Any poison users out there?

[N N 959]

I am curious about people who regularly use poison with their characters in PFS. I'd be interested in details about:

1. How often do you use it?

2. What class and feats did you go with to aid poison use?

3. Was there a point/level in the build when it became viable?

4. How much do you spend on poison per scenario, on average?

Thanks.

[Starglim]

1. Not every scenario, so far, but I might get more use of it now that she has swift poisoning and bought several poisoning sheaths.

2. Ninja/alchemist, concentrated poison

3. It has occasionally taken effect. I think it's too early to say it's truly viable.

4. Marigold uses giant wasp poison as standard and makes her own, so 70-140gp per scenario. She also managed to loot and use some black smear in a scenario containing dark folk.

[N N 959]

Star, what level is your PC?

[Starglim]

Currently ninja 3/alchemist 4.

[GM Lamplighter]

Dotting. I'm dabbling with the concept, but it seems to be too expensive to really make work without really specializing in it with items and feats. I don't like being a one-trick-pony, so I'm not sure if I can do it yet without giving up all the other stuff I want my PCs to do.

[N N 959]

Yeah, I'm trying to figure out how useful it's going to be. I haven't seen a single player use poison yet, so I am wondering if anyone has made it viable.

[Acedio]

I've only seen one PC that used poison extensively, and it was because they received a boon that allowed them to use purple worm poison. It was rather potent. Other than that, I (personally) have not seen it used.

[Jiggy]

The issue with poisons is that they're primarily an attrition mechanic, and attrition only works against PCs, not against NPCs.

The main thing that poisons tend to do is inflict ability damage, which primarily translates to a small penalty to one significant statistic (such as attack rolls or armor class) and maybe a couple of minor secondary things (like Reflex saves).

Now, getting a -X to attacks or AC might seem like a good deal at first. Problem is poison is spread out over multiple rounds. For example, giant wasp poison gives you 1d2 DEX damage per failed save. So while Evil Eye will bestow -2 AC instantaneously, you need to accumulate 4 DEX damage to get the same effect, which requires a MINIMUM of two failed saves, but on average requires three.

Let that sink in: to achieve a -2 to AC with poison, you're looking at needing them to fail three saves in a row over the course of two and a half rounds. How is that helpful? Even if you're phenomenally lucky and they fail enough saves to even TAKE that much stat damage, are they even still up long enough for it to take effect? How many rounds does an individual enemy usually last?

This is where "It's an attrition mechanic" comes in. A poison is only reaching its full effect toward the end of the encounter. For PCs, this means that future encounters will be incrementally harder, unless you spend resources (spell slots or consumables). But for NPCs, nothing after that one encounter matters. For a debuff to be relevant, it needs to be taking effect near the beginning of the encounter.

Compare this to the witch's Evil Eye hex (take -2 to her choice of AC, attacks, or saves, unless even if you make a Will save), or to cause fear (shaken, granting a -2 to nearly every d20 roll if you fail pass your save against a 1st-level spell), or to frostbite (fatigued, granting an effective -1 to attacks, damage, and AC, with no save). Would anyone use these if instead they required failed saves round after round before the debuff came into full effect? I seriously doubt it.

If PCs using poisons is ever going to be a thing, there need to be (accessible) poisons which can meaningfully affect an encounter. If it's going to be a debuff, it needs to reach a noticeable level (such as -2) after ONE failed save, not three in a row.

What if there was a poison that, instead of dealing stat damage, immediately make you fatigued or shaken when you failed your first save, and it lasted 1d4 rounds? Or a poison that left you dazed for 1 round if you failed that first save (and had no additional effects)? These would be no stronger than a spellcaster packing scrolls of cause fear at 25gp a pop for a guaranteed four points of ability damage to all six stats shaken condition for a round.

Surely that which can be achieved from across the room with no chance of failure at 25gp a pop wouldn't be overpowered to allow to also be used as a Fort-negates melee rider, right?

If there's interest in poison-using characters, I suggest writing some new, relevant poisons and putting them into the Guide as being always available.

[N N 959]

Jiggy wrote:

The issue with poisons is that they're primarily an attrition mechanic, and attrition only works against PCs, not against NPCs.

While that is only part of the problem, it's a huge part. It really feels punitive on the part of the game designers: we'll make the majority of poisons viable against PC's, but kind of pointless against NPCs.

Let's add to the problems you've identified:

1. DC's are fixed. They don't increase with level.

2. Poison Type. About 1/3 of the poison listed in the CRB require that they be either "ingested" or "inhaled." Since PFS outlawed poison conversion one is reduced to spending to using a one-use diffuser at 200gp a pop, and that ignores the poison.

