Yes, lets talk about it here. I was not there when Mark Brown was shot to death by Wilson. However, based on the evidence I have seen from numerous news reports, I would have to agree that the killing was justified. If Wilson was indicted and this case went to trial, he would have been found not guilty. The prosecutor knew it, so he had a grand jury convened so it would appear that he was not being racist or bias. It didn't work.
I think its idiotic, criminal, dangerous, and unwarranted that the protesters looted, burned, and destroyed large parts of their own community. These same protesters were probably the ones who complained that the police were too aggressive in stopping them back in August. Then they complained that the police didn't do enough to stop looters from looting, rioting, and burning this place down.
I do not want to generalize. I do not want to say that all the protesters are bad. I don't want to say that all young, African American men are thugs, or that all cops are racists, because both are not not true. However, I do want to say that the looting will stop nothing, and only make things worse. OK, let the debate begin...
Well, let's take it down a different path, one focusing directly on the oddity of the recent protests, and protests that are like that around the world. Let's keep it intellectual and not any of this personal hate arguing that's been going on. This could be good because there's some of this stuff that is dang confusing to me.
What good is it to burn your own house down when the person that hurt you is in another town entirely. Why not go burn their house down instead? I really don't understand the concept of someone else hurting your town...so you go and do the rest of their work for them by burning the rest of your town down yourself. I can't comprehend why they do this.
I mean...
Protesting can be good.
Rioting and looting your own home...should make everyone scratch their heads in confusion at what you are doing.
It boggles the mind. If someone is upset, that can be understood. If someone wants to protest something, I can understand that.
However, how can be so upset that you decide your going to destroy the stores in your own neighborhood, rob your neighbors, and hurt the very ones that may be offended along with you due to what someone who is NOT in that neighborhood has done?
Wouldn't it make a LOT MORE SENSE to go to that other person's neighborhood who offended you and riot and loot it instead?
The only thing I can figure is that people who riot and loot their own neighborhoods are crazy (this is any place where people basically destroy their own homes to protest something someone someplace else did, has NOTHING to do with race, this is any protest in the past decade where we have seen very similar things. People say they are protesting, but burn their own house down with great violence instead of anything I'd consider a useful protest...heck...even burning down the OTHER people's houses in that OTHER place makes more sense).
In Ferguson, I'm not certain if the people there were actually from Ferguson or visitors from out of town. It mystifies me at some of the places that were destroyed during the Ferguson "protests" as it would seem like those places destroyed would be the places targeted by those who were pro-Wilson and anti-Brown rather than the other way around.
It's been a very puzzling thing that happened there in regards to the protests.
You're puzzled because you're assuming it is a coordinated and planned action. It's not. Reexamine the situation as one born from chaos and impulse. Then it makes perfect sense why it happens where it does.
To have rioting and looting in another place, you'd have to...
1) Know for a fact exactly when the rioting/looting will take place
2) Have control over large amounts of transportation
3) Have influence/control over the people engaging in rioting/looting
Rioting/looting is an extreme expression of impulse. It is not a planned and coordination event.
It's why college kids flip and burn other college kids cars, or damage businesses that they would normally frequent. It's why they do that when their team WINS.
Rioting/looting is also not the kernel of what is happening, but rather the result of a series of escalations. It isn't an activity unto itself. People are angry and protesting the police. They see a car and someone bangs on it or throws something at it. Someone else does the same thing. More people join in. Seconds later it's flipped or burned. The first person probably didn't START with the idea of destroying the car, but their action represents an escalation. In an angry crowd, escalation is a very easy thing to fuel.
Rioting/looting is not a rational endeavor. It is an impulsive reaction to events.
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While I have a lot to say on the subject, (I started the original thread) the discussion of race turns toxic pretty quick.
We have basically been asked to have the discussion elsewhere, especially while the office is closed for the holiday/weekend.
I would encourage everyone to take a look at the current state of protesting in the US and read up on the Miami Model of protest policing. Perhaps suggesting ways to protest for positive change might result in a more civil thread, but I suggest waiting until at least Monday, and probably taking the discussion to another site.
Just a quick note here: paizo.com is honestly probably not the appropriate place on the internet to discuss this issue, and related threads have not resulted all that well. Following this post, any posts that don't adhere to our Community Guidelines may result in us choosing to lock this thread. Given the upcoming holiday and limited staffing, I'm unsure we can properly facilitate this discussion without willingness on all participants to follow them. So be cool to each other guys.
EDIT: I'm not trying to speak for the moderators, just repeating what they said.
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You know, before anyone else decides to chime in, can we please remember that the Paizo staff are on a much deserved break with friends and family until Monday morning, and that they had to lock the last thread for excessive grar and failure for posters to be civil? Is there anything that absolutely must be said here that cannot wait until they get back?
Please?
Edit: Ninja'd by Fergie.
M'lady Slaad is correct. We can wait 48 hours.
