Hey guys, im in a bit of a pickle figuring this out so maybe someone with more DM experience could help out. So my question is what would be a good way to make a party of good characters be on friendly terms with someone like a bandit? or just generally evil?
That can strong depend on your Pcs motivations.
I as a player for example, am often about redeeming enemies; so I will act cordially, if they are not vile.
Some other players I game with however prefer to beat them down wordlessly, and turn them into the authorities to be executed.
My advice is to create a personality that your PCS cannot help but be interested in, and keep their evil nature on the downplay. A bandit doesn't have to say: "I robbed an old lady today, and killed her dog." he can say "I do what I can to survive, and keep my friends safe and fed."
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My best advice: don't make the NPC obviously, or ostentatiously, evil.
It's not like evil people wear a special hat or badge. Just present them as people, and if it seems like the thing to do then the party will be friendly with them.
Remember, Robin Hood was a bandit leader. People can have complex motivations for what they do. If need be, give the evil character a "Freudian excuse", some piece of backstory that makes their bad behaviour seem a little more sympathetic or okay.
So, don't have the NPC be a murderous puppy kicker, or burn orphanages (or orphans!) for fun, but present them as three dimensional characters.
That's exactly what I was planning on, like the bandit they are going to encounter were going to knock them out initially (or atleast try to) and she is meant to just be taking care of her "boys" basically the leader is meant to have them do a favor for her in exchange for their freedom, but over that they bond and she will help them out in the future.
I probably should have laid out the npc I had in mind better lol
If done correctly, it can be done.
The most important thing is that the evil PC should have some sort of code that prevents that PC from betraying the party at the drop of a hat. In GURPs this was a "disadvantage" called Thieves' code or some such thing. It pretty much says that you may be a brutal miscreant, yet you wouldn't harm your allies and may even see anyone harming an ally as a personal insult to your honor.
Some examples of how this is accomplished are as follows -
1. Redemption of old friend / relative. Comic book examples are numerous (Professor X and Magneto, etc).
2. Common goal - if someone evil is fighting the same common opponent, then that PC is motivated to work with the group.
3. Redemption - the evil PC actually wants to become a better person, has communicated this with the group, and has skills / abilities useful to the group.
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Indebtedness can play a role in these sorts of relationships. An evil person ultimately does things for their own ends, but those things can be beneficial to others. The bandit in question could help the PCs against another mutual enemy. They end up either owing a favor, or feeling gratitude for the assistance. People tend to be less likely to outright kill or attack someone they've fought beside or had their bacon saved by.
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Great thread so far, Scythia has the right idea.
Make them a bit complex, but also with a decent charisma and easy to get along with. Evil doesn't mean psychopathic, or totally without charm, or even disagreeable. Will the party turn away someone that is on the same side, or with similar interests? Evil doesn't always have to be backing the evil religion, or fascism, or tyranny. They might be rebels against a far greater evil then they are.
Bandits are great compadres for a party. I once played an evil bandit (called Skadi) that really used profession: bandit right to the hilt. Getting information on ambushes, asking and rolling for added info on other bandits and raiders. Need a thief to catch a thief. It worked great.
There are few limits. Even if an evil character has burned down orphanages, killed children or kicked many a puppy, did they have reasons? Are they the same person? How many years ago was this? Are their rationalisations marvellous and they are trying to move on, or become a better person? I had a young war criminal join the party once for protection. The party got to know his backstory and while they were shocked, he was defensive and a bit pleading. He tried to explain what he had gone through, why he did it, and that he didn't want to be that person anymore. The players took him under their wing.
They got him into neutral, made him into a hero and do-gooder, saw off his pursuers, concealed him from authorities and even defended him when a holy warrior of justice teleported in to kill him for his war crimes. One of my favourite parts of dming. Good luck!
Indebtedness can play a role in these sorts of relationships. An evil person ultimately does things for their own ends, but those things can be beneficial to others. The bandit in question could help the PCs against another mutual enemy. They end up either owing a favor, or feeling gratitude for the assistance. People tend to be less likely to outright kill or attack someone they've fought beside or had their bacon saved by.
Yep, another one I saw in game, was a blackguard joining the party because everyone was on the same side in the Molthunian civil war. There is something reliable about a blackguard on your side.
It did lead to a cool showdown of the LG blackguard against a CN Callistrian cleric, and later a duel. The blackguard won by DQ. The Callistrian disqualified themselves (just like a chaotic, lol).
Thanks for the advice! Indebtedness or a common goal would be a good fit, and since the bandit I had in mind is closer to a robin-hood type hopefully our paladin of Sarenrae will see a good reason for friendly relations.
