is optimal for PFO. That's just the kind of things I would be looking for if the crafting system was the highlight of the game. In other words I find it funny that's what people are saying the highlight of PFO is, or would claim it's the best ever.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The differences listed just seen extremely subtle and not that meaningful. In the end it's the same crafting process you would expect to find in a general MMO:
1. Find the recipe you want to create.
2. Acquire resources.
3. Queue the automated creation process.
PFO's Crafting System is to WoW's Crafting system as General WoW-Clone is to WoW. A few differences but mostly the same.
It's not like say Wurm where it is both profitable and enjoyable to log on and do nothing but blacksmithing all day or Mortal where you can experiment with your recipes to get exactally the properties you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think an important part of PFO's crafting system is that it is designed to become part of an Economy that is based on availability and scarcity of resources, the transportation of these and the political landscape.
Apart from the Harvesting/depleting nodes/several-tiers feature which obviously is an important part of this formula, I think the timers that crafting uses reflect this too. And these timers again rely on the quality of the Settlement and the quality of the crafters in that settlement(a political quality). Events like sending out a caravan with high quality swords and a bunch of high level potions towards a warzone or Settlement that desperately needs them will have to be synchronized with craftinglines (and harvesters/traders to get ingredients).
Traders working with Crafters working with Transporters working with the Settlement Leaderships, and this whole machine spurred on by Politics.
At least this is the level of depth that I am hoping for when I think of PFO.
The crafting proces in itself is pretty standard.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ehhh, I think a lot of subtleties make this more than just a standard Crafting system. I have done some crafting in other games, its much less tedious here, and I feel like I am a part of something bigger than in games I could essentially do everything by myself.
@Tyncale, I pretty much agree with you the entire system is designed around the complexities of settlement to settlement politics, and just working together on a large scale. There are only maybe half a dozen games out there that have designed, while doing a good job, a system that supports large scale economics, I do believe PFO will be added to that list in short order.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The crafting proces in itself is pretty standard.
And there we have the truth of the matter from one of the fans themselves.
When talking about how it will interact with settlement warfare and politics you're dipping into a mixture of what you've been told is coming and speculation.
I believe the product you'll eventually see won't be near as fun as what you currently have envisioned.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When talking about how it will interact with settlement warfare and politics you're dipping into a mixture of what you've been told is coming and speculation.
I believe the product you'll eventually see won't be near as fun as what you currently have envisioned.
This is currently in place. Building an effective Tier 2 character requires positive diplomacy, teamwork, dedication and luck.
Andius, this is evident right now for something as seemingly basic as trying to cast a 4th level spell (not cantrip). Crafting and its relationship with character advancement is more complicated than you're giving it credit for.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Life is Feudal has a multi-layered system that works like this:
Character has the desire to be an armorsmith. He skills up:
Prospect to 30 -> Mining to 30 -> Smelting to 30 -> Forging to 30 -> Armorsmithing is then unlocked and can be leveled to 30.
If the armorsmith wants to be higher skilled, than he must have each of the prerequisite skills leveled to 60 (minimum). Then he can raise his Armorsmithing to 100 if he chooses.
How to make quality level 100 armor?
You need quality level 100 materials and level 100 skill in gathering those materials or in putting quality level 100 materials together.
How to get quality 80 materials to become quality 100 armor?
First you need a Bloomery, which adds 10% to the result. Bloomeries also have a quality level, but 10% bonus is the base.
You also need a blacksmith's anvil that is quality level 100, and obviously tools that are q. 100.
To answer the question, Refining is how you get lower quality materials to become higher quality materials.
The process is to smelt iron bars; make them into armor pieces; melt the armor pieces into iron clusters; melt the iron clusters into bars (now higher quality); make into new higher quality items.
You repeat this process until you can take quality 80+ iron ore and turn out quality 100 metal tools, weapons and armor.
Where do the other players come in?