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While I have a lot to say on the subject, (I started the original thread) the discussion of race turns toxic pretty quick.
We have basically been asked to have the discussion elsewhere, especially while the office is closed for the holiday/weekend.
I would encourage everyone to take a look at the current state of protesting in the US and read up on the Miami Model of protest policing. Perhaps suggesting ways to protest for positive change might result in a more civil thread, but I suggest waiting until at least Monday, and probably taking the discussion to another site.
Just a quick note here: paizo.com is honestly probably not the appropriate place on the internet to discuss this issue, and related threads have not resulted all that well. Following this post, any posts that don't adhere to our Community Guidelines may result in us choosing to lock this thread. Given the upcoming holiday and limited staffing, I'm unsure we can properly facilitate this discussion without willingness on all participants to follow them. So be cool to each other guys.EDIT: I'm not trying to speak for the moderators, just repeating what they said.
I'm just going to say this one thing and then I'm done.
Having discussions on race especially concerning blacks and whites on a board like this is extremely problematic as it basically comes down to a bunch of white guys / girls or generally non-black people talking to / at each other. With the exception of Freehold GM, Myself and maybe one or two other people I don't think that that having a pretty one sided discussion about race relations is productive here at all.
This community has no problem standing up to people who come here and depict the LGBT community in a negative light or standing up to posters who victim blame women and LGBT members. But this same community, with a few exceptions (I'm looking specifically at thejeff and Comrade Anklebiter among a few others) generally has no issue with doing the same to an entire community of color. Or staying relatively silent about it when it's done. It's understandable. Most people have a mother/daughter/aunt/sister in their lives and these days at least more than a few people know someone who is LGBT or at least questioning within their own groups. Not so much with black people of any real stripe at least in this community it seems. That's not an indictment guys/ladies. Just numbers it seems.
So yeah I agree. I don't think these forums are a good place to discuss racial issues at all.
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*pulls out 10 foot pole*
Not long enough.
*leaves thread*
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While I have a lot to say on the subject, (I started the original thread) the discussion of race turns toxic pretty quick.
We have basically been asked to have the discussion elsewhere, especially while the office is closed for the holiday/weekend.
I would encourage everyone to take a look at the current state of protesting in the US and read up on the Miami Model of protest policing. Perhaps suggesting ways to protest for positive change might result in a more civil thread, but I suggest waiting until at least Monday, and probably taking the discussion to another site.
Just a quick note here: paizo.com is honestly probably not the appropriate place on the internet to discuss this issue, and related threads have not resulted all that well. Following this post, any posts that don't adhere to our Community Guidelines may result in us choosing to lock this thread. Given the upcoming holiday and limited staffing, I'm unsure we can properly facilitate this discussion without willingness on all participants to follow them. So be cool to each other guys.EDIT: I'm not trying to speak for the moderators, just repeating what they said.
I'm just going to say this one thing and then I'm done.
Having discussions on race especially concerning blacks and whites on a board like this is extremely problematic as it basically comes down to a bunch of white guys / girls or generally non-black people talking to / at each other. With the exception of Freehold GM, Myself and maybe one or two other people I don't think that that having a pretty one sided discussion about race relations is productive here at all.
This community has no problem standing up to people who come here and depict the LGBT community in a negative light or standing up to posters who victim blame women and LGBT members. But this same community, with a few exceptions (I'm looking specifically at thejeff and Comrade Anklebiter among a few others) generally has no issue with...
who's this Freehold GM you speak of? Never heard of him.
More seriously, the conversation needs to be had. Less people of color being actively present makes the conversation more important not less.
But that's just me.
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While I have a lot to say on the subject, (I started the original thread) the discussion of race turns toxic pretty quick.
We have basically been asked to have the discussion elsewhere, especially while the office is closed for the holiday/weekend.
I would encourage everyone to take a look at the current state of protesting in the US and read up on the Miami Model of protest policing. Perhaps suggesting ways to protest for positive change might result in a more civil thread, but I suggest waiting until at least Monday, and probably taking the discussion to another site.
Just a quick note here: paizo.com is honestly probably not the appropriate place on the internet to discuss this issue, and related threads have not resulted all that well. Following this post, any posts that don't adhere to our Community Guidelines may result in us choosing to lock this thread. Given the upcoming holiday and limited staffing, I'm unsure we can properly facilitate this discussion without willingness on all participants to follow them. So be cool to each other guys.EDIT: I'm not trying to speak for the moderators, just repeating what they said.
I'm just going to say this one thing and then I'm done.
Having discussions on race especially concerning blacks and whites on a board like this is extremely problematic as it basically comes down to a bunch of white guys / girls or generally non-black people talking to / at each other. With the exception of Freehold GM, Myself and maybe one or two other people I don't think that that having a pretty one sided discussion about race relations is productive here at all.
