In all these examples I always wonder why our hypothetical good character is even carrying around a wand of infernal healing such that it is the only option to heal these poor dying children. That's like carrying around a torture kit "just in case." A normal CLW wand provides all the orphan saving you could ever need for these situations and doesn't have the [evil] tag.
Probably because they are a wizard, sorcerer, summoner, or magus the classes that do not get cure spells but do have infernal healing on their spell lists and so can use a wand of infernal healing to cure damage.
I suppose you could contrive a situation where there is absolutely no magical healing in the party, and they just happened to find a potion of IH, and no one has the heal skill or a good Wisdom, so we have to use it or the child will die. Let's not pretend that's a normal situation.
Sure it is not common, but I have played an eldritch knight character solo for a long time and having a method of curing in D&D is significant. A wand is much better than having a few one shot cure potions.
Once again, it's entirely consistent to rule that aligned spells are minor acts of their alignment. How many castings of infernal healing does it take to turn evil? How many stolen tips from the tip jar does it take? How many business owners do you have to shake down for protection money to turn evil? How many weapons do you need to knowingly sell to bandits? Like all alignment issues it's simply part of an overall pattern. It's not a math equation. It's not like the 25th infernal healing suddenly tips you over, it's more like "willing to use minor evil to achieve their ends" is a facet of your character. Combine that with enough other non-good facets and that's when you slide to neutral.
Similarly casting good spells "to become good" might get you "performs minor meaningless acts of contrition" as a facet of your character. Again, it does nothing by itself, but when looking at the whole character it may have an effect.
Sure, it is an arbitrary choice for how evil casting an [Evil] spell is. It would also be an acceptable cosmology choice to say that channelling alignment forces is completely overpowering and one use of an aligned protection from X spell turns your alignment the alignment of the spell. So if you interact with alignment effects it fundamentally impacts you.
You can choose to say it has no alignment effect, a minor one, or a major one and still be fairly consistent with the RAW.
Probably wrong here but this feels like it is coming to a roleplay vs rollplay issue. One side uses alignment for story and character development and world immersment, and the other just sees it as a resource to be monitored through a profit/loss system.
If you're on the roleplay side, you gotta understand you can't just balance out evil actions with good actions and call it even. Greater Good can still be covered in lots of minor evil. Extreme example here but here it goes. If some villain has some spell that will destroy an entire town, but says the only way for you to save them is for you to violently molest someone, either side you choose counts as evil. Either you destroy someone's psyche and ruin their life or you let a whole town of people die. Sometimes, there is no winning option and neither one is good. Great Good is not really a justification and usually the people that try to justify are the ones that deep down know what they did was wrong and are trying to find a way out of it. Redemption stories can spawn from these events.
Edit: There is a term called Necessary Evil. Sometimes it has to be done. No you can't justify it as good even if it helped some people as it was still evil, it was just required. it's also called a Catch 22.
If you are on the rollplay side, just cut out alignment if you only look at it like something on a balance sheet. It serves no purpose for you. It's a story builder.
Nonsense.
You can completely be into roleplaying and consider supernatural team [Good] and [Evil] a thing separate from the moral alignment of good and evil.
Your view on Good and Evil balancing out to Neutral or slanting towards Evil is simply a view on alignments over which people can reasonably disagree and is orthogonal to roleplaying immersion and storytelling.
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In Pathfinder morality does not exist. Sides exist. The gods are the only ones permitted to debate morality because you can get direct answers from the deities.
Commune spell: Dear Shelyn is casting infernal healing to save a good aligned creature from dying evil?
"Nope."
or
"Yes."End of conversation.
The true-God is the GM.
You can consider things to be however you want. You would be wrong but you can consider it. Supernatural team good and evil are just that, actual good and evil. If you petition for either's power they are letting you use it because they want to sway you to their side or they consider you a advocate for their side.
Nonsense.
You can completely be into roleplaying and consider supernatural team [Good] and [Evil] a thing separate from the moral alignment of good and evil.
Your view on Good and Evil balancing out to Neutral or slanting towards Evil is simply a view on alignments over which people can reasonably disagree and is orthogonal to roleplaying immersion and storytelling.
Nonsense.
:)
Cosmic [Good] does not consider evil summoners using protection from evil to be advocates for the side of [Good].
[Good] and [Evil] are not sentient, they are cosmic forces that just exist.
