Got another hard question for you all.
Lets say I am a dwarf using a dwarven urgrosh, during a full attack can I switch from using it as a one handed weapon to a two handed and vice versa??
Examples Below:
1.Using double weapon as one handed (see attached rule at bottom) and switch to two handed during full attack
BAB 6
Total Attacks 2
First Attack: 1.0 str
Second Attack: 1.5 str
If yes, continue to expanded example.
2.Using an Urgrosh in main hand and light weapon in off hand attacking with TWF, realize the negative is making me miss to hard, switch to 2h.
BAB 6
TWF Feat/Off Hand Light
Total Attacks 3
First Attack: +4 (+6BAB -2TWF)
Second Attack: +6 (Dropped off hand free action, change to 2h free action)
Third Attack: N/A no TWF
So in essence I could 2h attack 2hattack and then off hand attack with a BAB6?
No, you could not. Attacking with two hands and attacking with an off hand are mutually exclusive.
Rules please, I need rule quotes. Where does it state you cant switch.
I only see it stated you can't go 1h to double weapon:
"A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round."
But the problem here is that the off-hand IS available to make attacks because its the same weapon lol.. your not switching.
Im not going to argue logic, because this is about raw. The raw quote you just stated is making the argument that you would be switching weapons.. what happens if you dont need to switch, if the weapon itself is both 2h and off handed.
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But the problem here is that the off-hand IS available to make attacks because its the same weapon lol.. your not switching.
Im not going to argue logic, because this is about raw. The raw quote you just stated is making the argument that you would be switching weapons.. what happens if you dont need to switch, if the weapon itself is both 2h and off handed.
The weapon is a one handed weapon and a light weapon.
You can 2-hand with it as you can with most any 1-handed weapons like a long sword, warhammer or a battle axe.
Avoron has quoted the correct FAQ ruling which says you cannot do as you wish.
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Double weapons (made for your size) are two handed weapons, and you use all the rules for using two handed weapons.
However, the Double quality gives you an extra option when making a full attack. You may continue to use it as a two handed weapon, OR you can use the double quality to use this weapon AS IF you were using a one handed weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your off hand. When you do, you use all the rules for TWFing with a one handed and a light weapon, for the entire duration of that full attack.
So, in any single full attack, you must choose one way OR the other. You can't mix and match.
This is a function of the Double quality, and that Armour Spikes FAQ has nothing to do with it.
Also, if the double weapon you are using is small enough that it counts as a one handed weapon for you (remember: double weapons for your size are all two handed weapons) then you cannot use the Double quality, and it remains a one handed weapon for you, although you can choose which end to use in any given round.
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Let me break it down for you.
Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaves, and two-bladed swords are double weapons.
These are all two handed weapons for the size of creature for which they are intended. They follow all of the normal rules foe weapon size and two handed weapons.
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The Double quality allows you to use these weapons AS IF they were one one handed weapon in your main hand, and one light weapon in your off hand. In normal TWF, you have to announce that you are using the TWF rules for this full attack, and this choice is made before the first attack is made.
Double weapons are not really two weapons! They can act as if they were, if you choose to TWF for this full attack. If you choose this option, then for the entire full attack it is not treated as a two handed weapon at all! It is treated as if you had a one handed weapon in your main hand and a light weapon in your off hand, and this remains true throughout this full attack! you cannot switch to using it as a two handed weapon until that full attack is finished.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two-handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can't use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
If you are using a double weapon that is too small for you, then you can use it in one hand but you cannot use the Double quality.
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What you are looking at is, in an example I am thinking about using in a game I am in.
Barbarian Titan Mauler/ Alchemist with Vestigal Arm, using Dorn Dergar.
1 D-D is wielded 2-handed, another is held using Jotungrip.
With a high enough BAB I can attack with both using a full attack.
While I am convinced it is legal it still seems off.
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It's totally legal, as long as all of your attacks come from your base attack bonus and not from two-weapon fighting. In fact, if you had another vestigial arm you wouldn't need the Jotungrip, and if you used them both one handed you wouldn't need the vestigial arm.
I have 2 vestigal arms
More damage via 2handed, one goes 1handed and he is still able to retrieve mutagens, extracts, wands, potions, etc and use them.
plus one set in reach formation (2handed) for AoO usage and the other for adjacent enemy usage.
