It is also a level 3 spell for wizards. And a transmuter gets to cast it 4 times by level 5 if he have a bound item.this thread has made it clear to me how horrible i am at making martials.
my samurai get's like 13 DPR at level 5 against CR 5, 18 on a challenge but still. also how is a 5th level character supposed to be hasted, it's a 3rd level spell for bards even.
*face desk (i don't play around wizards often, and forgot they get spell levels at like, half level minus one)
If it is undead how do you manage 40 at level 4?Look ma blunt arrows. At level 4 40 damage over 3 attacks is not that hard since deadly aim is online now for +4 damage with +4 from STR, +1 from weapon. Although slightly out of reach for practical builds. A ZAM is more balanced than the other options but scales up better than some of the listed options. It's DPR is on the lower end of the listed ones because it's more balanced.
And please notice this is the builds you claim is in the High end and i just ask for the avarage numbers.I'm presenting existing builds not extremely lopsided theory crafting. Most actual builds will have poor DPR unless buffed in some way by the anvils. You also are unlikely to accept Lancing DPR.
I was asking how your undead controller Does 40 by level 4. Sorry for being unclear.
We are talking about what appropiate DPR are i expect that that is somthing a build Can deliver at every level. But i realize that some comes online later han others. I know that Lance is a Nice weapon and a Lance Can deliver at least some of the numbers you talk about but 200 by level 9 i find unbeliveable on a lancer.I have only seen you oresent one build and that was what i Will Call a extremly loobside one. I realize we play with different min/max levels and stuff but the survivalibillity of your base Line barbarian is in doubt. Since AC 15 meens that his enemy Will hit as often as he will.
I Think we need the appropiate DPR builds to have at least some staying power and to function at least apropoately at all levels if we are to leave the realm of teori craft and make this exercise have a point.
But you must have a few that Can do appropiate DPR at all levels? I dont Care for the 60 at level 3 builds you talk about, just some that Can do ok from 1-20. If that is not the case? Then i Think you set the bar in teori craft land.
Here I'm going to make my sacred fist character and see how badly his DPR does. I'm guessing it will be poorly because It's not a DPR oriented build. I think the problem is that we're having poor communication. The problem being that you assume not doing enough damage is a problem and it's not if you bring anything else to the group, but if you bring nothing but "Smash face harder" You really need to meet that DPR no matter what lengths you have to go to in order to reach it.
Until then here's a simple build. 18 str human fighter using a lance by level 2 charges with PA+Lance for 3d8+27. There ya go.
EDIT: You'll also notice monster HP jumps more around 5, 6, 11, 16 than previous levels. The game designers assume haste as much as they assume BAB 6/1 and 11/6/1.
I Think your link May be broken. How Does the figther keep a normal steed relevant?
Edit: i made a gandarme cavalier with somthing like this he had amazing DPR but not 110 at level 5.
i just want to know what the normal DPR of someone who is 2 handing with a melee weapon and not particularly buffed up. why? i want to compare it to THAT number to know if my character can do that without thinking about being hasted or what not later.
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That's what my numbers are. The only things considered are things he can give himself without interfering with actions, like boots of speed or static bonuses. No shenanigans with potions, no relying on other people.
i just want to know what the normal DPR of someone who is 2 handing with a melee weapon and not particularly buffed up. why? i want to compare it to THAT number to know if my character can do that without thinking about being hasted or what not later.Then you're going to be very depressed at higher levels because it's going to take them 3 rounds to kill a CR 19-20 at level.
They start out good but then get worse as they level up.
except THEN(during combat) i will have haste and be covered in dancing bard ju-ju, but while i'm making my build, i don't want to need to know a bard will be involved or a wizard focusing on buffs will be involved.
I aim to be able to take Half the hit points of a Level+1 creature with my avarage DPR if i make a guy that hope to be relevant in damage land. Some times it is higher but not often. Some times it is lower because i also end up wanting skills and social stuff( my last barbarian could with out cheating on the stats retrain to wizard and stay relevant, that is how bad it is :))
But below 1/3 of hit points of a level +1, with out buffs, is too low in my book. And you need to be at least at that level from game start.
edit: a team is either gonna buff, debuff or help you kill so i leave them out of the equation.