Asmodeus is not the force of cosmic [Evil], he may be composed of it and powered by it and embrace it, but he is not the force. He may wish to corrupt or sway people to its side, but [Evil] does not. [Evil] just is.
No petitioning is needed, you just cast an arcane spell. Unless the DM adds on more to descriptor things, like in the thread on making the casting of infernal healing actually evil in fact. I even added thoughts in that thread on how to do so to take it from a morally neutral action with an [evil] descriptor to an actually (minor) evil action.
Anyone can pick up an aligned magic weapon and use it without petitioning. I consider that morally neutral unless there are other unnamed considerations. Same with casting an alignment descriptor spell.
Why do people refuse to accept that sometimes there is no winning in a situation and both options are levels of evil? Just because you made a helpful result does not change that you did something evil. Look at the assassin/agent/whatever guy in the movie Serenity. Working towards a greater good tends to mean damning yourself. it's a sacrifice. You damn yourself to the powers of evil but use them to help people. You're still going to hell because you essentially sold your soul but you improved the lives of other people.
I am disagreeing with you that picking up and using a magically aligned sword is an aligned act. That is a different disagreement than that a situation can be set up with only actually evil options.
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I've been wondering whether to post in this thread at all. I didn't want to have to repeat the logical argument, over and over again.
Luckily, now I don't have to. Everything that needs to be said, has been said and repeated by Ashiel. I am firmly in the camp that the [Evil] descriptor has -NO- impact on the alignment of the action you are performing, BY THE CORE RULES.
-Nearyn
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”It’s too late, I am dead already” Erasmus’ voice was little more than a whisper. With every word forced through bloodied lips, there was an unsettling rattle. His body was broken, Erasmus was right, he was always right, he was beyond hope at this point. Garret stopped channeling and withdrew his hands, the palms were wet with blood, Erasmus’ blood. It was not fair, the wizard was not a combatant, he wasn’t even supposed to be here, yet now there he was, forcing his last words from his dying form. The injustice burned him, and Garret strained to hold back tears.
“I cannot leave you here” Garret objected. “First Thomas, then Hollt… I’m not losing you too!”
Even dying, Erasmus forced his knowing smile “That decision has been made for you” the wizard coughed. His hands, trembling and cold, fumbled, as if reaching, and as Garret followed the motion, the saw Erasmus was reaching for his knapsack.
“It’s all on you and your feathered friend now Garret. Take my bag, use whatever you must!” Garret looked back at his friend, his eyes had glassed over, he was no longer looking at Garret, instead looking at something beyond sight.
“You must…stop…Yara” and with that, Erasmus' last breath left his body. Garret's hands curled into fists. He wanted to scream. He breathed hard, through clenched teeth for an indeterminable amount of time, before reaching out, closing Erasmus’ eyes for the final time.
“We must go now” Sachiel spoke, and as the angel placed his hand of Garret's shoulder, Garret felt just the smallest glimmer of relief. Not completely alone. Not completely. Garret managed to stand, and look at Sachiel, the Deva’s face was sympathetic, but serene, lamenting the loss of their allies, but powerfully determined to see their quest done. They were right, Garret realized, as he stepped across the corpse of a fallen foe and picked up Erasmus’ knapsack. Both Erasmus and Sachiel were right, Yara had to be stopped, former friend or not, her sorcerous ways were threatening more than just them, it was threatening all of Varisia. Looking to his bloody hands, Garret wiped them on his scarf, before dropping it to the floor, picking back up his sword and shield and mustering his will and strength. This was going to be it, the last spurt, the final chance to stop Yara before she could activate the Jericho-device. As if sensing his determination, Sachiel’s sword burst into holy flame. They didn’t even share a look, they both knew it was now or never. They stepped forth towards the swirling portal, and crossed the threshold to the Jagged Spire.
From the moment of his entrance into the chamber, Garret had the strangest sensation. It was almost a sense of vertigo, as the room around him seemed to warp and twist with cascades of eldricht energy. The flowing waves of silvery energy seemed to pulse, emanating from a crystal suspended on a plinth in the centre of the chamber. The pulses were horrid things, instilling a feeling of untamed destruction with every pulse, like a heartbeat of uncontrolled calamity, patiently waiting, building.
