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So, this is mostly just me thinking out loud, so don't take this as too much. And it is going to be a little scattered between a few ideas, so I apologize for that. But I'm just going to unleash this on you...
There is a thread on BGG today that, at least in part, talks about trying to get more out of an adventure path by reusing the cards or adding on an additional adventure. And that isn't the first thread to talk about that. Obviously, we sort of get that with Skull and Shackles, since even if you don't play by the Organized Play rules, you can essentially use the OP PDFs and run a second adventure path with the S&S cards. But stay with me here, because I don't want to talk about whether or not Paizo should release more expansions for RotR or the structure of the products or anything like that.
So, one thing that is often mentioned is that fan made adventures can be done. The rulebook itself even mentions it and this would hardly be a post by me without reference to the rulebook. So here is said obligatory reference:
If you’re playing an Adventure Path and you successfully complete all of the adventures, you earn the reward on the Adventure Path card. At this point, you can build your own adventures using the cards you have, or you can create new characters and start over.
Anyway, all this got me thinking about this community collaboration idea.
And then I thought of Wayfinder. Which, if you don't go and grab every free download Paizo offers in your quest to learn as much about the Pathfinder world as you can, you might not know is a fan magazine created by Paizo Fans United. From what I can tell, members of the RPG community create stories, RPG items and what not, and that sort of thing.
So, my questions are thus (including who I'm directing them to):
Community:
1. Are we interested in making something like Wayfinder (or maybe even become part of Wayfinder if they'd have us) for PACG? Basically band together and make a community adventure path that used RotR or S&S or both. (And if not an adventure path, maybe an adventure or just some scenarios.)
2. If so, what are we willing to do? If we decided to try a fan adventure or adventure path, we would probably need an editor or some decision makers to coordinate who did what and to help create a story to tie things together. Anyone got some experience with that sort of thing that might be interested?
3. What should these look like? (Maybe a bit premature to discuss I know, but...) I'm thinking that to limit cost for people printing them we shouldn't really be doing much more than the necessities like story cards (adventure path, adventure, scenario), some locations (but not all new locations), villains, henchmen, and maybe loot. I'd suggest putting a cap on how many cards a scenario or adventure would require someone to print. (I'm thinking big here so see the questions about printing below.) Maybe like 20 cards for an adventure (1 Adventure Card, 5 Villains, and 14 cards to spread among locations, henchmen and loot.) The rest would be made up of RotR or S&S cards. (We could say on the adventure/adventure path which base sets and adventure decks were required.)
Paizo:
1. What are the limits of what we can do with the community use card templates? I'm assuming we can freely share them. Is there any chance you'd want to set up a relationship with DriveThruCards allowing us to somehow let people take a community made set of cards and have them printed and delivered? Maybe even a way for them to be listed on DriveThruCards? Or something that they could get the free download from Paizo's site, then have them printed by DriveThruCards?
2. Any chance of expanding the RPG Superstar to include some PACG stuff? (This is sort of off topic but just popped into my head since I saw ryric post something and I think of RPG Superstar every time I read one of his posts.)
Paizo Fans United:
I'm not sure you are reading this, and to some extent it might be best to figure out the answers to the other questions before asking this question, but...
1. Are you interested in having some kind of PACG content in Wayfinder?
Feel free to discuss what you think of any of these ideas. They aren't at all anywhere near fully formed. Just sort of something that I think would be awesome to see. And I'm not in any way volunteering for any of it myself or asking to lead any of it or anything like that. I'm not sure I'd have the time. So I guess I'm more just saying "Wouldn't this be cool?"
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I wonder about some this myself.
My friends and I are RPGers. We've never been strong users of modules nor following Adventure Paths. We have used some of the Adventure Path source material in our adventures. (However, we are running Kingmaker right now as a trial.) We like throwing in our own bits in the adventures. So creating new material is something we're interested in.
We've started looking at old D&D modules and modules like We Be Goblins as Adventures and Adventure Paths. And translating them into PACG material.
But what is legal to share and what isn't. Images and text and even the material in modules?
I like your ideas so far. I'd love to see the templates expanded a bit to include the layers so it's a little bit easier to create cards.