And i also like to have some survivalibillity.
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I'm including full buffs. They do really bad relatively at those levels until the barbarian gets CaGM.except THEN(during combat) i will have haste and be covering in dancing bard ju-ju, but while i'm making my build, i don't want to need to know a bard will be involved or a wizard focusing on buffs will be involved.i just want to know what the normal DPR of someone who is 2 handing with a melee weapon and not particularly buffed up. why? i want to compare it to THAT number to know if my character can do that without thinking about being hasted or what not later.Then you're going to be very depressed at higher levels because it's going to take them 3 rounds to kill a CR 19-20 at level.
They start out good but then get worse as they level up.
then your numbers are simply not useful to me.
then your numbers are simply not useful to me.That's fine. Keep in mind you're free to set any DPR as the DPR needed for the group even if you decided DPR=Level IE DPR 5 at level 5 it only matters in relation to how likely they are to kill the weakest character in the group. If they need 20s to effect your party your DPR doesn't matter much. That's why I feel like both of you are playing at much lower levels. In practical games archery scales off the charts especially playing with a bard type.
The reason I set it so high is that if I cannot 1 round the target with spells before he can both blasphemy and maze someone is going to die. It doesn't really matter if you're just going to have 1 more D20 roll which does 10-20 damage to a PC.
except as i mentioned i specifically want/need out of combat conditions for easy build making. why? my groups tend to build what they want, not what we need. yes, they do die more often.
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then your numbers are simply not useful to me.That's fine. Keep in mind you're free to set any DPR as the DPR needed for the group even if you decided DPR=Level IE DPR 5 at level 5 it only matters in relation to how likely they are to kill the weakest character in the group. If they need 20s to effect your party your DPR doesn't matter much. That's why I feel like both of you are playing at much lower levels. In practical games archery scales off the charts especially playing with a bard type.
The reason I set it so high is that if I cannot 1 round the target with spells before he can both blasphemy and maze someone is going to die. It doesn't really matter if you're just going to have 1 more D20 roll which does 10-20 damage to a PC.
Who are you figthing that cast Maze and blasphemy in the same round? And is your team doing nothing but buffing you?
except as i mentioned i specifically want/need out of combat conditions for easy build making. why? my groups tend to build what they want, not what we need. yes, they do die more often.My group dislikes dying at high level as it costs them all the buffs and 10 minutes which likely means they get interrupted and the spell is lost.
Who are you figthing that cast Maze and blasphemy in the same round? And is your team doing nothing but buffing you?It's not the same round. It survived a round because you accepted 2 rounds as the DPR metric. Using 1 round it can either blasphemy or maze and then die statistically to the 1 or 2 people who don't save while the maze target has 1 or 0 people while he kills the dazed targets. And buffs from the group (heroism, GMW, half a dozen other buffs) are long duration and nearly free.
doesn't matter because i'm not trying to kill anything with these numbers, just gage my character's competence.
Bandw I will post a few unbuffed decent builds at level 5 and give you their DPR once I am home.
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I would suggest that my charaters DPR is a good baseline as this is without any outside help, any magical items, or any assistance other than self-buffing abilities. For reference I play Gishes and the like.
1 14
2 16
3 21
4 28
5 42
6 47
7 60
8 73
9 95
10 112
11 134
12+ stupid because of double full attacks and other such nonsense(my groups haven't played past this level because it starts getting really silly around here)
I would suggest that my charaters DPR is a good baseline as this is without any outside help, any magical items, or any assistance other than self-buffing abilities. For reference I play Gishes and the like.
1 14
2 16
3 21
4 28
5 42
6 47
7 60
8 73
9 95
10 112
11 134
12+ stupid because of double full attacks and other such nonsense(my groups haven't played past this level because it starts getting really silly around here)
How do you get double full attack?
Edit: i am also curious to see this build since a serie of numbers really dosent say it all. As undones example told us, because he/she plays in what appear to be very different min/max envioment than i do.
I have between 13 and 18 for a fighter and a barbarian.
I did not use any archetypes or dump any stats.
It was not a full build
str around 16, cont 14 wis 12 or 14
great sword
weapon focus
power attack
basically only core feats contributing to DPR.