“Here we are, at last” The voice shot up Garret’s spine, the feeling of freezing water. Yara stepped from behind the plinth, her dark eyes scanning across her former comrades who had come at this moment, to end her ambition. Her eyes were all that Garret noticed, her beauty and the nostalgic longing for a different time, a better time, a time where he would call her friend, all buried in a flash of righteous anger. He saw not her face, but the face of Thomas, of Hollt… of Erasmus, of every knight of the Shining Shield who had died on the steps of the Jagged Spire, fighting with them, dying for them, and for the safety and security of their families, and all the free folk of Varisia. He wanted to shout at her, to yell out, but he couldn’t find the words, couldn’t vocalize his anger, a cry pressed on his throat, and he forced it back, instead moving forward, slowly approaching Yara, circling from the left.
“Yara Quinn!” it was Sachiel, cirling from the right, who spoke, his voice ringing with a justice above what could be vocalized by mortals
“You have been found guilty of sins, severe and numerous. The blood of innocents burn your hands, the betrayed goodwill of the people mark your heart, and your sacrifice of all that is good, for your own selfish desires, blacken your soul!” As they closed, Yara assumed a posture he knew only too well, she was ready to channel her powers, to weave her sorcery if she thought they got too close. Sachiel must’ve known as well, but he kept circling.
“What say you Yara, daughter of Yselle, mortal turned monster, who would abandon her own beliefs and bring death to her friends and family. What say you, sinful creature, whose ambition has caused the death hundreds, and would still cause the death of thousands. What say you to those you have wronged!?”
“ENOUGH!” with a shout, her hands began weaving. Instantly, Garret launched at her, but even before his blade could reach her, the mystical words were spoken, the sigils drawn, phantom creatures began circling Sachiel, and the angel let out a cry of rage and despair, falling to his knees, clutching his head. Garret charged on, and swung his blade, Yara, turning to deal with her other attacker, barely managed to jump for dear life, Garrets blade still biting deep. Screaming with pain and hate, she began weaving sigils again, and Garret threw himself at her, determined to stop her sorcery. Again he was barely too late, as a swirl of red energy contorted into a door, closed around Yara, and vanished, taking her with it. Garret stopped his assault and spun on the spot, looking left and right, trying to determine where her dimensional magic had taken her. She would not leave the crystal heart at his mercy, not now, when she was so close.
“Up here Garret!” His gaze shot up, to find her hovering high in the room.
“Come down and fight me Yara!” he cried, and even though her face was painted with the pain of the wound he’d inflicted her, she managed a mocking laugh.
“Why would I do that, you self-righteous oaf?!”
“Because if you don’t” Garret said, raising his sword, pointing the tip towards the crystal “I will destroy this”. Again she laughed, and Garret, though determined, felt a sense of doubt. His eyes darted to the crystal. It looked sturdy, sure, and as it was, empowered with powers arcane, it would probably take a few good swings, but even she could not believe that he would be unable to destroy it, if she didn’t keep his attention with everything she had. Her laugh stopped, and she shot him a sadistic glare.
“And how will you be destroying the Jericho-device Garret? When you are so busy fighting for your life?! SLAVE! KILL HIM!”
A cry of desperate refusal echoed through the chamber, and to Garret’s horror, it was Sachiel’s voice.
“I … WILL… NOT… Do … Your … bidding”, with every word, the vigour of Sachiel’s voice lessened, a foreboding light had come to the angel’s eyes.
“You will, because I offer you no choice. Kill Garret, I command it!” Garret looked on in disbelief, as the ensorcelled mind of his last ally, drove the angel to rise and grasp the flaming sword. Garret took a step back, raising his shield, crying for Sachiel to snap out of it, but the angel merely assumed an offensive stance, and approached, and all around them echoed the throbbing of the Jericho-device and the mocking laugh of Yara. He could not strike down his friend, even if he was capable of defeating Sachiel in a fight to begin with. As Garret backed further from the approaching Deva, his hand bumped against something at his waist, and for just a moment, time seemed to cease. Erasmus’ knapsack. In a flash, Garret was reminded of their journey to King’s Peak, back in a different time, where they would travel with Yara, before the incident that had caused her to leave, and Thomas to join their band of adventurers. Yara had joked that Erasmus was always immersed in his studies, that his scribbling and scrawling would lead to him eventually rolling into a ball, and spending the rest of his life as human barnacle. Erasmus had retorted that you never knew what to expect and had presented her with a scroll, that he claimed would keep certain outsiders at bay. Yara had shrugged it off and continued teasing him, but Erasmus had maintained that if you didn’t know what to expect, you should expect everything, just to be sure.