This community has no problem standing up to people who come here and depict the LGBT community in a negative light or standing up to posters who victim blame women and LGBT members. But this same community, with a few exceptions (I'm looking specifically at thejeff and Comrade Anklebiter among a few others) generally has no issue with...
On the contrary, I offer suggestions that require participation.
WOW...
My post had NOTHING to do with color, and everything to do with behavior that you've seen in Ferguson...yes...but also several other places which many times (especially in Europe) have hardly ANYONE of color at all (or what you'd consider color).
It's about a behavior seen in Ferguson that makes absolutely no sense.
We don't need to go into race relations (in fact I'd prefer we don't) to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
And yet, we see it practically at least once a year...it doesn't matter the race, the creed, or religion, it seems to happen indiscriminately around the world.
Most recently was Ferguson, but it's something that is odd and weird, and trying to focus that into a racial thing, when it seems it's more something about certain people and human nature as a whole group (it doesn't seem to focus on any specific group or type of people) than anything I've noticed about race.
It MIGHT have to do with poverty vs. wealth, as that's a more defining feature of those who participate than anything else I've noticed.
It's one that hasn't really come up, and that's why? You'd think someone would stop for half a second and say...hey...this is my home...this is my friend...why do I want to hurt them for something someone who lives in a different location has done to both of us? Why don't we go and riot at their home instead and burn it down?
I mean, when I get angry...and yes, I might, my thought isn't to get so angry I blow up my car and house...I want to get even or get back at the person that made me angry. I don't do it, because mostly, that's impolite and illegal, but even when I'm not thinking, I'd rather see the person who caused the pain to have pain themselves, then cause more pain on myself.
In fact, self preservation is human nature...and what the riots in Ferguson, and other places that have happened across the world...seem to go directly against. It's puzzling to me.
If rioting is what we're discussing, let's: It is a s~~$ty way to be a human being. It is a symptom of the police not having control. It amounts to the lowest form of human identity, that of seeing yourself merely as part of a group.
All I know is that my former lord and master should be able to get Mike Brown's name right.
Shameless socialist self-promotion before the thread is closed
Comrade Francesca from NYC was disgusted when the protesters took up the chant "Show me what equality looks like/This is what equality looks like!" but I explained it to her thusly:
"What was the demo? Twenty percent black? In New Hampshire? Which is, what, 95% white? That was probably the closest thing to racial equality they have ever seen in their lives."
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What good is it to burn your own house down when the person that hurt you is in another town entirely. Why not go burn their house down instead? I really don't understand the concept of someone else hurting your town...so you go and do the rest of their work for them by burning the rest of your town down yourself. I can't comprehend why they do this.
I mean...
Protesting can be good.
Rioting and looting your own home...should make everyone scratch their heads in confusion at what you are doing.
It boggles the mind. If someone is upset, that can be understood. If someone wants to protest something, I can understand that.
However, how can be so upset that you decide your going to destroy the stores in your own neighborhood, rob your neighbors, and hurt the very ones that may be offended along with you due to what someone who is NOT in that neighborhood has done?
Wouldn't it make a LOT MORE SENSE to go to that other person's neighborhood who offended you and riot and loot it instead?
Rioting isn't about destruction, it's about being noticed, it's showing that there is nothing left to do that will draw the attention of others, much like the 1960's civil rights movement was forced to do. "Rioting is the language of the unheard," MLK Jr. This should be shown as the sign of desperation that all people of color feel when our problems and plights are ignored and our murderers are pardoned. When you riot somewhere that you hate, that's called attacking, which is what would have happened if a white boy was killed.
I'm going to leave this and this here, since these are my thoughts on things from the last threads, with backing evidence.
Also post about how you're 'not going to touch this' show that it doesn't effect you, gives you the luxury of being able to ignore this. Some of us don't have that, some of us are deeply affected and afraid at the fact that our lives matter less than others, so it'd be respectful not to make popcorn post and other such things here.
WOW...
My post had NOTHING to do with color, and everything to do with behavior that you've seen in Ferguson...yes...but also several other places which many times (especially in Europe) have hardly ANYONE of color at all (or what you'd consider color).
It's about a behavior seen in Ferguson that makes absolutely no sense.
We don't need to go into race relations (in fact I'd prefer we don't) to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
And yet, we see it practically at least once a year...it doesn't matter the race, the creed, or religion, it seems to happen indiscriminately around the world.
Most recently was Ferguson, but it's something that is odd and weird, and trying to focus that into a racial thing, when it seems it's more something about certain people and human nature as a whole group (it doesn't seem to focus on any specific group or type of people) than anything I've noticed about race.
It MIGHT have to do with poverty vs. wealth, as that's a more defining feature of those who participate than anything else I've noticed.
It's one that hasn't really come up, and that's why? You'd think someone would stop for half a second and say...hey...this is my home...this is my friend...why do I want to hurt them for something someone who lives in a different location has done to both of us? Why don't we go and riot at their home instead and burn it down?
