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I've always been bothered by the idea that certain spells are simply arbitrarily "evil" regardless of the purpose they're used for. For example, if you cast summon monster V and summon a demon in order to save an innocent person from danger, that's an evil act. Casting infernal healing to save someone's life is an evil act, and it's evil to use create undead to provide tireless laborers to harvest food for a starving community.
Now, I don't want to just remove this aspect of the game. There should be evil magic, and this magic should be avoided by good characters except in dire circumstances, when they are willing to commit an evil act for the greater good. So I've come up with a few flavor-based rules to govern these spells and define why they're evil.
In my world, there is a barrier between the Material Plane and the lower planes of the Abyss and the Nine Hells, which prevents demons and their ilk from crossing over without assistance from mortals. Every time you summon a demon, even if the creature is completely controlled by the caster (as with summon monster), this act damages the barrier between worlds, potentially letting another demon (or more) slip through somewhere else. When a caster creates an undead creature, regardless of their intentions, this causes unbearable torment to the creature's soul in the afterlife (and for some undead, like ghosts or wraiths, the soul is physically forced back onto the Material Plane as the undead).
I haven't really come up with a good idea for infernal healing, though. Other people have made similar threads and suggested "it should take those hit points from someone else in the world somewhere!" but I don't like that idea. I also would rather not give it the same evil rider as the summoning devils one - I think it'd be more interesting to give it its own evil twist.
Any ideas or suggestions for what evil side effects infernal healing or other evil spells without directly evil effects might have? I'm curious to see what other people come up with!
One idea may be to have the original founder of infernal healing, Asmodeus, (Or your stand in for him) grow more powerful.
The problem I'd have with making Infernal Healing evil, is that a sorcerer with the Infernal bloodline has a nether being connection through the bloodline, though the sorcerer is not necessarily evil, in fact could be a good aligned person. What happened to an ancestor that put infernal in the blood has no direct connection through act nor alignment with a given sorcerer. I wouldn't want to see a potentially good sorcerer to be forced to enact evil powers simply due to bloodline.
Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.
The problem I'd have with making Infernal Healing evil, is that a sorcerer with the Infernal bloodline has a nether being connection through the bloodline, though the sorcerer is not necessarily evil, in fact could be a good aligned person. What happened to an ancestor that put infernal in the blood has no direct connection through act nor alignment with a given sorcerer. I wouldn't want to see a potentially good sorcerer to be forced to enact evil powers simply due to bloodline.
While that is an excellent point, I actually like the idea that someone born with devil's blood and cursed with infernal magic would need to struggle against morality when he uses his dark powers. Infernal bloodline magic shouldn't be a carefree walk in the park - it should feel as vile as its source.
Of course, this is all flavor. The Infernal sorcerer isn't gonna get "evil" forcibly marked on his character sheet, but if he bites his lip and hesitates before using his cursed magic to save his friend, knowing the true cost of his actions... well, I think that's awesome. And if you ever get comfortable with the fact that "Ah well, the suffering this spell causes is just collateral damage, I shouldn't worry about it" then your temptation towards evil becomes all the easier. After all, if you're comfortable with a small evil act, the next, slightly eviler act is just a short step away... precisely how evil, devilish magic should feel.
How about causing temporary but stark changes in personality, inclining the healee towards violent, cruel behavior? You know, a hero becomes a jerk, a jerk becomes an ''evil'' jerk, etc.?
It'd be roleplay-dependent, but no worse I reckon than helms of alignment changing or the effects of a suggestion spell.
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Asmodeus? yes perhaps the casting of infernal healing could require a contract. The contract could cost you a sliver of your soul in exchange for a little more life, a little more healing.
Perhaps with every time you receive infernal healing, the target of the spell gains a 1% cumulative chance that a raise dead won't work on him, and his soul will be transferred to the care of Asmodeus......
Infernal Healing requires you bless a creature with unholy water or the blood of a devil. You're literally using evil power to heal someone. Would you prefer the caster have to draw an unholy symbol into the flesh of the target? That the caster has to make a small animal sacrifice to a devil?
There's good explanations why summoning evil creatures and creating undead is evil.
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What's morally wrong about drawing an unholy symbol? What harm does that actually cause? What's morally wrong about pouring unholy water on someone? Does this impinge on someone's freedom, or comfort, or security?