I think what's really unfortunate is that "ingested" poisons are not viable in the PFS framework.

3. The cost of poisons. This is the single most prohibitive aspect. Even if you craft the poison, the cheapest available injury poison at 30gp a dose after crafting, is centipede with a DC of 11 and it only causes 1 Dex per round. Compare that with the cost of gunslinger bullets and the bang for your buck (pun intended).

4. Fairness.I think one of the most frustrating things about poisons is that this is a Paizo issue, but the format of PFS exacerbates the problem. I've never been in a scenario where it made sense to poison an NPC's food or drink. So 1/3 of the poisons are taken off the table right from the start.

Jiggy wrote:

If there's interest in poison-using characters, I suggest writing some new, relevant poisons and putting them into the Guide as being always available.

I'd rather see Paizo address the problem on a more fundamental level. Provide more options for improving Poison DC's and number of uses. Why not make Sticky Poison a feet instead of an Alchemist Talent that only alchemists can access. Provide more way to increase the DC. Bring back poison conversion.

But as far as PFS is concerned, yes, I'd like to see access to more poison boons.

As someone who is trying to make an Investigator that actually benefits from Poison Lore without having to dedicate the entire build to poison use, I feel like I'm running uphill in a hurricane.

[DrSwordopolis]

One "easy fix" that could help a great deal would be to make the Virulent weapon property (from the Monster Codex) legal for all Pathfinder PCs, rather than just Ratfolk. I've been tempted to make a poison-based alchemist in PFS for a while, but I'm waiting on a ratfolk boon or access to virulent since there's no real other way to make poison "work" effectively. Even with it, it's not the most effective strategy out there, but at least then your DCs can scale somewhat as you level. Opening up more poisons in additional resources would help as well. Puppydog Eyes at Messrs Brock and Compton.

Virulent wrote:

A virulent weapon magically intensifies any poison it delivers.

The saving throw DC of any poison applied to either a virulent
weapon or any ammunition fired from it increases by a number
equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus. The duration
of the poison increases by a number of rounds equal to the
virulent weapon’s enhancement bonus.

I'm currently running a home group through a modified version of Jade Regent, with the players as a helpful ninja clan, rather than Sandpoint natives. I've made a few houserules to help them - poison costs are reduced by 80%, delay poison only works on poisons that are in the system when the spell is cast - but overall they've found that the poison strategy actually works assuming everyone is willing to cooperate. A recent tough fight for them was resolved simply by getting four or five stacked doses of purple worm poison into the big bad, then hiding while the poison did its dirty work. Had they not been able to use hit-and-run tactics, and stack several doses of poison on the (very powerful melee) opponent, they would likely have TPKed.

In PFS, the main issue, aside from base efficacy, is that most players aren't going to be interested in waiting for the evil wizard to fall over from strength damage poison, meaning you've effectively "wasted" the poison.

[Jiggy]

@NN959 - I suppose I should clarify that I was only talking in the scope of injury poisons: the ones you would typically use during combat. Hence why I was discussing everything in the context of combat rounds and such.

In that regard, increasing poison DCs is important, but alone it doesn't help the core issue: even if giant wasp venom had a DC of 99, it's still not meaningfully impacting combat until 2-3 rounds after he's already gotten stabbed once.

[N N 959]

Jiggy wrote:

@NN959 - I suppose I should clarify that I was only talking in the scope of injury poisons: the ones you would typically use during combat. Hence why I was discussing everything in the context of combat rounds and such.

In that regard, increasing poison DCs is important, but alone it doesn't help the core issue: even if giant wasp venom had a DC of 99, it's still not meaningfully impacting combat until 2-3 rounds after he's already gotten stabbed once.

I'll disagree with that to a slight degree. If an NPC is poisoned and the poison succeeds, there's a chance the NPC will try to contend with that poison if they are able. A humanoid caster might take a round to try and cure the poison.

I'll also point out that even if it takes 2-6 rounds for something to take effect, at least the players are then given tactical options to exploit that. My sword & board Ranger might not have a have problem turtling up for a few rounds to try and gain advantage. A pre-poisoned tip crossbow and True Strike could certainly deal poison on Round 2 or Round 1 if you got surprise

But with a DC of 11, a troll (a creature you might expect a protracted battle with) would have to roll a 1 to fail. Fort saves are usually the strongest saves for most creatures.

I'll also argue that aside from the amplitude of the effect is the psychological value of having any effect. What's the point of poisoning if you have such a low chance of actually succeeding? Give me Sticky Poison and Insightful Delivery based on the damage from my dice and not the number of dice and it's a brave new world.