I mean, when I get angry...and yes, I might, my thought isn't to get so angry I blow up my car and house...I want to get even or get back at the person that made me angry. I don't do it, because mostly, that's impolite and illegal, but even when I'm not thinking, I'd rather see the person who caused the pain to have pain themselves, then cause more pain on myself.
In fact, self preservation is human nature...and what the riots in Ferguson, and other places that have happened across the world...seem to go directly against. It's puzzling to me.
I was going to respond, but you clearly have your mind made up and want to adhere to your imaginary facts about these kinds of incidents and their nature. As long as you hold on to them, their nature will always puzzle you.
WOW...
My post had NOTHING to do with color, and everything to do with behavior that you've seen in Ferguson...yes...but also several other places which many times (especially in Europe) have hardly ANYONE of color at all (or what you'd consider color).
It's about a behavior seen in Ferguson that makes absolutely no sense.
We don't need to go into race relations (in fact I'd prefer we don't) to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
And yet, we see it practically at least once a year...it doesn't matter the race, the creed, or religion, it seems to happen indiscriminately around the world.
Most recently was Ferguson, but it's something that is odd and weird, and trying to focus that into a racial thing, when it seems it's more something about certain people and human nature as a whole group (it doesn't seem to focus on any specific group or type of people) than anything I've noticed about race.
It MIGHT have to do with poverty vs. wealth, as that's a more defining feature of those who participate than anything else I've noticed.
It's one that hasn't really come up, and that's why? You'd think someone would stop for half a second and say...hey...this is my home...this is my friend...why do I want to hurt them for something someone who lives in a different location has done to both of us? Why don't we go and riot at their home instead and burn it down?
I mean, when I get angry...and yes, I might, my thought isn't to get so angry I blow up my car and house...I want to get even or get back at the person that made me angry. I don't do it, because mostly, that's impolite and illegal, but even when I'm not thinking, I'd rather see the person who caused the pain to have pain themselves, then cause more pain on myself.
In fact, self preservation is human nature...and what the riots in Ferguson, and other places that have happened across the world...seem to go directly against. It's puzzling to me.
in the parts of the US where rioting happens, I have noticed a lack of physical mobility in that the people rioting usually cannot leave the immediate area on foot. The area is planned out only with car travel in mind, and It's illegal to walk on the interstate or to block traffic on any way, so poor communities become pressure cookers for events both good and bad. Today it's Ferguson. Next week it's a winning football team. After that, it's too much alcohol served at a semi private party. The rich Township down the road knows nothing of their neighbors besides what they hear on TV or read in the newspaper or though chance encounter and vice versa. Both communities are artificially sealed from one another unless you have a car, and the great distance between the two areas along with the fact that one is wealthier than the other means that interaction beyond commerce is going to be low.
Why doesn't this happen in ny? Largely because NYC is a grid(check out a map sometime) and people are able to walk from one community to another, which keeps divisiveness and tensions down. It may be a long walk, but there's nothing keeping someone in one part of town from going to another part of town to spend time with friends, even if one is relatively poor. I just did this myself for thanksgiving - a long trip from my neighborhood with turkey, trimmings, etc, to the other side of brooklyn. Good food, good friends, good times. A challenge without a car to be sure, but not impossible. In other areas it would have indeed been impossible due to a lack of public transportation. Moreover, a love of ethnic diversity when it comes to food means seeing other peoples in your neighborhood is less of a shock.
That said, I'm still tickled when a Japanese man visiting new York stares as the hungry black man devours Takoyaki and medetai by the double order while enjoying jpop that's playing in the background.
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WOW...
My post had NOTHING to do with color, and everything to do with behavior that you've seen in Ferguson...yes...but also several other places which many times (especially in Europe) have hardly ANYONE of color at all (or what you'd consider color).
It's about a behavior seen in Ferguson that makes absolutely no sense.
We don't need to go into race relations (in fact I'd prefer we don't) to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
And yet, we see it practically at least once a year...it doesn't matter the race, the creed, or religion, it seems to happen indiscriminately around the world.
Most recently was Ferguson, but it's something that is odd and weird, and trying to focus that into a racial thing, when it seems it's more something about certain people and human nature as a whole group (it doesn't seem to focus on any specific group or type of people) than anything I've noticed about race.
It MIGHT have to do with poverty vs. wealth, as that's a more defining feature of those who participate than anything else I've noticed.
It's one that hasn't really come up, and that's why? You'd think someone would stop for half a second and say...hey...this is my home...this is my friend...why do I want to hurt them for something someone who lives in a different location has done to both of us? Why don't we go and riot at their home instead and burn it down?
I mean, when I get angry...and yes, I might, my thought isn't to get so angry I blow up my car and house...I want to get even or get back at the person that made me angry. I don't do it, because mostly, that's impolite and illegal, but even when I'm not thinking, I'd rather see the person who caused the pain to have pain themselves, then cause more pain on myself.