"Inherently evil" isn't interesting. It's not good storytelling and it doesn't make characters hesitate due to the consequences of their actions.
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One thing I always go with is that spells with an alignment descriptor are literally using that as a component. An infernal healing is not just healing someone, it is healing powered by the raw evil stuff of the pit. When you heal a man with it that disgusting feeling is that raw unadulterated sick of the universe is both binding to your being and re knitting you back together.
With that in mind I've always played that use like that corrupts and effects the user, leaving it's mark. When I talk to characters who use evil spells as a GM and give them advice I let it color the advice I give them and encourage them to use it more as their alignment falls down the sliding scale. You like to use animate dead? Cool, it'll mess with the world around you, it will color your actions and the way others see you, and if you keep fiddling with evil spells it will encourage you to use them more and in ways more in keeping with their alignment.
I don't want to force the character to be more evil. I want to actually tempt them. Evil powers (infernal healing in particular) can be very powerful and very useful. I want my players to want that power, and realize that by doing so they are truly doing something wrong. And do it anyway, because moral conflicts are fun.
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Infernal Healing requires you bless a creature with unholy water or the blood of a devil.
Eschew materials.
The target of infernal healing is forced to listen to 1 minut per healed hit point of infernal whispers in his head muttered by a thousand voices in a thousand tongues, all of which he can somehow subconsciously understand at that very moment.
A weak-willed victim may be compelled a demonic cult, go insane or commit suicide to make them stop. (Basically only on a natural 1)
A stronger target may become shaken or gain a random phobia.
Finally, those with a determined, unshakable desire to resist this mental attack may just come out unharmed.
Each minute spent this way increases the DC by 1. The roll is made at the end of the effect.
If it's a home game, you can make each use of infernal healing an increasing chance of attracting the attention of an evil outsider. When they finally do "cross the line" they might not know it, but an evil outsider might begin planning or watching or stalking ...
That's just punishing them for using the spell, though. I want them to like the spell. It's an evil spell, it should tempt them to use it despite its vile consequences.
What's morally wrong about drawing an unholy symbol? What harm does that actually cause? What's morally wrong about pouring unholy water on someone? Does this impinge on someone's freedom, or comfort, or security?
"Inherently evil" isn't interesting. It's not good storytelling and it doesn't make characters hesitate due to the consequences of their actions.
We're talking about a game setting where morality takes physical form. Where inherent evil does exist. Where some creatures literally embody the pursuit of committing evil acts.
I do think using the blood of a sacrifice works as a material component.
What's morally wrong about drawing an unholy symbol? What harm does that actually cause? What's morally wrong about pouring unholy water on someone? Does this impinge on someone's freedom, or comfort, or security?
"Inherently evil" isn't interesting. It's not good storytelling and it doesn't make characters hesitate due to the consequences of their actions.
Inherent evil really IS the crux of the matter and moreover it's an artifact left over from the very beginning of D&D. Orcs and goblins are inherently evil. How do we know? Detect Evil tells us so. Kill them!
Is it interesting? Enh. Your mileage may vary with your philosophy. But evil isn't necessarily just impinging on someone's freedom, comfort or security. In a more medieval sense, it's INVITING something else in. Drawing an unholy symbol is making evil that much more "real" in the world. Uttering "evil" words is inviting an evil spirit within you, so others should make the sign against the evil eye, etc.
Let's not forget the material component of Infernal Healing is demon's blood. How does the caster get this component? Why, through the evil act of summoning, bargaining for, purchasing or otherwise getting a substance that is inherently evil, even if just from someone else (who must be evil, or he wouldn't have it). When evil becomes tangible and quantifiable, it actually makes storytelling a bit easier (if a little less interesting).
I myself like to imagine that using Infernal Healing causes nasty, painful scars that flare up whenever the recipient says or does something good--reminding him or her that they accepted such magic and that dark agents have a little hook into their immortal soul...
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Inherent evil does exist but players don't care about it. Lawful good wizards happily use infernal healing with no hesitation because they don't see it as an evil act. It's "technically evil" but it literally hurts nobody.
We're also talking about a game where I can change the order of things, because I am the GM. :P And I want to eradicate inherent evil... or rather, make inherent evil have non-inherent evil qualities.
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I myself like to imagine that using Infernal Healing causes nasty, painful scars that flare up whenever the recipient says or does something good--reminding him or her that they accepted such magic and that dark agents have a little hook into their immortal soul...