[N N 959]

One of the problems with changing the attrition mechanics is that I think it hurts PCs even more. Scenario NPC's don't have to pay for the poison. While I realize that poison use should raise the CR, it's not like the author only has 100gp to spend on the NPCs and he can't afford that Oil of Taggert.

So if you make poisons work more quickly or substantially, the majority of PCs aren't going to see any benefit from them, but any PC might suffer from the improved efficacy.

As a result, I'd rather Paizo make Poison use for PCs more viable and PFS open more options to the players.

[Jiggy]

N N 959 wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

@NN959 - I suppose I should clarify that I was only talking in the scope of injury poisons: the ones you would typically use during combat. Hence why I was discussing everything in the context of combat rounds and such.

In that regard, increasing poison DCs is important, but alone it doesn't help the core issue: even if giant wasp venom had a DC of 99, it's still not meaningfully impacting combat until 2-3 rounds after he's already gotten stabbed once.

I'll disagree with that to a slight degree. If an NPC is poisoned and the poison succeeds, there's a chance the NPC will try to contend with that poison if they are able. A humanoid caster might take a round to try and cure the poison.

Only if the NPC is stupid. Do you ever see PCs spend a round trying to cure a poison that's dealing 1d2 DEX per round? That's what I thought.

So no, there's no trading actions by using poison. At least, not with the poisons currently available.

As for "better poisons would hurt PCs more than NPCs", that wouldn't be the case with the types of poison effects I'm talking about. NPCs can already use cause fear and such, so letting the exact same effect be delivered by a poison instead of a spell doesn't make things harder for the PCs than it already is.

[trollbill]

Bare in mind that, in comparison to things like Evil Eye & Cause Fear, poison can be delivered as part of a regular attack, meaning you are dealing damage AND debuffing at the same time. So something like Touch of Fatigue + Spellstrike might be a better comparison. Of course, that doesn't counter the relatively high consumable cost, static save DC against most monster's highest save, need to apply it before the attack, delayed effect, etc. But it is one of the mitigating factors that needs to be taken into account when determining cost effectiveness.

[Jiggy]

trollbill wrote:

Bare in mind that, in comparison to things like Evil Eye & Cause Fear, poison can be delivered as part of a regular attack, meaning you are dealing damage AND debuffing at the same time. So something like Touch of Fatigue + Spellstrike might be a better comparison. Of course, that doesn't counter the relatively high consumable cost, static save DC against most monster's highest save, need to apply it before the attack, delayed effect, etc. But it is one of the mitigating factors that needs to be taken into account when determining cost effectiveness.

I submit that that point is beyond trivial compared to the other points of comparison:

• No save (or still works on a save) for magic, versus total negation on an easy save for poisons
• Immediately effective for magic, versus a build-up that's longer than the target's lifespan for poisons
• One-and-done for magic, versus a chance every single round to interrupt the poison
• Multilayered debuffs (equivalent of 4 stat damage on every stat for cause fear, a round or two worth of effective stat damage on two different stats plus other limitations for fatigue from frostbite) for magic, versus one stat at a time for poisons
• Easy to hit (no attack for Evil Eye/cause fear, touch attack for frostbite) for magic, versus must hit full AC for poisons
• Good range (25+5/2lvl for cause fear, 30ft for Evil Eye) for magic, versus all the risks and limitations of melee (unless you feel like throwing away money with each miss by going archery) for poisons
• 25gp a pop for scrolls of cause fear/frostbite, versus 210gp for giant wasp poison <--This means that for the cost of a single-stat poison, you can pop scrolls of cause fear for four freaking rounds (or two, if you can craft it yourself) of auto-succeed debuff against every single d20 roll.

But yeah, we should totally remember not to go too crazy lest that rider-on-an-attack element get things out of hand.
/sarcasm

[Deighton Thrane]

I have to go with Jiggy on this. I've always felt that the only poisons worth using were the poisons with condition effects like unconsciousness or confusion. Everything else looks like it could better be performed with a spell. And it might just be me, but even with the price reduction for crafting, I still can't bring myself to spend hundreds, to thousands of GP on a one shot consumable that might maybe work if the enemy doesn't make it's save, which it probably will. I'd rather use that money on consumables that I know will help me like wands of cure light and potions of fly.

Heck, I played a 8 level home campaign as a rogue/alchemist who was a member of an assassin's guild. Not once did I even consider making a poison. If I could have cause shaken or blind, even for one round, I probably would have considered it.

[trollbill]

My apologies. I was under the impression this was a genuine discussion on how to improve poison's usefulness while still maintaining game balance. But since that would require an objective look at both sides of the equation, I must have been mistaken.

