Help me build a MoMS / SF Pummeling Charger.

[Bigguyinblack]

I've wanted to play the build Undone's guide mentioned that granted Pummeling Charge early on via Master of Many Styles but I'm not comfortable with what I am nearly sure is just bad punctuation allowing Pummeling Style to be taken at 1st level. I'm not arguing the RAW, Just saying I don't feel comfortable using it that way.
But taking 2 levels of MoMS solves that problem since it explicitly waives requirements. Plus Evasion is pretty sweet.

Half Orc gives me double duty from my Fate's favored trait but I'm very tempted to play a Dwarf because the stats match up well and the Steel Soul feat is a lifesaver.
Dwarf would mean I won't get 18 Str at 1st level though.

I'm also still unsure on how to avoid choking on the multiple swift actions I would want to use each round. Enter a Style, Ki Strike, and Fervor are all vital. Never mind quickened summoned later on.

Thoughts?

[Undone]

It can be taken at first level. There's really no question and it's not bad punctuation. It's only got a BAB requirement for non monks/brawlers/sf. The same is true for pummeling charge. or do you only think pummeling charge requires a normal monk to have 12 BAB or rather should because the punctuation is the same.

I really don't get the sentiment against pummeling style. Everyone wants to nerf it or think it shouldn't work right because they think the RAW is OP. It's strong but it's nice to finally have a strong way to play unarmed.

I'm saying this as someone who has the character and who has played him up fairly far. The second MoMS level is actually fairly good after 9th.

I have to ask is this for PFS? If it's for PFS I would not recommend 2 MoMS. If you're going up high I would recommend 2 MoMS and trying out the dex build with snake fang.

As to swift actions Combat style master is available at level 9.

If you need to charge or it has DR go pummeling style>Dragon Style>Fervor>Ki.
If not Dragon Style(Ferocity)>Ki(Unless dead then fervor)>Fervor>Pummeling Style.

[Bigguyinblack]

I believe that the intent of the requirements are Improved Unarmed Strike and a BAB of +6 and either Flurry of Blows or Brawlers Flurry ability. I think that choosing Flurry in place of the +6 BAB for requirement is the result of poor punctuation. But that punctuation exists and it is legal per RAW. But I don't want to build my character around what I personally feel is a typo so I want to take 2 levels of MoMS and take Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge as my 2 feats. And yes this is for PFS.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Pummeling charge is not PFS legal bro.

Pummeling style is but not charge. Sorry.

[Bigguyinblack]

Pummeling Charge was banned for awhile but is legal again.

"Feats: all feats on pages 136-159 are legal for play, except Animal Soul, Divine Protection, Evolved Companion, Evolved Summon Monster, and Spirit's Gift. Pummeling Charge has been removed from the banned list and is now available for play."

[Rerednaw]

"...and there was much rejoicing."

So PC is PC again for PFS? Hurm.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

>.> well this changes many things on my end too.

I was wondering what to make for my level 2 lock in a brawler/Moms trip. aster or a arcane bloodrager with reach weapon. Looks like this tips the scale back in the brawlers direction.

As far as a monk and sacred fist combo. You will have a double -0 class. So your going to be behind on base attack bonus. Your gonna need that 18 str. Go half orc for faiths favored and sacred tattoo. Really abuse the luck bonus for both saves and divine favor.

But it would seem you wouldn't want the dip till late due to sacred fist being really good on its own.

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I believe that the intent of the requirements are Improved Unarmed Strike and a BAB of +6 and either Flurry of Blows or Brawlers Flurry ability. I think that choosing Flurry in place of the +6 BAB for requirement is the result of poor punctuation. But that punctuation exists and it is legal per RAW. But I don't want to build my character around what I personally feel is a typo so I want to take 2 levels of MoMS and take Pummeling Style and Pummeling Charge as my 2 feats. And yes this is for PFS.

Given that they've directly addressed the feat with errata if the intent of the requirements wasn't as is then it would have been changed. This isn't a result of poor punctuation.

[alternis sol]

if your really that worried about the punctuation then go MoMs at lvl 1 grab pummeling charge (it will be useless for a couple lvls) as your style feat and pummeling style at lvl 3. lvl 3 is the earliest that you can effectively use pummeling style feats anyway you go about getting them, because 2 lvls MoMs means you have 1 attack until lvl 3 when you get flurry of blows back from SF, the advantage of 2 lvls of MoMs is the +1 bab at lvl 2 not giving up your lvl 3 feat.

[Secret Wizard]

The requirement is Flurry, B's Flurry, OR BAB +6. This is not a mistake. It is in line with many other feats.
For example, Jabbing Style has the same requirements. A mistake that's done twice is not a mistake anymore.