Average damage if their attacks hit was in the 20's which is not the same as DPR.
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There's no need for a comprehensive table when the number can be easily generated for any class and level through the use of a simple pseudo-function that I've written in Perl but could be easily adapted to any programming language:
sub sufficientDPR {
my $sufficient=0;
($level,$class,$hadFunLastTime)=@_;
if ($hadFunLastTime) {
$sufficient=1;
}return $sufficent
}
There are very few people on the pathfinder forums that know how to code, let alone understand perl pseudo code. If you're going to post pseudo code you should probably orient it to look more like C.
There are very few people on the pathfinder forums that know how to code, let alone understand perl pseudo code. If you're going to post pseudo code you should probably orient it to look more like C.
if you really needed a translation:
IF(had fun==true) THEN (sufficientDPR=true)
While i'm interrupting: the OP seems to be asking for representative/generic average numbers as a benchmark. Some of you clearly got that, others seem to be answering a different question.
so.. if you guys are saying 15 DPR is representative for lvl 1, do you mean that a party of 5 lvl 1s should be able to consistently kill a (hypothetical level-appropriate) 70 hp monster in one round? If not, what are you saying?
15 DPR is high. 15 is high even for average damage when you ignore AC and assume the attack hits.
Average damage for an attack that lands is more likely to be around 10 points, and that is with a two handed weapon.
str=16 4 damage
power attack 3 damage
if the weapon is a d8 =4.5 damage
d10 = 5.5
so 10 to 13 is more likely
I dont think most people dump two stats unless it is 15 point buy so having an 18 or 20 is not really likely for martials who also will have a decent con score and might bump wisdom to avoid failing will saves.
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I would suggest that my characters DPR is a good baseline as this is without any outside help, any magical items, or any assistance other than self-buffing abilities. For reference I play Gishes and the like.
1 14
2 16
3 21
4 28
5 42
6 47
7 60
8 73
9 95
10 112
11 134
12+ stupid because of double full attacks and other such nonsense(my groups haven't played past this level because it starts getting really silly around here)How do you get double full attack?
Edit: i am also curious to see this build since a series of numbers really doesn't say it all. As Undone's example told us, because he/she plays in what appear to be very different min/max environment than I do.
Build is a Human Inquisitor(Sanctified Slayer), double full attack is because co-ordinated charge + Pounce + Animal Companion = both you and your companion full attacking twice each turn.
Traits
Fate's Favored
Inquistion
Chivalry
Stats(15 pb)
Str 19(qualify for raging brute with item admittedly, but didn't include it in DPR)
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats
Human: Racial Heritage(Ogre)
1 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus(Claws)
5 Raging Brute(Lesser Beast Totem)
7 Savage Critical
9 Raging Brute(Beast Totem)
11 Improved Critical(Claws)
13 Raging Brute(Greater Beast Totem)
Preferred spells include: Divine favor and the better version of it.
You can kinda do this build with anything as the basic components are
Racial Heritage(Ogre)
Raging Brute
Improved Critical
Animal Companion
Sneak Attack
Savage Critical
Power Attack
and
co-ordinated charge
This build is more generic, the one I used for the DPR worshipped a god that gave bastard sword proficiency and thus the weapon focus and improved critical were for that.
I would suggest that my characters DPR is a good baseline as this is without any outside help, any magical items, or any assistance other than self-buffing abilities. For reference I play Gishes and the like.
1 14
2 16
3 21
4 28
5 42
6 47
7 60
8 73
9 95
10 112
11 134
12+ stupid because of double full attacks and other such nonsense(my groups haven't played past this level because it starts getting really silly around here)How do you get double full attack?
Edit: i am also curious to see this build since a series of numbers really doesn't say it all. As Undone's example told us, because he/she plays in what appear to be very different min/max environment than I do.Build is a Human Inquisitor(Sanctified Slayer), double full attack is because co-ordinated charge + Pounce + Animal Companion = both you and your companion full attacking twice each turn.