And if we want to pass our "projects" back to Paizo for approval, what will happen? Especially new material versus current RPG translated material.
PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
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An interesting proposal....
I'm honestly not sure if the PACG would fall under the CUP, though. I know for sure that PFS scenarios do not, because it is an organized play experience, so everything needs to be OFFICIAL. Wayfinder will never be able to offer PFS material.
The same would apply for the card game organized play.
However, if we are talking about home games/personal use not involved in official society play, and IF Paizo would deem this accepted use under the CUP, then I'd be interested in offering that in future issues of Wayfinder.
I'd suggest avoid creating NEW cards, and try to use ONLY the existing cards in the decks, but in new ways. Honestly, the creation of new PACG cards is likely NOT going to fly with CUP.
Plus, it would be a lot of work to design new cards, and would require additional page space within Wayfinder that we just could not spare. I assume 2-4 pages for new cards (front and back, 9 cards per sheet...that's 18 cards), and an additional 2 pages (1500 words) for the adventure description...or would it be 3000 words (4 pages)? And then you'd need to get several artists on board to do the art for the 18 cards. And a graphic designer to bring it all together. And development to make sure the new cards aren't too unbalancing for the game.
So, creating all new cards would involve too much work for volunteers and Wayfinder to undertake. However, an article detailing how to combine existed cards from across the adventure sets to create a NEW adventure....that's a Wayfinder thing.
Again, though....Paizo's blessing needed.
Hey Timituis, thanks for dropping in. I didn't expect anyone from Wayfinder to necessarily see this, especially that quickly.
Yeah, I'm not talking about scenarios for society/guild play. Just extra scenarios for people to play in their home games.
I'm nowhere near as versed as I'm sure you are in the CUP, but there are card templates available in Community Use Package. Is that sufficient enough to take care of some of your concerns? I'm not at all sure what is involved in being allowed to produce something in the vein of Wayfinder, so I honestly have no idea. And WoodManZX has actually taken them and designed a "Magic Set Editor" template that makes creating new cards a snap.
As for the cards, I could maybe envision something like just having the the description of the adventure and maybe just a card or two as a preview, then a link/qr code to download all the cards from . Does that kind of thing seem reasonable? Especially assuming the templates allow making the cards an easy matter.
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To illustrate how quickly a card can be made, I just made one of you. There is no magazine trait in the game, or I would hve worked it in some how. And granted, your avatar image isn't a great resolution, but it works as a sample. The time between my posts was 13 minutes. I managed to go get my other laptop, power it up, save your image. Create a new card, add the traits, name, check, and powers. Save it as a JPG, upload it to dropbox and talk to my 3 year old about trains in that time.
No idea if that would be good enough or not, but wanted to show you what was possible at this point.
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And I'm not talking guild/organized play either.
My friend and I were talking this week about translating White Plume Mountain (classic D&D module) and I brought up We Be Goblins with the cast of pregens there. But once we do the work, what are we able to do? Where are we able to share this? Would Paizo be interested in our interpretation?
As far as new cards, I think most of us would try to utilize as much of the base sets and adventure decks as possible. Creating new locations, adventure cards and villains/henchmen to fit the scenarios. But creating monsters and barriers and weapons would be a lot of work.
Are we talking about adventures for use with characters who have completed the RotR adventure path, or are we talking about adventures for which you would start afresh with new characters?
The two are obviously very different. I think it would be more challenging to create content for post-RotR characters, but many players would welcome it.
Well, I'm king of talking about anything, depending on the medium. Getting something in Wayfinder, we are probably talking an adventure at most.
But that is kind of what I'm looking to brainstorm on. If we wanted to do a real community effort, how could we organize and release them?
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PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
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You know, looking at Ron's postings of scenarios....if Paizo is OK with this, I would be completely OK with a 2 page article of 4-5 adventures/scenarios using PACG resources. For art for the article, we could include maybe 2 or 3 new cards (new villains, probably).
I'd sort of treat this like the SideTrek Seeds article type, 350 words or less. People could submit them, and we'd compile the best ones into 1 article.
If we add this as an additional article type for #13, folks will need to submit their scenarios by Dec 31 still....
