This is a long post. TL;DR? My Friend doesn't care about rules, does what he wants as a player or GM, and I'm tired of dealing with it, and getting treated like shit by him for it.
First off, the player and GM in question, is my friend. That relationship has gotten strained recently-... okay, not recently. For the last year almost.
It's gotten to the point where I'm effectively the rule police, and that's not a position I'd like to be in. Especially considering my lack of experience, both in depth and duration. This has put me in conflict with that player/GM frequently, and while I'm generally as polite as I can be without lessening my argument (polite, but as forceful as the argument needs to be), he feels no similar constraint, and will yell back, and insult me frequently.
Be it reminding him that, No, he can't cast quickened scorching ray. One, he has no spell slot for that high for it, two, he didn't have scorching ray prepared, and three, you're not a spontaneous caster, you're a wizard/cleric mystic theurge. Yes, I know you don't have it prepared, you had to ask the GM, "What's that fire spell that's Spell level 2? Scorching ray? Okay, I have three prepared. I'm going to quicken..." etc.
Or that you only get one AOO on a given action. I think he was about to rule otherwise and throw out Pathfinder's version, until I reminded him that I was all for him throwing it out. I have snap shot, improved snap shot, and 9 possible AOO with an average hit of 150 damage for a single attack (GM's, don't give your players OP artifacts and millions of gold, please), and it would be a massive buff for me. He didn't overturn it.
Or my favorite, when he didn't give the party a saving throw against a Home Brewed phantasmal killer turned creature, because no one had tried to "Disbelieve" or even mentioned that they thought it was an illusion. You know, aside from when we had, 2 sessions earlier at the very beginning.
I've posted tangentially about this here:
Wizard here.
Wizard here.
Wizard here (Turns out he wasn't casting from spellbooks, he was putting scrolls IN books, everything else is mostly right).
Wizard here (Later got in an argument with him about the candle. I said he couldn't make one anyway, we only started with 3K, he said it was only 1K gold or so. I showed him a CRB with the price in excess of what we had, and his friend said that they must have gotten it from a magazine or something).
GM here (He later, as the wizard, assaulted a party member with far more deadly force as revenge for a surprisingly similar situation, the irony was as delicious as it was disappointing that I found it delicious).
GM here.
Wizard here.
There's a few more, but, these are really the relevant ones.
He was convinced that GM's are supposed to be the player's true enemy, and while we weaned him away form that, he keeps coming back to it. And now it's true, because me and him are effectively opposing each other, which is not something I want or like.
He thinks that the base rules are no fun, and that his rulings make things more fun, contrary to what is said (I'm the only person who says anything, because no one else knows enough to call him on it, I've organized people to do so, but now I'm effectively organizing the players behind his back...), and when called on it, gets defensive, and loud.
He thinks throwing impossible bosses/monsters at us that we need to gimmick to death his "Challenging" ("Well, you didn't NEED to fight the graveknight that was destroying you, you could have destroyed it for free by using that door mechanism that I didn't adequately describe. Yes, I'm aware that most of the players are only on their 5th or so session of their first RPG, are underlevel for this and I threw it at you in a ridiculously close space") and fun. We're up against a 1,000 foot tall demon 9it dwarfs mountains) that is literally making a Solar Angel (A OP broken one too) quake in her boots, and he has told us that if we try to do our usual thing, we will all die, so we best think up a strategy that will take it out in between sessions (Mine is shoot it with arrows, yes I'm aware that is a stupid idea).
I'm tired of his throwing out the rules when he wants to, without any warning to us, I'm tired of not knowing how things work in a system that everyone should know, just because he thinks his logic and sense of fun is superior to the rules, and never ONCE consults us, the players, on anything. I'm tired of being the watch dog, and keeping an eye on things, because if I don't players die when they shouldn't, and the rules are frequently used to pick on one player in particular because the GM doesn't like him, while he treats another player with a degree of favoritism that's so blatant EVERYONE knows it. And I'm tired of not being able to talk to him about ANY of this, because he just gets pissed and stops listening. I'm tired of him changing things during gameplay for no reason other than his own logic/sense of fun, and doing it on a player by player basis...
I thought he was getting better. He had told me, after pointing out that killing a player by dm fiat is perhaps NOT the best way to go, and that the player actually had a nearly 50-50 chance to survive the encounter (the gm let the player try, and wonders on wonders, he survived easily), that I was to never contradict a ruling of his. I told him to his face, that if he ever said anything like that again, I was gone. I wasn't calling him out because he was bad, or because he sucked. I was telling him what the base rules said, and not allowing him to steamroll people. Just because he has a lot going on in his life, doesn't mean he should take it out on us, his friends. We had a moment of actual healing, everyone was happy, everything is working better-ish.
And then he threw that demon at us, and started obviously changing DCs on things mid-game, to the players detriment.
