
Elicoor |
Hello dear community members !
For this first post of mine on the Rules Questions forums, and after 3 hours of extensive search all around the web, I still have an unanswered question. (About the silken ceremonial armor, for those who didn't already read the topic title.)
Please no 3rd party or 3.5 basis for rules.
1. Given the way a silken ceremonial is built (several layers of silk + metal studs), and given special metals can be applied to studded leather armors (cf GMG118), is it possible to apply special metals to the crafting of silken ceremonial armors ?
2. If not, which other materials could be applicable (except from griffon mane and its Fly check bonus) ?
Thanks !

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No, it is not significantly metal, so you can't make it out of a metal special material.
That said, if you want a mithril, fire-forged, or adamantine Silken Ceremonial armor, just make it a Haramaki instead. It has the same stats, it's lighter & cheaper, and is specifically lined with metal, and is thus a valid recipient of metal special materials.

Elicoor |
The haramaki is clearly out of concept for the character I'm trying to portray in the campaign I'm playing.
From the description of the Ultimate Equipment, it doesn't seem the metal parts of the silken ceremonial (metal studs) are functionally different from those in a studded leather.
Here's a pic of a silken ceremonial : http://www.flickr.com/photos/unforth/3554761533/
And here's the studded leather :
http://www.lantredurenard.com/anglais/studdedarmor.html
Or should I consider averything about metal materials on studded leather is deemed as invalid ? If so, FAQ link please.

Saldiven |
Honestly, without digging through the FAQ's, I can't find anything specifically that would prevent it.
The Silken Ceremonial is described as: Used for ceremonial displays or occasionally worn (albeit with no additional benefit) over heavier armor, these robes consist of several layers of cloth and an outer layer of silk intricately woven with gold brocade designs and covered with metal studs.
I can't find anything that states that the item has to be made entirely or predominantly of metal to use one of the special metal types. Adamantium only says "Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine."
Lacking more precise wording, I think it would come down to a GM interpretation.
I could understand an argument being made that something like Studded Leather doesn't have enough metal present to gain any real benefit from having a special metal material.

Claxon |

Reading through the special materials section of the core rule book Mithral says:
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)
However, that is only specifically for mithral that it is mentioned.
Adamantine says:
Adamantine: Mined from rocks that fell from the heavens, this ultrahard metal adds to the quality of a weapon or suit of armor. Weapons fashioned from adamantine have a natural ability to bypass hardness when sundering weapons or attacking objects, ignoring hardness less than 20 (see Additional Rules). Armor made from adamantine grants its wearer damage reduction of 1/— if it's light armor, 2/— if it's medium armor, and 3/— if it's heavy armor. Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls, and the armor check penalty of adamantine armor is lessened by 1 compared to ordinary armor of its type. Items without metal parts cannot be made from adamantine. An arrow could be made of adamantine, but a quarterstaff could not.
Weapons and armor normally made of steel that are made of adamantine have one-third more hit points than normal. Adamantine has 40 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 20.
Darkwood says:
Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow or spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.
Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.
So it seems like it is a mixed bag in what it says. However, I feel like there is enough "intention" within the rules to say that for a special material to meaningfully affect armor, it must be primarily made from that material. The example from adamntine doesn't change this. It's simply that on an arrow the important bit is the metal tip. So an adamantine arrow makes sense. But, for silken armor it's primarily not metal. Replacing a few metal bits doesn't make much of a difference in what it does.
So you couldn't make silken ceremonial armor from horacalcum. It could however be made from darkleaf cloth.

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If you don't want a Haramaki, that's cool, but it's really just a chainmail sash that is wrapped around your stomach. It can be worn under clothes/ceremonial robes that look like silken armor and still give you it's armor benefits.
I just don't see how something that is hidden like that could affect your concept.