Oooh... I like that. I like that a lot. Maybe the scars don't hurt as long as they're not doing any good acts...
Again, I recommend an amplification of the subject's cruel, violent, selfish feelings as a result of a spell for a temporary time after it's cast.
Hmmm... maybe a save negates, and a target aware it's being cast gets a situational bonus to try to resist it? Again, I feel it's a good reason for an otherwise-innocuous spell to have some side effects beyond having a big fat evil stamped on it just 'cause.
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As part of the casting of Infernal Healing you must collect a small sample of blood from the recipient. A drop on a piece of paper is fine. (If the recipient has no bloody wounds, then you must cut them.) Later, that bloody item will disappear from your possessions (no action required on your part). The act of casting Infernal Healing is agreeing to the terms of this contract.
What happens to the blood? I don't know, but it can't be good. Both healer and healee are now part of the greater plan of Evil.
As an aside, what happens when a friend lets you do illegal downloads on his computer. Usually nothing, but if the RIAA comes after you it becomes a world of hurt.
It's up to the GM if something happens, but I'm sure everyone has heard the stories of some guy that got healed and then years later was torn apart by invisible demons on the street...
I agree with the intent of this thread, and see some tempting ideas in here, but haven't come to a conclusion yet. Putting this down for later consideration.
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Flavor Mechanic that was inspired by playing with Doomed Hero years ago.
Arcane Magic healing hurts, plan and simple, you are using non creation energy to interact with life.
Divine Magic Healing doesn't hurt, the energy of life is part of life.
What I would propose is that Infernal Healing is evil because it is a Bastardization of Divine Healing Magic. It's converting life energy into arcane to mend the body. Pretty much you're taking time from the victim's lifespan overall to cure them in the moment.
alternatively, the spell is evil, because the recipient is partially demonic while healing. in my games, a being under the affects of Infernal Healing is smite-able.
Coming back to playing with Doomed Hero is the difference in evil by nature versus evil by choice. The Magus/Sorcerer/wizard who casts Infernal Healing to save a life is not committing an evil act, despite using an evil tool. The cleric/inquisitor/war-priest who waterboards an enemy with Create Water, is doing something evil with a good tool.
Hope that is some good food for thought.
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Components: M (A Kitten)
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Components: M (A Kitten)
That reminds me of a spell I wrote for BoHR: Reapers, steal life. I told my friend reading it "This is an [evil] spell that's really evil." He said "What, it lets an undead come back to life and then immediately return to undead form when you kill the human form. What's evil about that?" And I asked "Did you read the components carefully?"
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I've never really understood why there's so much debate about infernal healing. The spell invokes the powers of Hell to briefly imbue the recipient with a small fraction of a devil's infernal powers. By any standard, using the powers of Hell is an evil act.
In my home game, I've replaced the text of the spell description with the following, to draw a slightly heavier line about what the spell is actually doing...
You anoint a wounded creature with unholy water or devil’s blood, imbuing it with a devil’s fast healing 1 for the spell’s duration. This spell cannot heal damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells with the good descriptor. While the spell is in effect, the target gains an evil aura as if it were an evil-aligned creature of the same level (see detect evil for details). The target can also feel the evil of the spell as it works on his or her body, as tempting images of greed, lust, envy, wrath, etc. fill the subject’s mind. Occasional use of this spell does not necessarily have long-term effects on the target’s alignment.
In my game, the spell temporarily imbues the subject with a fragment of a devi's soul. That's what causes the fast healing, and also the alignment aura. It's also why the spell can't heal the same kinds of damage a devil can't heal. Both casting and acceptance of this spell is an evil act. A minor act of evil, but it's still evil.
If a character receives the spell, I'll actually describe one of the images-- usually it's of the PC succumbing to temptation in a way that's according to that character's personality. (e.g. "You have a vision of yourself at the marketplace. The merchant turns away from you for a moment, and you nonchalantly pick up an expensive bauble and slip it in your pocket and casually walk away. You smile to yourself in satisfaction that it was so easy to rob this idiot. You think to yourself, 'If he can't keep his merchandise safe, it's his own fault if he's robbed!'")
Asmodeus released this spell into the world to make people think that he's not such a bad guy after all-- and to make them willingly fall into his clutches. The fact that this spell causes so much debate on the boards about whether it's really evil just makes the Prince of Darkness smile.
