Hello Everyone,
Intro:
First about myself (in relation to Pathfinder). I have been interested in DnD since AD&D 2nd edition but I have not been able to play other than PC games. Now that I am done with school I am starting to get some more free time and I would like to spend some of it with my family telling amazing stores (no, not the TV series).
Wow is Pathfinder a deep (and I mean DEEP) game. It can be a bit daunting. I guess I could just roll up core class toons and run with it but I can't quite get myself to do that. I have done a good bit of research and would like some of your thoughts on some issues I am having. I want them to shine, so there will be some crunch, but I am not going for the max of the max build for each character. They will get a few extra perks, but I figure their lack of strategy and tactics will even the playing field out a bit. =)
Story:
On a side note, we have ran though the Basic Box 5 or so times to get them (and me) familiar with many of the rules. Right now I will be running my 2nd grader, 3rd grader, and wife (2 toons) though Crypt of the Everflame, then Masks of the Living God, and then City of Golden Death for their first real foray into Pathfinder. They will only get to level 6, 7, or 8 and then retire. (The kids want to play a Druid and Summoner in Dragon's Demand next. I thought I would keep things simple for their first big adventure.) No multiclassing this time.
Relevant House Rules:
Wand of Many Mini Things
--1hp heal unlimited charges (keep action up, camping down)
--As they level the item will grow with little (mini) magic abilities
Players:
Oracle (2nd grader)
--Battle, STR, Bardiche, Reach, Enlarge
Rogue (3rd grader)
--Brute, STR, TWF, Orc Double Axe, Bite
Pally (wife main)
--TWF, CHA, Scimitar/Spiked Shield, Smite/day (Normal + CHA)
Sorcerer (wife alt)
--Background buffing build (wow they are intimidating to build)
Character Needing Help (please)
????? Sorcerer
Role:
She wants the Sorcerer to be a buffer to make the other three members of the party shine. She may also do some battlefield control, but that is not her main goal. This is probably sub-optimal but will let the other characters have tons of fun (especially the kids). My wife enjoys Pathfinder so far but just wants to get right to it and play so I want to keep things simple(ish). I am interested in Summon Monster but I am concerned that the summons may be too weak and/or that they will slow down gameplay too much.
Build:
?????? Sorcerer
Abilities:
STR: ?
DEX: ?
CON: ?
INT: ?
WIS: ?
CHA: ?
Traits:
?
?
Attribute Plan:
4: ?
8: ?
Feet Plan:
1: ?
2: -na-
3: ?
4: -na-
5: ?
6: -na-
7: ?
8: -na-
Sorcerer Plan:
1: ?
2: ?
3: ?
4: ?
5: ?
6: ?
7: ?
8: ?
Spells:
Buffing spells (no idea)
Gear:
Armour: ?
Weapon: ?
HP: ?
AC: ?
Questions:
Q1: Wow, I started to look but man there are so many combinations. I have yet to run into a good low level Sorcerer buffing guide (1-8). I will keep looking. Can anyone point me in the right direction other than the "Advice | Guide to Class Guides" thread?
Q2: Any input on using Summon Monster for battle field control?
Q3: If Summoned Monster stats are prepared ahead of time on 5"x7" cards does that mitigate most of the slowdown?
Q4: Any other must have buff's like Enlarge Person as it has both crunch and fluff for the kids?
Thanks for any and all input!
Braxon
PS. If you see something against the rules and it is not called out as a house rule, please let me know.
IMO summon monster is sort of okayish, but not an automatic choice as you need to take the newer versions to keep up, and sorcerers don't get all that many spells known. The low duration makes it unappealing on low levels. I'd leave it to classes that don't have to expend precious spell slots on it, to be honest. Now, Planar Binding, when you get it, is quite interesting... although these are more ritual allies and less disposable minions (though a part of me thinks this could be better from an educational standpoint).I'd say pick up one or two Summon Monsters spells or emulate them with Shadow Conjuration when you get the right level, unless you really want to go into that schtick.
Generally I'd agree with Da G8keepah's spell ideas on level one, though I'd think about putting at least one damage spell if she doesn't get something from her bloodline when the enemies are resistant to control. Plinking at skeletons with a light crossbow because none of your spells do anything to them is not so fun. Enlarge is an awesome buff and I'd even suggest taking it at level 1, 2 at the latest if you don't get it via the bloodline. The LoL fan in me insists I ask that she shout "Biggify!" or "Tremendo!" when casting it and point at the object, fun will be had :)
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Buffing..get her a half elf sorcerer with the orc bloodline.
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
For lvs 1-4, put fcb into elf favored class for more uses of that goodness. Will make all melee dudes drool. After lv 4 then put fcb bonus into spells known (before lv 4 all you get are cantrips). If possible get all melees to take opportunistic gambler trait so the buff lasts 1d4 rounds instead.
buff spells: enlarge person, bulls strength (before they get their str belts), haste.
fun spells: glitterdust. Oooh that guy is blind and denied dex. Sneak attack fodder for the rogue!
sorcerers are also good intimidators so she can make monsters shaken by Intimidating them.