You need Carpenters and Tanners to get the wood shafts of weapons and the leather needed to make armor and weapons. Their items also have to be q. 100 if the Armorsmith wants to make q. 100 armor.
Tanners need to be supplied with hides from slaughterhouses (q.100) or Hunters that can harvest q. 100 hides.
Specialization?
When the MMO version of the game is released, skill level progression will be set at level 1.0 (although I doubt this will be as slow as they currently have that value mean).
Skill point cap for each category of skills (Crafting, Martial, General, Social) will be capped at 600 per page.
So the above Armorsmith would have to expend:
Prospecting = 60
Mining = 60
Smelting = 100
Forging = 100
Armorsmithing = 100
or 420/600 points = You can only master one crafting skill.
The Consequences of Death?
Anytime you die you will lose some skill points from a random selection of about 3 skills. If that lose comes from any of your prerequisites, you will have to build those skills back up again, to unlock the upper level skill.
In most cases an additional 5 points in each prerequisite is enough to cover you for about 3 deaths.
Respeccing?
For each skill or attribute you have, you can set an Arrow on it to: Point Up = Increase; Lock = Hold; Point Down = Decrease.
If you hit level cap in one skill, and then decide to change direction, you set that skill to "Down" and the new skill to "Up'. As you skill up int he new skill, it will automatically pull from any skill set to "Down".
You can effectively, completely repecc a character in the same time that it took you to develop that character up to that point.
Comparing this system to PFO:
The biggest differences are that that skill points are gained by doing activities, not through the expenditure of experience points. Experience points are not gained over time, but instead you have a pool of experience points that can be spent over time (by doing) into the skill you wish to have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Bluddwolf. Last time I was on LiF your skill level in a prerequisite skill had to be as high or higher than all the skills further up the chain. So 500 points to fully max a tree. Did that change?
Apparently so, you only need 60 in the prerequisites, but if you die and lose 1 point (going to 59), you will lose access to all skills above 30. So as I wrote earlier, you should train up to at least 65 to give that Death Penalty cushion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So, grinding mining is the cost of doing business as a blacksmith? I can see the game theory reasons for that, but they are all based around using artificial limits to options.
Not that it is all that time consuming, and the resource is needed to level up the next few stages of your progression towards Armorsmith.
In LiF you don't have to take any action, or spend time doing anything that is not directly related to your end goal. Any gating or grinding that does exist has several benefits.
I don't have to kill anything to be an armorsmith, nor do I have to fry an egg in order to make a sword. Attributes are managed by the player, and set to the levels that we want. They go up or down based on how we set them, and what activities we do.
Want a higher Willpower, set it to Increase, and then do activities that raise Willpower.
1) What you'd say if you could only say one, honest, thing to try to get someone to try PFO.
Despite some arguments and a few crazies, the PFO community is one of the best of any MMO.
While a lot of people look for games because of mechanics and what you can/can not do, I would say just as many people are looking for a solid gaming community. A good gaming community can lead you to a group that aligns with your own goals, can provide support, friendship, and help you get past parts of the game you think are subpar (every game as these moments).
2) What you'd say if you could only say one honest thing to try to stop someone from trying PFO.
This is a game where you have to pay to play beta.
I have actually said this to a few people, people I know who make judgement calls too early, in my opinion. I generally want everyone to check out the game, but some people need to stay away until they can get on board with features that will keep them occupied.
Yeah, I'd say if you think this game will go anywhere at all, I would try it because the community is dedicated and overall good. Especially in terms of a sandbox community with pvp.
In regards to not playing, I would just say that I don't believe it's going to be what it was sold as. To us, and the earlier ones. The vision buyers bought, but to sell the actual game now will be much harder. I don't see anything redeeming about this game. I don't HATE it. It doesn't make me angry. I never felt griefed or overworked by its systems. It was just after about I dunno... 20-30 hours I felt I understood it and where it would go. I don't believe the foundation can support interesting game play, for me.