Hoping, praying, Garret quickly grabbed into the knapsack, and retrieved what he’d hoped to find. The magical scroll that would protect him from the agents of good. Never before this moment had he imagined that he would ever see that scroll used. He had trusted in Erasmus when he’d said that you needed to expect everything, but he’d always scoffed at the idea of that particular scroll seeing any use. Now, he realized, was the time to use it, the last triumph of Erasmus’ paranoia. “A paranoid man is just a man in possession of all the facts” the wizard had used to say. Unrolling the scroll, Garret spoke aloud the words of power. Sachiel darted forward, seeing the opening, but as his blade neared Garret, a wave of blueish energy washed out from the Paladin, pushing back the angel. A yell of disbelief issued from Yara, and Garret smiled in triumph, it had worked. Tossing the, now blank, scroll to the ground, he once again grabbed his sword, prepared to end this conflict once and for all.
Then… horror. It happened so fast, but it may as well have taken a hundred years for the sinking feeling of utter blackness that filled his heart. A sinking, bottomless feeling of horror so surreal, that he’d never known its like, or imagined such a feeling to exist before. Before his eyes, the shine of his sword seemed to dim and fade, no longer it appeared a pristine tool justice, but just a dull metal instrument, sharpened to cut flesh. With a sickening twist in his stomach, and a sudden, horrifying realization of what was happening, Garret fell to his knees as his world cracked like a mirror, and the veneer of righteousness was pulled back, his divine focus shattered, the grace of his god retracted. Loneliness and vulnerability washed in on him, crushing him, choking him, he looked in disbelief at the sky, but saw only the chamber ceiling and the mystified look of a confused Yara.
“NO!” he screamed, dropping both sword and shield, and reaching for sky, as if clawing for something that he could not see.
“WHY! NOT NOW! NOT WITH SO MUCH AT STAKE!” He prayed with every fiber of his being, his mind aflame with desperate desire for an end to this cruel irony, a blind need for the joke to end.
“MY GODDESS! MY INHERITOR! WHY DO YOU DO THIS?! WHY DO YOU ABANDON ME!?” But for the first time since his youth, for the first time since he’d donned the mantle of the protector, and been willing to lay down his life to protect that of others, there was no answer when he called. No feeling of assurance, no clarity. Just silence, and a darkness that deepened around him, as surely as if his soul had been dragged to the Pit. Again he saw the faces of his fallen allies, and this time, there was no holding the tears back. Helplessly he let them flow, as he slumped back, looking at the ceiling, hoping to see the skies above, the shattered hope for something that would not come.
Thus began the 100 year reign of the Dark Queen Yara of the Jagged Spire, iron-fisted monarch of the formerly free frontier of Varisia.
Proving to the world that all that is needed for evil to triumph, is for good men to do something.
-Nearyn
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That was both incredibly awesome and utterly ridiculous.
No deity of Good alignment would be that stupid if you ask me.
Making that Paladin fall because of one scroll led to the triumph of evil.
This would make more sense in a Law vs Chaos conflict if you ask me. Good is not dumb.
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That was both incredibly awesome and utterly ridiculous.
No deity of Good alignment would be that stupid if you ask me.
Making that Paladin fall because of one scroll led to the triumph of evil.
First, thanks for the compliment ^^
Secondly, Champions of Purity tells us that casting an [evil] spell, for any reason, is at least a minor act of evil. And ANY act of evil, if done willingly, will make a paladin fall.
I've always said that I found the ruling in champions of purity ridiculous, but that I accept people's right to use it, it being non-core and all.
This is just one of MANY stupid situations that would arise from such a ruling, when you say that the alignment of an action is impacted by a spell descriptor.
My opinion ofc, but as I said, I don't have to make any argument in my favor, because most of the arguments have already been provided :)
-Nearyn
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I have Champions of Purity.
Now I feel like burning the damned book.
Either that, or the page that spouted that stupid nonsense.
So in game mechanics terms, your paladin bought an evil magic item, invested ranks in UMD to be able to use it, and now we're supposed to be surprised when this has repercussions?
Or the Paladin is a Samsaran who was a Sorcerer in a past life.
Nearyn, I enjoyed your story, but they made the wrong choice of choosing protection from good instead of evil. Both were options to use in this instance. Prot from evil cast on the diva would of allowed her a second save.
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I have Champions of Purity.
Now I feel like burning the damned book.