[N N 959]

Jiggy wrote:

Only if the NPC is stupid. Do you ever see PCs spend a round trying to cure a poison that's dealing 1d2 DEX per round? That's what I thought.

No, Jiggy it has nothing to do with stupidity but what a PC/NPC can do. If someone is poisoned and they have antitoxin and a lousy Fort save, they are going to drink the antitixon to stop the poison. An NPC wizard should be no different. But scenarios often require NPC's fight to the death and the GMs confuse fighting to the death with fighting as if they are already dead.

If one party member is poisoned and someone has Delay Poison or Neutralize poison memorized, they usually aren't going to wait until the end of the combat to cast it. The PC's and the NPCs should not know what type of poison they are hit with or how long it will lasts. If I'm hit with a poison and there is immediate effect, I'm not going ot wait until the end of the onset to contend with it if I have the means of dealing with it immediately.

Further, Cenitpede poison is just one of some 30+ poisons out there. Cherry picking the 1d2 Dex damage as a refutation of the idea a successful poison means nothing is not compelling and weakens your position. I have 100% seen people contend with poisons as soon as they are poisoned. Are you claiming you haven't?

Quote:

NPCs can already use cause fear and such, so letting the exact same effect be delivered by a poison instead of a spell doesn't make things harder for the PCs than it already is.

Incorrect. Many PCs have weak Fort saves. Far fewer monsters have weak Fort saves. So Cause Fear in poison form has a far greater impact on the PC population than the monster population.

Increasing poison effectiveness is not a win for the PC's. Increasing the ability of PCs to deliver poisons effectively, is. Two different problems.

[N N 959]

trollbill wrote:

My apologies. I was under the impression this was a genuine discussion on how to improve poison's usefulness while still maintaining game balance. But since that would require an objective look at both sides of the equation, I must have been mistaken.

No, you aren't mistaken. I am of the same mind. Better poisons are not the answer. Better poisoners are.

Unfortunately, it's far easier for the devs to create new poisons than it is to add feats. And there is virtually no chance that the devs are going to go back and make any particular class specifically better at poisoning, which is what I'm really advocating.

[N N 959]

Deighton Thrane wrote:

I have to go with Jiggy on this. I've always felt that the only poisons worth using were the poisons with condition effects like unconsciousness or confusion.

Obviously an effect which knocks someone out is far more effective than one that simply does ability damage. This isn't unique to poisons.

Quote:

And it might just be me, but even with the price reduction for crafting, I still can't bring myself to spend hundreds, to thousands of GP on a one shot consumable that might maybe work if the enemy doesn't make it's save, which it probably will.

I feel the same way. What's the point of spending 30gp on a poison that has a DC of 11 on a Fort save?

Now ask yourself, if there was no save versus a 1d2 Dex poison, would you be more inclined to use it at 30gp a pop? I'm guessing a lot more people would be inclined at the mid and higher levels. We can't expect a no-save poison, but if a PC could increase the Save DC or the amplitude of the effect, I think that might make poisons more attractive than they currently are.

Quote:

Heck, I played a 8 level home campaign as a rogue/alchemist who was a member of an assassin's guild. Not once did I even consider making a poison. If I could have cause shaken or blind, even for one round, I probably would have considered it.

My 2nd level Investigators have crafted poisons. I just haven't had an opportunity to use them. At low levels, nothing seems to last more than 2-4 rounds.

[Dragnmoon]

Here are some legal poisons that do other then just stat damage

Spoiler:

Bloodroot
Type injury; Save Fortitude DC 12; Onset 1 round; Frequency 1/round for 4 rounds; Effect 1 Con damage and 1 Wis damage and confusion 1 round; Cure 1 Save; Price 100 gp

Black Spider Marsh Poison
Type injury; Save Fortitude DC 14; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; Effect 1d4 Dex damage and confused for 1 round; Cure 2 consecutive Saves; Price 800 gp

Fiddleback Venom
Type poison, injury, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 13; Onset 1 minute; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes; Initial Effect nauseated 1d4 rounds; Secondary Effect 1d3 Str damage and 1d4 Con damage; Cure 2 Saves; Price 500 gp

Hag Spit
Type poison, injury, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 16; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; Initial Effect blindness for 1d10 rounds; Secondary Effect 1d4 Wis damage; Cure 2 Saves; Price 1,500 gp

Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin
Type poison, contact, injury; Save Fortitude DC 14; Frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; Initial Effect staggered for 1d6 rounds; Secondary Effect paralyzed for 1d6 minutes; Cure 1 Save; Price 400 gp