That being said, SF + MOMS has been done to death and there's a million builds around here you can read on.

[Undone]

I helped make the dragon style and snake style ones :D. It was fun and the characters are cool. I've still yet to see a higher level snake style build in game play but in theory they seem awesome.

My PFS tiefling is a MoMS/SF.

[Bigguyinblack]

When asked about the requirement for Pummeling Style. James Jacobs Creative Director "It says base attack bonus +6, so why wouldn't it require that? Of course it requires that."

I'm clearly not the only one reading that way. A few people have brought up the semicolon. Awaiting his response.

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

When asked about the requirement for Pummeling Style. James Jacobs Creative Director "It says base attack bonus +6, so why wouldn't it require that? Of course it requires that."

I'm clearly not the only one reading that way. A few people have brought up the semicolon. Awaiting his response.

JJ isn't a rule's guy and doesn't like to be quoted.

I've also never seen such a quote.

[ElementalXX]

Why would you want pummeling style at level 1 anyway? it would be pretty useless considering you would get almost nothing of it at that level

Also james is not really a rules guy tough, he has given many opinions about different rulings a many are not right, is not a good point to start argumentation

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I believe that the intent of the requirements are Improved Unarmed Strike and a BAB of +6 and either Flurry of Blows or Brawlers Flurry ability. I think that choosing Flurry in place of the +6 BAB for requirement is the result of poor punctuation.

This feat was specifically designed for monks and brawlers (and brawlers are based on monks anyway),there is absolutely no reason (by balance or fluff) fighter should be better at unarmed combat than monks and/or brawlers, the intent is pretty clear. The only thing you would do with that reading is deliberately nerfing monks, a nerf they dont need.

[Bigguyinblack]

Quote:

Manny interpret that statement to mean "Improved Unarmed Strike and any of the following: BAB +6, brawler's flurry, or flurry of blows."

Ah.... yup! That's correct. You only need one of those three things to qualify. Monks and brawlers qualify early, but other folks need to wait.

If that's not good enough, of course... it's time to take it to the rules boards for an FAQ. But that is indeed what's written.

Sometimes digging helps. I am now satisfied that 1 level of MoMS is fine. Still have to choose between +2 to saves from Half Orc or +5 to spell saves from Dwarf.

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

Quote:

Manny interpret that statement to mean "Improved Unarmed Strike and any of the following: BAB +6, brawler's flurry, or flurry of blows."

Ah.... yup! That's correct. You only need one of those three things to qualify. Monks and brawlers qualify early, but other folks need to wait.

If that's not good enough, of course... it's time to take it to the rules boards for an FAQ. But that is indeed what's written.

Sometimes digging helps. I am now satisfied that 1 level of MoMS is fine. Still have to choose between +2 to saves from Half Orc or +5 to spell saves from Dwarf.

I'm of the belief dwarf is the master race so I'm not much help here :p. Half orc is better damage though.

[Bigguyinblack]

I have heard that accuracy starts being a real concern at higher levels so I'll focus on Str and go Half Orc.
I really dislike how MAD this is. You need high Str because you are a melee class and Wis effects your AC and spells. But you are in melee so you want good Dex and Con as well.
I ask myself how is this better then my Zen Archer? and the only thing I can think of is the spells.
And my local GMs argue against using armor with no Armor Check penalty saying that the SF Flurry of Blows ability says it works like the Monk's. And yes I did point out that the Sacred Fist makes no mention of the can't flurry in armor in the Weapon/Armor proficiencies but they are not buying it.

[Imbicatus]

Undone wrote:

Bigguyinblack wrote:

Quote:

Manny interpret that statement to mean "Improved Unarmed Strike and any of the following: BAB +6, brawler's flurry, or flurry of blows."

Ah.... yup! That's correct. You only need one of those three things to qualify. Monks and brawlers qualify early, but other folks need to wait.

If that's not good enough, of course... it's time to take it to the rules boards for an FAQ. But that is indeed what's written.

Sometimes digging helps. I am now satisfied that 1 level of MoMS is fine. Still have to choose between +2 to saves from Half Orc or +5 to spell saves from Dwarf.

I'm of the belief dwarf is the master race so I'm not much help here :p. Half orc is better damage though.

For Monks, yes. For Warpriests including the Sacred Fist, Half Orc is better. Better Fate's Favored synergy, the best possible FCB, and that extra 10 move is really appreciated on a class that doesn't get fast movement.

[Imbicatus]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I have heard that accuracy starts being a real concern at higher levels so I'll focus on Str and go Half Orc.