Elicoor |
And for my question about the studded leather being officially metal armor or not, in regards to special materials? Please only answer using official sources, as my DM only accepts them.
(My DM has finally ruled it would apply exactly the same for the silken ceremonial as both armors are studded almost the same way)

Kage_no_Oukami |

Honestly I didn't know you could use metal materials on studded leather armor to any effect. In the special materials section of Ultimate Equipment, studded leather is listed with leather and hide armors when referencing the type of armors that material can make (eel hide, darkleaf cloth, angel skin) and I didn't see anything in the studded leather entry that says it could be made of metal. Am I missing something? Are there other armors that can be made from both metal AND hide?

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You might try looking in the GameMastery Guide. It has extensive charts on which weapons and armor are predominantly made of what materials.
It's the only sourcebook that states you can make a Buckler out of either wood or metal, for example. Ultimate Equipment and the CRB list it as just being metal.

Ravingdork |

And for my question about the studded leather being officially metal armor or not, in regards to special materials? Please only answer using official sources, as my DM only accepts them.
(My DM has finally ruled it would apply exactly the same for the silken ceremonial as both armors are studded almost the same way)
There is a table in one of the books, though I don't recall which one, that lists all the armor and weapons that were published at that time, and specifically calls out which ones are made of wood or metal for the purposes of qualifying for special materials.
EDIT: Ninja'd by those more knowledgeable than I.

Claxon |

How is silken ceremonial armor not meaningfully made from metal? If the metal studs are not giving you the +1 AC bonus what is? Silk?
Silken Ceremonial Armor: Used for ceremonial displays or occasionally worn (albeit with no additional benefit) over heavier armor, these robes consist of several layers of cloth and an outer layer of silk intricately woven with gold brocade designs and covered with metal studs.
You basically have cloth armor. Interestingly padded armor and quilted cloth armor both provide the same armor bonus.

Saldiven |
How is silken ceremonial armor not meaningfully made from metal? If the metal studs are not giving you the +1 AC bonus what is? Silk?
Actually, from a historical standpoint, silk was an important part of the armor used by the Mongols when they invaded China, the Middle East, and Europe. Silk is very resistant to slashing or piercing because it is strong, flexible and lightweight.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_armour

Ipslore the Red |

How is silken ceremonial armor not meaningfully made from metal? If the metal studs are not giving you the +1 AC bonus what is? Silk?
Silk, yes. It's the same principle as Kevlar- lots of layers of a fabric very resistant to physical force. Have you heard that keratin and spider silk have a higher tensile strength than steel, for example?

mplindustries |

The haramaki is clearly out of concept for the character I'm trying to portray in the campaign I'm playing.
From the description of the Ultimate Equipment, it doesn't seem the metal parts of the silken ceremonial (metal studs) are functionally different from those in a studded leather.
Here's a pic of a silken ceremonial : http://www.flickr.com/photos/unforth/3554761533/
And here's the studded leather :
http://www.lantredurenard.com/anglais/studdedarmor.htmlOr should I consider averything about metal materials on studded leather is deemed as invalid ? If so, FAQ link please.
So, let me say that is not what Studded Leather looks like because Studded Leather never existed. It's a Victorian misunderstanding of earlier art depicting Mail.
It's made up, so, we can't really use any pictures as a guide. In fact, it's going to be up to individual designers as to what they think it looks like and what special materials work with it.
As a GM, I, for example, would not allow your to make Studded Leather with special metal. Or, rather, I wouldn't allow you to get any benefit from the special metal. And yeah, I wouldn't allow the Silken Ceremonial with special metal (or leathers) either.

Uwotm8 |
NikolaiJuno wrote:How is silken ceremonial armor not meaningfully made from metal? If the metal studs are not giving you the +1 AC bonus what is? Silk?Silk, yes. It's the same principle as Kevlar- lots of layers of a fabric very resistant to physical force. Have you heard that keratin and spider silk have a higher tensile strength than steel, for example?
Silk is a wonder material. It doesn't take a relative lot to stop airplanes mid-flight.