Alchemical Isolation
Type poison, inhaled; Save Fortitude DC 13; Frequency 1/minute for 2 minutes; Initial Effect deafened for 10 minutes; Secondary Effect; blinded for 10 minutes; Cure 1 save

Count Ambras’s Punishment
Type poison, contact; Save Fortitude DC 16; Onset 1 minute; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes; Initial Effect 1 Dex drain and nauseated for 1 minute; Secondary Effect 1d2 Dex drain and sickened for 1 minute; Cure 1 save

Liquid Persuasion
Type poison, ingested; Save Fortitude DC 11; Onset 10 minutes; Frequency 1/minute for 5 minutes; Effect 1 Wis damage, and for the duration of the poison, the next time the victim’s attitude toward another creature would shift one or more steps toward helpful as a result of a successful Diplomacy or Intimidate check or other effect, the victim’s attitude also shifts one additional step. For example, if the victim’s attitude would shift from indifferent to friendly (one step better), it shifts to helpful instead (two steps better); Cure 1 save

Vampire’s Kiss
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 15; Frequency 1/round for 2 rounds; Initial Effect 1d2 Con damage; Secondary Effect bleed damage from non-poison sources increases by 1 for 1 minute; Cure 1 save

Flaming Doom
Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 18; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; Effect 1d6 fire damage and victim possibly catches on fire (see Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook 444); Cure 2 saves

Smell of Fear
Type poison, inhaled; Save Fortitude DC 17; Frequency 1/minute for 6 minutes; Effect 1d2 Wis damage, and if the victim would become shaken during the next 1 minute, she becomes frightened instead; Cure 2 saves

Confabulation Powder
Type poison, inhaled; Save Fortitude DC 18; Frequency 1/minute for 2 minutes; Initial Effect staggered for 1 minute; Secondary Effect If already staggered, stunned, or unconscious, the victim becomes highly suggestible. If an event (whether true or false) is described to him, he unconsciously fabricates a detailed memory of the event, filling in any gaps in the description with his own best guesses. The confabulated memory can be disbelieved with a successful DC 18 Will save the first time it is recalled, but if the save fails, the victim treats it as completely genuine thereafter. All confabulated memories can be removed with a restoration or heal spell; Cure 1 save

Cytillesh Extract
Type poison—ingested; Save Fortitude DC 18; Frequency 1/hour for 8 hours; Effect victim loses all memory of events that took place in the previous hour and cannot form new memories as long as he remains poisoned—after he recovers, the time spent poisoned (plus the hour before his poisoning) is simply missing from memory (these missing memories might return later as dreams, and can be returned with a restoration or heal spell); Cure 2 saves; Cost 800 gp

Frostspore
Type poison—ingested or injury; Save Fortitude DC 13; Frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; Effect 1d6 cold damage plus staggered for 1 round; Cure 2 saves; Cost 100 gp.

[Jiggy]

trollbill wrote:

My apologies. I was under the impression this was a genuine discussion on how to improve poison's usefulness while still maintaining game balance. But since that would require an objective look at both sides of the equation, I must have been mistaken.

I'm trying to think of something that would be a more "objective look" than a bullet-point list of facts, but I'm coming up blank.

[Jiggy]

N N 959 wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Only if the NPC is stupid. Do you ever see PCs spend a round trying to cure a poison that's dealing 1d2 DEX per round? That's what I thought.

No, Jiggy it has nothing to do with stupidity but what a PC/NPC can do. If someone is poisoned and they have antitoxin and a lousy Fort save, they are going to drink the antitixon to stop the poison.

Seriously? Folks in your area would actually do that? Personally, if I flubbed my initial save and found myself taking 1 or 2 points of STR or DEX damage, I wouldn't spend a combat action trying to stop it. That's like stopping to heal when you get down to 75% HP or something. (If I noticed a more severe effect, like taking 4+ stat damage on a single failed save, or gaining a "real" condition, that would be different.)

Maybe you and I just play way differently. I'm not going to spend an action to (possibly; not guaranteed) prevent a penalty to my attacks from going from 1 to 2. I've never seen anyone else do that either, in the same way I've never seen someone who gets hit with a debuff spell whip out the dispel magic.

But maybe that's common where you play? I guess I can't really assume there, my bad.

Quote:

Further, Cenitpede poison is just one of some 30+ poisons out there. Cherry picking the 1d2 Dex damage as a refutation of the idea a successful poison means nothing is not compelling and weakens your position.

"Cherry picking"? You're aware that there are only 5 poisons that you don't need to find on a chronicle sheet, right? Saying that I'm cherry-picking from among the "30+ poisons out there" is pretty misleading.