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It could grant the nearest non-allied infernal creature fast healing as well (no range limit).
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I'm now kind of tempted of throwing some fluff for Infernal Healing causing a creature to become suffused with infernal energies, which makes them liable to sire tieflings. While a tiefling can be good, the person who's using Infernal Healing all the time is potentially consigning their progeny to be hated, reviled and rejected from almost all societies.
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It could grant the nearest non-allied infernal creature fast healing as well (no range limit).
Or just let's them know direction and distance to the caster.
Here's something simple to make it evil-
Don't make it obviously evil.
Make it have little to no visual effect.
Make it an easy temptation, one where the only compromise is a vaguely evil ritual to pour unholy water on someone's head.
Make it that easy spell that makes other evil spells not look so bad...
Just a slightly bigger compromise then the last...
In my opinion, if you want punishing evil options, make them tempting.
Reminds me of a rpg-like game I played before- it had a rather creative system to deal with this.
Somewhat early in the game, you gain the option to use dark, evil powers drawn from your hatred of the enemy.
They can usually end any common battle in one use, and bosses in only a few.
When it first shows up, it's the only way to defeat the boss you fight there, and for that one use, it's free.
The cost the rest of the time? 1 point off your max hp. Permanently.
If you collect all the health up items in the game (you have to go through the game 3 times to get everything, though.) the max is 1000. You cannot get any more- each point is truly lost forever.
But, if you saw this option all the time, you'd know better, right?
So... The game only showed it to you when you were nearly dead, or you've taken more hits then you've dealt.
I mean, I'm almost losing here, so one little slip of this trigger... I can afford it.
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Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.
Like, any wound casted by infernal healing is inflicted on the dead in hell, speeding up their process of becoming Lemures? In other words, infernal healing speeds up the rate at which hells armies are formed while also tormenting dead people.
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Given the devilish history of infernal healing, I would make something contractual: the healer or the healed have to agree to listen attentively to a 1 minute sales pitch by a devil at a time of the devil's choosing (and person who agreed and his/her associates can make no attempt to harm or enchant the devil). Failure to do so negates the healing (the healed person takes damage equal to the healing, no save or way to reduce it) and the person who agreed takes 100 hp hellfire damage (no save or way to reduce it). So if the party uses infernal healing, and gets in a fight with devils, it can go bad in interesting ways.
I'll add to this idea.
Set it up so that infernal healing needs to be pre-cast (say, 1 minute casting time?) and that the deal needs to be made and agreed to in advance (if they don't agree, the following doesn't take place).
From then on, as a full round action, that character can invoke the fast healing and the previously-agreed to deal at the same time.
If the character somehow bends the deal so that it works in their favour, they've outsmarted the devil, and more power to them. Evil begets evil!
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You anoint a wounded creature with unholy water or devil’s blood, imbuing it with a devil’s fast healing 1 for the spell’s duration. This spell cannot heal damage caused by silver weapons, good-aligned weapons, or spells with the good descriptor. While the spell is in effect, the target gains an evil aura as if it were an evil-aligned creature of the same level (see detect evil for details). The target can also feel the evil of the spell as it works on his or her body, as tempting images of greed, lust, envy, wrath, etc. fill the subject’s mind. Occasional use of this spell does not necessarily have long-term effects on the target’s alignment.
When does anyone ever keep track of that?
Maybe it could cause crippling pain to the person healed, so bad that they feel the healing isn't worth the price, while providing a euphoric sense of pleasure to the caster. This would influence you to torture people you heal just to get the pleasure again, like a drug. Eventually you would injure people so you can heal them. I'm going to do this in my campaign, it was just off the top of my head. I'd never really thought about this until now.
The best bet seems like it would be to play up the material components of the spell. Others suggested blood sacrifice, which is great. In addition, your own idea of causing pain to the recipient as they heal (since they gain fast healing it takes more time than a cure spell) would really drive home the harm. Leaving some kind of scar to remind those who have used it that they're connected to hell, even in some minuscule way, also serves the purpose.
Maybe it could cause crippling pain to the person healed, so bad that they feel the healing isn't worth the price, while providing a euphoric sense of pleasure to the caster. This would influence you to torture people you heal just to get the pleasure again, like a drug. Eventually you would injure people so you can heal them. I'm going to do this in my campaign, it was just off the top of my head. I'd never really thought about this until now.