And this is coming from someone who sold people on the game. I convinced people to buy in. Seems as though there is no creativity, nothing to separate. It's just grind and fight over grind. There's no creative way to avoid fighting and succeed anyway.
We will not be joining this game either. I am not even going to bother trying to persuade people currently. We would come for a decent game based on territorial control. Currently pathfinder is not that game. Maybe it will be that way in the future however when stress tests consisting of 42 people are hailed as a major step forward I doubt it.
I know others were interested for other reasons and that is fine and maybe they will find what they are looking for. I do wonder however what market segment they are aiming at. It certainly isn't people like me interested in the territorial control side, nor do I believe it is the wow style player. Not sure what that leaves frankly
There are many here however that believe Dancey knows what he is doing and I hope they are right. I would like to see the game succeed even if it is not a game for me purely due to the fact I have made a few contacts in the community that I would like to see get a game they are happy with.
Bluddwolf's posts about LiF's advancement system.
Um, so basically you mean to say that LiF's system is exactly like PFO's system, except not. I mean, even 're'spec'ing' in LiF is no different from PFO: all it costs is time. The difference I see is that PFO's feat system does not require you to give up your old skillset just so you can take a new one- so nothing is really lost.
Also, while incomplete, PFO's feat system does not require your character to be an expert miner in order to smelt, or an expert smelter in order to craft armor. In other words, it allows for specialization, as is the custom in these sorts of systems (unless you can point to me where it says highly skilled Armorsmiths started out as common miners).
Even the ability score system is exactly the same. The only difference is that in LiF you have the illusion of having control over your ability scores with those little up and down arrows. In fact, you are just doing the same thing you would do in PFO: I want to be strong so I do (train) X,Y,Z. Although actually, in PFO, it is more accurate to say, "I do X,Y,Z and therefore I am stronger." PFO's feat system is a bit complicated and not efficient yet; but you can take a character to Level 20 in a role without much, if any, wasted experience.
I don't think there is anything wrong with LiF's system; but if your post meant to favor LiF's system over PFO's, I think you missed the mark. I mean, one is a Braeburn Apple and the other is a Fuji Apple, but they are still both tasty apples.
....
@ Andius about crafting stuff: I agree that the current crafting system seems simple, especially compared to the ones you so well described. The insane part of me wants the more complicated system because it loves messing with complicated things; the less insane part of me recognizes what I have learned in economics: the best models capture tremendous complexity and depth of "play" with the simplest of tools. I suspect, but will be looking to see as EE plays out, that the current PFO system will be complex enough to create a highly engaging game without having to have 1,000 options for a longsword. But we shall see!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not like say Wurm where it is both profitable and enjoyable to log on and do nothing but blacksmithing all day or Mortal where you can experiment with your recipes to get exactally the properties you want.
Having played long enough in Wurm to get a skill 90+ miner and 75+ blacksmith... it was fun the first time around, but I hope to never have to do it again.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Steelwing,
I understand where you are coming from, and I urge you to come back in 3-6 months and see where the game is at that point. I don't think the game is going to be a failure, but not sure about its short term success at this point, although I feel the foundation is getting more solid.
I feel like this is what they wanted all along:
1) Have a game where its roots are economic based, but lacking in other areas. A lot of PvEers, Grinders, and Crafters will join and help establish the economy.
2) Bring in a light version of territorial control to begin bringing in some of the PvPers.
3) Make systems more complex, while keeping the above people. So up grades like gushers, escalation AI, full looting, and what not debut.
4) With all of the above established begin working on a small in game store offering in the background. Push the game towards PoIs, and Caravans, two major selling points and .
5) Debut an in-game store with small holdings, base camps, "goblin balls," and a ton of aesthetically pleasing items.
At this point, we have enough content to keep a good portion of people on board, for now, and people recommending that their friends try it out. We will be neck deep in WoT, and probably have enough content across the board to make the game a bit interesting ourselves.