In fact, self preservation is human nature...and what the riots in Ferguson, and other places that have happened across the world...seem to go directly against. It's puzzling to me.
In other news, I would like to talk about nationalism and the McCarthyism during the Cold War, but I would prefer if we leave Russia and communism out of the discussion.
... to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
OK, I just failed by Will save because I personally enjoy when satire gets mixed with reality.
To the best of my knowledge ZERO homes in Ferguson have been destroyed.ALWAYS check your source for comedy before using it was fact
It's because when it comes to what's been boiling underneath the surface in Fergueson, and in like places and times, you totally don't get it. And because of your built in perceptual filters, you obviously never will.
Let's see, I'm part of the most discriminated group or race in the Western Hemisphere. I'm part of the only group that actually has laws against their owning lands in parts of the US. Transportation can simply kick us off or relegate us to unwanted or other seats (much like African Americans were only allowed to be in certain seats in the 1960s...yeah...they can STILL do that to my group). We are publically slandered without most people even raising an alarm in the News, papers, and elsewhere. People assume some of those part of my group are automatically part of a criminal organization on sight half the time...even though less than .01% has anything to do with it. People can call us names in public and everyone applauds them.
Furthermore, when talking about riots, people from our continent and the South Western (Eastern part of the adjoining continent) region adjoining it, have had riots and looting on a scale that makes Ferguson look tame during the past five years. It's led to Civil War in some regions.
But, I would fall into the category that doesn't understand this looting stuff, and in fact, would respond how MANY in the nations that I'm referring to above have.
If someone attacks me or loots my place, I would go against their place.
For example, in Ferguson, if I felt my cause was strong enough to get violent, I would target the police station in the area, and take it out. The police would almost assuredly kill a few...and violence would be extreme...but if the problem is with the police, than take that particular unit out. Once police start shooting everyone...well...that's going to be far bigger news than looting your friends shop.
So, no, I don't understand it, and yes, I completely understand being oppressed. In the past year we fled our homes to avoid persecution and possibly injury and worse. It was over a different issue than race, ironically. It got better and we could return, but most of those who claim discrimination in the US thus far haven't had to do that as far as I know.
And yet, though I have had these personal things, I don't comprehend the ideas to destroy your own place in retaliation. If I were to get violent, my thoughts are to strike against those oppressing me, not to hurt those that help my cause or those who are my friends.
Some ideas posted here are things to ponder about, and are good ideas. Things such as mobility and lack of any real control in the area, but blindly tossing around accusations against those you don't know to claim that's why they don't understand...I'm not so certain that's a good thing to be doing.
It's not a racial thing that people are trying to make it out to be. It has nothing to do with race. In fact, looking at a majority of the riots in the past 5 years, the Ferguson riots are fairly tame to what's happened in other parts of the world in area which are of a different racial make up.
What you see are two different groups and the best I could say would be India in it's independence movement. You had Ghandi's movement, and they didn't understand the riots and looting either. It didn't make sense. You don't gain anything typically by doing that. It's only when you are united and refuse to cooperate. On the otherhand, you had the part of the movement that wanted to riot and loot, but before Ghandi's ideas took root, they were making very little headway. Even when they did these things when Ghandi was organizing effots, they normally hurt the movement rather than help.
Even with the violence, if you are going to be violent, then it makes sense to attack the enemy, not your friends. Ghandi and others understood, only when you are united can you make a difference. If you attack each other and divide amongst yourselves, you don't hurt those who are against you...you only hurt yourself.
... to discuss what causes someone to go insane enough to burn down their own homes...on a massive scale even.
OK, I just failed by Will save [dice=Will Save]1d20 - 10 because I personally enjoy when satire gets mixed with reality.
To the best of my knowledge ZERO homes in Ferguson have been destroyed.
ALWAYS check your source for comedy before using it was fact
What I'm referring to, isn't the actual HOUSE...but the area and neighborhood you are from or live...aka...your home.
They torched the businesses of friends and neighbors in the area...some who were actual friends of the Browns. What's even worse is that they supposedly burned the church where the Browns attended occasionally (some hypothesize these items were targeted so precisely in an Anti-Brown fashion, it had to be a supremacy group rather than the crowds...it's insane how they targeted those who supported Brown, almost as if the rioters and looters hated Brown!). The church itself was almost 3 miles from the majority of the businesses that were burned, but it still was counted as the riot area and hence the insurance refuses to pay for the damages.
This is the type of stuff I'm talking about in regards to Ferguson. However, rioting and looting in general isn't just about Ferguson, Ferguson as I stated was actually MILD compared to things that have happened worldwide...and there they also burn their homes (aka...the businesses and organizations that support them and are run by themselves and their friends).
Let's see, I'm part of the most discriminated group or race in the Western Hemisphere.OK, I'll bite... what group are we talking about here...
(Wow! I really suck at staying out of these threads!)