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There's a lot of fun bloodlines out there. Do any of them appeal to her, flavor-wise? Given that this is your wife's alternative character, there is a very good chance that a buffer sorc will be forgotten except when needed in battle, unless you guys work together to make it memorable.
While most people would argue for the arcane and sylvan bloodlines as being the strongest, I kind of want to know if any appeal to your wife just for fluff's sake. Would she want the sorcerer to be sneaky -- umbral or rakshasha line? Would she want it to be a quasi-bard? Maestro. Think about what sort of personality you want for this character, and then select a fun bloodline to match.
There is an excellent guide to sorcerer bloodlines called Magic in the Blood that reviews all the bloodlines out there.
While I like touch of rage from the Orc bloodline, she could instead take Flagbearer feat from Inner Sea World Guide -- it's an always on bless that is a plus to damage and attack for the entire party. Sure, it requires holding a silly flag in one hand... But she would still be able to cast spells.
I play a buffer / battlefield control sorcerer, and agree with most of DaG8Keepah's list of spells for first level. Although there are a few spells outside the core list that might be worth looking at, those are excellent choices. Try to aim for spells that go for different saves. So if you have grease (dex save) also go for silent image or color spray (will saves.)
I would go for either Sleep or Color Spray at first level, and plan on trading it out at level 4. Both spells lose potency after 1st level.
I also suggest that your wife play a human, half-orc or half-elf for the human favored class bonus of more spells known as a sorcerer. The best thing you can do for a sorcerer is get them a bigger spell list to play with.
Finally, don't forget cantrips. The message spell and prestidigitation have endless uses. The message spell will be great for letting your rogue be a rogue and still stay in touch with the group. Mage hand and ghost sound are tons of fun, and having an attack cantrip can also be useful too.
I hope that this helps.
Hmm
You mention the guide to class guides. Honestly, there isn't likely to be any information that we can give here that isn't touched on in those guides without some more direction for what your wife wants to do with the character.
Summoning is a great option but Sorcerer is one of the worst classes to do it with. They do not get standard action summons like other classes can. Cleric or Druid can easily do this with Archetypes or feats. This is doubly bad for Sorcerer as when they apply metamatic feats to spells it makes them full round actions so even their non-summoning spells that are metamagiced are going to be full round actions. While I do not normally suggest it if you want a summoning based character the most direct route is summoner.
Two things I would warn you away from summoner, though. First, while they are good at battlefield control they do not serve the buffing role you are referring to. Second, you said you wanted to keep it simple(ish) for her. Summoners are far from it. There are things you can do to make it easier (think like flash cards with stats for frequent selections for summons on them) but it is still one of the most complex classes in the game.
IMO, if you are looking for a summoning buffing character I would strongly suggest taking a look at the Evangelist Cleric Archetype. It has everything you are looking for. ...but I wouldn't suggest a summoner.
If you are looking for a background buffer then a couple of good options would be a Bard or perhaps check out the new class Skald. There are a lot of straight forward buffing options with both.
One other thing to mention: If you are using your spells mostly as buffs rather than things that require your opponent to make a save then you typically do not need a stellar casting stat. High casting stat is usually more important for spell saves than for bonus spells.
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Lune --
This may be one of the few times I disagree with you. Summoners aren't bad as buffers. The main problem with them is that they have fewer spells than sorcerers, wizards and arcanists. However, they can do grease, enlarge person and haste. And they are hands down the best summoners in the game.
However I do agree with you that they are way too complicated to play for a beginner, and they tend to steal the show. Not something that one wants for a background character.
The evangelist cleric would be an excellent option for both buffs and summons, provided that you go for one of an Lawful Good or Chaotic Good deity so that you can take better advantage of Sacred Summons. However, they don't have access to the full arcane spell list. Still, well worth looking at as an option for a support buffer.
Another option -- if the original poster wants standard summoning -- is the Arcanist Occultist archetype. The Occultist gets standard action summons for all summoned creatures, has access to the full wizard spell list, and aren't that difficult to play. They can change up their spell lists more easily than sorcerers but they can also cast more spontaneously than wizards. They're really a great wizard training ground.
(I still prefer playing sorcerers, but that is just because I love all the weird bloodlines and charisma-based casting....)
Hmm
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BTW, Zenith Games has a Comprehensive Guide to the Pathfinder Guides that is updated more often than the Guide to Guides in this forum. While there isn't specifically a guide to buffer sorcerers (there is a guide to buffer bards), many of the sorcerer guides do touch on spell choices.
I hope all this helps. I realize that we haven't narrowed your options, but widened them. So... Help us narrow them again.
Can you get your wife on here to talk about what she likes to do as a player, and what she imagines her character's personality to be? In my head, I keep calling the character, "Buffy," because that is all we know about her/him. I'd like to hear more about how your wife envisions the character so that we can help her narrow down the list of options.
Hmm
I don't think we disagree. I was saying that a class (not necessarily a Summoner itself) that was dedicated to summoning isn't typically going to make a great buffer. I agree that Summoners do a passable job of that though it isn't their primary role. It is actually debatable whether Summoners are the best summoners in the game. There are several threads talking about it. Personally, I believe that a Samsaran Wizard is the best summoner.