Traits
Fate's FavoredInquistion
ChivalryStats(15 pb)
Str 19(qualify for raging brute with item admittedly, but didn't include it in DPR)
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 7
Wis 14
Cha 7Feats
Human: Racial Heritage(Ogre)
1 Power Attack
3 Weapon Focus(Claws)
5 Raging Brute(Lesser Beast Totem)
7 Savage Critical
9 Raging Brute(Beast Totem)
11 Improved Critical(Claws)
13 Raging Brute(Greater Beast Totem)Preferred spells include: Divine favor and the better version of it.
You can kinda do this build with anything as the basic components are
Racial Heritage(Ogre)
Raging Brute
Improved Critical
Animal Companion
Sneak Attack
Savage Critical
Power Attack
and
co-ordinated chargeThis build is more generic, the one I used for the DPR worshipped a god that gave bastard sword proficiency and thus the weapon focus and improved critical were for that.
that is a beat trick, but you need to be level 13 for the steed to get coordinatet charge unless you retrain it in. Other than that it is a trick that cost all the resurses of a character(aside from spells i know) from to have this power 3 minutes pr Day. Your steed is very vulnerabel if it goes on charging all the time with out you on it. But i can see this working with a buddy from the team as well.
Edit: also getting weapon focus without having the claws May not swing with every body.Edit 2: and the Ogre relations are really coming out in the ligth with that new book :)
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15 DPR is high. 15 is high even for average damage when you ignore AC and assume the attack hits.
Average damage for an attack that lands is more likely to be around 10 points, and that is with a two handed weapon.
str=16 4 damage
power attack 3 damage
if the weapon is a d8 =4.5 damage
d10 = 5.5so 10 to 13 is more likely
I dont think most people dump two stats unless it is 15 point buy so having an 18 or 20 is not really likely for martials who also will have a decent con score and might bump wisdom to avoid failing will saves.
I feel like if I post this exact chart again without the high charts underneath maybe it won't get glossed over. Wraith, I'm only replying to you because of the number you tossed out for level 1. Capt Darling keeps saying he wants a normal build baseline but keeps ignoring this chart in favor of one that is labeled under a category he isn't interested in playing in. Hopefully by putting this out there by itself he will be able to see it as useful.
1 - 102 - 15
3 - 20
4 - 27
5 - 35
6 - 42
7 - 50
8 - 57
9 - 65
10 - 72
11 - 80
12 - 90
13 - 100
14 - 110
15 - 120
16 - 135
17 - 150
18 - 165
19 - 185
20 - 205
Capt Darling, look, it's 65 at 9th level. You should use this chart. If 2/4 characters are made with this in mind and 2/4 characters are in support roles (BF control, buffs, debuffs) then your party will find AP's to be easy to moderate difficulty. Also, keep in mind that DPR happens in a vacuum. It should be measured by what your character is capable of doing in a full round using only buffs that can be activated as a swift or faster action OR buffs with 10 minutes / level or longer duration. Only buffs the character can provide for themselves should be used, and no consumable items should be used.
15 DPR is high. 15 is high even for average damage when you ignore AC and assume the attack hits.
Average damage for an attack that lands is more likely to be around 10 points, and that is with a two handed weapon.
str=16 4 damage
power attack 3 damage
if the weapon is a d8 =4.5 damage
d10 = 5.5so 10 to 13 is more likely
I dont think most people dump two stats unless it is 15 point buy so having an 18 or 20 is not really likely for martials who also will have a decent con score and might bump wisdom to avoid failing will saves.
I feel like if I post this exact chart again without the high charts underneath maybe it won't get glossed over. Wraith, I'm only replying to you because of the number you tossed out for level 1. Capt Darling keeps saying he wants a normal build baseline but keeps ignoring this chart in favor of one that is labeled under a category he isn't interested in playing in. Hopefully by putting this out there by itself he will be able to see it as useful.
1 - 10
2 - 15
3 - 20
4 - 27
5 - 35
6 - 42
7 - 50
8 - 57
9 - 65
10 - 72
11 - 80
12 - 90
13 - 100
14 - 110
15 - 120
16 - 135
17 - 150
18 - 165
19 - 185
20 - 205Capt Darling, look, it's 65 at 9th level. You should use this chart. If 2/4 characters are made with this in mind and 2/4 characters are in support roles (BF control, buffs, debuffs) then your party will find AP's to be easy to moderate difficulty. Also, keep in mind that DPR happens in a vacuum. It should be measured by what your character is capable of doing in a full round using only buffs that can be activated as a swift or faster action OR buffs with 10 minutes / level or longer duration. Only buffs the character can provide for themselves should be used, and no consumable items should be used.