Given his description I would say Arab.
I wonder how he feels about the people who were (and in some parts still are) the most hated and discriminated group in the Western hemisphere. I'm talking about the Jewish, for those who were wondering.
I'm part of the only group that actually has laws against their owning lands in parts of the US. Transportation can simply kick us off or relegate us to unwanted or other seats (much like African Americans were only allowed to be in certain seats in the 1960s...yeah...they can STILL do that to my group). We are publically slandered without most people even raising an alarm in the News, papers, and elsewhere. People assume some of those part of my group are automatically part of a criminal organization on sight half the time...even though less than .01% has anything to do with it. People can call us names in public and everyone applauds them.Care to provide evidence for that this time, or are you just making crap up like usual?
Seriously, have you not seen all the anti-Arab sentiments in the US media?
Everyone thinks they are the most discriminated against. It only serves to bolster the bigoted, as divide and conquer is a basic maxim. When they came for x, I said nothing because I wasn't x; etc.
You raise a good point, Freehold. We should stand to fight injustice as human beings, not as Europeans, Americans, Asians, Arabs, Jews, etc...
However, some parts of our brains are hardwired for the "us vs them" mentality. It's a sad but true fact of life, at least until we somehow evolve past such or die trying.
When was I doing the latter here?
I don't think you were, I was thinking on a general level.
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You're still talking about it like it was planned. Like a group of responsible people got together and decided that the best way to advance their interests was to riot and burn down the area they live in.
That's not what happens. That's never what happens. People get upset. People protest. The protest is held where the people are, so they can get to it. During the protests tempers flare and some few people, individuals or small groups break things. Windows. Start fires. They do this in the area of the protest/riots because they're there and because that's where order has broken down enough to allow it.
This happens regardless of whether the thing started over a real serious civil rights issue or over a sports game.
That's ignoring the effects of actual provocateurs and people just taking advantage of the situation to loot and of the plans of the police. In Ferguson for example, much of the police presence was concentrated around the area, containing the protests and the riots to "their homes". There are also reports that peaceful protests were broken up and dispersed, while less peaceful groups weren't bothered as much.
The police in Ferguson definitely have something to gain by more rioting and less peaceful protests. It gets people talking about how the crazy black people burn down their own homes instead of how the prosecutor avoided charging the killer.
That would suggest an active plan to generate evidenciary prophaganda on the part of police in Ferguson to muddy the view of what was going on like some 'league of shadows'. Now that would be like when the south African government resorted to lacing the water supply in townships with methaqualone (quaaludes) to surpress the urge to riot. Didnt realy happen but people think it did (check out project coast wiki the only proof that matters is a 'united nations investigation' but the link is bad).
The only 'league of shadows' going on here is the internet. A bunch of crazies think this needs more violence? Lets burn down places who support the victims over the police.There has been a campaign to exact a financial toll on government in excess of the expense of prosecution of cops who kill african americans (something that could have been fixed by spending more than twenty thousand in training of individual officers to avoid paying out nine million for taking a life) - an economic war that ends in destruction of the only asset that provides the tyranical state with support (the police officer themselves at a kill rate of fifty thousand a year).
So back to our arsonists. Agent provocateurs looking to escalate this into a violent crackdown? Shooting cops with a sniper rifle would have got that. But cops are unlikely to shoot their own. Arson targeting sympathisers supporting the protestors? Halfwits targeting any location where journolists may have been seen? Possibly.
I wonder how he feels about the people who were (and in some parts still are) the most hated and discriminated group in the Western hemisphere. I'm talking about the Jewish, for those who were wondering.
I have several good friends that are Jewish.
I'm not certain if that's a slam against those who are of Near Eastern or Middle Eastern origins (or South Western Asian), but I'll take it as a misunderstanding instead.
It is true there are some that are hostile towards those of the Jewish race and religion.
However, looking at history, European Christians have been the worst towards the Jewish people than anything that's been done in the Middle East. Going over a thousand years ago, Jews and Muslims lived together in Jerusalem...it took the Crusaders running the streets red with blood to shed more Jewish blood in a week than had been done in a decade.
It was the Europeans that also caused the Holocaust.
In truth, the biggest tensions over in the Middle East between the Jews and others is a conflict of ownership. The lands and area where Israel is held, many feel should not be in Jewish hands and that the land was stolen. There ARE those that feel the Jews have a right to be there as well.
AS far as Jews elsewhere, why is or should that be a concern or problem? There are some radicals, but I believe even the Koran includes Jews in it. I think it states as far as those who are to go to heaven, as you would, that you have those who are part of Islam, but as far as the Christian and Jew are concerned, you don't know who among them will be or will not be going to heaven. It is an unknown, and so any action taken against them in a hostile fashion...needs to be very careful as you could send yourself to hell by attacking the wrong ones. You can't attack one of the Lord's own and be considered his.
Hence the idea that all Middle Easterners, or even all Muslims, hate Jews, is a stereotype and a mistake....
