Shadows and other Incorpreals. How do they do it?


Rules Questions

The Exchange

A favored tactic of GMs is to have their incorporeal critters hide in the ground itself, and come out to ambush hapless PCs. One question I would like to ask, is that if the incorporeals are hiding in the ground/pillar etc..how would they know that the PCs are there? They have essentially total cover between them and the PCs, blind sense, blind sight both require line of effect. Life sense/hear heartbeat is modeled after blindsight. The lower level incorpreals, ie. shadows do not even have blindsense/blindsight. If they were hiding in the ground, how would they know that the PCs are coming?

I have seen greater shadows using flyby attack, to return to the pillar that they were originally hiding in, with the GM saying you can't hit them because they disappeared into the pillar. Is it possible to aim a flyby at a creature you cannot see in total cover?

Now if this were Earth elementals, against PCs who were walking on the ground, I would have no objections, as tremor sense does not require line of effect, so they could technically pinpoint where the PCs are to do their hit and run tactics.

Dark Archive

You are correct. This is an oft misused GM tactic to make a fight more difficult by literally breaking the rules. Not much you can do about it, but take heart in the fact that you are correct and they are not.

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

From the Incorporeal (Ex) ability:

Quote:
It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object.
Just a Mort wrote:

I have seen greater shadows using flyby attack, to return to the pillar that they were originally hiding in, with the GM saying you can't hit them because they disappeared into the pillar. Is it possible to aim a flyby at a creature you cannot see in total cover?

Yes. Flyby Attack doesn't have the restriction that Charge does in having to see your target to start. Heck, you don't even have to attack with Flyby Attack.

Also, note that Flyby Attack doesn't protect against AoOs, so you should still be able to hit the shadows as they go past.

Sczarni

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Just a Mort

By simple sound. Footsteps can be heard through the stone if you put your ear on it. Often enough, your shadow doesn't even have to know exact position. He just enters the wall or floor and comes out back whenever it pleases.

The part about incorporeal creatures you could have investigated yourself:

Incorporeals wrote:
"An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks."

Incorporeals can do a lot of stuff but you can always Ready Action against their attack.

Adam

The Exchange

1)Does that mean a shadow can't take total cover in the floor(as the floor is bigger then them), but is granted total concealment instead)and PCs (assuming they managed to pinpoint the shadows location using detect evil/detect undead), and win init, can attack the square the shadow is in, eat the miss chance and hit the shadow?

2) When a shadow hiding in an object hits a pc that is next to the object, is the pc considered flatfooted as he never saw it coming?


1) No, you are misreading the text.
When a shadow is in a wall it has Total Cover.

If a shadow in a wall attacks it has Cover only at the moment it is attacking. After it's attack it regains Total Cover.
Because of this the player must use a readied action to attack it while it is attacking.

When a shadow attacks creatures while it is in a wall those creatures have Total Concealment relative to the shadow. Ie., the shadow must roll a 50% concealment check in addition to the attack roll.

2) If the PC was unaware of the shadow then yes.

Summary:
Do not be adjacent to any wall, floor, or ceiling when dealing with incorporeal creatures.
Use readied actions to deal with incorporeal creatures.

The Exchange

What if the pcs all saw the greater shadow duck into the floor, and its the 2nd time that the greater shadow intends to flyby and repeat?

Also, readied actions are fine, but should you be readying to melee atk, or range atk, since the shadow can decide to pop anywhere, including next to you.You couod be readying a melee attack just to see it pop in the diagonal next to your buddy, out of your melee reach, to flyby back into the ground.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Just a Mort,

No, by RAW once the combat has started and they have acted they are no longer flat-footed unless a creature has some ability to create the flat-footed condition (shadows do not have that ability).

With that said, what I think you are really meaning is does the creature count as invisible or hidden and thus deny dexterity on a subsequent attack.

Unfortunately, the current rules regarding stealth are pretty vague. The Stealth playtest attempted to address this but it never became RAW. If you are playing in a home (rather than a PFS game) game I suggest that you explore the stealth playtest. It makes sense out of a lot of the stealth rules.

Regarding readied actions: As a readied action you can 5' step. Depending on the situation that could give a whole bunch of people an attack before it pops back in.

Lets start by saying everyone has a readied action and on the last turn nobody moved.
1 (Fighter): Attack Shadow (with melee weapon) when Shadow appears (attacks anyone).
2 (Cleric): Channel Energy to harm Shadow when Shadow appears (attacks anyone).
3 (Ranger): Attack Shadow (with ranged weapon) when Shadow appears (attacks anyone).
4 (Wizard): Magic Missile Shadow when Shadow appears.