It seems we agree on the complication being an issue for what the OP is wanting, though. We also agree that Evangelist would be good. Good call on Arcanist Occultist as well.
I think we still agree on most things. And you still have an attractive avatar. ;)
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Oh. Forgot 2 more buffs. Blur and Heroism!
Yes, evangelists make far better buffbots then sorcs do, but when people ask for help, I try to stay true to their original request as much as possible, as they probably have reasons for making those requests.
If a person gives a general purpose, then I will offer alternate classes. An evangelist would cover divine spells which would overlap some with oracles.
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Just a Mort --
You're correct. Given that the party already has a paladin and an oracle, an arcane spell caster would offer more diversity. I probably should have also stayed more true to the original request.
While I like as many options as possible to consider, I recognize that sometimes I provide too many options.
Lune --
No worries... I like disagreeing on some things. It makes the conversation more interesting. You are aware that behind my lovely avatar I could be a snaggle-toothed leper with crossed eyes and a harelip? Ooh, and tentacle arms. (Makes it kind of hard to type with the tentacle arms. I just have the whack the keyboard randomly until I get the right sequences.)
Braxon --
How are you determining attributes for your game? Are you using a point buy system, or rolling randomly? Generally speaking, a sorcerer will want to have Charisma fairly high. I also like to have high dex, a decent con, and a positive int because those 2 skill points a level are painful.
I am serious about inviting your wife on here if she's willing to post. I'd love to hear what personality she envisions for the character so that we can make more targeted suggestions.
Hmm
Hmm,
Just got home from work, need to eat, clean up, help kids with homework and then I can't wait to get reading all of these great posts.
I have invited my wife to read and comment. We shall see.
Braxon
... <neat stuff> ...
Wow, nice. Lots of neat stuff I will have to take some time and digest it all. That will give me a good place to start.
Thanks so much,
Braxon
IMO summon monster is sort of okayish, but not an automatic choice as you need to take the newer versions to keep up, and sorcerers don't get all that many spells known. The low duration makes it unappealing on low levels. I'd leave it to classes that don't have to expend precious spell slots on it, to be honest. Now, Planar Binding, when you get it, is quite interesting... although these are more ritual allies and less disposable minions (though a part of me thinks this could be better from an educational standpoint).I'd say pick up one or two Summon Monsters spells or emulate them with Shadow Conjuration when you get the right level, unless you really want to go into that schtick.
Check. She will probably keep away from Summon Monster for now. Much of what you just said was also over my head (I could always do more research). =)
Generally I'd agree with Da G8keepah's spell ideas on level one, though I'd think about putting at least one damage spell if she doesn't get something from her bloodline when the enemies are resistant to control. Plinking at skeletons with a light crossbow because none of your spells do anything to them is not so fun. Enlarge is an awesome buff and I'd even suggest taking it at level 1, 2 at the latest if you don't get it via the bloodline. The LoL fan in me insists I ask that she shout "Biggify!" or "Tremendo!" when casting it and point at the object, fun will be had :)
I will have to tell her and the Oracle about "Biggify!" and "Tremendo!". That is just too fun of a mental picture! =)
Thanks,
Braxon
Buffing..get her a half elf sorcerer with the orc bloodline.
Touch of Rage (Sp): At 1st level, you can touch a creature as a standard action, giving it a morale bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saving throws equal to 1/2 your sorcerer level (minimum 1) for 1 round. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
For lvs 1-4, put fcb into elf favored class for more uses of that goodness. Will make all melee dudes drool. After lv 4 then put fcb bonus into spells known (before lv 4 all you get are cantrips). If possible get all melees to take opportunistic gambler trait so the buff lasts 1d4 rounds instead.
Man Just a Mort, good stuff again! Barbarian Rage without the fatigue taht you can cast on others! NICE. Bummer it is only 1 round, but then again I could see if I can fit in Opportunistic Gambler for the win.
I see the Rogue being out of touch range often. Is there any way to turn touch spells into range spells in Pathfinder?
buff spells: enlarge person, bulls strength (before they get their str belts), haste.
fun spells: glitterdust. Oooh that guy is blind and denied dex. Sneak attack fodder for the rogue!
I have heard of Glitterdust, that sound like very nice for the Rogue.
sorcerers are also good intimidators so she can make monsters shaken by Intimidating them.
Oh, what to do when not casting spells. That sounds better than my Pally spending a round Antagonizing instead of swinging a sword/shield. More research for me. =)
I am feeling much less intimidated with the Sorcerer build. Thanks so much guys!
Nice Stuff,
Braxon
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Summon monster II is more useful than Summon Monster I, especially once you can pick it up at 4th or 5th level and summon elementals. I actually use it quite a bit out of combat to have earth elementals scout ahead for me (they glide right through rock.) Of course, to take full advantage of out of combat uses, you have to have some elemental languages.
As far as attack spells, I'm a fan of the cantrip acid splash wihen used with an acid flask focus. If you can drop a magic missle wand, the combination of the two will give your wife something to do in combat through the first few painful levels of being a sorcerer.
