Hey guys my friends and I just started playing and I am loving this game! We just hit lvl 3 and I am COMPLETELY stuck on which feat to choose. Here are my thoughts:
Tower Shield Prof- Seems GREAT for Holy Shield(Su) ability
Extra Lay on Hands- same reason as tower shield, more Holy Shield ability
Toughness- Meatshield is always great
I have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of people suggest the Eldritch Heritage Feat, in orcs or abyssal are pretty good. I tried looking into this but i dont get it at all. How do you do this and how does it work. It seems better than the others but I am completely lost in how to do this feat ( I know heritage is the next step). Could someone explain how this goes down, and if I take it later will I be missing out on the bloodline abilities quite a bit?
Thank you!
Tower shields are overrated unless your plan is to hide behind them and not attack. Yes they give you an impressive +4 to AC, but that's only 2 higher than a heavy shield and you have -2 to hit with every attack. Last time I checked, there's a lot more danger in a game than things just targeting your AC, so unless your to-hit is already stupid or your DM throws really low AC enemies at you, tower shields proficiency probably isn't worth it.
The synergy with Holy Shield seems pretty great, but look into the nuts and bolts of it. First of all, for an ally to benefit they have to be adjacent to you. If the ability had an effect like "All allies within 30 feet" it would be pretty good, but how often is the entire party clustered around you, and in that scenario when is more than just the front line being attacked? Also, it's a shield bonus, which means it does not stack with allies shield bonuses. That can either have no overlap or a lot depending on the build of the other party members.
So, for a sacred shield paladin it's a little better, but probably still not worth. However it could be depending on the party makeup and how your DM likes to attack you (if he likes to rain volleys of arrows or send in lots of little enemies).
Extra lay on hands is almost always a good choice. You will NEVER have too much healing, and it's a very easy to remember and use feat. NEVER a bad choice.
Toughness is never bad, on ANY character. Surviving is good. However, you can always just heal yourself as a swift action for more HP than toughness gives you.
As far as Eldritch Heritage, it can be a powerful feat is used correctly. Let's go over how it works.
First, you have to take Skill Focus for the skill of the bloodline you're going with. For example, if you want to go with the Abyssal Bloodline, you'll see that near the top is listed "Class Skill: Knowledge (planes)". In this case, you would need to take Skill Focus (Knowledge (planes))
Next you will take the Eldritch heritage feat. Say that you did go with Abyssal. Now you are granted the 1st level ability of that bloodline, in this case the claws.
For purposes of the bloodline power, you treat your sorcerer level as your character level -2.
Eldritch Heritage can be very powerful is used correctly, but requires quite a bit of reading through the sorcerer bloodlines. However, do keep in mind that taking skill focus on the following eldritch feats on a class that gains no bonus feats will mean that it will eat up quite a bit of your build.
Does that help? Anything I need to clarify?
Perfect, Thank you for explaining it so simply!
Though if I were to choose the Orc say, When do I get the bonus spells and do i just auto get all the bonus feats?
Also HOW do i channel energy through my weapon? As a paladin i get channel positive energy, is this how? Example: enchantment Grey Flame says- When weapon has positive or negative energy channeled through it, it gaines +1, and 1d6 dmg. HOW do i just channel energy? do i need to have channel positive energy or is this different?
Thank you so much!
1. Weapon Focus. You want to hit stuff.
2. Power Attack. Dead stuff hits you less.
3. All the feats down the line to Shield Master. Your ability to give Divine Bond to a shield is cool, but it's useless if you are not a threat to kill stuff. Getting Shield Master allows you to put immediate pressure on enemies as well as having tons of attack and damage. I recommend 2 levels into Slayer to pick this up through the combat style talent. That dip should give you also some extra skills and a Reflex save bonus. If you take the Magical Knack (Paladin) trait, you won't lose any caster levels so yey. I recommend taking Vanguard Slayer to trade the meh Survival bonus to tracking for an alright +1 to initiative.
4. Noble Scion feat - Scion of War. Make your CHA the base of your initiative, cannot go wrong.
5. Greater Mercy/Extra Mercy. Much better than Extra Lay on Hands. Unless your GM loves monster marathons, you are better off with having more effect rather than more attempts.
No, you do not get any of the bonus spells or bonus feats. Those are exclusive to actually being a sorcerer. The Eldritch Heritage feat and the improved and greater versions only give you bloodline powers, not spells or feats.