I'm tired of all of this.
But I'm even more tired of being bitter and angry about this, of being unable to separate his actions from the friend I used to know. I can't say a nice thing about him anymore, and I can see that that is affecting my other friends, I'm not able to differentiate things with him anymore. My judgement is heavily respected in my group of friends, far more than it should be, what I have to say typically has a lot of weight. Even more so, my decisions do too. If I leave his game, his game dies. No, not because I'm awesome and full of myself, I know this because several players have outright TOLD me this. And the two that remain wouldn't remain long. This could also partially destroy our other game, which has all the same people in it, with a GM whom is quite simply, the second best GM I've ever HAD. And considering this is his SECOND campaign? The guy is going to be an AMAZING GM when he gets a bit more under his belt.
I can't talk to him, I can't leave without causing an absurd and disproportionate amount of damage to our group, and I can't keep being this bitter and angry, you can see it in my writing I'm sure.
Can you help me paizo forums? Can you see something I'm missing? :(
Hell, not to throw a pity party, but just some positive encouragement might do for now.
Or just advice on how to weather it, from those who've done so already, anything really.
Also, if anyone thinks I should delete this, as it has no place here, or I'm being a whiny... wimp. lemme know, I will do so.
Editted: Spelling and such.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, no positive encouragement here.
Stop playing in his game, and tell him precisely why. Tell him pretty much everything you posted here critical of his play/GM style. If the other players hike, you'll be doing them all a favor.
You're going to have to get your friends to have your back while you talk to him about this. It probably won't help but maybe more voices will help it get the message through.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
This is a long post. TL;DR? My Friend doesn't care about rules, does what he wants as a player or GM, and I'm tired of dealing with it, and getting treated like s+%@ by him for it.
It sounds more like you need to find a new game that doesn't have him in it. You go to this game to have fun, no to have endless arguments with this 'friend'.
You're going to have to get your friends to have your back while you talk to him about this. It probably won't help but maybe more voices will help it get the message through.
Been working on that, but no one really wants to chime in with "Mom" and "Dad", and most of our friends are pretty passive and submissive. I've had a little success. Was able to argue that the Bard really should get an attempt to save himself from falling a 1,000 feet or so because of that. I don't see this suddenly working, but I'm hoping it might, eventually.
Sorry, no positive encouragement here.
Stop playing in his game, and tell him precisely why. Tell him pretty much everything you posted here critical of his play/GM style. If the other players hike, you'll be doing them all a favor.
It might come to that. No, I'm pretty sure it WILL come to that. I'm thinking this next encounter, with the frikking CR XX 1,000 foot tall demon could very well be the last straw.
He won't take it well, and he's unlikely to listen. Have to give him the chance too though.
And honestly the fact that you weren't attacking me was pretty positive by my standards, at least what's been applied to me lately. :P
It sounds more like you need to find a new game that doesn't have him in it. You go to this game to have fun, no to have endless arguments with this 'friend'.
Yeah, I'm currently breaking my number 1 rule for playing games.
If you aren't having fun, you aren't really playing a game, and you should change that.
It's the friend part, both the group and him, that's stalling my decision.
I did not read the entire post, but friends dont always make good gaming partners. Unless you are very limited on time and players the you two can play with different groups that fit your individual style of play.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If everyone is as upset as you are, then he should leave the group. He doesn't have the right to ruin everybody's fun.
If you are the only one upset, then you should leave the group. You don't have the right to change a game everyone else is enjoying because you don't feel they play right.
Uh, I've been there, it sucks. Not in your group, but in poisonous groups that broke up and ended friendships. They are awful. There is a point of no return where at least two people have their egos tied up in the game and it turns ugly. The only thing you can do is to try to save your other game. It probably won't get any better, because we are humans first and gamers second, and its usually better to end it as quickly and quietly as possible. It sounds like you are past the point of no return, I would just stop before you end up in a screaming match.
Hey this GM wouldn't happen to have a GMPC named Aerogust would he?
Hey this GM wouldn't happen to have a GMPC named Aerogust would he?
No, but, if it did, I wouldn't confirm anyways. XD
So there are two reasonable (three total) approaches you can take here. I'll start with the one I must emphasize I do not recommend ever doing.
Ruin the game in the most spiteful, petty manner possible. This has been done well exactly once to the best of my knowledge by the only man to "win" Call of Cthulhu. Eventually his fellow players got in on the fun and good times were had by most. If you're curious just look for "Old Man Henderson". Unless you think you're that inspired this is pretty much always a terrible idea.