Later on she might be interested in the spell Snowball. It is one of my favorites. It packs a wallop at 5th level (where it tops out at five d6 of damage) and is not affected by spell resistance. But the best part is the save -- those hit have to make a fortitude save to avoid being staggered. So your bad guy takes the full five dice of damage, and if he fails the fort save, he can only move or make a single attack. This has been really helpful against creatures with multiple attacks who would otherwise rend fellow party members.
Hmm
There's a lot of fun bloodlines out there. Do any of them appeal to her, flavor-wise? Given that this is your wife's alternative character, there is a very good chance that a buffer sorc will be forgotten except when needed in battle, unless you guys work together to make it memorable.
The Sorcerer may be forgotten, but then again that _may_ be OK. More below...
While most people would argue for the arcane and sylvan bloodlines as being the strongest, I kind of want to know if any appeal to your wife just for fluff's sake. Would she want the sorcerer to be sneaky -- umbral or rakshasha line? Would she want it to be a quasi-bard? Maestro. Think about what sort of personality you want for this character, and then select a fun bloodline to match.
To be honest this is the first time she will really "play" Pathfinder. The other times we have played it was just doing the Basic Set adventure a few times to get the mechanics down. Once we got rolling they all really loved it. I try and focus on the story telling and capture their imagination. (Often when we drive down the mountain to town we go through the Foggy Forest and we are always on the lookout for the Turtle Dragon.) She absolutely hates creating a character. I try and pull as much as I can and build something I think she will like. After this first story arch I think she will know about both melee and casters so it will be good in many ways. I tend to be a bit thorough. Maybe, perchance, I go a bit overboard from time to time. It has been 2 months since we wanted to start this story arch. (Pathfinder is not my 1st priority however, so it gets back seated often.) I still need to get familiar with the first module too. /sigh
There is an excellent guide to sorcerer bloodlines called Magic in the Blood that reviews all the bloodlines out there.
Great I will read it.
While I like touch of rage from the Orc bloodline, she could instead take Flagbearer feat from Inner Sea World Guide -- it's an always on bless that is a plus to damage and attack for the entire party. Sure, it requires holding a silly flag in one hand... But she would still be able to cast spells.
She played a Barb a bit and loved it so she might like the Rage spell. I will see which one floats her boat. Once I narrow the 1,000,000 choices she will make the call, and it will probably be on fluff! =)
I play a buffer / battlefield control sorcerer, and agree with most of DaG8Keepah's list of spells for first level. Although there are a few spells outside the core list that might be worth looking at, those are excellent choices. Try to aim for spells that go for different saves. So if you have grease (dex save) also go for silent image or color spray (will saves.)
I would go for either Sleep or Color Spray at first level, and plan on trading it out at level 4. Both spells lose potency after 1st level.
I will take a look!
I also suggest that your wife play a human, half-orc or half-elf for the human favored class bonus of more spells known as a sorcerer. The best thing you can do for a...
More known spells are great, thanks for the advice.
Thanks,
Braxon
I'm inclined to say that summon monster is a bad idea, for this group.
It's more paperwork, which slows down the game, meaning less fun, not more. Your wife is already running two characters, that's A LOT. Plus, i'm sure your kids have the occasional question as well.
I think you need to shift your perspective entirely, from 'what's effective' to 'what's fun?'. That way, you'll be able to do this for the long run. And in the long run, your family will gradually learn more and more rules.
I do like bard. And not just for the reasons above. Bards are smart, and that's something this party needs. You can use the bard to feed info to the party as needed. That's a nice GM trick, and will allow you to get them 'unstuck'.
Bards have fewer spells. That's actually helpful, since your wife already has a character to play.
Finally, bards teach a mechanic to the kids, which is the temporary bonus. Once they get used to bard song, they can extend that idea to bless, or haste, or whatever.
Why go Sorcerer for a dedicated buff character? Bard seems like a better choice, and simpler to run in many ways to boot.
To keep things simple I felt they needed 1 of each "type" to get a feel for the game. I tried to keep classes to just core classes, but you can see how well that went. =) I don't like that Wizards and Clerics must lock in their spells each morning. I could have either house ruled that they were spontaneous casters or used Pathfinder's prebuilt spontaneous casters. In addition to that I know nothing about a Bard. Well, I guess I do know a tiny bit about the Bard in DnD 2nd Edition.
For now I think it will be good for everyone to see "basic" classes (if there is such a thing).
Regards,
Braxon
Hmm: Tentacles? O.o ... tell me more. You have peaked my interest. ;P
Braxon: Do I get the idea that your wife is more of the "build me a character that does X, I want to get to the playing ASAP" type? If so, I understand. I have been there/done that before.
Typically once they are hooked on gaming they develop an interest in building the character eventually. If she isn't that type, I agree with Hmm. We want to say hello to her. You should have her make an account on the forums so she can post. :) Just tell her we are pro's at taking the scariness out of the multitude of options.
I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that Hmm, myself and several others are parents of children that we game with. Sometimes I know it is helpful to get advice from people who have been where you are at now.
I really wouldn't suggest summon monster for those still learning the game. it does really slow things down.