The Grayflame enchantment gives you the ability to channel energy through your weapon to make it more powerful. Without that enchantment (or something else) you normally cannot channel energy through a weapon. Yes, you do need to have channel positive energy to use that enchantment, which paladins normally get at level 4.
Secret Wizard brings up some other good feats (weapon focus and power attack are almost never bad with a front line strength based character). However I would only recommend Shield Master and the previous feats if you intend to be two-weapon fighting, which is VERY feat intensive for a paladin (not to mention very MAD).
As far as dipping goes, that's entirely up to what you want to do with your character.
Having CHA to init is always nice for paladins.
I have to disagree with him on mercy feats. Those are only worthwhile if your DM is a big fan of hitting the party with status effects. More lay on hands will always be used. Being able to get rid of the sickened condition or something else will only circumstantially be used.
Secret Wizard brings up some other good feats (weapon focus and power attack are almost never bad with a front line strength based character). However I would only recommend Shield Master and the previous feats if you intend to be two-weapon fighting, which is VERY feat intensive for a paladin (not to mention very MAD).
No, you misunderstand me.
If you go Shield Master, you use your shield EXCLUSIVELY. Shields, enchanted with Impact or Bashing, can be ridiculously good for damage.
Plus, you can use it in two hands to add extra damage.
I have to disagree with him on mercy feats. Those are only worthwhile if your DM is a big fan of hitting the party with status effects. More lay on hands will always be used. Being able to get rid of the sickened condition or something else will only circumstantially be used.
Perhaps its a playstyle thing that DMs play with status.
But Greater Mercy is 100% all the time better than Extra Lay on Hands in that case.
(And Ultimate Mercy is the $$$)
While Magical Knack will save your caster levels, it does nothing for the hit on class spell and class feature progression
That's... the whole point of a dip. You take a hit on class progression for a boost in power through multiclassing. Magical Knack reduces the opportunity cost of said dipping.
Getting Shield Master without having to take Two-Weapon Fighting and Shield Slam is worth it, and you also get skills, Reflex save bonus, Studied Target and, if you go Vanguard, +1 to initiative. It's not a bad dip.
Ha, I have forgotten about the all powerful Captain America approach!
I still disagree with you on mercy. If the wizard gets hit with a damaging spell that sickens him, I'd rather be able to heal him twice than heal him once and get rid of a small debuff.
Magical knack is a very powerful trait, but for a class with spell progression as slow as a Paladin it's practically wasted.
While ultimate mercy is a great feat if you have no divine caster, the only real use of it when you do have a divine caster (as any party should) is in the case that the divine caster himself dies (and in that case you should have an NPC or emergency scroll anyways). Also, a full divine caster gets access to that ability earlier than a paladin does anyways (unless you have an insane CHA score).
Ok, thank you for explaining so much! Still go questions tho!:
Ok so i need BOTH greyflame AND channel positive energy to use greyflame? So do i expend a use of channel psoitive energy to do this?
APPARENTLY i dont get ANY feats or spells from bloodlines, I only get powers...so why do ppl rave about the orc bloodline? The powers BLOW, i am immune to fear...using a full action to buff myself or someone around me instead of just smacking somthing sounds disgustingly bad, and even if the 15th and 17th were good (which they arent) going 2 feata in for 2 powers doesnt seem worth at all. Can anyone explain what i am obviously missing? :/
Which bloodline is best?? Theres a lot of them and i can only stand reading so many
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The reason the Eldritch Heritage tree is a good one for Paladins is:
1) As a Charisma-based martial character, you can easily fulfill the requirements (unlike Fighters & Barbarians that have to sacrifice more than just a feat for them).
and
2) Both of the bloodlines you listed grant a scaling bonus to strength, up to +6, that stacks with enhancement bonuses.
In addition, if you gain the ability to quicken a spell-like ability, Touch of Rage from the Orc bloodline becomes a swift-action +1/2 your level to attacks, damage, and will saves for a round, which is HUGE. Power of the Giants is amazing as well, even if it costs a standard action to activate, because the added reach means you likely get to make an attack you would've made anyways and, again, opens up possibilities for quickened spell-like abilities. Plus, it lasts for a full minute per level, which is CRAZY good on a dedicated martial character.