Yeah, I'm aware of that, and I could never do that. XD
That type of thing is funny to read, but holy crap. I'd want to punch that guy. XD
Realistic advice part deux! Make your own fun. Stop playing Pathfinder, start playing whatever hideous abomination your GM is running. Since you don't actually know what it is (yay constantly changing houserules!), just turn off your brain, hurl yourself into melee with enemies suicidally (better with wizards!), and make sure to bring in SMASHY MAN THE 111th after SMASHY MAN THE 11th dies. Don't bother giving them backgrounds. You can also go with the muscle wizard (the barbarian who casts spells like "fist" and "magic missile" which comes in handy rock form), the alchemist who runs into melee and bombs his own square, etc. The difference between this one and petty spite is that this one is done to have fun and hopefully have fun with your fellow party members. Be silly, be suicidal, and go for the death high score. Bonus points if you can trick the GM into killing you based on his rule changes. I recommend a vest made of alchemist's fire vials, I promise you he'll hunt down a way to break them all at once. If called on your behavior, make sure you have at most 7 wisdom and claim it's...
I like that third option, but it would end up leaning too close to option 1 with this GM. He takes people's unwillingness to problem solve like he does as being bad wrong fun. he's already genuinely mad and frustrated with our group for being a inexperienced group of pathfinder newbies (For the most part), and not being capable of Machiavellian plots. The second part is that very little of any of this targets me directly, instead it's mostly applied to the whole party, or too one player in particular.
Also it's damn near impossible to stay dead in his campaign. I never realized how much having your character cheat death scott free when it's clear they should not have aside from DM fiat, can actually be detrimental to a game.
... Now I really want to make a Bloodrager with low Int and Wis though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I agree with rknop.
Bring it forward as having different play styles. Avoid being judgmental when talking about it. Allow the others to continue playing and do nothing that could be construed as trying to entice them away.
If you want an exit strategy, have your character be a distraction for the demon. Draw it away from the other characters so that they can examine where it was summoned from and hopefully get a clue. Your character gets splatted in a hopefully interesting way, and the others get a shot at doing something about the problem.
Find other activities to do with your friend, something you both enjoy. Movies, card games, whatever works for the two of you.
Find another group to play RPGs with, one that is more in line with the style you like to play.
Friends are worth keeping, and the game is getting in the way of that.
There are two elements here. One is the group the person in question gms. The other is the group the person in question plays in. They are related but you sort of have to approach both a little differently.
First and foremost, if you expect fallout if you leave the game that could affect the game you actually like, talk to everyone, especially the gm first. Explain what you've explained. See what they think, where they are at. Heck they might all be on the same page.
Then talk to the person in question away from the game. Preferably in person. Explain you arent enjoying the game. Explain the fact that play style differences are causing tension in your actual friendship and that isnt a good thing. There really isnt a reason to condemn or blame him. Just break it off. Gaming is a relationship. Leaving a game is breaking up with someone. You can shout and throw things, but it isnt going to do anyone any good. Leave gracefully. If you can go to a party where an ex will be, you can play in a game with a gm whose game you left. Just treat it similarly.
You have apparently tried to solve this before. For whatever reason it didn't succeed, and absent some other major factor that changes things, it is continue not to work.
Your #1 goal should be to stop playing in his game, which is obviously very bad for you as an individual and bad for your friendship. You probably should have gracefully exited some time ago. Your second goal should probably be to try and not damage your friendship further, possibly even repair it.
Extrication should be easy enough. Simply let him and the others know that you will be unable to join that game in the future. Don't throw any blame around or make it anyone's fault, if pressed simply say that you aren't having fun or the game is more stressful than you can deal with right now. I recommend withdrawing from the game via an email if you think you will have difficulty in person. Absolutely do not try to get everyone or anyone else to walk out of the game or cause it to end. If it ends because you leave, that isn't your fault, but don't try to make that happen. You leaving the game is about you, no one else.
Then, not too long after, make an effort to do something fun with this friend, something you both enjoy and that doesn't have these issues. Disagreements about rules and play styles is not worth losing a friend over.
Heresy I know, but perhaps if you try suggesting a different system for him to GM? It potentially might have the same issues with the Machiavellian plots and serpentine twists/ boss encounters, but maybe a less rules heavy or complex system could be how he envisions the fights going.
He could be a bit bored of the "I hit for XXX damage" or "Save Vs. XXX" type of actions that players typically do, instead wanting something more dynamic. Of course there does seem to be other problems, favouritism, communication, etc.
First of all, I appreciate the responses, especially how neither I or the other person in question were dumped upon. I really do appreciate that. :)
I'm going to give it one last chance, the next session with the demon. Depending on how that goes, I'll either tough it out but take a break if he starts improving again or if he doesn't improve again I'll talk to him again in whatever way I can, and make a final decision based off the talk.
Either way, temporarily or permanently, I will be leaving the game after this encounter.