Hey sorry if i ignorer this one. I was pehaps a bit focused on getting to see the builds that can play in the other categorys, and only the double charging guy have been shows so far.. This one is only sligthly higher than what i would set as my own minimum.
I think my current hammer/anvil can do 65 if ever he makes it to level 9:)| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No problem, I was really just noticing that you kept saying the number on my high list were my idea of "appropriate" when I specifically said that those numbers were extreme cheese. As with most extreme cheese builds they will sweet spot for 2-4 levels. I don't think I have ever seen a 1-20 build that could hang on the extreme cheese chart for the entire progression.
No problem, I was really just noticing that you kept saying the number on my high list were my idea of "appropriate" when I specifically said that those numbers were extreme cheese. As with most extreme cheese builds they will sweet spot for 2-4 levels. I don't think I have ever seen a 1-20 build that could hang on the extreme cheese chart for the entire progression.
I was refering to undones list and your number 2 and 3 but i can see why that wasent clear.
I just think we too often see things along the Lines of doing damage 40 at level 4 is standart for a full bab guy. But now we know that undones numbers was with best buffs pr level so i think we are a bit more in agreement. And i agree that the Power builds often only really rule the World at a few Sweet levels.
1 - 10
2 - 15
3 - 20
4 - 27
5 - 35
6 - 42
7 - 50
8 - 57
9 - 65
10 - 72
11 - 80
12 - 90
13 - 100
14 - 110
15 - 120
16 - 135
17 - 150
18 - 165
19 - 185
20 - 205
Fantastic post, thanks for the calculator.
A quick poke at some basic builds tell me these numbers are doable quite consistently, although you definitely have to sink expendables/build resources past power attack to keep up. Both a quick two-hander and archer paladin build reach or get close to these numbers and pull ahead when smiting, as they should.
If anything this shows me people struggle with DPS not because they don't super optimise, but because they fail to reach important feat milestones. If you don't get power attack at level 1 as a two hander, for example, you sit below the curve for many levels. If you don't get rapid shot and manyshot ASAP as an archer, you really suffer. Unfortunately for a lot of builds in pathfinder there just isn't room for fluff feats, and the game doesn't adequately explain this to new players.
1 - 10
2 - 15
3 - 20
4 - 27
5 - 35
6 - 42
7 - 50
8 - 57
9 - 65
10 - 72
11 - 80
12 - 90
13 - 100
14 - 110
15 - 120
16 - 135
17 - 150
18 - 165
19 - 185
20 - 205
Fantastic post, thanks for the calculator.
A quick poke at some basic builds tell me these numbers are doable quite consistently, although you definitely have to sink expendables/build resources past power attack to keep up. Both a quick two-hander and archer paladin build reach or get close to these numbers and pull ahead when smiting, as they should.
If anything this shows me people struggle with DPS not because they don't super optimise, but because they fail to reach important feat milestones. If you don't get power attack at level 1 as a two hander, for example, you sit below the curve for many levels. If you don't get rapid shot and manyshot ASAP as an archer, you really suffer. Unfortunately for a lot of builds in pathfinder there just isn't room for fluff feats, and the game doesn't adequately explain this to new players.
No problem. I agree that these numbers really push a player to chose feats with DPR in mind. I really feel like this would be considered "good to high" DPR. Meaning that if a group had a 5th player then you could reduce those numbers by 20% and still find AP's easy to moderate difficulty. Also, if you have a 4 member party that is no built on the fighter/rogue/cleric/wizard paradigm then you could see a bit less because other party members will share the damage output burden.
Just for an idea, I would expect a low/moderate optimization party to have a fighter doing about 80% that number, a cleric and a rogue each doing about 50% of that number, and a wizard offering support. Clearly those roles are somewhat mutable, but on the whole that party will defeat a CR=APL+1 encounter in 2 rounds including only getting partial DPR in the first round while they get in place.