If one specifically has a problem, you can also have it go to duels (not to the death) or the like, where the bandit is stronger than a single pc but weaker than the party. They may earn their party status that way, silencing complaints for a while.
E.g. If one doesn't want the bandit in, the bandit challenges them to an archery contest to prove they should work together.
Dr. Who several times worked with an enemy (even the Master) in a temporary alliance to get something done.
In the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, Hyde is evil(ish), yet is considered a party member. Skinner is a thief, and Mina a vampire. Still a party.
E. E. Doc Smith's Skylark of Space has the hero accept the villain's word for a temporary alliance, and the villain is trustworthy, even if usually opposed to the party.
Basically, if it is clearly in the NPC's interest to help the party, and the party knows this, it can work.
/cevah
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Narcolepsy would be a fun way to do it. Just have the PCs wake up to find a bandit sleeping while attempting to steal an object from the party.
Is a bit of a gamble, as npc is helpless while asleep (though this affords some protection from paladins and cavaliers with morals for defending the helpless). Still, seems like an NPC that would both merit investigation via the party and be pretty easy for them to dismiss his evil ways as comic relief.
They could tie him up, but chances are high that he'll still get to speak with them, so you've made first contact. After that, have the NPC find reasons to stay with the group that leave them morally conflicted to abandon him.
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so let me point out that being evil does not preclud you from being personable. if you like the show supernatural crowley is an excellent example of a lawful evil person that they talk to all the time, they dont exactly like him and they dont always see eye to eye but they get along mostly
Crowley steals every episode he is in.
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Your biggest challenge is making sure that nobody casts detect evil. Especially not a Paladin.
Detect evil has lots of limitations.
1st round of casting, you sense (don't see) the presence of evil within the cone of effect.
2nd round, you sense the number of auras of evil that is present in the cone of effect.
3rd round you pinnpoint the location of the evil auras in the cone effect.
I mention cone effect several times, because you can actually evade the detect evil spell by moving around the detector. They'd sense evil the first round, and then it would just be a lingering aura - they'd be able to pinpoint only where the aura was in relation to the cone scanned. This makes the spell very impractical for people watching, unless the people stay in the same general spot for 3 rounds.
I will also note that evil-aligned creatures do not inherently get detected. This is a huge misnomer. Evil creatures is define in the spell as "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." This means that a bandit that isn't presently having evil thoughts/intentions will not be detected (evil undead or evil outsider).
In addition, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks the effect. So, in example, an evil outsider with a burrow speed that maintains a 3ft of dirt distance, will never be detected via this spell.
This is all found here: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/detectEvil.html
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@Rhaddrain:
Best way I can think of, is making sure the Evil NPCs don't act like A**holes. It is true that some players have evil-phobia, but in my experience, players would rather be buddies with the potentially evil sellsword/thieves guild enforcer, who's willing to share a beer and a story, over a game of darts, than they wanna be buddies with Sir Stickintush, chaste, preachy paladin do-gooder.
-Nearyn
All good advice worth considering whenever I am going to make situations in which conflicting alignments co-exist. Thanks for the insight masters of rules and creativity.
Even when an npc is evil like the sellsword Nearyn talked about that doesn't mean that he's an A-hole, it could just mean he's generally greedy or cares about himself more than others. So, it's not like a good person wouldn't ally a technically "evil" sellsword.
Hey guys, im in a bit of a pickle figuring this out so maybe someone with more DM experience could help out. So my question is what would be a good way to make a party of good characters be on friendly terms with someone like a bandit? or just generally evil?
One can smile and still be a villain.
Just make him likeable, that's all. As long as the PCs aren't on the receiving end of his evil, they have no reason to assume he even IS evil.
Unless you have a Smite-O-Matic paladin in the party, then you have no chance.
I'd worry about the capture attempt the most. Many players have no concept of escalation of force, or have an emotional reaction to the thought of being made helpless, so the sad saps with saps might get them and their band slaughtered mercilessly.
Also, make sure this person is not responsible for any atrocities that the party has seen or seen people affected by.
I like the idea of tying them into one or more PC back stories, so the moment of recognition is an excuse to stop combat, as he berates his people to stop non-productively dying and let his friends through. Few things are as frustratingly disarming as someone who assumes friendship and acts like one (friendly, not stalker obsession).
Be flexible on who they are, in case the party executes the obvious leader before they can say anything or be recognized. That way some other survivor can thank them for the promotion, and you're not derailed.
Assuming you're looking for friendship and not just party compliance, I think the party would be more receptive if they are same or higher level as these bandits. Higher level NPCs tend to be resented and/or seen as a challenge to be overcome. Lower level NPCs are more likely to be adopted like a pet, or ignored..