Here's the list of poisons that are actually accessible for a PC who wants to use poison on a regular basis:
Giant wasp poison — 1d2 DEX damage
Large scorpion venom — 1d2 STR damage
Medium spider venom — 1d2 STR damage
Shadow essence — 1 STR drain on the first failed save, then 1d2 STR damage thereafter
Small centipede poison — 1 DEX damage

See the theme there? I didn't just pull my example of 1d2 STR/DEX out of my ass; unless you're farming specific chronicle sheets (which last I heard was frowned upon), that's as good as it gets.

Maybe you just didn't realize PCs don't have open access to all the CRB poisons?

Quote:

I have 100% seen people contend with poisons as soon as they are poisoned. Are you claiming you haven't?

Discussed this above. I'm absolutely claiming I haven't seen people deal with poisons during combat.

Quote:

Quote:

NPCs can already use cause fear and such, so letting the exact same effect be delivered by a poison instead of a spell doesn't make things harder for the PCs than it already is.

Incorrect. Many PCs have weak Fort saves. Far fewer monsters have weak Fort saves. So Cause Fear in poison form has a far greater impact on the PC population than the monster population.

Most of the PCs with weak Fort saves aren't in the front lines where poisoning happens. Still, I see your point there. Class features to boost your poison DCs would certainly help the situation, if PCs had access to poisons with relevant effects in the first place.

Quote:

Increasing poison effectiveness is not a win for the PC's. Increasing the ability of PCs to deliver poisons effectively, is. Two different problems.

Or maybe two halves of the same problem.

As you can see above, an effect which, even on a failed save, has a 50/50 shot of having no effect whatsoever on the first round, and even after than is only going to stack up to a minor condition after a few rounds, is not a contribution to combat even if the save DC is really high.
On the other hand, you make a good point about monsters tending to have high Fort saves; being able to use build options to push past that would be helpful.

I suppose we really need both.

[Jiggy]

Dragnmoon wrote:

Here are some legal poisons that do other then just stat damage

** spoiler omitted **...

I had no idea there were so many poisons out there in Additional Resources. What books are those in? There's a couple nice ones in there!

[trollbill]

Jiggy wrote:

trollbill wrote:

My apologies. I was under the impression this was a genuine discussion on how to improve poison's usefulness while still maintaining game balance. But since that would require an objective look at both sides of the equation, I must have been mistaken.

I'm trying to think of something that would be a more "objective look" than a bullet-point list of facts, but I'm coming up blank.

Well, leaving off the sarcasm might be a good start to appearing more objective. Sarcasm is a subjective response.

I brought up that point not to say that it balanced the equation. Far from it. But the discussion up to that point had been looking at all the disadvantages of poison while ignoring the advantages other than it was a debuffer, i.e. non-objectively. The fact that something may only add $1 to the value of an item may not compare to the $50 discrepancy between price and value, but that doesn't mean it doesn't add $1 to the value of that item.

[Dragnmoon]

Jiggy wrote:

Here's the list of poisons that are actually accessible for a PC who wants to use poison on a regular basis:

Giant wasp poison — 1d2 DEX damage
Large scorpion venom — 1d2 STR damage
Medium spider venom — 1d2 STR damage
Shadow essence — 1 STR drain on the first failed save, then 1d2 STR damage thereafter
Small centipede poison — 1 DEX damage

Huh? What?

The list is Much larger then that

Here is the list of Legal Poison with those with Poison Use:

Always Available Core Rulebook pgs. 559 - 560

Giant Wasp Poison
Large Scorpion Venom
Medium Spider Venom
Shadow Essence
Small Centipede Poison

Additional Resources – Ultimate Equipment

Black Adder Venom
Bloodroot
Giant Wasp Poison
Greenblood Oil
Large Scorpion Venom
Malyass Root Paste
Medium Spider Venom
Nitharit
Shadow Essence
Small Centipede Poison
Terinav Root

Additional Resources – Advanced Race Guide

Black Spider Marsh Poison

Additional Resources – Monster Codex

Venomsweat Salve

Additional Resources –Cities of Golarion

Heathensnuff

Additional Resources - Rival Guide Pg 53

Cockatrice Spit
Fiddleback Venom
Hag Spit
Rainbow Jellyfish Toxin

Additional Resources – Alchemy Manual

Alchemical Isolation
Count Ambras’s Punishment
Liquid Persuasion
Vampire’s Kiss
Flaming Doom
Smell of Fear
Confabulation Powder

Additional Resources – Shattered Star Chapter 1: Shards of Sin

Cytillesh Extract
Frostspore

[trollbill]

Someone did their Poison homework.

[Dragnmoon]

trollbill wrote:

Someone did their Poison homework.

