The Spheres of Power system should be out in a month or so. It's a system that replaces Vancian spellcasting with setting neutral at-will abilities that you can augment with spell points and talents. It also has a system of drawbacks, which allow the GM to essentially invent how magic works in their campaign. For example, a GM could say that every spell requires a Craft (calligraphy) check to write the spell on a scroll before casting or that every spell requires a magical implement or a minor blood sacrifice.
Dreamscarred Press did Psionics, which feels like using a mana bar. All your low level powers can be scaled up in DC and damage through the use of power points. That way, a 2nd or 3rd level blasting power is all you need for damage for your entire career.
They also are in the process of making two other alternate magic systems. Words of Power and Veilweaving.
Veilweaving: The forming of magic into a semi-physical objects called Veils that grants special powers similar to spells or magic items. Belts that grant regenerating temporary hit points, headbands that shoot fire, gloves that create pits in the grounds, necklaces that allow you to breath fire. Every morning you can change which Veils you create for the day. The Veils themselves are infinite use.
Words of Power: Basically, classes with infinite use spells that aren't crazy powerful, but still pretty good. Done through the use of a check similar to a skill check, where the more you beat the DC for the spell by, the more powerful it becomes. Example: Summoning spectral knives to fly at the foe. For ever 6 you beat the DC by, add another knife.
The Spheres of Power system should be out in a month or so. It's a system that replaces Vancian spellcasting with setting neutral at-will abilities that you can augment with spell points and talents. It also has a system of drawbacks, which allow the GM to essentially invent how magic works in their campaign. For example, a GM could say that every spell requires a Craft (calligraphy) check to write the spell on a scroll before casting or that every spell requires a magical implement or a minor blood sacrifice.
I just looked this up. This very concept excites me, and I think I will be purchasing a copy as soon as it is published.
The Spheres of Power system should be out in a month or so. It's a system that replaces Vancian spellcasting with setting neutral at-will abilities that you can augment with spell points and talents. It also has a system of drawbacks, which allow the GM to essentially invent how magic works in their campaign. For example, a GM could say that every spell requires a Craft (calligraphy) check to write the spell on a scroll before casting or that every spell requires a magical implement or a minor blood sacrifice.
That does actually sound cool! Who is developing it?
I too have recently found out about Spheres of Power. Right now it's on sale for the pre-order. If you do purchase the preorder, they give you access to their site to see what they have going on so far. It looks pretty good to me, making me more excited for the book.
Spheres of Power is developed by Drop Dead Studios. The book was funded thanks to Kickstarter. I was one of the backers and saw it since early development. They spent a lot of work playtesting, balancing, and designing the talents so you can be creative with the spell effects. I'm impressed with how far it's come along. You can download a preview of it here, which has the basic rules and a couple of spheres. D20pfsrd is selling the PDF.
Hm, now I wanna add baddies to my campaign that use Spheres as "forbidden magic."
I know Rogue Genius came out with their spell point system. Are there any other examples of Non-Vancian spell casting rules in Pathfinder, 3PP, homebrew, or otherwise?
Technically, Oracles and Sorcerors (and other spontaneous casters) are non-Vancian casters...
I know Rogue Genius came out with their spell point system. Are there any other examples of Non-Vancian spell casting rules in Pathfinder, 3PP, homebrew, or otherwise?Technically, Oracles and Sorcerors (and other spontaneous casters) are non-Vancian casters...
They still operate by the basic slots-per-day and slots-organized-by-level mechanic so most people lump them in together. They're not really different enough to be considered completely non-Vancian.
My homebrew kept spells per day, but it was a sum total. So you could cast that number of spells up to your level (no prepping ahead of time). So if you have 10 spells per day, you can cast 10 Level 3 spells or 10 level 1 spells, etc... I had to reduce the number of spells per day overall because things got unbalanced as levels got higher.
They still operate by the basic slots-per-day and slots-organized-by-level mechanic so most people lump them in together. They're not really different enough to be considered completely non-Vancian.I know Rogue Genius came out with their spell point system. Are there any other examples of Non-Vancian spell casting rules in Pathfinder, 3PP, homebrew, or otherwise?Technically, Oracles and Sorcerors (and other spontaneous casters) are non-Vancian casters...
Neither of those mechanics are what makes wizards Vancian. But you already know that.
I was merely pointing out that the OPs original question had an easy answer within the game.
And to actually contribute something to the discussion, the problem with any sort of mana or spell point system is balancing the number of points against the relative power of the spells so a 2 point spell is equal to two 1 point spells and half the power of 4 point spells.
Pathfinder spell levels are not linear, so they need totally re - writing, if you want to use the rest of the game system. At which point I think you're better off starting with a system that already supports non-Vancian casting.