And they would definitely need to be Ustalav themed....
Ok. So for those of us that aren't up on the world of Pathfinder, what is Ustalav themed?
Awesome. Thanks.
I'd imagine the Carrion Crown Players Guide would be a decent free primer, as well as the info in the PathfinderWiki.
And for those interested, info about submissions can be found here.
I, personally, am absolutely into the idea of collaborating with others to make an adventure or adventure path. Definitely sign me up! I don't know much about CUP's or Golarion, but I'm pretty good at design and writing.
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Regarding Ustalav, for $10 (through tomorrow) there's the campaign setting book Rule of Fear which is a pretty good introduction for the price.
And, by the way, I think a community project is a great idea.
If you're looking for a place to host Paizo related CUP/OGL stuff, I run pfsprep.com A website dedicated to hosting useful materials for PFS scenarios.
I am happy to add an ACG forum if that's at all helpful.
So, I'm working on submitting something for Wayfinder, but I'm struggling with how to give it a gothic horror feel, partially because I'm not 100% sure what a gothic horror feel is. Anyone care to enlighten me or suggest some cards from RotR or S&S that would be good examples?
Thanks.
Great. Thanks!
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Gothic Horror would be anything like the classic horror films: Frankenstein, the werewolf, Dracula,...
So you could make scenarios based on those types of monsters. Villains/Henchmen which come to mind would be Aron Ivy, the Skinsaw Man, The Scarecrow Golem...
And locations would be creepy places like tombs, castles, haunted mansions...
Hawk, I'd be glad to proofread/brainstorm anything if you want to PM me.
Chief Technical Officer
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The Community Use Policy does indeed apply to the card game. Note that it's called the Paizo Inc. Community Use Policy, not the Pathfinder RPG Community Use Policy, and it contains very little product-specific language (apart from telling you you can't use blog images from Planet Stories or Pathfinder Comics).
It specifically tells you the limitations on how you may use content from the Community Use Package, which includes the card templates, the character sheets and even high-quality images of the iconic characters. (It currently does not contain especially useful images of the 3 non-iconic characters from each Class Deck, but that should change soon.)
As long as your plans comply with the CUP, you're good to go.
I will note that while the CUP lets you use characters and locations from most of our products, it only allows people doing campaign journals or play-by-posts to use storylines from those products. This means that you're not allowed to adapt a storyline that we've published (so you can't do, say, the Carrion Crown adventure path), but you are allowed to make up your own stories (so you *could* come up with a parallel storyline using characters and locations from Skull & Shackles, or you could come up with new adventures extending the story of Rise of the Runelords).
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I am so in for this. I'm always up for more content for the PACG. I think we could make our own quarterly fanzine though, and not have to follow the theme of Wayfinder each time, especially since we only have cards available so far to use from RotRL and SnS. There's a lot that could be done in a custom Adventure Path.
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...and done! I've thrown together a website to host this. It's the Shield of Rannick adventure path, and it's hosted at welbybumpus.com. (Right now, it's the only product there, but it's nice for me to have a place I can put more!)
Wow! Looking very good! I agree with you that with so many cards it is possible to create many more adventures. And you showed us how it is done. Great!
I bet you have the adventure and the events in your mind and what you wrote down to the PDF is only a fraction of the world that you are seeing within.
I wonder why Paizo left the fluff in Pathfinder ACG so thin, even though they have hundreds and hundreds of pages of material for the Rise of the Runelords...
Byron Campbell and Neil Edmonds made an excellent Adventure Guide for Rise of the Runelords – Base Set to add more story in the game.->
https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/106306/
Hopefully someone from Paizo reads this and they will add a story booklet to the new Wrath of the Righteous - Base Set. The cost of the component (it could be like the rulebook) is low compared to the value what it would give enlivening the experience of the players!
So Ron, I encourage you not to follow the example Paizo has given us in the Rise of the Runelords – Base Set (I have not played the Skull 'n Shackles) and add a bit more fluff to your great looking adventure path. If it can be done with little effort, if you already have the story in your head, why not to add a bit more text to Adventure and scenario explanations?
