
jasonthelamb |
Just wondering how other DMs deal with the rogue / party trap finder finding traps in dungeons.
1) Roll for each square: Seems to take too long as the party gets trap paranoia
2) Roll only for traps: Characters / players seem to Metagame when you ask them for a perception check on only the traps, and when they fail they find other means to set said trap off.
3) DM roll for traps behind the screens: Player doesn't want to feel their "character is being played by the DM".
So, I was just wondering - how do you guys deal with it?

jasonthelamb |
4) Let them declare when they're searching for traps, and then roll.
I think 4 is the standard way, as you need a specific rogue talent to get an automatic Perception check when you're near a trap.
Sorry, that's what I meant for the first one - basically it becomes a "roll for every square" because parties get paranoid

Reverse |

2) Roll only for traps: Characters / players seem to Metagame when you ask them for a perception check on only the traps, and when they fail they find other means to set said trap off.
This is the one I prefer. I presume, as competent adventurers, that they check for traps in the same way they clean their weapons, keep their gear tidy, etc (ie, without having to constantly tell the DM they're doing it).
There's a few ways to avoid the metagaming aspect of it:
1) Use the Take 10 rules (called 'passive perception' in 4E and assume that the character have a constant check of 10 + their skill. Check that against the DC of the trap - if they succeed, they find it. If not, it goes off. No rolls required. It doesn't help with players with trap paranoia, however, because suitably obnoxious players can simply demand to take 20 on his quare.
2) Have the Perception check be reactive upon the actions. A half-second before the character opens the door, the player makes the check. There's no time to change the action if the check fails - the character is already opening the door, having not noticed the trap.
3) Check for traps in advance of actually encountering them. So as the characters approach the door, roll a Perception check. If the characters fail and the players become trap paranoid, they take the door of it's hinges and check every inch of it, but it doesn't matter because the perception check is actually for the treasure chest in the next room (by the time the players get there, they're done metagaming and don't connect the two events).
4) Roll a bundle of Perception checks before entering the dungeon. Have the GM record them all, then run through them one by one as the players encounter traps (a trap DC of 20, and rolls of 14, 16, 4, and 21. Tell character 4 he finds a trap). I've used this with Will saves for illusion-heavy dungeons, too.

Bandw2 |

they must declare they're in trap finding mode, they move at half speed , and then you roll behind the scenes before they're even near any traps. their roll is what it is for the duration of the search, and since they do not know their roll, they can;t just stop searching and search again.

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My preference is to try to train the players to know that only certain types of regions are likely to be trapped, and then NEVER break that assumption by "cheating" and throwing a trap at them in an area that doesn't seem like it should be trapped unless there's a chance for them to learn of the presence of unusual traps during the course of the adventure.
Once they DO start looking for traps, I'll generally have the searcher roll once for the entire room. Alternately, and if they have time, I allow a take 20 Perception check in the area, and when doing so take distance modifiers into account. AKA: If there's a trapped chest in a room, I let them look into the room and either make their check if they want a "that round" result, or let them take 2 minutes to get a take 20.
Rolling is, of course, always an option. I generally don't roll secretly because that robs the fun of rolling from the PC, and if they're in a situation where they can re-roll obviously bad rolls, they can just take 20 anyway.

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I like to ask players what their pattern of searching for traps is, and then ask for a number of "Perception (relevant) checks." I always ask for more checks than there are traps in the area.
Each time the PCs come across a trap in an area they said they were checking, I use the next batch of Perception rolls from the list.
I also like to use Perception (relevant) for other searching tasks, like searching a large area for secret doors, or searching for treasure.

Hogeyhead |

There is a clever alternative that i heard of once. At the beginning of the session have everyone roll perception 20 times and tell their result. If you get everyone to focus this should take no more than a minute or two. You record everyone's perception rolls in order on a sheet. Then throughout the course of the session whenever perception would be called for you use a random roll. (roll a d20 for the perception roll number crossing the numbers out each time one is used, until you get one twice, then just go in order). This way the players have rolled perception, there is only one behind the screen gm roll, and one roll could be anything, while four is probably perception. Now while they did roll perception, they also don't know what they got, so you get the best of both worlds, and the game runs smooth. Hopefully.