The big ticket items I think a lot of people are waiting on, not what they already have on their plates (looting, gushers), but the bigger stuff: PoIs, Caravans, Settlement Planning, Laws, and Formations, I believe these will all be focused on after the 4-6 month mark.
I think we will have slow server progression, but I think that is very healthy for PFO, even at a slower pace than they originally wanted. I think we are going to start off with a couple hundred people day 1, and move towards maybe 2k people by Month 2, and as some of those people who check in every month or two come, they will be added to the game. Between various waves of new people and attrition, I think we will see 4k people total by the 6 month mark. Although, after Caravans and PoIs, I feel like we will have a dramatic spike in activity and sharp increase into population growth rate. IF they can get PoIs, Settlement building, Caravans, and Formations in I think we can get to 10k people.
Sorry for this long weird rant, I literally just woke up, so was sort of typing this in stream of consciousness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll take a stab at it.
PRO: "Guys, check this out--it's a Pathfinder MMO!"
CON: "OK, it's not really Pathfinder; more like Pathfinder-ish."
My response to the side topic of P2W: In a sandbox environment meant to evoke the feel (if not the mechanics) of the TT RPG for which it is named, then entire concept of "winning" should be alien and inapplicable. Each of you who has tried explaining any roleplaying game to the uninitiated has almost certainly had to answer the question "but how do you win?" and you know the answer is "you don't". An RPG should be about change, progression, world-building and participatory storytelling. Not winning. If PFO can achieve this, there will be no point arguing about P2W, as it will be irrelevant to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Andius about crafting stuff: I agree that the current crafting system seems simple, especially compared to the ones you so well described. The insane part of me wants the more complicated system because it loves messing with complicated things; the less insane part of me recognizes what I have learned in economics: the best models capture tremendous complexity and depth of "play" with the simplest of tools. I suspect, but will be looking to see as EE plays out, that...
My problem with PFO's crafting system is it simply is not viable or fun to be a pure crafter on anything other than an alt. As is true for 99% of the MMOs out there.
You have to be a crafter + harvester, crafter + marketer, crafter + adventurer etc.
If you are talking about the crafting system purely in terms of crafting items it is a simple matter of acquiring the needed items for the recipe you want and then clicking a couple buttons. It's hardly worthy of the term "crafting system" at all.
By comparison in Wurm I would log on for an average day tend my fields and then head to my forge. My fellow villagers would have various things "I need my saw improved to as high of quality as you can get it." "I need a trowel made and imped to a decent quality." "I need a sword."
I would pull out some iron ore mined by someone else, throw it in the forge to melt, light the forge with the tools that needed to be worked on in the other forge, and once they were glowing hot get to work.
I did not have to gather my own ore. I did not have to market my wares. My crafting trades of blacksmithing and weaponsmithing were valuable trades on their own that didn't need any other skills to supplement them either in terms of profit or as time fillers.
That's never the kind of system I expected from PFO. But I never expected them to release such a crappy combat/PvP/Reputation system which was supposed to be the flagship feature of this game and then try to distract us with "Look over here at the crafting system! EE belongs to the builders." No it doesn't. EE belongs to the people who for various reasons are in denial about the quality of this product.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe it will be that way in the future however when stress tests consisting of 42 people are hailed as a major step forward I doubt it.
LOL!!!! While Great Legionnaires was at it's height our Freelancer server would hit its cap of 50 players for a few hours every day, and there are players here who say Freelancer wasn't an MMO. Heh. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Life is Feudal servers with about that many players on right now. Single servers. A STRESS test of 42 players?
Wow. Just wow.
This is supposed to be a one massive server game. If 42 players is all it can muster for a stress test it sounds more like one massive failure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Andius, we get it. You're bitter. The game isn't what you wanted. The group you started didn't want to do what you wanted them to do. You don't like Ryan....
My wife spent the last 8 days in a miserable hospital bed because of an adverse reaction to cancer drugs. People are dying around the world, every day, from disease, war, famine, torture, greed, accidents, old age. Most of us manage not to spend our spare time going out of our way to spoil things for others around something that we aren't even involved in any longer.