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One thing that I liked about my layout was the ability to add more story than Paizo was able to use on their cards--I didn't have their space limitation. I was shooting for something a little tighter, word-wise, than their OP scenarios (if you want more story, I really recommend checking out those).
I really did not notice those OP scenarios before, but that's because I am allergic to Pirates (and Zombies) and I am staying away from Skulls and Shackles because of that. Hopefully they'll have scenarios like that released with Wrath of the Righteous after it is released.
And oh... I would like to have more story, especially when there is no space limitations like in cards. Maybe a bit, just a bit more story in your next Adventure Path then. ;)
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One thing that I liked about my layout was the ability to add more story than Paizo was able to use on their cards--I didn't have their space limitation. I was shooting for something a little tighter, word-wise, than their OP scenarios (if you want more story, I really recommend checking out those).I really did not notice those OP scenarios before, but that's because I am allergic to Pirates (and Zombies) and I am staying away from Skulls and Shackles because of that. Hopefully they'll have scenarios like that released with Wrath of the Righteous after it is released.
And oh... I would like to have more story, especially when there is no space limitations like in cards. Maybe a bit, just a bit more story in your next Adventure Path then. ;)
It's pretty much been confirmed that you will have something very similar for Wrath. Skull & Shackles OP was designed to be a test season, with the first real season being for WotR.
I am reworking my first adventure, An Heir to Hell's Throne, and the 2nd adventure in that path is in the works, The Oracle of Mediogalti.
I had a death in the family recently, so I've not been able to commit much time to hobbies, nor have I had much energy for that matter. Been a rough year, but this game has been a very needed and fun distraction.
This is one of the best threads on this subject I have read. I love working on new content and storylines for PACG and have friends who are very eager to play what I've been doing. I've also been permitted to use a lot of artwork from some very talented illustrators over on deviantart.
It really isn't that big of a deal to make custom cards as Hawkmoon said. I am happy this stuff is exciting to other people as well.
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PaizoCon Founder, Wayfinder Editor-in-Chief
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The Community Use Policy does indeed apply to the card game. Note that it's called the Paizo Inc. Community Use Policy, not the Pathfinder RPG Community Use Policy, and it contains very little product-specific language (apart from telling you you can't use blog images from Planet Stories or Pathfinder Comics).
It specifically tells you the limitations on how you may use content from the Community Use Package, which includes the card templates, the character sheets and even high-quality images of the iconic characters. (It currently does not contain especially useful images of the 3 non-iconic characters from each Class Deck, but that should change soon.)
As long as your plans comply with the CUP, you're good to go.
I will note that while the CUP lets you use characters and locations from most of our products, it only allows people doing campaign journals or play-by-posts to use storylines from those products. This means that you're not allowed to adapt a storyline that we've published (so you can't do, say, the Carrion Crown adventure path), but you are allowed to make up your own stories (so you *could* come up with a parallel storyline using characters and locations from Skull & Shackles, or you could come up with new adventures extending the story of Rise of the Runelords).
Thanks for the clarification, Vic. Ron had submitted a scenario using PACG resources for an article in Wayfinder, and I was going to ask you about it. Looks like its permissible.
Something that I wish the Community Use Policy would allow is a searchable card database. Being able to browse the cards digitally either via the web or an app would be amazing.
I used to browse the sets of MTG a lot to help me cross check cards and see potential combos so I can see how a database would be cool especially when you don't have the cards in front of you and forget what they say. Or when you are missing cards and have to know what is written on them to proxy them.
But my concern is doing so will most likely produce spoilers and it's been really great being clueless as to what's up ahead.
Having to read the Villain cards, for example, will give you an idea off the bat how to defeat them. But it should add more suspense If you have no clue until you 1st encounter them.
The card lists are already somewhat of a giveaway with just the card names, but its good to have those list to cross check if you are missing something or not.
So, I'm not sure card database is a good idea overall.
I will note that while the CUP lets you use characters and locations from most of our products, it only allows people doing campaign journals or play-by-posts to use storylines from those products. This means that you're not allowed to adapt a storyline that we've published (so you can't do, say, the Carrion Crown adventure path), but you are allowed to make up your own stories (so you *could* come up with a parallel storyline using characters and locations from Skull & Shackles, or you could come up with new adventures extending the story of Rise of the Runelords).