In the diagram below "W" is "Wall" while "X" is empty". 1, 2, 3, and 4 are PCs. "S" is Shadow in a Wall.
WXXW
W12W
W34W
WXXS

Now, the rules are silent on who goes first if multiple readied actions occur on the same trigger. I suggest that people allow the basic initiative rules to prevail to prevent chaos (including the ability to wait until other readied actions have resolved). However, that is a house rule I use to resolve these sorts of situations.

S: moves along the inside of the wall and then attacks 4.
4: 5' steps to just below 3 and hits the Shadow with Magic Missiles. 3: Shoots S (with Cover).
2: Channels Energy to harm S.
1: 5' steps to 4's former location to attack S (with S having cover).
S: fails to attack anyone since it's movement is done and it began it's attack sequence. (note: some people argue that if it has movement remaining it can use it and then attack. Others state that it can choose to attack someone else. That is another debate.)

Ending positions:
WXXW
WX2W
W31W
W4XS

Frankly, Shadows are a PITA but not a huge problem for a group that is ready to deal with them.


I remember one combat against shadows where half the party was huddled on one Floating Disc so they couldn't be attacked through floor, and my wizard with a second floating disk was using it to move the 3 str fighter around the battlefield so she still try to attack (because she too weak to move in her armor).


Always buy 3 ranks in Acrobatics. +6 Dodge for Total Defense is so much better than +4 Dodge.

The Exchange

You see, there's a slight problem with that.

Dodge Bonuses

Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexteritybonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.

I still prefer the no moving readying actions to attack/get out of the way so allies can hit route.

People here, especially Gauss(the diagrams rock!), thanks a lot for teaching me about how incorporeals work(didn't realise they could sense the presence of things beside the objects they were hiding in previously) and how best to counter them. It has been a very informative session for me reading all this.


Malag wrote:

@Just a Mort

Incorporeals can do a lot of stuff but you can always Ready Action against their attack.

This is what you would primarily do, along with channeling.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Just a Mort wrote:


Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.

Perhaps I've misread something, but I'm not seeing what would deny a character's DEX bonus by having a shadow be in a wall. Incorporeal /= invisible.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HangarFlying wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:


Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.
Perhaps I've misread something, but I'm not seeing what would deny a character's DEX bonus by having a shadow be in a wall. Incorporeal /= invisible.

But you can hide as part of movement (such as that being used to disappear into the pillar), and being in a pillar breaks line of sight, effectively granting total concealment, which allows one to hide quite effectively.

My incorporeal creatures usually ignore a PCs' Dexterity and Dodge bonuses as a result. After all, there is no way for the PC to really know which direction the next attack is going to come from.

Sovereign Court

Ravingdork wrote:
HangarFlying wrote:
Just a Mort wrote:


Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.
Perhaps I've misread something, but I'm not seeing what would deny a character's DEX bonus by having a shadow be in a wall. Incorporeal /= invisible.

But you can hide as part of movement (such as that being used to disappear into the pillar), and being in a pillar breaks line of sight, effectively granting total concealment, which allows one to hide quite effectively.

My incorporeal creatures usually ignore a PCs' Dexterity and Dodge bonuses as a result. After all, there is no way for the PC to really know which direction the next attack is going to come from.

That would work - unless the players do the standard tactic of readying actions to attack the incorporeal creatures. Then they would have acted after the incoreal creature no longer had total cover and before the incoporeal creature did.

Sczarni

@Just a Mort

I believe that you had experience with several GMs not using shadows as expected. A GM could technically wipe party with 1 shadow if he is devious enough, but there is short tangent between fun and not having fun in Pathfinder. Reasonable GM should play her foes according to intelligence, expected tactics and what it can do, but he should also set several "mistakes" that a foe does. A reasonable "mistake" would be that shadow attacks cleric only (enabling PCs to ready action near him), does not enter through solid terrain all the time, etc. These mistakes are chances for your PCs to shine and deal with a threat. If your GM did mechanical mistakes, feel free to point him out at universal monster rules regarding incorporeals and incorporeal monster subtype rules.


Just a Mort wrote:

You see, there's a slight problem with that.

Dodge Bonuses

Dodge bonuses represent actively avoiding blows. Any situation that denies you your Dexteritybonus also denies you dodge bonuses. (Wearing armor, however, does not limit these bonuses the way it limits a Dexterity bonus to AC.) Unlike most sorts of bonuses, dodge bonuses stack with each other.

Lets assume our shadow has been hiding in the wall. It's up to gm fiat if you're considered denied dex. In which you just wasted a standard action doing nothing.

I still prefer the no moving readying actions to attack/get out of the way so allies can hit route.

People here, especially Gauss(the diagrams rock!), thanks a lot for teaching me about how incorporeals work(didn't realise they could sense the presence of things beside the objects they were hiding in previously) and how best to counter them. It has been a very informative session for me reading all this.