The abyssal bloodline only offers the scaling strength bonus, which is still nice.
The ghoul sorcerer bloodline also allows you to get a couple of claws that inflict paralysis, and free rounds of haste each day, plus a scaling Natural Armor bonus and cold resistance.
Yes, you need both grayflame AND channel energy to use grayflame. Yes, you need to expend a use of channel energy to do that.
Correct, you do not gain any feats or spells from the bloodlines. I cannot speak for the power of them, as I don't play the type of characters that use that feat tree. I'm just here to help clarify the rules.
Ha, if you want to build an optimized character than put on your reading glasses. However, for your particular inquiry I can suggest this guide. Do keep in mind that in your case you will be ignoring most of the material, only focusing on the bloodline powers.
Also, be careful about making the "best" choices. It could be possible that abyssal is the "best" choice for your build. Now you have to explain why your paladin has abyssal blood in them. Remember, roleplay>rollplay. I just finished making a Barbarian (Sea Reaver) for a Skull and Shackles campaign. Is Sea Reaver a good archetype? No, not really, but it's not awful either. And thematically it's perfect for the campaign and I built a really cool character out of it. Remember, a DM can always make combat harder or easier for his characters combat prowess, but there's no replacement for a good character story.
I will definetly keep roleplay>rollplay in mind xD.
How do i level up my bloodline? Say i wait till a later level to get it, does it start me at 1 then? Or boost me to my level for the bloodline? I guess what im asking is, if i NEED skill focus and then have to wait for my next feat AND THEN start at 1, i will never get the 17th level feat right?
No, waiting to get feats at a later level does not penalize you. I'm a little confused by your question. The Eldritch feats do what their listed benefits are and nothing more. I'm not sure what you mean by "THEN start at 1".
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Eldritch Heritage makes you count as a sorcerer of your character level-2 for the purposes of your bloodline powers. Character level scales as you, well, level, so your abilities will get more powerful as you level. Eldritch heritage gets you the 1st level sorcerer bloodline power, Improved Eldritch Heritage gets you the 3rd OR 9th level power, and Greater Eldritch Heritage gets you the 15th level power. Greater Eldritch Heritage also makes your levels count as full sorcerer levels for your bloodline powers, as opposed to the previous feats Character Level-2.
AH, i see! I was under the impression you get the eldritch feat and then you have it forever. Instead it seems you have to invest quite a bit into that tree simply to get all the powers.
@Carl, sorry my post was unclear, what I meant was, it says you get the 1st lvl bloodline power and then I assumed as you level you character you level your bloodline in order to achieve the 3rd and 9th and 17th bloodline power. In this line of thinking, since I would start above character level 3 I assumed I would never get the 17th level power bc I capped out at 20.
But reading this I guess I have to keep putting points into heritage feats is actually how i obtain the higher level powers?
Thank you for answering all my questions, this was pretty confusing. Though if the above is true then I think I understand the bloodline stuff. Though wont this mean that most of my feats go towards bloodline stuff and not other feats? I feel like theres a better use of my feat points than draining them into that line? maybe not
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It depends, there are some pretty unique benefits from eldritch heritage which cant be obtained with other feats. For example "improved eldrtich heritage(shadow)" gives you HIDE IN PLAIN SIGHT+TELEPORTATION thats just sick, no feat will give you that much(except maybe leadership), just compare it to weapon focus and see what I mean.
Of course that will depend on your personal preferences.
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If you meant Sacred Shield, I would also look into the Bodyguard feat. Building up a *massive* shield bonus is nice, but adding another AC bump is better.
Shield Focus, +5 enchant, Arrow Catching, boom, you hand out a +10 shield bonus to adjacent allies and protect against ranged attacks. Potentially moving into Missile Shield -> Ray Shield, you could avoid ranged touch attacks (which are mostly those nasty ranged touch spells that more or less ignore your AC).
Bodyguard would add another layer of AC you can hand out to your allies. It begins at +2, but feats, traits, benevolent armor and class bonuses can raise it up into the low teens. All together, you could be handing your adjacent allies bonuses to AC in the low to mid 20s. A naked wizard with no dexterity could suddenly turn into a tank... Just imagine what that does with that great axe wielding barbarian who has on armor, and has decent dex... Oof.
That is disgusting If I were you gm I would chain lighting you are your friends till you are dust and make you roll up new characters.