Kage_no_Oukami |

Yup, the Gamemastery Guide has studded leather armor listed as being augmented by metals (mithral and adamantine). At the time this was printed I don't think there were special leather materials though so I guess that makes sense so if you're just looking for proof to show your GM, there it is.
Still I would like to know if there is an official answer for this: can studded leather armor be made of metal and leather still, or since the introduction of new materials in Ultimate Equipment did this change?

kestral287 |
Studded leather armor has always been made of metal and leather. I don't understand your question. Are you asking if you can still make it with adamantine or mithral?
That's exactly the question at hand, how it interacts with special materials.
It seems like the Gamemastery Guide has the more precise answer. Based on what I'm reading, Ultimate Equipment is being referenced only because it lists studded leather as an option for various cloth/leather based materials. However, so far as I know there is no rule stating that this is a dichotomy; that a material must be one or the other and can never be both. In the absence of such a rule, the GM Guide would be the book to consult, and seems to list studded leather as a legal option for metal materials.

Uwotm8 |
I thought it was about silken ceremonial armor cuz title. Anyway...
Of course it can. Why couldn't it? It is an armor made with metal. Druids certainly can't use it. However, it would take some houseruling since it's not entirely made of armor so I can't see it conferring the same bonus as if you chose to make a chain shirt or plate with it.

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This is why you should read through the thread before responding.
The question, more literally is "My GM has ruled that if studded leather works with metal materials, so does silken ceremonial. Please provide RAW reasons why studded leather works with metal materials".
It doesn't... next question?
The primary material of studded leather is NOT metal so there is no reason to revive a mithral leather armor discussion for the Nth time.

kestral287 |
kestral287 wrote:This is why you should read through the thread before responding.
The question, more literally is "My GM has ruled that if studded leather works with metal materials, so does silken ceremonial. Please provide RAW reasons why studded leather works with metal materials".
It doesn't... next question?
The primary material of studded leather is NOT metal so there is no reason to revive a mithral leather armor discussion for the Nth time.
From what I'm reading in this thread-- as I don't own the book-- the GM Guide seems to say otherwise. Unless I've been misinformed on that subject.
So I guess "next question" would be "Can you provide a RAW source for saying it doesn't and explain how said RAW source doesn't conflict with the GM Guide"?

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I haven't seen any such thing in the GM guide, but I have been known to be blind.
However, looking at the entry for bone...
Bone can be used in place of wood and steel in weapons and armor. Other animal-based materials like horn, shell, and ivory also use the rules for bone weapon and armor. The cost of a bone weapon or bone armor is half the price of a normal weapon or armor of its type.
Light and one-handed melee weapons, as well as two-handed weapons that deal bludgeoning damage only, can be crafted from bone. Hafted two-handed weapons such as spears can be crafted with bone tips, as can arrowheads. Other two-handed weapons cannot be constructed of bone.
Bone weapons have half the hardness of their base weapons and have the fragile weapon quality. Masterwork bone weapons also have the fragile quality, but magic bone weapons do not. Bone weapons take a –2 penalty on damage rolls (minimum 1 damage).
Studded leather, scale mail, breastplates, and wooden shields can all be constructed using bone. Bone either replaces the metal components of the armor, or in the case of wooden shields, large pieces of bone or shell replace the wood.
Bone armor has hardness 5 and has the fragile armor quality. Masterwork bone armor also has the fragile quality, but magic bone armor does not. The armor/shield bonus of bone armor is reduced by 1, but in the case of studded leather, the armor check penalty is also reduced by 1 (to 0). Magically strengthened bone does not have the fragile quality or reduced armor/shield bonus.

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According to the GameMastery Guide, page 118, Studded Leather benefits from being made of Special Material metals.
So, Mithral Studded Leather Armor would weigh half as much as regular Studded Leather, and Adamantine Studded Leather Armor would have DR 1/-.
Unfortunately, Silken Ceremonial Armor is not listed in the GMG, but if you are of the belief that it benefits from metal studs as much as Studded Leather, then the same logic should apply for using Special Material metals.
EDIT: wooooah, how did I miss the post right above me? I need more coffee...