Been thinking about a Poison Character for awhile so I made a detailed list on what is available, what book it is from and what it does.

Edit: And a list of Poison Character Abilities, but I think I am still working on that.

[trollbill]

Jiggy wrote:

Seriously? Folks in your area would actually do that? Personally, if I flubbed my initial save and found myself taking 1 or 2 points of STR or DEX damage, I wouldn't spend a combat action trying to stop it.

I've seen this plenty of times, too. Usually when there is no easy access to Lesser Restoration. Better to stop and fix the problem now rather than to wait to the end of the battle after you have taken 4d2 STR or DEX damage. This is especially true if the stat you are taking stat damage in was a dump stat.

Heck, I recall playing one mod when my 10 STR ninja was second level. I had forgotten to buy Anti-venom for him. In the first battle I got hit with STR poison. I think it only had a DC of 12, but I only had a +1 Fort save at that point. By the end of the battle I had been reduced to 0 STR. We had a Cleric with Lesser Restoration. He rolled a 1 on the die. I spent the rest of the mod with STR 1. If I had an anti-venom I would have definitely stepped back and drank it.

Quote:

That's like stopping to heal when you get down to 75% HP or something.

A more accurate comparison is stopping to heal if you are taking bleed damage. I have seen enough PCs die from bleed damage to make me want to do this on several occasions.

[Jiggy]

I did give a caveat for a more extreme circumstance, did I not? The fact is that most PCs who are up in the front facing the poison have a substantially higher Fort save than your ninja did, and typically have higher numbers in the affected stat than your ninja did, and even for your example the likelihood of failing that many consecutive saves is pretty small.

Your example is an anomaly, a corner case.

[trollbill]

Jiggy wrote:

I did give a caveat for a more extreme circumstance, did I not? The fact is that most PCs who are up in the front facing the poison have a substantially higher Fort save than your ninja did, and typically have higher numbers in the affected stat than your ninja did, and even for your example the likelihood of failing that many consecutive saves is pretty small.

Your example is an anomaly, a corner case.

You were telling N N 959 that you had not seen such a thing in your area. I was pointing out that his area was not necessarily an anomaly and that some times there is a good reason for it.

Yes, the Ninja thing was an extreme example (mostly because of the really bad luck in failing my save 6 or 7 times). But you don't have to get dropped all the way to 0 in a stat for it to cause your character serious problems. And there are plenty of front line characters (rogues, ninjas, oracles, swashbucklers,...) with poor Fort saves and either a low DEX or low STR.

[Liz Courts]

Please be civil thank you—tone is sometimes hard to discern from text, please keep that in mind when responding.

[Malag]

I have single poison user (cleric 5/rogue 2) out of my 8 characters. He tends to initiate combat by Intimidate check to demoralize (shaken debuff) to increase poison's chances. So far, he used it around 4 times in total and I believe that poison managed to stick only once for 2-4 Dex damage. It's pretty lousy and expensive tactic overall. I plan to use it more effectively several levels later when he gets Poisoner's Jacket. It's mostly for flavor reasons that I am using it really.

[N N 959]

Dragnmoon wrote:

trollbill wrote:

Someone did their Poison homework.

Been thinking about a Poison Character for awhile so I made a detailed list on what is available, what book it is from and what it does.

Edit: And a list of Poison Character Abilities, but I think I am still working on that.

Thank you for the list. I've been doing a similar thing but yours is more extensive as you seem to own more source books. I would love to see your list of Poison abilities.

[N N 959]

Malag wrote:

I have single poison user (cleric 5/rogue 2) out of my 8 characters. He tends to initiate combat by Intimidate check to demoralize (shaken debuff) to increase poison's chances. So far, he used it around 4 times in total and I believe that poison managed to stick only once for 2-4 Dex damage. It's pretty lousy and expensive tactic overall. I plan to use it more effectively several levels later when he gets Poisoner's Jacket. It's mostly for flavor reasons that I am using it really.

Thanks for the post.

Yes, it seems one option is try and prep the target. I'll have to look into what other casters can do to debuff saves before attempting poison. Unfortunately, the fights are so short, unless a caster has a Hex like ability, few are willing to waste an action on a debuff if they can do straight up damage.

[N N 959]

Jiggy wrote:

Or maybe two halves of the same problem.

As you can see above, an effect which, even on a failed save, has a 50/50 shot of having no effect whatsoever on the first round, and even after than is only going to stack up to a minor condition after a few rounds, is not a contribution to combat even if the save DC is really high.
On the other hand, you make a good point about monsters tending to have high Fort saves; being able to use build options to push past that would be helpful.
I suppose we really need both.