Ahhhh, but PC's will at least be given a Perception check (opposed by the Stealth check). This gives them a chance to retain Dex/Dodge bonuses.

The Exchange

Lets say a lv 8 wizard has been diligently putting ranks into perception. You get a +8 or a +10 (if you be elf) to beat a greater shadows +20 stealth check. God help you if encounter occurs in dim light, the stealth check goes up to a +24. Meh.

Grand Lodge

Just a Mort wrote:
Lets say a lv 8 wizard has been diligently putting ranks into perception. You get a +8 or a +10 (if you be elf) to beat a greater shadows +20 stealth check. God help you if encounter occurs in dim light, the stealth check goes up to a +24. Meh.

I wouldn't put a Wizard's Perception up against just about anything, really.

Now, consider an 8th level Cleric, with a trait to make Perception a Class skill with a +1 trait bonus. 8 ranks in Perception, 22 or 24 Wisdom, +1 Trait bonus, so, base, before any feats or other add-ons, is +18 or +19, +20 or +21 if an elf.

Also, for either caster, Daylight is available on their lists, by this time. And, at this point in time, if you are going dungeon delving much, you should have a Continuous Flame item, potentially Heightened to 4th level.

Other spells you could have on tap:
Ghostbane Dirge, for one. Nothing like neutralizing a significant part of an incorporeal undead's defenses in one swell foop.
Force spells, since they have full effect.

Channel Positive Energy, full effect.

Believe me, for a party that knows what they are doing, even a Greater Shadow is a snack, but for an under-prepared party, it can be ugly. Then again, the same thing holds true for swarms.

Silver Crusade

Just a Mort wrote:
Lets say a lv 8 wizard has been diligently putting ranks into perception. You get a +8 or a +10 (if you be elf) to beat a greater shadows +20 stealth check. God help you if encounter occurs in dim light, the stealth check goes up to a +24. Meh.

My PFS wizard has perception as a class skill from a trait, and Lenses of Detection as a magic item. There are also other tweaks, but at 10th level, his bonus is +28. You can make it so that you can detect things.


Level 8 = +8? Interesting character design. I typically would have a +18 (8+3class+1trait+5magic item+1wisdom) as a level 8 human wizard. While not DesolateHarmony's +28 it isn't difficult to get up there.

As a human wizard I might also consider having the skill focus feats (+3@lvl8 or +6@lvl10) and a familiar (+2@lvl8 or +4@lvl10). That would give me another +5@lvl8 or +10@lvl10 boost (probably Desolate Harmony's bonus is derived similarly).

In short, I can easily get a Wizard up to high perception levels and I usually will just so that he can buff/debuff/blast before the enemy can act.

The Exchange

Gauss - +18 vs +20, 60 % chance of not spotting mr greater shadow, which translates to a 60% chance you will get hit flatfooted and your total defense action do nothing? Heh. I don't really expect wizards to do perception either. Clerics on the other hand...esp those with feather domain, could probably spot the shadow in the wall itself, if it was within the rules to do so(which isnt).

Also have some issues with total defense action - I suppose its useful, in some niche situations like choke holding the doorway with the party archer, gunslinger shooting at the monsters. But if everyone selfishly does it, the problem of monsters aren't going to go away.

My lv 12 wizard has +14-16 to perception :( First character made in the time where Ultimate Campaign wasn't out, and worshipping Abadar/ being from grand lodge just wasn't in character.


Please show me where I ever suggested that Total Defense is a primary solution. I simply stated the bonuses involved. Please do not take me out of context.

Also, as others have pointed out, Daylight is an option to remove some of it's stealth ability.

Ultimately, there are a number of ways to deal with it and as Kinevon said, only an unprepared party has a problem with shadows. Total Defense (or fighting defensively) are just options. Having 3 ranks of acrobatics HELPS those options. Which was what I said.


Just a Mort wrote:

Gauss - +18 vs +20, 60 % chance of not spotting mr greater shadow, which translates to a 60% chance you will get hit flatfooted and your total defense action do nothing? Heh. I don't really expect wizards to do perception either. Clerics on the other hand...esp those with feather domain, could probably spot the shadow in the wall itself, if it was within the rules to do so(which isnt).

Also have some issues with total defense action - I suppose its useful, in some niche situations like choke holding the doorway with the party archer, gunslinger shooting at the monsters. But if everyone selfishly does it, the problem of monsters aren't going to go away.

My lv 12 wizard has +14-16 to perception :( First character made in the time where Ultimate Campaign wasn't out, and worshipping Abadar/ being from grand lodge just wasn't in character.

Every class should put points into perception, and boosting skills is not that hard if you really want to do so.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Shadows and other Incorpreals. How do they do it? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.