Oooh, that's a great idea!
How about causing temporary but stark changes in personality, inclining the healee towards violent, cruel behavior? You know, a hero becomes a jerk, a jerk becomes an ''evil'' jerk, etc.?
It'd be roleplay-dependent, but no worse I reckon than helms of alignment changing or the effects of a suggestion spell.
This is the one I like best. instead of just giving the character an 'evil aura'... he actually IS evil for that minute with all the dark thoughts and intentions. They may or may not ACT on those desires... because of safety reasons and whatnot, but when it wears off, they'll definitely REMEMBER being evil for that time...
Definitely a drawback if it's discussed that we should restrain the wounded barbarian before we cast this spell on them... O.o
Maybe it could cause crippling pain to the person healed, so bad that they feel the healing isn't worth the price, while providing a euphoric sense of pleasure to the caster. This would influence you to torture people you heal just to get the pleasure again, like a drug. Eventually you would injure people so you can heal them. I'm going to do this in my campaign, it was just off the top of my head. I'd never really thought about this until now.Oooh, that's a great idea!
I'm not sure this even fits the flavor. Who provides Infernal Healing? Well that would be Asmodeus of course. Now, Asmodeus is not one to cause needless pain to someone being healed, and would certainly not want people to be hurt 'just because' That's not very Lawful.
Now, while I agree that the healer might feel Euphoria, I'm not sure a visible consequence would or should be apparent. Asmodeus wants to use guile to get people into Hell. He's the god of contracts after all, and would love to use all sorts of loopholes that AREN'T NOTICEABLE to mortal eyes. Why would he ever remind a person that they are committing an evil act? Just let them live out their days in bliss... untill one day they wake up in hell.
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Let's not forget the material component of Infernal Healing is devil's blood. How does the caster get this component? Why, through the evil act of summoning, bargaining for, purchasing or otherwise getting a substance that is inherently evil, even if just from someone else (who must be evil, or he wouldn't have it).
Or you could kill devils. That's a good way to get devil's blood.
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Casting the spell could cause all plant life with 5-10 ft blacken and die, insects to roll over and die, and small animals to suffer in pain.
The spell literally draws life out of the world around the caster in order to heal the target.
Plant life which regrows in that spot is corrupted and poisonous, and possibly becomes an invasive species.
Components: M (A Kitten)
A cat costs 3 copper pieces in the Adventurer's Armory. Eschew Materials eliminates the need for a kitten. Therefore, I suggest that the material component be 101 coppers' worth of freshly-butchered cat veal. Half a pound of "meat" costs 3sp, so you'd need about 28 ounces of cat meat to prevent Eschew Materials from ignoring it.
So there we go. Live kittens are too cheap for it to work, but the moment you slaughter them their meat becomes a fungible resource. Find a two-pound cat and you're set for your infernal healing.
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Pehaps the healing come from some where, it increase the sufflering of the dead in hell or it Mills a baby seal.
So I get healed but someone somewhere that I don't know pays for it?
I just realized something. Book of the Damned Volume 3 states that "animal spirits" are 25 gp a pop. Cats cost 3 copper, toads 2cp, and rats 1cp each. Centipedes are also cheap, but as mindless vermin they'd be worth only 10 gp.
So, we can get massive batches of our soul ore extremely cheap, especially when we get the capital to set up a farm. The problem is now to mine it. Devourers and night hags can both do so for free with innate abilities, but they need to be hired, bribed, domianted, or otherwise controlled. A necromancer can control undead and make a devourer, but it takes create greater undead at CL 20, and even with CL boosts I'm sure I have kingdoms to plunder at the level I could make one. However, a night hag is an outsider, so I could bind it or bargain with it through planar ally/binding. Excellent.
If someone dies while under the effect if Infernal Healing, they go to Hell with a head start on becoming a Devil.
They can still be raised, all that stuff. But no matter how Good you are, this spell risks a Soul.
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One thing I would suggest is that creatures with a subtype or aura don't get the side effect. So an [Evil] Cleric can't just spend all day every day casting Summon Monster and expecting the armies of hell to win... but if they can trick a neutral guy into doing it...
What id a Tiefling uses it? Why is it Evil?
Frankly I think they should just rename it and roll on, stop everyone having such a big QQ about it.