When I get buffed I will have both 2 handed dealing ~37 a hit at 5th level. By 8th it will be ~45.
I am not sure how much more optimized I can make it...but am rtying to squeeze as much out as I can.
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First of all, using smaller weapons has absolutely nothing to do with this.
If you decide at the beginning of your turn to use two-weapon fighting, no matter what weapons you are using, it does exactly two things.
1. You take a penalty on your attacks and your off hand attacks as appropriate.
2. You have the option of attacking with an off hand, getting an extra attack.That's all. And both of those remain true throughout the entire full attack.
There is absolutely no rule restricting what your primary hand weapon can be during two-weapon fighting, or how many hands you can wield it in. If you can find one for me, I would appreciate it.Like I said, the only other restriction comes from the FAQ, which tells us that attacking with a two-handed weapon uses up one's off hand.
Just because you decide to take the penalties and have the option for an off hand attack doesn't mean you can only attack with certain types of weapons with your primary hand attacks.
** spoiler omitted **
Everything in your example is correct. So why are we in disagreement? I'll tell you.
Two weapon fighting is what it is. Two weapon fighting with a double weapon has a restriction that 'normal' TWFing does not:-
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
During this full attack, you are treated as having a light weapon in one hand and a one handed weapon in the other, and this is true for that entire full attack.
During 'normal' TWF you are at liberty to drop your light weapon and grip your one handed weapon in both hands; no argument there. But the Double quality does not mean that you actually are using two weapons! The Double quality allows you to TWF as if you were holding one weapon in each hand, and this means that your off hand is treated as holding a light weapon...throughout that full attack! Therefore, it is not allowed to 'let go' of this imaginary weapon and is not free to grip anything else, including the imaginary one handed weapon.
Harsh, but fair.
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Malachi, all the rules say is that you incur penalties to your attack rolls as though you were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon, not that you treat your hands as if they were actually holding the weapons.
** spoiler omitted **
A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
One of the 'penalties' of holding a weapon is that this hand is not free to also hold a different weapon. as quoted, you fight as if fighting with a one handed weapon in one hand and a light weapon in the other. For that full attack, you fight as if you have a weapon in each hand. Both hands are occupied for the duration of that full attack.
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Seriously?
It's pretty clear that "all normal attack penalties" means "all normal penalties to attack rolls."
If you actually need a quote for that, it can be found on page 12 of the core rulebook:
"Penalties are numerical values that are subtracted from a check or statistical score."
I don't deny that you take penalties as if fighting with two weapons.
But it is also part of the Double quality that you 'can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons'.
Both things are true. Both things are part of the rules for using double weapons.
You can't point to one half of the rule, pretend the other half doesn't exist, and then complain that there are no rules saying what the ignored rule actually says!
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Then, education.
Vestigial Arms do not work as the above posters believe they do.
With out wading through a pile of junk to get to the meat, link me the pertinent details on how they work.
And don't be a poorsport...If you read my post you see that it reads like it is legal but it seems like something is wrong with it. So don't think I am trying to twist a reading that favours me.
Show me how it works with out attitude.
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Then, education.
Vestigial Arms do not work as the above posters believe they do.
With out wading through a pile of junk to get to the meat, link me the pertinent details on how they work.
And don't be a poorsport...If you read my post you see that it reads like it is legal but it seems like something is wrong with it. So don't think I am trying to twist a reading that favours me.
Show me how it works with out attitude.
That's easy. You have a number of "hands" equal to your hands. "Hands" is short for "hands of effort". During a full attack you can only use manufactured weapons that use a number of hands equal to your "hands". Vestigial arm adds hands but explicitly does not add "hands". That's what "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round" means.
If you are a normal humanoid (two hands) and attack with a two-handed weapon you can't use two-weapon fighting (because you've already used up two "hands"). A two armed alchemist who grows two more arms with Vestigial Arm still only has two "hands" and therefore can only attack with one two-handed or two one-handed/light weapons. Iteratives can be subbed as normal but you can never exceed your "hands" limit.
Awesome. Thanks. Is there a link to something official that also explains that.
I have tried to find all these 1000 post threads but cannot. So my ability to track this info down seems to be faulty.
The Taiaha is the only One-handed Double Weapon.
Cool, I hadn't noticed that before.
That's easy. You have a number of "hands" equal to your hands. "Hands" is short for "hands of effort". During a full attack you can only use manufactured weapons that use a number of hands equal to your "hands". Vestigial arm adds hands but explicitly does not add "hands". That's what "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round" means.