Any communal buff spells will be good if using the other books.
Celestial bloodline gets a few nice ones. Empyreal bloodline might be even better if using other books.
Haste is the classic the protection from or resist energy spells are great.
Protection from evil is practically necessary for many groups.
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I have to ask. Is it absolutely necessary to have her play 2 characters? If she's so new to the game, why double her burden? Can't you as the GM lower the risk to the party, or start them with more goodies, higher point buy, etc?
I see nothing wrong with having a party of 3. IMHO, the game will flow so much more smoothly. If the party is lacking something (disabling traps, healing, a knowledge check, etc)...introduce a friendly (or evil with a plan) NPC that can assist. Nothing permanent, mind you, just helpful for the time.
That being said...in what direction does she want to go? Martial smash face, sneaky, holy smash face, holy buffer, master of whispers?
As the others were saying...get her logged in!! We don't bite.
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I think it is great that you are doing this with your family.
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I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that Hmm, myself and several others are parents of children that we game with. Sometimes I know it is helpful to get advice from people who have been where you are at now.
It has been a long time. But about 15 years ago I got all 3 of my kids interested in 3.0 DnD. It helped their basic match and reading ability tremendously. They were slightly older than your kids, but not much.
Well, I’m not real good at the esoteric things. But I do have examples of learning concrete real world skills.
Some years back, both of my boys were having trouble in school. Though they are both reasonably intelligent, they were at the bottom of their respective classes in reading, spelling, and mathematics. One has an actual learning disability that makes reading very difficult and slow. The other just really didn’t try. I think because he was reading as well as his older brother who obviously wasn’t getting in trouble for it.
I got them interested in Magic The Gathering card game (including a computer version that let them play against the AI all they wanted). Well, to play that game you have to read and understand the card then add and subtract all those numbers. Then decide what will well work together in a deck.
In one game there is more reading and basic math than in any 2 school lessons that we would have to fight all night to get them to complete. Yes, eventually they would get the cards memorized. But that is also a good skill. Didn’t bother me at all. Every so often I’d get them a new booster back that they would have to understand then figure out how to incorporate in their decks.
After a couple months when they had that well in hand. I introduced them to DnD 3.0 books I still had lying around (I wasn’t in a gaming group at that time). They loved it. There’s tons more crap to read, understand, consider, add, subtract, multiply, divide, etc… than in any card game.
“Dad, my ranger’s got a bunch of gold but not enough for a better bow. What can he buy to be better at shooting and stuff? Well, maybe look at a wand of a ranger spell that will help like Cat’s Grace. They can really use that? What’s that do? How much does it cost? I don’t remember exactly off the top of my head, go look it up in the players handbook.”
(Of course I did remember, but I wanted him to check it.) Sure I had to help him with a bunch of words and some math, but for the next couple of hours he worked over the ranger spell list, what the spells did, how it might help him, and how much it cost. Found he couldn’t afford what he wanted. I suggested a partially charged wand might be found and more affordable. Then more time was spent figuring how much he could afford and if he wanted to spend all that.
It was quite literally almost an entire evening of general studying for his 3 most difficult classes. He didn’t realize it and loved every minute of it.
A couple months later their teachers asked us what we had done with the boys. In less than a semester they had gone from the very bottom of the class (with my wife and I pulling out our hair in frustration) to the top fourth of the class. I said “I got them interested in a fun game that has a heavy dictionary’s worth of rules.” They were shocked. They were afraid my wife and I had them in some sort of facist style boot camp studying all night every night. I answered, “Nope they got themselves studying all night every night and they don’t even know it.”
Their vocabulary is a bit skewed shall we say. But all through college they had instructors that would be surprised at some of the words they knew and used correctly in normal conversation. Adults don't expect a 4th grader to use words and phrase like pantheon, exclusion, area of affect, rebuke, dimension, non-combatant, ragnarok, etc... Especially not to use them correctly.
They were quicker and more accurate on their basic math than a math major. You know the same math you use to figure out whether this can of peanut butter on sale is a better buy than the two-pack.
At an age were most of their class mates were reading comic books they started reading the hobbit. Because I said it was written kinda like a long DnD adventure. Then we got in a big hours long discussion of how it wasn't really like a DnD adventure because X. Sounds to me like a comparative literary evaluation of a several hundred page novel when their class mates were doing 1/2 page book reports on a 50 page kids book.
It is one of my parenting decision that I am most proud of. And I almost didn’t do it because I was initially afraid if they really liked MtG, they would do that instead of studying. I finally agreed to it as a reward for something I don't now remember. Probably for passing a spelling test or something like that.
Braxon: Do I get the idea that your wife is more of the "build me a character that does X, I want to get to the playing ASAP" type? If so, I understand. I have been there/done that before.
That is where she is right now but I see the spark for grander things later. We have played Baulder's Gate and EverQuest together so she has a good foundation and interest in RPGs.
Typically once they are hooked on gaming they develop an interest in building the character eventually. If she isn't that type, I agree with Hmm. We want to say hello to her. You should have her make an account on the forums so she can post. :) Just tell her we are pro's at taking the scariness out of the multitude of options.