Either that, or the page that spouted that stupid nonsense.
The character failed the moment he trusted in his friend over that of his (deity) closest companion since he was young boy. All his life he was told he was not to resort to evil under no circumstance. The paladin had a bad feeling from the beginning that he got the scroll. Should have trusted that his deity would have provided him a way to overcome the final evil.
The character failed the moment he trusted in his friend over that of his (deity) closest companion since he was young boy. All his life he was told he was not to resort to evil under no circumstance. The paladin had a bad feeling from the beginning that he got the scroll. Should have trusted that his deity would have provided him a way to overcome the final evil.I have Champions of Purity.
Now I feel like burning the damned book.
Either that, or the page that spouted that stupid nonsense.
because deities are infallible. Right?
because deities are infallible. Right?The character failed the moment he trusted in his friend over that of his (deity) closest companion since he was young boy. All his life he was told he was not to resort to evil under no circumstance. The paladin had a bad feeling from the beginning that he got the scroll. Should have trusted that his deity would have provided him a way to overcome the final evil.I have Champions of Purity.
Now I feel like burning the damned book.
Either that, or the page that spouted that stupid nonsense.
Nope, but they are vain. They have edicts. Their highest authorities should not do things contradictory to their edicts.
I view the connection between a Paladin and their deity like a silvery mithril cord similar to that of astral creatures away from their bodies.
The Holy acts of a Paladin create an energy that feeds the deity. In return the deity gives them power. However an evil act severs that cord lest the deities themselves be corrupted.
Paladins don't need to worship a god.
Paladins don't need to worship a god.
Either way it works the same for me.
Instead of being connected to a deity, he is connected to the plane of good, and those Paladins would recieve a worse backlash (visually) because the potential corruption of the source of all good... yikes.
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Paladins don't need to worship a god.Which can be even worse. Gods can be swayed. Concepts cannot.
+1 dude. The point of being a paladin is that temperance of action through good and law and as much living up to those concepts as resisting the temptations of forces that would lead a paladin away from those goals (like chaos or evil).
But really I'm annoyed by how quickly this whole conversation has devolved into a paladin's fall discussion. Seriously, the spell is evil it's in the write up. In the case of infernal healing it literally makes you read as evil, with animate dead it animates the body by imbuing it with a "malignant intelligence", when I call or summon an evil outsider I'm choosing as an ally a creature that is literally the physical embodiment of evil, and with protection from good I am literally beseeching the universe for defense against the forces of good. The circumstances where I will need those spells AND NO OTHERS of other alignments or non aligned are so freakin' small that they really don't matter.
The point everyone here seems to be making on the they f~+% with your alignment side is that they do but it's not like dropping a single infernal healing spell for the vast majority of characters will immediately cause you to fall to evil, be damned, and become an NPC either. So if you are playing the VAST MAJORITY of classes in most games you don't need to worry about completely punishing results for sporadically using an evil spell.
Finally Paizo's products seem to have been pretty clear on what the evil tag means (spell's evil man) and even pfs now follows these guidelines. But the big thing is that if you are gm'ing a home game and you don't like it that's cool! It's a decision made between you and your players and if that's the game you want to play go for it. Now if you really want to figure out what way you prefer try a game with a gm where the rules are flipped and see how you like it.
Now if you really want to figure out what way you prefer try a game with a gm where the rules are flipped and see how you like it.Paladins don't need to worship a god.Which can be even worse. Gods can be swayed. Concepts cannot.
I play a couple different games with a couple of different dms. With one of them, I avoid certain classes because of how he does things. No big deal.
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Champions of purity is not PRD.
I don't use RotRL for aasimar ages either (aasimars age differently in Golarion than in the rules).
Not everyone playing PF is using the Golarion setting.
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So in game mechanics terms, your paladin bought an evil magic item, invested ranks in UMD to be able to use it, and now we're supposed to be surprised when this has repercussions?
In game mechanical terms, Erasmus the wizard, who believed in being prepared for everything, had prepared a scroll of protection from good, which he had never had the opportunity to cast, because it had not been relevant. Garret the paladin of Iomedae, had invested ranks in UMD for any number of reasons, but none of them evil in intent.
And yes, now you are supposed to be surprised, because Garret, who opted to use the option whereby he could at least have a shot at fighting for Varisia's future, while not simultaneously (and perhaps suicidally) attempt to murder a dominated angel, has fallen for the 'evil action' of casting protection from good.