IN MY OPINION...of course.
I think that the radical Muslims (and note, you don't have to be Asian or Arabian to be Muslim, they have them in all continents and areas) that compose a very small amount of the whole who do hate everyone (INCLUDING other Muslims, and Asians in their respective nations who are NOT radicals...look to ISIS for a prime example) are seen as the typical instead of the exception...which is VERY unfortunate.
I can only speak from a personal experience here. I have spent some time overseas. On the Arabian Peninsula...do you know what I see or saw. I don't think I even ever discussed or heard being discussed the Jews. There WERE the americans being discussed, but I don't think anything about the Jews ever came up. There is a HUGE market for pirated goods, and sometimes hard to find things that are not pirated. They LOVE (at least the young people) American video games, movies, and goods. You see replications of them everywhere. Men probably feel much more comfortable there then a women from the west would. They are VERY conservative. Crime is VERY low. Overall, they are very much like people you would see in the West, but with slightly different traditions and culture (for example, in the West you get Saturday and Sunday off, while there you get Friday and Saturday off as the Sabbath is considered a different day). All this stupid stuff you see about them are all about the extremists and not really about the normal people.
Asians, and Middle Easterners are NOT weird, strange people. They are very much like those you know around you. They want the same things you want...freedom, happiness, and ironically, with the youth, videogames and Hollywood movies.
This is of course My OPINION on the matter, and is VERY off topic. But I thought I'd clear up that up, as the wording seemed a little...misunderstanding.
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Yes, people can complain to the airplane officials and have you booted off the plane, OR, they can try to seat you on that craft or another where they think you are least offensive.
Yes, it has happened. Yes...people have sued due to it happening to them. And yes, it still happened again after that.
And yes, until recently there were laws on the books against Asians owning land, or owning land in certain areas in some stats of the US and in some European nations.
And yes, people can refuse to sell to you in the US based only on your appearance. They say you can file a lawsuit if it's racial discrimination, but if you are Asian, apparently it doesn't go through because it [sarcasm] obviously couldn't be racial if you are Asian or anything like that [/sarcasm].
In fact, it appears many of the laws that are written to balance out racism and work to stop it, apply to many, but Asians are NOT included in them (colleges are another example where Asian's apparently don't count as being a minority...and heaven help you if you are Near Eastern in traditional garb in most of these instances).
In Europe, I suppose you've missed out on the entirety of France's moves against the Muslims living there, and some of the more anti-Islamic movements that have been occurring over the past decade?
There are also some pretty heavy anti-Asian (and Asian typically meaning more the Near East rather than the Far East) movements in other areas of Europe such as Germany and elsewhere with what are obviously racially based murders occurring and making national news there, but being written off.
But...in truth what I'm saying probably really doesn't matter. I've noticed those who turn a blind eye to it and refuse to admit it...already have their minds made up and no amount of proof, evidence, or anything else will ever have them see otherwise.
So, it's probably a waste of space that I just typed. And of course, once again, off topic.
Nothing I say is going to convince you.
YOU COULD...go and see previous posts with links to the cases and other things I posted, some more recently than others.
YOU COULD...simply read the news....
YOU COULD...simply google it.
But the fact is, as I already concluded...you made up your mind to be discriminatory already, and hence, it doesn't matter WHAT I SAY, or WHAT EVIDENCE THERE IS, or even WHAT THE REALITY IS.
You have already made up your mind.
Here's a start though...one of the top stories on Google at the moment...something a simple google, or a situation even looking at posts I've made that are further down from here on this very forum have made.
This article is merely about Asians in general (not to mention the hidden part of the Asians which people make fun of, but many times don't notice or realize are ALSO Asian Americans just as much as any other Asian).
Paradoxically, Asian Americans are considered minorities when white activists seek to challenge affirmative action but not considered minorities or contributors to diversity when other activists seek to promote it. We’re objects used to prove a political point about other ethnic groups rather than a group whose successes and failures are judged on our own.When New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio muses about reforming the city’s technical high schools to include more subjective criteria to balance out the advantages of students with “certain backgrounds,” for example, there doesn’t seem to be much consideration of the effect that might have on the Asian Americans who now dominate the system, particularly the poor ones.
And when advocates bemoan the lack of diversity in Silicon Valley, citing white and Asian American dominance, they seem to ignore the problems that Asians face in career advancement there. “Most of their employees are white and Asian men,” wrote The New York Times’ editorial board, as if Asians were not so much a contributor to diversity as a problem to be solved. The presence of Asians as a challenge to diversity obscures the problem we face in Silicon Valley: As The Washington Post’s Brian Fung notes, we’re unable to break past a “bamboo ceiling” to ascend to higher, leadership positions.
Even worse, Asian Americans are overlooked entirely when some advocates or politicians speak about minorities. There’s a deep intellectual laziness afoot when people talk about “minorities” but are referring only to Hispanic or African Americans.