I really dislike how MAD this is. You need high Str because you are a melee class and Wis effects your AC and spells. But you are in melee so you want good Dex and Con as well.
I ask myself how is this better then my Zen Archer? and the only thing I can think of is the spells.
And my local GMs argue against using armor with no Armor Check penalty saying that the SF Flurry of Blows ability says it works like the Monk's. And yes I did point out that the Sacred Fist makes no mention of the can't flurry in armor in the Weapon/Armor proficiencies but they are not buying it.

You can show them the Sohei FAQ, and point out that the Sohei and Sacred Fist both do not have that language.

However, I'm sure if there ever is a FAQ for Sacred Fist flurrying in armor, it's going to land on the side of no flurry in armor because Sacred Fist does not have any armor proficiency, but Sohei has proficiency in light armor.

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I have heard that accuracy starts being a real concern at higher levels so I'll focus on Str and go Half Orc.

It can be but it's not back breaking.

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I really dislike how MAD this is. You need high Str because you are a melee class and Wis effects your AC and spells. But you are in melee so you want good Dex and Con as well.

You actually need to pick a defensive stat. In this case wisdom is your defensive stat.

Bigguyinblack wrote:

I ask myself how is this better then my Zen Archer? and the only thing I can think of is the spells.

Magic is a colossal difference. You have the ability to self haste in addition to Ki. You don't suck for level's 1 and 2. Your damage actually does scale higher at the cost of defensive stats though.

Do not get me wrong though if you're worried about a ZAM a bit over you then you're in a good spot. It's kind of like how the arcanist is just a bad wizard, that doesn't mean it's not incredibly powerful.

Bigguyinblack wrote:

And my local GMs argue against using armor with no Armor Check penalty saying that the SF Flurry of Blows ability says it works like the Monk's. And yes I did point out that the Sacred Fist makes no mention of the can't flurry in armor in the Weapon/Armor proficiencies but they are not buying it.

1) Fortunately it's RAW and PFS run's RAW. Sohei establishes proof that it can flurry in armor (Haramaki being the big one.) because proficencies are what determine if you can or can't. Only the monk is bound by that rule. Ask them if they would restrict a brawler from flurrying in chain shirt. If you can't find the wording that says it doesn't work it works.

2) Armor is strictly worse than your wisdom modifier if you start with an 18 (Tiefling oni spawn or oread) along with mage armor wand because you get magic vestment which explicitly allows it to be used with no armor. Your AC will be very high. I only ever go for a 12 con because you shouldn't get hit often and you should kill things when you charge.

3) Using armor is more expensive. It's better only in the extreme short term (Level 1-3) then it instantly falls off as you reach the point where your AC Scales extremely fast with a wisdom headband and so on.

Quote:

For Monks, yes. For Warpriests including the Sacred Fist, Half Orc is better. Better Fate's Favored synergy, the best possible FCB, and that extra 10 move is really appreciated on a class that doesn't get fast movement.

I'm still of the firm belief that for a SF Oread and tiefling are best (Any str/wis or dex/wis race with abilities) because tusked doesn't help on a pummeling. Half orc is extremely good though if you don't have access to those races and even if you do it's in contention.

[Bigguyinblack]

So let's say my MoMS1/SF7 has a 26 Str +8 bonus. Normally my unarmed strikes will deal 1d8 +8 Str. Dragon Style adds half of my Str modifier to my first unarmed strike in a round. If I use Pummeling Style does it just mean the first attack in the Flurry or does the Pummeling Style make it all 1 attack? Does Horn of the Criosphinx add to damage as well or does it fail the stacking unnamed bonuses check?
Other then wearing armor is there any way to gain the benefit of the Brawling enhancement? Bracers of Armor are not Light armor.

What are some good 1 hour per level Cleric spells?

[Undone]

Bigguyinblack wrote:

So let's say my MoMS1/SF7 has a 26 Str +8 bonus. Normally my unarmed strikes will deal 1d8 +8 Str. Dragon Style adds half of my Str modifier to my first unarmed strike in a round. If I use Pummeling Style does it just mean the first attack in the Flurry or does the Pummeling Style make it all 1 attack? Does Horn of the Criosphinx add to damage as well or does it fail the stacking unnamed bonuses check?

Pummeling style is a single hit. Things which apply on an attack by attack basis apply to all damage rolls. Things which apply to the first damage roll apply once. Dragon style on a charge provides the full 2 STR to every single roll. Horn has the same wording. You also get +2 to hit on all the attack rolls from a charge.

Bigguyinblack wrote:

Other then wearing armor is there any way to gain the benefit of the Brawling enhancement? Bracers of Armor are not Light armor.

No. Don't worry about it. You'll do fine as is.

Bigguyinblack wrote:

What are some good 1 hour per level Cleric spells?

Magic vestment. There are a lot of good 10/level buffs though.