This is of course based on the Champions of Purity reading of the [evil] descriptor, which I am happy to say has no bearing on the core-rules of the game, whereby the casting of spells with the [evil] descriptor, doesn't make you any more evil than casting [cold] spells give you the flu.
The question asked in the opening post is whether or not descriptors SHOULD have an impact on alignment. I say No, they should not, and people are free to disagree with that. Of course, if we're discussing Core Rules, as written, then there is only one answer "No, it does not".
What I have provided is a spit of story, for the purpose of highlighting why I find the contrary ruling, presented in the optional and setting specific "champions of purity" to be a hilariously bad idea. And while I still maintain that any GM is free to play WITH this rule, I am simply offering my opinion that I don't find it smart from a mechanical or story-driven perspective.
-Nearyn
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+1 dude. The point of being a paladin is that temperance of action through good and law and as much living up to those concepts as resisting the temptations of forces that would lead a paladin away from those goals (like chaos or evil).Paladins don't need to worship a god.Which can be even worse. Gods can be swayed. Concepts cannot.
Be that as it may, I do not agree that by the rules Infernal Healing and the like are Evil acts. You're welcome to rule that way in your own games, but I don't, nor do I find evidence in the core rules for it. As to the OP, I don't believe the spell should affect your alignment, because your acts will have a greater effect than any spell you ever cast.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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So in game mechanics terms, your paladin bought an evil magic item, invested ranks in UMD to be able to use it, and now we're supposed to be surprised when this has repercussions?
In game mechanical terms, Erasmus the wizard, who believed in being prepared for everything, had prepared a scroll of protection from good, which he had never had the opportunity to cast, because it had not been relevant. Garret the paladin of Iomedae, had invested ranks in UMD for any number of reasons, but none of them evil in intent.
And yes, now you are supposed to be surprised, because Garret, who opted to use the option whereby he could at least have a shot at fighting for Varisia's future, while not simultaneously (and perhaps suicidally) attempt to murder a dominated angel, has fallen for the 'evil action' of casting protection from good.
This is of course based on the Champions of Purity reading of the [evil] descriptor, which I am happy to say has no bearing on the core-rules of the game, whereby the casting of spells with the [evil] descriptor, doesn't make you any more evil than casting [cold] spells give you the flu.
The question asked in the opening post is whether or not descriptors SHOULD have an impact on alignment. I say No, they should not, and people are free to disagree with that. Of course, if we're discussing Core Rules, as written, then there is only one answer "No, it does not".
What I have provided is a spit of story, for the purpose of highlighting why I find the contrary ruling, presented in the optional and setting specific "champions of purity" to be a hilariously bad idea. And while I still maintain that any GM is free to play WITH this rule, I am simply offering my opinion that I don't find it smart from a mechanical or story-driven perspective.
-Nearyn
Okay, I missed where the party wizard was the one packing evil magic items "just in case." In my groups we would have destroyed that scroll upon finding it, if we were primarily a good party. A wizard in one of my groups who possessed such a scroll certainly wouldn't let the paladin know about it.
Also I'm fairly certain the paladin in your story had many other options, such as striking the angel for nonlethal damage, besides "murder" and "evil spell." Casting PfG was the easy way out. As a paladin you don't always get to pick the quick and easy way.
Again, I'll reiterate since it's been a while, I'm not accusing anyone of wrongbadfun or anything. Play the game the way you and your group enjoy playing. I'm just saying it's not stupid, logically inconsistent, or inferior to play with aligned spells being acts of their alignment.
Be that as it may, I do not agree that by the rules Infernal Healing and the like are Evil acts. You're welcome to rule that way in your own games, but I don't, nor do I find evidence in the core rules for it. As to the OP, I don't believe the spell should affect your alignment, because your acts will have a greater effect than any spell you ever cast.
I find this argument in specific somewhat amusing because infernal healing is a Golarion-specific spell, and the ruling about aligned spells being of their alignment is also Golarion-specific. By all means pick and choose what you like as a buffet, but your argument would be better served with a core spell.(Of which examples abound)
@Ryric: Oh no doubt. It is just fine to run it either way, if you and your players have fun with it. :)
Also, I don't disagree that there may have been other options for poor Garret, formerly paladin of Iomedae, presently slobbering mind-slave to the evil queen Yara. Perhaps he could have defeated both Yara, a sorceress great and terrible power, as well as Sachiel the Astral Deva. We may never know :P But in the situation he found himself in, attempting to do so would be at the risk of the lives and freedom of the entire nation. Does a guardian of the innocent choose to play dice with the safety of a nation like that? A question for another thread, no doubt.
