Defile / Sanctify Armor


Rules Questions


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I am coding a Spell Adjustment script for Hero Lab and have run into a question with Defile Armor spell. When I scripted the logic for the Mythic part I put the Profane bonus onto the Armor because Defile Armor only affects armor. This logic is in question as others say the bonus goes directly onto the character. This means that the profane bonus would not stack with any other affect giving a profane bonus to the character.

If it goes on the Armor it will stack with any other profane bonuses on the character. It is a only usable by a 3rd tier mythic character that augments the spell (using two mythic power). So the fact that it can stack seems to be a benefit of mythic.

Below is the spell details and I have the highlighted parts that cause the issue. The wording for Mythic does seem to say its the "Character" that gets the bonus. But at the same time the spell ONLY affects "armor".

So anyone have any thoughts on who gets the bonus (Character or Armor)?

Thanks!

Defile Armor:

Defile Armor
School abjuration [evil]; Level antipaladin 3, inquisitor 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Targets armor touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless, object); Spell Resistance yes (harmless, object)

As sanctify armor, except you gain DR 5/good when using your judgment or smite ability.

Mythic Defile Armor
You gain DR 5/good while wearing the target armor. While using your judgment or smite ability, this improves to DR 10/good.

Augmented (3rd): If you expend two uses of mythic power, while you use your judgment or smite, add half your tier to your AC as a profane bonus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It doesn't matter. If both bonuses are going to the same "destination" are of the same type. i.e. 2 Profane Bonuses to Armor Class, 1 granted from armor, one granted from some place else like a ring or your underwear, then they still don't stack.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
It doesn't matter. If both bonuses are going to the same "destination" are of the same type. i.e. 2 Profane Bonuses to Armor Class, 1 granted from armor, one granted from some place else like a ring or your underwear, then they still don't stack.

From the point of view of "software" that is not the case. The profane bonus on Armor would stack with the Profane bonus on the character. As the values exist on two different Things in memory.

So by this I am assuming your going that the bonus should go on the character so it does not stack?

Hmm I what your saying is the same for a Ring of Protection. That deflection bonus goes onto the character not really the ring.....

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShadowChemosh wrote:
LazarX wrote:
It doesn't matter. If both bonuses are going to the same "destination" are of the same type. i.e. 2 Profane Bonuses to Armor Class, 1 granted from armor, one granted from some place else like a ring or your underwear, then they still don't stack.

From the point of view of "software" that is not the case. The profane bonus on Armor would stack with the Profane bonus on the character. As the values exist on two different Things in memory.

So by this I am assuming your going that the bonus should go on the character so it does not stack?

Hmm I what your saying is the same for a Ring of Protection. That deflection bonus goes onto the character not really the ring.....

The argument is irrelevant on where the bonus "goes to" It's where it's APPLIED to. In the case of a Ring of Protection it's a deflection bonus applied to AC. If it was Bra of Protection +2, it'd still work out the same way. Bonuses are applied to things such as armor class, land speed, skill rolls etc. Whether the bonus is from armor, or the sacred kiss your god mother put on your heel, the question is where the bonus is applied. IF you have two bonuses applied to your armor class and they are of the same type, say sacred or profane, the middle route of carriage is irrelevant for the purpose of stacking rules.

So it boils down to this. You have Item A that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC, You have Item B that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC. It does not matter whether A is a ring, B is a broom. It also does not matter if A is a divine blessing given to the character and B is a ring you just looted off your buddy. No matter what forms A and B take, they will not stack.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
LazarX wrote:
So it boils down to this. You have Item A that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC, You have Item B that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC. It does not matter whether A is a ring, B is a broom. It also does not matter if A is a divine blessing given to the character and B is a ring you just looted off your buddy. No matter what forms A and B take, they will not stack.

Thanks for info as your second paragraph really helped out. I think I am now on the same page as you and in agreement. Where I had the issues is in how the "software" handles the different bonuses. I should have come at this purely from the game logic angle.

I see now how that got me confused. The profane bonus while on the armor is "pushed" to the hero and that is where the total value needs to be applied. Regardless if its armor or a broom. ;)

Thanks!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You're welcome.


LazarX wrote:
So it boils down to this. You have Item A that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC, You have Item B that gives you a Profane Bonus to AC. It does not matter whether A is a ring, B is a broom. It also does not matter if A is a divine blessing given to the character and B is a ring you just looted off your buddy. No matter what forms A and B take, they will not stack.

This is not totally accurate, because you can have an enhancement bonus to your Armor bonus and an enhancement to your Natural Armor bonus.

That's why the software allows you to add bonuses directly to the armor.

The real issue is that only enhancement bonuses can alter another bonus. Your armor bonus cannot receive a profane bonus to its value.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mplindustries wrote:

This is not totally accurate, because you can have an enhancement bonus to your Armor bonus and an enhancement to your Natural Armor bonus.

That's why the software allows you to add bonuses directly to the armor.

The real issue is that only enhancement bonuses can alter another bonus. Your armor bonus cannot receive a profane bonus to its value.

The question was specifically about two bonuses specifically applied to an Armor Bonus to Armor class. Natural Armor is a different bonus, just as if we would be talking about a Shield Bonus, or Dodge Bonus.

The speech is clumsy because of the multiple use of the word bonus. it probably would be clearer if we used the terms Profane Enhancement, Dodge Enhancemnt, etc. But we're stuck with what Paizo has made common use.

Silver Crusade

An Enhancement Bonus on armor modifies the Armor Bonus of that armor. It changes the Armor Bonus, which is what gets applied to the character. Two different Armor Bonuses do not stack. The same with an Amulet of Natural Armor. It is an enhancement to the Natural Armor Bonus that applies to the character, not an Enhancement Bonus to the character.

Amulet of Natural Armor wrote:


DESCRIPTION

This amulet, usually crafted from bone or beast scales, toughens the wearer's body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor from +1 to +5, depending on the kind of amulet.

I can't find the specific rule on enhancement bonuses, but it may be an implied leftover from 3.5, where it was spelled out. I'll search to see if it has been discussed before.

Edits:

Good discussion.

Explained well.


LazarX wrote:
mplindustries wrote:

This is not totally accurate, because you can have an enhancement bonus to your Armor bonus and an enhancement to your Natural Armor bonus.

That's why the software allows you to add bonuses directly to the armor.

The real issue is that only enhancement bonuses can alter another bonus. Your armor bonus cannot receive a profane bonus to its value.

The question was specifically about two bonuses specifically applied to an Armor Bonus to Armor class. Natural Armor is a different bonus, just as if we would be talking about a Shield Bonus, or Dodge Bonus.

The speech is clumsy because of the multiple use of the word bonus. it probably would be clearer if we used the terms Profane Enhancement, Dodge Enhancemnt, etc. But we're stuck with what Paizo has made common use.

You were dead on with the Profane thing, but I was trying to say that you can't apply that across the board.

Enhancement bonuses don't apply to your character directly, they apply to another bonus. That's why Amulets of Natural Armor and Magic Armor both work together, because they each Enhance another bonus. That's why Hero Labs is programmed the way it is.

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