You should consider finding something that makes you feel good without tearing other people down. I think you'd find yourself happier in the long run.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I spent hours hanging out with friends helping gather mats to gear ourselves on ArcheAge earlier today and now I'm browsing various forums on my phone while Amora uses my computer to play.
I can build my friends up and tear my foes down as well thank you much. And I enjoy them both immensely. ^.^
Anyway I find PFO an interesting study. It's another small sandbox that didn't pan out but carries many lessons that could be applied toward the eventual rise of a fantasy sandbox MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's not so much that you're bitter as that you're taking a PvP attitude toward the thread. Win or lose.
I'm saying this as someone passing through, who doesn't have an opinion on the game yet: If you're willing to immediately believe something absurd like "they're proud of 42 people in a stress test" at face value, you're too invested in tearing down the opposition. Deep breath. Step away from the keyboard.
The 42-person stress test thing looks to have come from a forum-organized event the devs didn't participate in (and was just in the forums - no email, blog post, etc.). Forty-two was the number they had in a hex at once, and was a disappointment, but at least there wasn't any lag. That was it. No bragging.
https://goblinworks.com/blog/early-enrollment-hold/
The link above is to a post at the end of October saying that the goal for EE was 100 people in a hex and 2k connections total, since that's what they'd expect from a 10k-person EE. Not a brag there either - just a modest baseline.
There's enough to criticize without inventing stuff.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I expect they'd have hit their goal of 100 players in a hex more easily if they hadn't expanded the map to twice again the intended size as quickly as they did.
If you're willing to immediately believe something absurd like "they're proud of 42 people in a stress test" at face value, you're too invested in tearing down the opposition.
A friend on Facebook just shared an article about this earlier today.
Beware Isolated Demands For Rigor
Then again, that's really an article intended for introspective people who are genuinely interested in improving their rationality...
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Maybe it will be that way in the future however when stress tests consisting of 42 people are hailed as a major step forward I doubt it.LOL!!!! While Great Legionnaires was at it's height our Freelancer server would hit its cap of 50 players for a few hours every day, and there are players here who say Freelancer wasn't an MMO. Heh. I wouldn't be surprised if there are Life is Feudal servers with about that many players on right now. Single servers. A STRESS test of 42 players?
Wow. Just wow.
This is supposed to be a one massive server game. If 42 players is all it can muster for a stress test it sounds more like one massive failure.
How did those 50-player dogfights go?
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I can build my friends up and tear my foes down as well thank you much. And I enjoy them both immensely. ^.^
Ok, so you are an a$~#%+$ troll who likes to hang out with other a+!+@~$ trolls. Or rather, I am guessing you are an a**~$%! troll who hangs out with "friends" that do what you tell them to and don't question you or disagree with you. If they didn't bow down to you and your "wisdom and intelligence" they'd be "weak and foolish" and you wouldn't bother with them (or, rather, you would bully them and extract glee from their suffering). Oh, because hey, that's what all of us do: stand up to you/not agree with you and then get told we are weak, foolish, dumb, etc for not seeing your viewpoint and quitting the game making the game in your image.
You're inability to concede defeat- even a partial one- is shear weakness on your part. You act big; but we all know the plain and simple truth. You are small inside and can't stand the harsh realities of the world- those realities being that you are a nobody in the world who is not all that wise and not the know-it-all master-of-all-MMOs that you say you are. Without your self-illusion, inside yourself, you would be nothing. For that is all Ego is. Nothing with a whole lot of nothing surrounding it to try to make it look like something- to try to fill a void left by a s%&+ty childhood.
You'll never change, though. You're too emotionally unintelligent and unaware to ever question your own self-illusion and seek the help that you need. Pity. You are actually a very intelligent person; but that intelligence will forever be limited by an emotionally and socially immature child inside an adult's body.