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I don't agree with the school of thought that a bad roll is moot when a take 20 is possible.
If the searcher rolls a 2, and rechecks it's still only the time investment of 2 searches. 20 searches is a completely different issue when the mid-duration buffs are in play. If I've got a 10 mins per level spell on me, I won't tolerate the rogue taking 20 for searches.

Claxon |

I prefer 3. Though often I get lazy and just go with 2 because it's faster. It's usually obvious if players metagame off the failed roll, and I will call them out for it. Usually, so will the other players.
Although, I assume a passive perception check of taking 10 at all times anyways, well as long as characters would have reason to think an area might be trapped. Inside of a dungeon where they expect to fight or possibly encounter traps they would be looking for traps. And rather than making them say it all the time, I just give it to them.
Rogues with trapfinding get an extra roll to notice it when they come within distance of the trap.

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Dming
1 Perception / 10 foot square.
take 10 certainly
take 20 with 2 minute time slot.
I prefer to have 5-10 rolls for perception per character (not just for traps, so I don't need to slow down or warn players (hey watch out roll perception))
Playing
Slow & cautious - check every 10' square (for traps & valuables)
Normal - check prior to doors, doors, chests, and just inside doors.
Reckless - just check doors, and let other people open them.

Byakko |
One issue with taking 10 is the chances of noticing something is often worse than everyone rolling once.
Say in a party of 5 with modifiers of +2, +4, +4, +7, +8:
If the DC is 20, then no one will detect it while taking 10.
But if everyone rolls once, the chance of at least one person spotting it is actually quite high. (granted, this does change if one person has a significantly higher modifier than everyone else in the group)
It's still good to know the take 10 values, tho, to save time when they'll obviously find something.
Personally, I ask my players how they intend to explore a place beforehand. eg, "Alright guys, sounds like you want to take 20 on any door or suspicious object, a few minutes scanning each new room, and otherwise keep a decent pace in any unremarkable corridor to preserve buff time." Then stick to that unless they want a change or encounter something particularly unusual.
By pre-establishing how the party will proceed, along with a general marching order, players seem less prone to metagame should they happen to roll poorly.

Kolokotroni |
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In general i dont like traps that are not part of an encounter. I think its a mindless hit point tax/busy work for the rogues, and in general slows down the game. Obviously some places it makes sense, vaults, secret doors, anywhere a kobold is, but the prevalence of them in pathfinder/dnd really just reflects a desire for gms to have the 'gotcha' moment on their players. It literally does nothing besides provide that in their current incarnation.
My preference is for traps as encounters, were overcoming/detecting the trap provides an advantage (or lack of disadvantage) in the encounter as opposed to simply being 2 die roll encounters. Something like a mechanism that will drop a gate splitting the party when they are to be attacked from both sides. Dealing with the trap would allow the party to better coordinate/escape, but the trap itself is only a part of the encounter, the environment and the enemies are also part.

Kolokotroni |

It was presented formaly in dungeonscape towards the end, but unfortunately with the edition ending so shortly after, it sort of got lost, and that isnt open content, so it seems paizo hasn't decided to persue the idea. Though Maybe if we ever get an ultimate adventurer it will be in there somewhere.

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Dming
1 Perception / 10 foot square.
take 10 certainly
take 20 with 2 minute time slot.
I prefer to have 5-10 rolls for perception per character (not just for traps, so I don't need to slow down or warn players (hey watch out roll perception))
That's fine for bare, clean stone/masonry. Some things are quicker to search than others. A 10 x 10 section of wall covered by a full bookshelf, for example, is going to take significantly longer to search than 1 move action. Pulling every book down and flipping through the pages is going to take several minutes alone. Add in the time it takes to ensure each book isn't triggered to a booby trap before pulling it off the shelf, as well as searching every crevasse of every surface in the entire bookshelf. Then tapping on every surface you can't get behind, to see if there are hollow spaces behind it. And so on. Depending on what's being searched, it could easily take 10 minutes or more just to perform a single d20 roll, and hours (maybe longer) for a take 20.
Taking 20 for a search doesn't take 2 minutes, it takes at least 2 minutes in a best case scenario. If its something other than a barren surface devoid of any places to hide anything, it's probably going to take much, much, much longer.