If the goal is to make poisons a bigger factor in the game, then I would agree with you. If the goal is to just make poisons a valid option for PC's, then I continue to subscribe to my belief that improving poisons, themselves, is not a net win for PCs. That applies to my idea for improving poison DCs as well. As a PC, I don't want a no-save poison because that means I won't get a save if I get poisoned :) To restate an earlier observation, even if we got a DC 99 1d2 Dex poison, that's going to benefit less than 1% of the PCs out there. But any PC could get poisoned.

Your initial analysis was spot on. The normal attrition mechanic for poisons is far more effective against PCs than NPCs, so anything that makes the attrition mechanic more effective has greater impact on PCs for exactly the reasons you stated about poisons in general. This is why I don't want the poisons themselves to have higher DCs. I just want a class ability that lets me raise the DC :)

While the purpose of this thread was intended to hear how/if other people are able to use poison to any benefit, I certainly don't mind talking about the use of poisons from a design perspective.

[Malag]

N N 959 wrote:

Yes, it seems one option is try and prep the target. I'll have to look into what other casters can do to debuff saves before attempting poison. Unfortunately, the fights are so short, unless a caster has a Hex like ability, few are willing to waste an action on a debuff if they can do straight up damage.

I can't agree more, but it's probably also worth noting that it depends on party composition. Several melee brutes and blaster wizard aren't good party to use poisons with. Debuffing spellcaster and several classes with medium BaB progression might be far better party to use poisons with.

What I would really love is, if paizo would make more poisons doing direct damage. A poison that does 2d6 damage for example would be pretty interesting.

[Chris Mortika]

Doing CON damage is usually just as good. A 2-point CON hit will drop a 6 HD critter's hit points by six.

[Imbicatus]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Doing CON damage is usually just as good. A 2-point CON hit will drop a 6 HD critter's hit points by six.

It's also more likely to work for multiple rounds, as the each failed fort save also lowers the victim's fort save for the subsequent rounds.

[Jiggy]

Yep, CON damage is a bit more useful. Are there any available outside a chronicle sheet? If so, what book?

[Imbicatus]

Jiggy wrote:

Yep, CON damage is a bit more useful. Are there any available outside a chronicle sheet? If so, what book?

Vampire’s Kiss, in the Alchemy Manual.

[Dragnmoon]

Jiggy wrote:

Yep, CON damage is a bit more useful. Are there any available outside a chronicle sheet? If so, what book?

Ultimate Equipment

Black Adder Venom - 1d2 Con damage
Bloodroot - 1 Con damage and 1 Wis damage and confusion 1 round
Greenblood Oil - 1 Con damage
Nitharit - 1d3 Con damage

Cities of Golarion

Heathensnuff - Secondary Effect 1 Con damage

Rival Guide Pg 53

Fiddleback Venom - Secondary Effect 1d3 Str damage and 1d4 Con damage

Alchemy Manual

Vampire’s Kiss - 1d2 Con damage

[Chris Mortika]

Fiddleback venom seems like a pretty decent injury poison, but it's very slow. Is there any way to accelerate the effects of poison?

[Imbicatus]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Fiddleback venom seems like a pretty decent injury poison, but it's very slow. Is there any way to accelerate the effects of poison?

Malignant Poison alchemist discovery would do it, but it requires alchemist 10.

[trollbill]

Has anyone who has used poisons in PFS had a problem with GMs trying to ding you for committing an evil act? I haven't used poisons enough in PFS to really encounter this but it has been a problem with poison use for ages.

[Jeff Merola]

Chris Mortika wrote:

Fiddleback venom seems like a pretty decent injury poison, but it's very slow. Is there any way to accelerate the effects of poison?

Well, there's the spell Accelerate Poison, but that'll only get the fiddleback venom to hit with the nauseated portion of its effects and leave the first secondary tick for a minute later.

[Nohwear]

It really seems like poison, at least the way it works now, can only really be useful in certain types of campaigns. As in nonPFS. Unfortunate really.

[trollbill]

Agreed. PFS has exactly 1 advantage over other campaigns when it comes to poison. If you find some during an adventure you can use it for free for the rest of the adventure without losing gold. That is about the only time my ninja has actually use poison.

[Dragnmoon]

trollbill wrote:

Has anyone who has used poisons in PFS had a problem with GMs trying to ding you for committing an evil act? I haven't used poisons enough in PFS to really encounter this but it has been a problem with poison use for ages.

If they ever did just show them this from the FAQ.

FAQ wrote:

...Paladins, per their code of conduct, may not use poisons, but they don’t necessarily view the use of poisons as an evil to be opposed—it’s simply something their code prohibits them from doing themselves.