I think she would also have fun talking to others about Pathfinder but I can only suggest. We are working on it. I just need to get a game going! =)
I can't speak for everyone but I can tell you that Hmm, myself and several others are parents of children that we game with. Sometimes I know it is helpful to get advice from people who have been where you are at now.
When I was much younger I listed to a lot of Anthony Robbins. One thing I remember is that success leaves clues and you could accelerate your journy by modeling others that have the success you desire. Sign me up, I will be asking many questions here! =)
Regards,
Braxon
I really wouldn't suggest summon monster for those still learning the game. it does really slow things down.
Thanks for the advice, no summon monster story arch 1.
Thanks!
Braxon
I have to ask. Is it absolutely necessary to have her play 2 characters? If she's so new to the game, why double her burden? Can't you as the GM lower the risk to the party, or start them with more goodies, higher point buy, etc?
I see nothing wrong with having a party of 3. IMHO, the game will flow so much more smoothly. If the party is lacking something (disabling traps, healing, a knowledge check, etc)...introduce a friendly (or evil with a plan) NPC that can assist. Nothing permanent, mind you, just helpful for the time.
Good question. When we started out I was 100% against her playing two characters. When they 1st played Blackfang in the Beginner Box there was only a total of three characters and all went well.
... time passed...
I then started looking at their 1st mission, Crypt of the Everflame. I ran across a spot that required magic to find something and thought, well that this party can't do that. I felt like I had three choices, change the modules, change the character's abilities, or add the missing abilities in a 4th character.
For time sake, and the fact that I am new, I didn't want to change the modules. I am much more of a plan and prepare than a wing it sort of guy. Once I get good at the rules, I will feel better about winging more things. I did the next best thing, in my eyes, and added the missing abilities to their characters. To make it simple on the kids I just added to my wife's character. Now her Barbarian would now be a Barbarian/Sorcerer buffed up a bit. Off to research I went on gestalt characters. After all the research we spent a weekend creating new characters and . . . It was horrible for her. =/
... time passed ...
I decided against the gestalt as the 1st lvl 26HP Raging Barbarian gibbed every and all goblins in the Beginner Box Blackfang mission. /sigh
... time passed ...
Next up was 1 character per "simple" roll. My wife qualified for 2 characters even though I really, _really_ wanted her to play a single character so she could "be" her. I ran into some trouble on the Sorcerer build and I started these Family Time threads.
... Enter Brad McDowell ...
Great idea! She doesn't have to run the Sorcerer, I will. Well, I will for at least story arch part 1 of 3. After that it will be her or I.
I have not got the backstory done but he will be an old farmer that knows farming and common sense. Odd things happen around him over the years but it was not until his 65th birthday that he realized magic coursed though his body. He is not really a fighter, but he is willing to aid his companions via buffing spells. I have the loose idea of a buffing Fizban. (Of course if she ends up playing "him", "he" will really be a princess in hiding just playing the old forgetful man as a cover.)
My wife and I talked about it and she is good either way. Because my wife has played computer games over the years she is sometimes stuck in the computer simulation of Pathfinder. She often says things like, "Oh I didn't know I could do that". The common sense farmer will be able to take a back seat until they get stuck on a high balcony needing to get down. He will say something like, "Well, if we could only find a place to tie our rope we could climb down to the lower level." If I do it right, I should be able to gently guide the party but keep low profile enough that any wins are their own. I would normally otherwise hate running a character in a party for any length of time.
Thanks,
Braxon
ElterAgo,
That was a great story! Thank you so much for sharing. Once we get this first story arch done I hope that the kids take off and build their own characters while weighing all the various pros and cons of each build.
That was very encouraging,
Braxon
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I just built a sorcerer for an upcoming campaign. Aside from the recommendations on spells (all good ideas), the most important tip I could say would be to make sure to go human (or demi-human) for the Human Favoured Class Bonus:
Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast.
By far, the greatest weakness of the sorceress is her limited spell selection. This little perk allows you to greatly increase her number of spells, starting with extra cantrips at level 1. If you're worried about giving up the extra hp/level, not a problem ...just give her Toughness at level 1 with the human Bonus Feat. You can further maximize her versatility with scrolls and wands and the Handy Haversack, i.e. The Magical Purse that Holds Everything! :)
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Other tricks:
Use wands for stuff where DC doesn't matter, like mage armor, shield, magic missile.
When you have more money, you can use pages of spells known to pick up some extra low level spells. 1K for a level one spell.
A mnemonic vestment will allow you to cast a scroll as if it was one of your spells known, and doesn't consume the scroll -- great for spells that you don't always need.
Hmm
Braxon --
I see that you will be running the sorcerer. Have you decided on your bloodline or archetypes yet? I'm curious about what you chose.