Sorry for all those questions that will follow, but could you please clarify this some more for me? You're clearly refering to this part of the CUP:
You may descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games.
I'm having trouble where you draw the line between a protected storyline and background information about the setting that can freely be used, if at all.
I understand that this is primarily done so people don't just republish paizos intellectual property for free under the guise of the licence, but how much background lore can you actually use?Your example of extending the story of RotR sounds like it could be ok to refer to it, and the FAQ lists that its ok to write fanfiction, which would imho hardly be doable without refering to any events on golarion. The adventure guides for the PACG also refer to a lot of things you can find on wikis that happened in the setting, and they seem to be ok as well.
For example, I bought the Worldwound Campaign setting, and there is a small description about the 4th Crusade contained. The same information can more or less be found in the pathfinder wiki, which looks neither like a campaign journal or play by post to me. Did the wiki screw up, or is that event fair game? I know that wikis are allowed as per FAQ, but I don't see how this works with the part of the licence I quoted.
In particular, could I publish my interpretation of the events leading to the 4th crusade, or does that fall under the protected part? I'd be filling in the gaps of something that has not explicitly been described by paizo, at least as far as I'm aware.
Again, I'm sorry for all these questions, but I'd like to do a proper, mostly lore authentic supplement that does the setting justice rather than combining things randomly to evade any licence issues.
In particular, could I publish my interpretation of the events leading to the 4th crusade, or does that fall under the protected part? I'd be filling in the gaps of something that has not explicitly been described by paizo, at least as far as I'm aware.
I'm not Vic, but that would be allowed under the CUP by my reading. There's also a chance that the Ask James Jacobs thread also has additional information about the topics you'd like to write about beyond what information is printed in the books. JJ's replies aren't canonical, but he has a great deal of insight into Golarion.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Sorry for all those questions that will follow, but could you please clarify this some more for me? You're clearly refering to this part of the CUP:
You may descriptively reference dialogue, plots, storylines, language, and incidents from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products in campaign journals and play-by-post or play-by-email games.
Actually, I'm not. The part you quoted is that part that lets campaign journals and the like retell our stories. The part I was talking about is the permission that applies to things that are *not* campaign journals:
You may descriptively reference trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), locations and characters from products listed in Section 1 of our Community Use Approved Product List at paizo.com/communityuse/products, provided it is clear that these are our marks.
Since the CUP is applicable to a very broad range of things, its language is necessarily non-specific. For example, you mentioned fan fiction. The CUP lets you use characters and places from Rise of the Runelords, but it doesn't let you just adapt our story—you need to come up with your own.
You're right that the defining line can seem a bit fuzzy—you probably can't write much about Father Zantus without mentioning the goblin attack on Sandpoint Cathedral during the Swallowtail Festival. But mentioning that as part of the character's background is different from telling the *story* of the attack—it's all about the focus.
Thanks for the answers, skizzers and Vic!
I'll take your remark about the focus of bringing up lore as a guideline then, Vic. That seems to imply to me that retelling the events leading to the 4th crusade is off-limits, so I'll change some things accordingly. That's unfortunate, but I'm glad I can work more confidently on the project now, so thanks again for the clarification.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Thanks for the answers, skizzers and Vic!
I'll take your remark about the focus of bringing up lore as a guideline then, Vic. That seems to imply to me that retelling the events leading to the 4th crusade is off-limits, so I'll change some things accordingly. That's unfortunate, but I'm glad I can work more confidently on the project now, so thanks again for the clarification.
Yeah, I would think re-telling those events wouldn't fit inside the CUP, but you could make significant enough changes to those events to separate it, I would think, if that part of the story is fairly essential to your followup storyline.
Thanks, thats what I thougt as well. I'll just have them attack another wardstone on the border some years later without Khorramzadeh. It doesn't have to be Kenabres, I just want the party to get their hands on a wardstone fragment prior to what happens in WotR.
Would've been cool to tie it more to the official story, but it'll make sense without it as well.