I really hope he listens, because the rest of the party feels much the same way as I do. 2 of the 3 whom actually show up consistently have out-right told me they only stay because they don't want to cause drama in our group of friends, and because I'm there. If I leave, they will to, not because I want them too, but because they want too, and I can't exactly order them to stay. XD
And yes, I have let this go on too long. And yes, it does bug me more than the others, though it does bug them too. I desire fairness and harmony amongst friends before all else, and actively work to try and help people in our friends group as much as possible to promote that. It's not being altruistic, I'm at my happiest when everyone around me is happy too, so I generally try to make every situation one where everyone wins and everyone is happy with the outcome. Understandably, having one friend who's effectively engaging in bullying behavior towards one person, favoritism to another, and generally unfair behavior to all... pushes my buttons more than it does for the other players.
A break will be good regardless of the outcome of this next session, and I hadn't considered it till you guys suggested it. Thanks so much.
I'd say this question is answered, and thanks again for your help and advice. :)
Personally, I think he's running the wrong system. I'm much more at his end of the spectrum than yours on the whole "they're not rules, they're guidelines" thing. Pathfinder doesn't suit that approach, in my view, unless everyone in the group likes to play that way.
You could suggest he run swords and wizardry, 5E or another system designed to be heavily reliant on DM fiat. It might bug you less if he wasn't breaking rules but inventing stuff as the game system expects.
You mentioned causing an extreme amount of fallout damage to the group by quitting. What sort of damage are you expecting, and what are somethings you could to minimize the damage while still maintaining your exit strategy?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Rent the movie Zero Charisma and sit down and watch it with your friend. Laugh, snort derisively, laugh some more, and at the end look him square in the eye and say, "don't be THAT guy."
And honestly the fact that you weren't attacking me was pretty positive by my standards, at least what's been applied to me lately. :P
Dude, I'm 100% on your side on this. This guy is a colossally douchey GM and deserves to have the rug pulled out from under him.
Sorry, no positive encouragement here.
Stop playing in his game, and tell him precisely why. Tell him pretty much everything you posted here critical of his play/GM style. If the other players hike, you'll be doing them all a favor.
Pretty much the bottom line.
I do recall one DM who played like this, and eventually all the other players stopped taking his game seriously and started doing silly (including suicidal) things when faced with over-powered monsters at low level. Once you stop taking the rules, or him, seriously and start breaking them the way he does, as well as treating his terrifying threats as if they were cartoon monsters (it doesn't matter if your character dies, you can always create a new one), it defeats his exercise of one-upmanship. Then he'll either laugh with you and get the point, or remove himself in a rage.
I'd walk away from this GM ASAP. I'd tell him and every other player why, and be very clear about it. He being a friend, I'd emphasize that while we may spend time together doing other stuff, our RPG gaming styles are incompatible and it's simply not fun to play with him.
I had this kind of situation one day. One of our friend decided that his fun was to go random, kill us, deus ex machina. The game was fun at the start, then he shifted to some kind of door-monster-treasure game.
I talked to him three times, each time he said: but I have to made the game fun for me too! (What he mean was: I must win). I dropped the game for a year, making my own group. Best decision.
Sadly,I present the bad one. After a year, he asked if a could GM a game for him and our friends. Our friends are good players and enjoy RP . I expected his mentality of ''I must win'' to have calmed down. I was wrong. The same scenario started again. A castle full of hostage? Door-monster-no treasure?! Why I killed the boss! Ok, the hostages are all dead, but who care? For the greater good! I stopped that game after one year, because of him. I tolerated his play style because others were having fun.
Now we play boardgame with him, since the ''I most win'' mentality is normal. All that for: Find people who share your play style and start a game. Even if the GM have hard time, you'll have more fun.
(Sorry for my bad english, being a french native speaker can be counter intuitive when writing in english)
Sometimes you just have to walk away from campaigns that have problematic players. I walked away from a Call of Cthulhu campaign last year because one of the players did everything she could to keep all attention on her, keeping us from getting anything done. The GM didn't know how to control her, and she kept getting worse, so I walked.
Tell him that his campaigns aren't fun and make him be a player. Some people just aren't good at being a GM.
Alternatively, call him on his BS. Rules are rules, unless he wants to start house-ruling things and if people agree to the house rules, then catalog them and use them against him.
Things like when he didn't throw out the rules for AoOs because you would have benefitted too. Next time, don't warn him, just write down every rule change he makes and use it against him. "Oh, you get as many AoOs a round as you want? Well then, I kill everything on its turn."
"The DC improved by two? Well, so does mine because I am casting it again like he did. Mine doesn't why does his? A feat? Ok, I retrain one of mine to that inbetween sessions."
If he ever calls you out on it, explain that you are just applying his rules to you. Wait to see how long it takes for him to snap or just ruin the game for other people, at which point they will support you deposing him.
Rent the movie Zero Charisma and sit down and watch it with your friend. Laugh, snort derisively, laugh some more, and at the end look him square in the eye and say, "don't be THAT guy."
I am watching this now. I really dont like the main character.