Hmm
Yesterday I was able to get the Rogue all planned out. We then started working on the Oracle. Today I worked with the kids and teaching them electronics(Arduino). I was not able to get to the Sorcerer this weekend. /sigh
Thanks for asking,
Braxon
Well, my knowledge of sorcerers is extremely limited, I have exceptional knowledge regarding the use of summoned creatures for battlefield manipulation. Now, as a full caster, a sorcerer is somewhat squishy, and as such unless they are completely secure in their safety should keep it relatively close should they need it to intercept a melee enemy who is targeting the caster. The concept of summoned monster is to add another frontline fighter for a given time, as well as a body guard for the squishy caster. As such, they have numerous uses outside if battle as well as inside. While you do have a rogue for traps, a summoned monster can sponge traps and lead the charge into a room, bearing the brunt of the immediate damage. After these beginning means, the summoned monster effectively functions as another fighter, except manipulated by the spell caster, in this case your wife. A summoned monster can serve as a means of eliminating enemy casters, as battles are often designed to tie up only the normal party members, leaving the summoned monster free to attack any enemy casters or other enemy as they wish. They can also temporarily take the place if one of the PCs in main combat, freeing them up to do anything you need them to do, such as distract the pissed looking Orc and as your monster is being crushed to a pulp the rogue can apply his lock pick to the safe so you can get the treasure and clear out. It's a bit late so I might have missed some stuff, but I think that will suffice for the time being.
Wow. I just read my post and there are enough spelling and grammatical errors I could vomit DX
Hello All,
Thanks again for all your help. I finally got some time to work on the Sorcerer that my wife was going to play. It ends up, I will play him for at least the 1st module. He is a farmer that has worked all his life in the fields, hence his STR. The only thing he has going for him is his common sense (I will use this to nunge the party if they don't quite see what they could do next). He has always had some odd sense about himself and he finds out that magic is coursing though his veins.
After Act I, if she wants, she can play her Pally and this Sorcerer if she feels she can have fun having two characters. "He" may just so happen to be a princess on the run for her life and be in disguise for Act I. =)
Build:
Human Buffing Sorcerer (let others shine)
As the DM will at least be playing him for Act I, he can't be the party's face character.
Orc Bloodline
Abilities:
STR: 15 (Ant Haul to evac party on wipe)
DEX: 13
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 18
Traits:
Reactionary
Berserker of Society (Houserule: will work on Touch of Rage)
Unnatural Presence
Attribute Plan:
4: STR (to get to +3 Mod for Intimidating Prowess @ lvl 7)
8: DEX
Feet Plan:
1: Improved Initiative and Toughness
2: -na-
3: Dodge
4: -na-
5: Combat Casting
6: -na-
7: -----??Please Help??-----
8: -na-
Sorcerer Plan:
1: -na-
2: -na-
3: -na-
4: -na-
5: -na-
6: -na-
7: Intimidating Prowess (Add +3 STR to Intimidate)
8: -na-
Spells:
Buffing spells (no idea)
Skills @ every level: (4/lvl)
Intimidate +1
Spellcraft +1
Knowledge: Arcana +1
Knowledge: <insert others here> rotate until all have 1 rank
Gear:
Armour: Armoured Kilt
Weapon: -----??Please Help??-----
HP: 10
AC: 12 (15 w/Mage Armour)
At least now I have a place to start. I am starting to look at spells now. As this character may only get to lvl 7 or lvl 8 I don't know how I would effectively use any Metamagic feats but I need 1 extra feet at lvl 7.
I would love you hear your thoughts,
Braxon
Hello All,
Thanks again for all your help. I finally got some time to work on the Sorcerer that my wife was going to play. It ends up, I will play him for at least the 1st module. He is a farmer that has worked all his life in the fields, hence his STR. The only thing he has going for him is his common sense (I will use this to nunge the party if they don't quite see what they could do next). He has always had some odd sense about himself and he finds out that magic is coursing though his veins.
After Act I, if she wants, she can play her Pally and this Sorcerer if she feels she can have fun having two characters. "He" may just so happen to be a princess on the run for her life and be in disguise for Act I. =)
Build:
Human Buffing Sorcerer (let others shine)
As the DM will at least be playing him for Act I, he can't be the party's face character.
Orc Bloodline
Abilities:
STR: 15 (Ant Haul to evac party on wipe)
DEX: 13
CON: 13
INT: 12
WIS: 10
CHA: 18
Traits:
Reactionary
Berserker of Society (Houserule: will work on Touch of Rage)
Unnatural Presence
Attribute Plan:
4: STR (to get to +3 Mod for Intimidating Prowess @ lvl 7)
8: DEX
Feet Plan:
1: Improved Initiative and Toughness
2: -na-
3: Dodge
4: -na-
5: Combat Casting
6: -na-
7: -----??Please Help??-----
8: -na-
Sorcerer Plan:
1: Touch of Rage
2: -na-
3: Fearless
3: Burning Hands (sp)
4: -na-
5: Bull's Strength (sp)
6: -na-
7: Intimidating Prowess (Add +3 STR to Intimidate)
7: Rage (sp)
8: -na-
Spells:
Buffing spells (no idea)
Skills @ every level: (4/lvl)
Intimidate +1
Spellcraft +1
Knowledge: Arcana +1
Knowledge: <insert others here> rotate until all have 1 rank
Gear:
Armour: Armoured Kilt
Weapon: -----??Please Help??-----
HP: 10
AC: 12 (15 w/Mage Armour)
At least now I have a place to start. I am starting to look at spells now. As this character may only get to lvl 7 or lvl 8 I don't know how I would effectively use any Metamagic feats but I need 1 extra feet at lvl 7.