Rolemaster used spell points, but had definite sweet spots where you got more effective use of the points than others. Ars Magica has unlimited spellcasting, along with a more limited spellcasting system running in parallel, so you can cast any spell you've learned every round, all day long. But that system makes no attempt to balance Mages against martials. There are many systems, merely pick one that does what you want.
I was merely pointing out that the OPs original question had an easy answer within the game.
Well, that's my point. I would be 99% sure that isn't what the OP is looking for.
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I was merely pointing out that the OPs original question had an easy answer within the game.Well, that's my point. I would be 99% sure that isn't what the OP is looking for.
I was actually thinking outside of the whole "spell slots" system. Sorry I wasn't 100% clear.
Dreamscarred's psionics point system is cool, but it's based on the idea that the powers don't scale with the character's level. If you want to do more damage, you have to spend more power points. Whereas with Pathfinder spells, the damage increases automatically with the caster's level, ie, a fireball cast by a 15th-level wizard always does more damage than one cast by a 6th-level wizard. My feeling is that a spell point system would have to work the same way, with wizards having to expend more spell points in order to do more damage.
Here's a system I've seen used over a long-term campaign to great effect.
Every level a caster gained bonus mana points based on their casting ability score.
A sorcerer could choose a certain school and add her CHA mod to her caster level for spells from those schools. They also had a base bonus of 3 mana points.
A wizard gained half his level to spellcraft checks.
Every spell had a spellcraft DC to meet based on its level. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you get a +1 bonus to DC and caster level on that spell. If you fail the spell, you must spend a round to cast it and get it off only next round.
Natural 20 - a beneficial effect with the spell decided by the DM. Usually a random free meta magic.
Natural 1 - bad things happen. Usually if it's a buff of +4 charisma, the target got -4 penalty for the same duration, or a fireball explodes in your face.
Each spell level doubled the cost of the previous:
Lvl 0 - free
Lvl 1 - 1
Lvl 2 - 2
Lvl 3 - 4
Lvl 4 - 8
Lvl 5 - 16
Lvl 6 - 32
Lvl 7 - 64
Lvl 8 - 128
Lvl 9 - 256
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In effect, the sorcerer had the easiest time casting level 9 spells, but due to lower spellcraft could easily cause a disaster to occur. Every 5 levels, he chose another school for the bonus of CHA.
The wizard had a very stable, reliable casting ability and very often was able to fetch some minor bonuses to his spells, however he had less mana and firepower to him.
Neither caster could make a 9th level spell happen without the help of epic stat boosting magical items and/or tomes. They would go on grand quests for such items in hopes of being able to put their knowledge to use.
Spellcasters could join in to pool their points into casting a single spell, however the more people were casting it, the more time it took to do so. (2 casters on one spell - 2x casting time, and so on.)
Of the group, the highest spellcraft would be selected, meaning that you would require an expert to supervise these casters in order to cast such a great spell, as well as at least one of them is required to know the spell.
Sorcerers could not be supervised by wizards and vice versa, however, since their casting methods were that far apart.
Wizards retained a kind of spellslot system in which they would have to prepare a spell as many times as they wished to cast it that day, and despite having it, a situation could arise where the wizard did not have enough points to do so
They couldn't prepare more spells that day than the total cost. So you could, for instance prepare 256 1st level spells, but then you can't prepare anything else.
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It limits casters a lot, because the amount of higher level spells you cast decreases the lower ones, and the amount of lower ones could leave you without enough higher ones.
It sort of balanced things out, though you could cast 100 1st level spells at late game, for instance.
I'm actually surprised nobody has brought up the Mana Sorcerer yet.
Elements of Magic is a Spellpoint based Lore system
Casters learn spells by groups. For example Evoke Fire is any spell involving blowing people up with fire.
One of my favorites from 3E was Green Ronin's True Sorcery. Skill based system of magic, that was fairly complex but very flexible. Powerful spells could take a lot of time to cast though
Now that I have seen the Spheres of Power stuff in detail, I must say that it is an ideal system for those wishing to dispose of Vancian spellcasting.
Ultimate Magic's Words of Power is the only 'official', albeit variant, rules in that vein. Its not a great system, and results in a lot more paperwork. But that's, really, the reasoning for the Vancian magic in the first place - its simple.
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Ultimate Magic's Words of Power is the only 'official', albeit variant, rules in that vein. Its not a great system, and results in a lot more paperwork. But that's, really, the reasoning for the Vancian magic in the first place - its simple.
Um, no, the reason for Vancian magic in the first place is because E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson were fans of Jack Vance's novels and chose to base the magic system in D&D on the magic featured in Vance's fiction. It's been a legacy carried on in every edition ever since, all the way down to Pathfinder.