I'm a RAW kinda guy, and as such, my players know that at my table, casting [evil] magic is not an evil action. So if this had played out at my table, noone would have batted an eyelash at Erasmus keeping a scroll of protection from good, nor would I have had Garret fall for trying to save the day.
It appears to me that we do not disagree that both options can work from a story-telling perspective, and I have yet to see you claim that the position [evil] = evil is Core RAW, so I don't think you and I disagree on anything immediate Ryric :)
-Nearyn
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Be that as it may, I do not agree that by the rules Infernal Healing and the like are Evil acts. You're welcome to rule that way in your own games, but I don't, nor do I find evidence in the core rules for it. As to the OP, I don't believe the spell should affect your alignment, because your acts will have a greater effect than any spell you ever cast.+1 dude. The point of being a paladin is that temperance of action through good and law and as much living up to those concepts as resisting the temptations of forces that would lead a paladin away from those goals (like chaos or evil).Paladins don't need to worship a god.Which can be even worse. Gods can be swayed. Concepts cannot.
And as I said play as you want. I think both can have equal merits and hell in my own games we can sit a lot in the middle (bad spells are bad but if I'm dead we can't save the world, but at what point am I saving the world to damn it by my own actions?) so really whatever floats your boat.
I'm pretty sure the paladin falls. But that is because as the code is written, the paladin can fall for any action.
Generally the code is handwaved, and thus they would not fall for using a scroll.
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Champions of purity is not PRD.
No but Ultimate Magic is. Also oddly enough Infernal Healing is not core either, it is a setting specific spell from Golarion.
I don't use RotRL for aasimar ages either (aasimars age differently in Golarion than in the rules).
And that's cool if you are talking about playing in not Golarion or a different version of Golarion.
Not everyone playing PF is using the Golarion setting.
And yet most of this argument seems to be revolving around a spell specific to that setting.
Look as I said before the whole thing is preference in the VAST MAJORITY of games. If you are GM'ing your home game or you are a player in one where the subtype doesn't matter and everyone is having fun THAT'S GREAT FOR YOU GUYS! No one is going to call the fun police on you and haul away your dice and minis for not affecting this tiny part of the game "correctly". Really the most you are going to have to do is just let your players know and figure out how this works with things like cleric restrictions.
Now if you want to actually figure out which you prefer just try the other way sometime with a GM you trust and see if it floats your boat.
Champions of purity is not PRD.No but Ultimate Magic is.
Explain the relevance of this.
Explain the relevance of this.Champions of purity is not PRD.No but Ultimate Magic is.
Referring to the descriptions of spell descriptors in Ultimate Magic, namely:
Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.
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I still think this whole discussion is because someone wanted to make a wizard healer and his GM told he would became evil. Anyway, after reading enough, i found my answer.
In my campaings, casting a [alignment] spell open your heart to planar energies of that alignment. You can do any action you want, but if you cast too much you lose control over your character aligment. Why ? Because i believe so. But i would never put a PC under a trap choice of having to cast such spell, and if there were a combo that he wanted to do, he would have to deal with it.
To me and to my campaings, Infernal healing is a lure option. It's a contract akin to selling your soul to the devil and gaining a boon, no one would sell a soul if the boon weren't a good thing. Selling your soul to the devil to save your children life still is selling your soul. Infernal Healing only means selling your soul in really small packets.
Casting a lot of Protection from Evil is opening your heart to heavens for protection. Is a contract as much as selling your soul. If you keep casting both your soul would be cut in half. Neutral power choose to become open to evil by being neutral, if they want good protection, they must open their heart to it. Neutral outsiders are beyond good and evil by their mysterious nature and can do some meddling without consequences.
Planar biding is a gambit, the angels let themselves be slaved, so they can change the caster from the inside to good.
This was my opnion if you want to play in my game, do as you please in yours. Thanks for reading.
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Referring to the descriptions of spell descriptors in Ultimate Magic, namely:
Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.
And yet it still stops short of explicitly calling the casting of [Evil] spells Evil acts. I imagine Paizo is maintaining their policy of not hard coding playstyles into the rules.
In my campaings, casting a [alignment] spell open your heart to planar energies of that alignment. You can do any action you want, but if you cast too much you lose control over your character aligment.