I would love you hear your thoughts,
Braxon
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Strength can drop to 10/12. If you need carrying capacity just ant haul all day, ant haul lasts 2h/lv.
increase dex, con or even int some. Sorcerers don't do skills well unless sage. Wouldn't bother on putting ranks in all knowledge skills really. Consider taking some bluff to help talk the partyout of hot spots. Paladins can't lie, but it doesn't mean they can't opt to keep silent when a lie is being told...
sorcs don't need intimidating prowess to look nasty, they are already badass.
Here are some suggestions on sorcerer spells
Cantrips: Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Light, Ghost Sound
First: Protection from Evil, Grease, Reduce Person (for the sorc), Enlarge Person (for the others), Mage Armor, Shield
Second: Blur, Invisibility, Mirror Image, False Life, See Invisibility
Third: Haste, Fly, Displacement, Heroism
Really I wouldn't recommend this for a PC, but for an NPC sidekick it could work well. The fact that you aren't a very good buffer doesn't matter as the other three will destroy in melee anyway most likely.
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My suggestion for spells:
Cantrip: agree with gregory
Lv 1: colour spray, enlarge person, mage armor, grease, vanish, protection from evil
colour spray even for monsters at 5 hd and above gives 1 round stunned condition. Denied dex = sneak attack fodder
get ant haul via pagevof spell knowledge
Lv 2: glitterdust, blur, invisibility, see invisibility, bulls strength
Glitterdust = blind if fail will saves = more sneak attack fodder
Lv 3 : agree with gregory
Armor = haramaki (from ultimate combat)
Lv 3 feat - flagbearer. Everyone within 30 ft of sorc gets +1 atk and damage rolls. Does not stack with bless but frees up oracle to beatstick early.
Lv 7 - battle cry. Requires 5 ranks perform oratory. Swift action to give allies rerolls.
Weapon for sorc - longspear. Sorcs have simple weapon profeciency. Use it to aid another in rounds you aren't intimidating things. Attach flag to longspear.
Braxon - you might want to consider half elf so you can put fcb into more touch of rage for levels 1-4. Only elves/half elves can take that fcb. In which case you might want to drop toughness/flagbearer.
I do not really like the Bloodrager but it seems to fit your concept for the character. Have you taken a look at that class?
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The OP wanted to make an arcane support character as a GMPC to help the party(who are new to pathfinder) out. The GMPC is not to outshine the party, so I don't think flashy display of pryotechnics was what he had in mind. If he rolls a bloodrager he would lose early access to stuff like haste. Not to mention murderize stuff before the party has a go at it
he should carry a scroll of magic weapon or 2 though, just in case.
expeditious retreat us personal only, cannot be cast on party members.
Acid splash > ray of frost, because focus component for extra 1 dmg is cheaper. Also acid splash has no SR. Skeletons are immune to cold, so you're actually taking 2 spells, disrupt undead and ray of frost to do the job when acid splash would do.
Hello Everyone,
We actually played!
My wife's sorcerer became my sorcerer (I am the DM too) at least for a little while. She can now run her Pally and "become" her. The Sorcerer's name is Ron, well if she takes her over for the 2nd and 3rd module the kids will find out it is actually Veronica who is in hiding. =) Ron's roll is to give the party some arcane magic abilities, buff the other characters, and fade into the background (until "he" becomes Veronica that is).
All of the melees in the group are Opportunistic Gamblers so they love his Touch of Rage. Wow is an Oracle with a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes dangerous against brain dead skeletons who lack self preservation instincts. 12AC is not so good and I need to figure out how to correctly fire Acid Splash into melee combat. So far, so good.
Thanks for everyone's help!
Braxon
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Human for race hands down. The 1 extra spell known per level as a favored race bonus is fantastic. More spells = better for a sorc.
The Pit spells will be your BFF for control. Even if your enemies make the reflex save and don't fall in, they still have to avoid it. And if they DO fall in, they are probably out of the combat for a few rounds if not the entire thing. If you get a caster in it they are mostly useless if they don't have a spell to get out since they won't have a line of sight on anything to cast spells on it. A lot of tank type characters would need to take off all their armor to have a prayer of climbing out. Silent image is a wonderfully overlooked control spell. Make a wall and it LOOKS like a wall, as far as your enemies are concerned it is a real wall and they don't get to make a save until they interact with it. (touch it, throw something at it etc) If they fail the save then it's a real wall and they have to go around or attempt to climb nothing. The actual wall spells are useful as well at higher levels for splitting bad guys and you don't have to concentrate on it after casting like Image. Mad Monkeys is a good action economy spell since it hangs around and annoys the hell out of bad guys while you can keep casting spells on following rounds while yelling out orders to the monkeys.
I second LazarX's suggestion, especially if this is supposed to be a background buffer character.
For a more active role 7crown has good suggestions. But if this is a DM PC then it might be better in the background.