Except of course that it has morphed into "slot-based casting" but isn't truly "Vancian" for most casting-classes (only the Wizard, the Magus, and maybe one or two others I've missed are actually "Vancian" in Pathfinder-- Sorcerers, Clerics, Druids, Bards, Inquisitors, etc, are not-- the critical defining feature of genuine "Vancian" magic is that you have to memorize each spell, and as soon as you cast it, it's gone... you can't cast it again until you hit the books and re-memorize it).
You may be right that slot-based casting has been kept because it's simple, though... :D
Everyone has stuck with the Vancian magic not just because it is simple, but also because it is what everyone knows. My personal and humble opinion is that it is very hard to make a system of magic to rival it in terms of simplicity and acceptability, that don't just repaint the system as it is anyway.
For example, I believe that the spell/power points system is basically the same darn thing as the spell slots. Instead of slots, you have points. Not really a big difference in my opinion.
Pathfinder has some in-system ways to change the spell-slots system, modifying it quite a bit. For example, the Magus and Arcanist have their Arcane Pools, which they can use to modify spells on the fly. Other classes have similar pool systems, even those who do not have traditional spells, like the Monk and the Ninja's ki pool.
Pathfinder's new Kineticist is caster of a different sort. No spells at all, but still having magical abilities and attacks. The Witch has hexes that she can use pretty much whenever. And the Sorcerer and others can regain lost or expended spell slots with certain class abilities.
Truthfully, Pathfinder isn't very Vancian. But other spell systems are reskinned versions of system Pathfinder uses. Even Pathfinder's Words of Power (which seriously needs some new words itself) is basically the same as the spell-slot system.
There are exceptions though. As pointed out, Spheres of Power is pretty unique. It is interesting to say the least. But it's uniqueness means it might not be used as much, or expanded upon in the future, like Words of Power has one appearance in a book and one book only.
Now that I have seen the Spheres of Power stuff in detail, I must say that it is an ideal system for those wishing to dispose of Vancian spellcasting.
There are some conventions in spheres of power that make me wonder why it isn't like that in the first place. Like a unified magic pool, caster level functioning like BAB, advanced casting being directly related to earlier casting, not falling completely victim to 15 minute workdays.
I do like the caster level functioning like BAB. If I pull one thing out of that book, it'll be that.
Ive tinkered with that idea for a touch attack replacement. Caster level +casting Stat
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Apparently for spheres of power you still make attacks with dex or str. But overall I think caster level functionally being caster BAB is the one of the most interesting thing in the book. Although I think the part where it seems more a part of the system than spell slots is that you gain casting with feat-like talents, which puts casting, at least in theory, function more within the standards of combat feats. Now this isn't thoroughly true as scaling by caster level and spell points are a factor, also I haven't seen any 'talent taxes', but compared to usual spell slots spheres are drastically less exponential in power. each talent is more or less equal and scale with caster level.
The whole thing is so compelling that I'm actually curious on seeing what the same logic would do for a combat action system. Imagine instead of spheres you had fighting styles or stances. Instead of talents you get techniques that expand on your style. Each one is intended to be equal but all scale on BAB. Much better than the 5 feats to wipe your butt that we have now.
Now that I have seen the Spheres of Power stuff in detail, I must say that it is an ideal system for those wishing to dispose of Vancian spellcasting.There are some conventions in spheres of power that make me wonder why it isn't like that in the first place. Like a unified magic pool, caster level functioning like BAB, advanced casting being directly related to earlier casting, not falling completely victim to 15 minute workdays.
I do like the caster level functioning like BAB. If I pull one thing out of that book, it'll be that.
It also led to some very cool classes that are medium-casters, but count as full spellcasters for one sphere (spell school). A very interesting way of not letting one class be the best at everything.
Definitely worth the preorder. I recommend it to anyone who wants to make magic feel magical again.
And Malwing, that would be an excellent martial system I think. I wish someone was up to that task. It would probably take a lot of combat style research. But even if it never happens, I feel very content with DSP's work.
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One of my problems with Path of War is that not many third parties seemed to have put up that much effort for martial systems. Meanwhile I'm swamped with new casting systems and spells.
Now that I have seen the Spheres of Power stuff in detail, I must say that it is an ideal system for those wishing to dispose of Vancian spellcasting.There are some conventions in spheres of power that make me wonder why it isn't like that in the first place. Like a unified magic pool, caster level functioning like BAB, advanced casting being directly related to earlier casting, not falling completely victim to 15 minute workdays.
I really liked the idea of caster level working like BAB, too. I'd find it interesting if even martials getting a 1/2 CL progression even if to simply let martials have cool toys as well. Would work well in a high magic setting like that of League of Legends where everyone's got a little magic in them.