I am LG. I cast Infernal healing on an orphan out of nothing but the kindness of my heart. My alignment is now Evil for casting it. It turns back to good for helping an orphan out of pure altruism. I continue to help people because action -> Alignment. My alignment is still Good.
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And yet it still stops short of explicitly calling the casting of [Evil] spells Evil acts. I imagine Paizo is maintaining their policy of not hard coding playstyles into the rules.Referring to the descriptions of spell descriptors in Ultimate Magic, namely:
Evil: Spells that draw upon evil powers or conjure creatures from evil-aligned planes or with the evil subtype should have the evil descriptor.
Yeah it's really not that explicit. I mean, they only use the word evil four times. That could mean anything.
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Yeah it's really not that explicit. I mean, they only use the word evil four times. That could mean anything.
Our disagreement has always been over "does the use of Evil power make the act Evil?" with you stating that the use of Evil makes the act Evil while I state the alignment of the act determines if it is Evil.
Much like bombing the city is not evil because you are using nuclear weapons but because you are murdering innocents.
Just another argument about the ends and the means.
Yeah it's really not that explicit. I mean, they only use the word evil four times. That could mean anything.Our disagreement has always been over "does the use of Evil power make the act Evil?" with you stating that the use of Evil makes the act Evil while I state the alignment of the act determines if it is Evil.
Much like bombing the city is not evil because you are using nuclear weapons but because you are murdering innocents.
Just another argument about the ends and the means.
But you do that by making two acts into to one act.
Casting an [Evil] spell is evil. (It's right there in the description.) Doing something good with the spell is a separate act."I cast Infernal Healing to heal my friend."
I cast Infernal Healing-evil Heal my friend-good
"I cast Animate Dead and rebuild the orphanage."
I cast Animate Dead-evil. Rebuild the orphanage-good
"I stole some bread to feed my starving children."
I stole some bread-evil. Feed my starving children-good
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My alignment is now Evil for casting it.
I don't think anyone here has advocated that casting the spell changes your alignment right then and there... Even a paladin that willfully commits an evil act and falls does not necessarily change his alignment to evil; it just means that he has lost his abilities as a paladin...
Speaking for myself, I have said (repeatedly) that in my games, casting a spell such as this only shifts your alignment slightly in the direction of evil, but does not change it.
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In my campaings, casting a [alignment] spell open your heart to planar energies of that alignment. You can do any action you want, but if you cast too much you lose control over your character aligment.I am LG. I cast Infernal healing on an orphan out of nothing but the kindness of my heart. My alignment is now Evil for casting it. It turns back to good for helping an orphan out of pure altruism. I continue to help people because action -> Alignment. My alignment is still Good.
You're just as good as someone who skims money from the till where they work and donates that money to charity.
Casting an [Evil] spell is evil. (It's right there in the description.)
No.
It says that the spell is [Evil] because it draws on an evil power or summons something from an evil plane or with an evil descriptor. It specifically does not say casting it is an evil action.
A neutral guy wielding a holy sword is using a [Good] item that draws on the power of good. He is not intending good or in fact doing good just by wielding the weapon. The weapon has bonuses against evil but using it is not more virtuous than using a shocking burst sword.
My opinion....
If you are in the habit of mostly doing good acts and minor acts of evil but doing it to further good.. Such as spells with evil descriptor. Your still Good.
If you were to do the same thing but switching good for evil and vice versa. Then your Evil.
If your in the habit of doing mostly good stuff, but on occasions commit moderate to major acts of evil ( Stealing from good peoples who are dependent on that which you steal to committing Murder), then your neutral. Same thing if you switch good with evil and vice versa.
If you do things with out a care of what you do. That thefe is no consistancy of good or evil acts then your Neutral.
A paladin must be held to higher standards for that is their calling.
Their actions must never be associated with evil. Even when they have to work with someone evil, the evil person has to agree to do no evil or else suffer the Paladin's retribution. If for some chance that a minor evil is commited. They must seek an atonement spell. If it is not reasonable to seek an atonement immediately then the Paladin must do so as soon as it is possible. However during that time the Paladin is on "probation" the next such occurence and the Paladin falls and looses his powers.
There are certain cases one has to think about for a moment. If a Paladin's powers come from a good deity or the embodiment of good itself, Then a casting of protection from Good should possibly cut him off from his Paladin powers and abilities at least as long as the spell lasts.