“There are two reasons for this laziness, this willful blindness: One has to do with a deeply ingrained national habit where Asian Americans are an afterthought, and when not an afterthought, we are a useful pawn,” said Eric Liu, a former speechwriter for Bill Clinton and the author of A Chinaman’s Chance.
So when not used as a helpful political pawn for other ethnic groups, we’re invisible. We’re ignored.
When Americans think about undocumented immigrants, they picture Latino families, not the 1.3 million Asians who are in the country without legal status. The country’s most visible undocumented immigrant, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Jose Antonio Vargas, is from the Philippines.
Asian Americans make up some 5 percent of the American population. But there are just 13 members of Congress of Asian descent, making up just 2.4 percent of the body, according to a recent Congressional Research Service report. Without representatives from plurality-Asian Hawaii, Northern Mariana Islands, and American Samoa, there would be just eight Asian American members of Congress.
And following the resignation of Veterans Affairs Secretary Eric Shinseki, Asian Americans have no representation in the Cabinet for the first time in nearly 15 years. In Washington circles, there’s been little talk of appointing another.
The invisibility extends beyond the political to the cultural. In television and in movies, Asian Americans are still portrayed as a caricature, when they’re present at all. There was a lot of hope for ABC’s Selfie, the first network show to cast an Asian American lead—but then it was promptly canceled (much to my colleague Asawin Suebsaeng’s displeasure). There’s some optimism about ABC’s upcoming sitcom Fresh Off the Boat, modeled after food personality Eddie Huang’s memoirs—but that hope is dimmed by the long-standing treatment of Asians in popular culture.
The explanation for Asian American invisibility is complicated. And it does involve, to some extent, the community’s historical shortcomings in exercising political power. “We need to get louder and more effective, to show voice and power in politics,” Liu told The Daily Beast.
But more damagingly, our invisibility is the result of a dominant political and media narrative that suggests that “minority” means black or Hispanic—except when Asian Americans can be used as a tool to prove someone else’s point
{aside; I do support AA, I think that Asians currently are being excluded in many instances where they should be included}
If you think this is bad, a simple look up Muslim and Discrimination and cringe.
Here's a listing (including the restrictions on flying for many simply because someone didn't like how a person looked).
Some of the issues we're specifically focusing on include:
•Bans on Sharia and International law (more)
•Mosques and community centers (more) •The Park51 Islamic Cultural Center in New York City (more)•Discrimination based on appearance •Discrimination against Muslim women (more)
•Infiltration and surveillance of Mosques and Muslim communities •Suit against the New York Police Department for discriminatory surveillance of Muslim New Yorkers (more)
•Suit against the FBI for illegal surveillance in Southern California's Muslim community (more)•Congressional hearings on the so-called "radicalization" of the American Muslim community (more)
•Unconstitutional administration of the “No Fly List” (lawsuit on behalf of 15 U.S. citizens and lawful residents, all of whom are Muslim) (more)
•FBI mapping of local communities and businesses based on race and ethnicity (more)
•Anti-terrorism financing laws (more)
•Invasive questioning at U.S. borders (more)
Yes, this is a REAL list. I've linked directly to the the article.
And another article basically on the current state (written sept 2014)
Will we see an even higher number of employment discrimination claims filed by Muslim Americans? Currently over 20 percent of the claims filed with the EEOC are from Muslims, even though we comprise just 2 percent of the country.I want to be optimistic. I want to be able to say in a few years it will be better. But I don’t know if that’s true.
What I can say with confidence is that American Muslims are not going anywhere. Yes, we will denounce those who commit horrible acts in the name of our faith to make it clear their actions don’t represent us. However, our focus is pursuing our American dream just like every other American. We will become doctors, deli owners, teachers, parents, and maybe even one day, President of the United States.
And what I can also say to the bigots is that we will continue, together with the good people who stand with us, to fight your efforts to demonize and marginalize us simply because of our faith. We won’t do that because it’s demanded of us as Muslims, we will do that because it’s demanded of us as Americans.
I am fortunate, I am a mixed one...and the Asian portion is on my mothers side (interesting story on that in regards to how that happened, but that's a more cheerful story for another time). This means that I may have the looks when someone sees me, and the background and culture, but I can seek invisibility to a degree from the harassment and discrimination which strikes many of my fellows to a degree.
What's MORE interesting, is even though many Southwestern Asians can actually categorically state they are white, or legally claim it (and I think many do as it's easier to get into colleges and other places if you do that, I think I may have done that myself on a rejected application that I reapplied and redid with that categorization if I recall from long ago), they are technically part of Asia and Asians just as much as the Indians and others from Asia. It's simply they are from the NE rather than the FE.
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How very open minded of you.
And when people get discriminated against like that and sue the courts find in their favor or the airlines settle and apologize and it makes the news.
they don't win every case, and not every settlement is a loud one.