With the latter part about earlier casting, even Sean K Reynolds mentioned that in a blog when talking about his Five Moons RPG (which will have feats/magic that work not too dissimilar to Spheres of Power). A fighter has to follow a feat tree whereas a wizard can learn fireball without having learned any fire blasting spell previously.
A fighter has to follow a feat tree whereas a wizard can learn fireball without having learned any fire blasting spell previously.
I'm generally one to defend the game for not being as broken as its often perceived on the forums but this is one part of the game that has bothered me to no end since day one. You just pick and choose spells that have nothing to do with each other? I almost never go full caster because I generally have some kind of gimmick to work with and I always feel like I failed at being an 'x-wizard' because there aren't enough 'x' spells to go around or they come too late or I really cant do anything with 'x' spells.
Being a gimicky wizard is hard to do. Unless you go Sin magic or Elemental school, but even then you still have the same problem of spells not arriving when they should, or just being useless.
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A fighter has to follow a feat tree whereas a wizard can learn fireball without having learned any fire blasting spell previously.
Yeah, I think I recall complaining about this very thing a long time ago on a thread in the homebrew section of the forum. Definitely an issue that requires a whole system change or in-depth subsystem on martials side to address, as base pathfinder can't really fix this by adding more feats.
While Path of War's maneuvers are similar to spells, and definitely not the only way to go about it, they are the best and only thing we've gotten. I for one love maneuvers though. I wonder how balanced a game with PoW and Spheres of Power would be?
Either way, I think that stances would probably be a good way to starting any martial subsystem. Stances as a whole are cool, and Paizo did at least implement them for unarmed characters. I think I have gone off-topic at this point though.
Back on topic, the Akashic Mysteries is playtesting a prestige class that combines your choice of psionics of spellcasting, and veilweaving. Definitely an interesting take on either.
As a system, Akashic mysteries allows me to make character concepts I could never realize in pathfinder. For instance? Swarmlord, Master of Cockroaches! A powerful an evil wizard who flies around using a massive swarm of cockroaches, spewing acidic ichor from his mouth all while causing all those who lay eyes upon him to turn their heads away in disgust. That's with just 3 veils: Pestilence cloak gives you a miss chance against ranged weapons and gives you a slow flight speed via being carried by the insects that shield you. Gorget of the wyrm gives you the breath weapon. Stare of the Ghaele gives you a gaze attack that causes shaken or staggered, depending on your investment.
A fighter has to follow a feat tree whereas a wizard can learn fireball without having learned any fire blasting spell previously.I'm generally one to defend the game for not being as broken as its often perceived on the forums but this is one part of the game that has bothered me to no end since day one. You just pick and choose spells that have nothing to do with each other? I almost never go full caster because I generally have some kind of gimmick to work with and I always feel like I failed at being an 'x-wizard' because there aren't enough 'x' spells to go around or they come too late or I really cant do anything with 'x' spells.
I feel the exact same way. Really, I like Vancian spellcasting. I'm one of the few that like the flavor, and it's mechanically simple. My biggest issue comes from the spell selection and how spells are generally designed. If I want to play an ice wizard that creates weapons out of ice, I'm out of luck. There aren't many 1st level ice spells and icicle dagger is kind of meh compared to the opportunity cost of preparing it.
On that subject, I'm really liking the way SKR's Five Moons RPG handles magic. Feats and spells are all part of the same talent system with each ability granting a number of at-will uses. Like Spheres of Power, but it also encompasses combat feats, too. Here's a link to some example spells.
A fighter has to follow a feat tree whereas a wizard can learn fireball without having learned any fire blasting spell previously.I'm generally one to defend the game for not being as broken as its often perceived on the forums but this is one part of the game that has bothered me to no end since day one. You just pick and choose spells that have nothing to do with each other? I almost never go full caster because I generally have some kind of gimmick to work with and I always feel like I failed at being an 'x-wizard' because there aren't enough 'x' spells to go around or they come too late or I really cant do anything with 'x' spells.I feel the exact same way. Really, I like Vancian spellcasting. I'm one of the few that like the flavor, and it's mechanically simple. My biggest issue comes from the spell selection and how spells are generally designed. If I want to play an ice wizard that creates weapons out of ice, I'm out of luck. There aren't many 1st level ice spells and icicle dagger is kind of meh compared to the opportunity cost of preparing it.
On that subject, I'm really liking the way SKR's Five Moons RPG handles magic. Feats and spells are all part of the same talent system with each ability granting a number of at-will uses. Like Spheres of Power, but it also encompasses combat feats, too. Here's a link to some example spells.
Because I already had Pathfinder and I had spent money on christmas presents already I didn't participate in the Five Moons kickstarter but its starting to look more ideal than 5e for the purposes of rules lite games.