That's low optimization, and they still win the encounter in 2 rounds. That should make AP's a fun challenge (not a cakewalk, but not a nail biter.)
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Its an interesting baseline specially for base classes, if the regular versions of martials cant reach that damage quota it could be certaintly fair to consider them underpowered. A striker like class also should exceed a little the regular damage charts to be considerated as he is actually doing his job
Unfortunately for a lot of builds in pathfinder there just isn't room for fluff feats, and the game doesn't adequately explain this to new players.
Slightly off-topic, but I am of the mindset that you should not have to spend resources for flavor(things that do not impact the game).
As an example if I want my magic missiles to have various shapes I should not need a feat for that, and the game(official books) should tell players they should only "pay" for things that will actually be used.
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Its an interesting baseline specially for base classes, if the regular versions of martials cant reach that damage quota it could be certaintly fair to consider them underpowered. A striker like class also should exceed a little the regular damage charts to be considerated as he is actually doing his jobAs I posted above the only practical measurement of DPR is number of rounds to kill the target. Doing 29 damage instead of 20 is not functionally different against a 40 HP opponent. It's still 2 rounds. Doing 40 or 50 doesn't matter against 55 HP.
Exept the DPSer May not be alone.
Edit: i meen if we leave the realm of optimal bunds with best for level buffs we May have a situation where other players can have done damage as well or one attack from a mate will take Down the baddie and the rest of the attacks can go to his friend that will then go down in 1 or two in next round.
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Hello was just asking if someone has done a list of the regular dpr of a character by level and the max/min dpr a character has. It to more or less stablish a measure of a character firepower. Im aware of the DPR olimpics but it only offers reference for one level im looking for a more complete list
I've done it for several classes, and charted the results in a spreadsheet. It is the data set I base a lot of my personal opinions on.
Even if I posted full information, all it would do is start an argument as anyone who disagreed with my numbers would start finding excuses why there where to high, to low, used options outside the CRB, did not use splatbook options I consider questionable, etc.
If you're going for a 2 round kill any DPR in excess of the above is wasted invest in something else. .
This isn't true. Not all monsters have exactly CR equivalent AC and HP. Similarly, there is variance in how much damage you actually do each round (weapon damage early, iteratives later). DPR excess of the above ensures you 2 round more enemies in the book, and do so more consistently (with the possibility of 1 rounding weaker enemies or when you get a lucky set of rolls).
Careful not to theorycraft so much it ends up in a vacuum.
There are very few people on the pathfinder forums that know how to code, let alone understand perl pseudo code. If you're going to post pseudo code you should probably orient it to look more like C.if you really needed a translation:
IF(had fun==true) THEN (sufficientDPR=true)
While i'm interrupting: the OP seems to be asking for representative/generic average numbers as a benchmark. Some of you clearly got that, others seem to be answering a different question.
so.. if you guys are saying 15 DPR is representative for lvl 1, do you mean that a party of 5 lvl 1s should be able to consistently kill a (hypothetical level-appropriate) 70 hp monster in one round? If not, what are you saying?
I didn't really need the translation, but I was more so speaking on the behalf of the pathfinder forums.
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If you're going for a 2 round kill any DPR in excess of the above is wasted invest in something else. .This isn't true. Not all monsters have exactly CR equivalent AC and HP. Similarly, there is variance in how much damage you actually do each round (weapon damage early, iteratives later). DPR excess of the above ensures you 2 round more enemies in the book, and do so more consistently (with the possibility of 1 rounding weaker enemies or when you get a lucky set of rolls).
Careful not to theorycraft so much it ends up in a vacuum.
DPR exists in a vacuum. It's a benchmark for character building. By design it won't have a direct correlation to a game, but will only give you a base to predict performance compared to another hypothetical.
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The latter is more likely.Objection. The builds given here are not 'average'.
Either that, or every single person I've ever played Pathfinder with is ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE at optimization. (Which is admittedly not out of the question.)
I don't believe this to actually be true. I've changed some things on my samurai and still just barely meet BigDTBones numbers WHILE challenging. and come out slightly above cheapy's while not.