If you are a normal humanoid (two hands) and attack with a two-handed weapon you can't use two-weapon fighting (because you've already used up two "hands"). A two armed alchemist who grows two more arms with Vestigial Arm still only has two "hands" and therefore can only attack with one two-handed or two one-handed/light weapons. Iteratives can be subbed as normal but you can never exceed your "hands" limit.
I think this is wrong. The reason I think this is wrong is because he is not two weapon fighting.
Consider the following situation:
A fighter with a +6 BaB attacks with a greatsword for his first attack. Then, for his +1 BaB attack, he drops his greatsword and quickdraws an earthbreaker.
As far as I can tell, this is completely legal and the TWF FAQ doesn't apply to it.
And as far as I can tell, it is no different from using vestigial arm to do the same thing without the quickdraw.
Ah, Avoron made a comment about it not being TWF and I assumed he was talking about the same thing.
Yeah, the TWF is definitely a no-go.
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Sure, there's a specific rule that allows you to substitute weapons into your iterative attacks. I left it out because it's messy (can you reuse a weapon for both second attacks on each side?) and I have no easy way to explain it with "hands" and hands except that you can't exceed your "hands" total while two-weapon fighting.
You'll notice my post included "you can't use two-weapon fighting" as a specific caveat and even "Iteratives can be subbed as normal but you can never exceed your "hands" limit."
As for the person I'm referring to,
That sure looks like two-weapon fighting with two handed weapons if he's getting two attacks at level 5. If it's haste there's no reason you even need the second earthbreaker, so I guessed two-weapon fighting.I have 2 vestigal arms
More damage via 2handed, one goes 1handed and he is still able to retrieve mutagens, extracts, wands, potions, etc and use them.
plus one set in reach formation (2handed) for AoO usage and the other for adjacent enemy usage.
When I get buffed I will have both 2 handed dealing ~37 a hit at 5th level. By 8th it will be ~45.
I am not sure how much more optimized I can make it...but am rtying to squeeze as much out as I can.
Poor editing on my part. It was why I talk about "per hit", and I try to clarify the damage according to both weapons since normally the damage on the off-hand is lesser due to the reduction of Str bonus.
With the way I am setting up I will have my 4 arms loaded with 2 Dorn Dergar. I get only 1 attack on my turn as per normal rules in combat via BAB, but since 1 Dorn Dergar will be in reach mode and the other will be in adjacent mode I anticipate getting some AoO in also.
By 8th level my expected damage per hit will definitely increase and I will start to get my iterative attacks (6/1).
Now, at that point do I get to use my 2 Dorn Dergar? One per attack in my iterative attack cycle? Or am I limited by my "hands"?
To clarify, I am NOT 2WF, I am ONLY 2HF.
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It started with this FAQ, continued in this thread, and reached the current terminology in this thread.
All those talk about off hand and 2 weapon fighting.
I am only wielding 2 two handed weapons. Not fighting 2 weapon style.
My group can be pretty chill, but we strive for correctness.
BtW, thx for the leg work for me on this Bob. I don't think any of this applies in my situation, but tracking it down for me is appreciated.
To clarify, I am NOT 2WF, I am ONLY 2HF.
That will probably explain it better.
FAQFirst part says about not using TWF.
Okay, if I read you right, OilHorse, you've got a two-handed weapon in (left hand and one vestigial) and a different two-handed weapon in (right hand and second vestigial), and you're asking if you can (not using two-weapon fighting) use both weapons with iteratives for two-handed damage.
Hmmm...
I'd allow it. I think.
I can see an issue wherein it breaks a design rule about 1-1/2 damage on multiple weapons at once, but all you've done is burn class abilities to avoid needing the Quickdraw feat and don't have to drop a weapon.
It's pretty much just the "mace and longsword, iteratives only" example that Sean K Reynolds used to explain not two-weapon fighting with two weapons, just with both weapons getting 1-1/2 Str damage. For which you've spent class abilities.
Yeah, I can't see that being a problem.
Personally, and going beyond rule-text, I just can't picture how a vestigial arm can physically take part in wielding a two handed weapon. Well, I guess I can see a right natural arm and a left vestigial could, but I can't see two right arms wielding the same weapon, and I can't see how there's be enough maneuverability to wield 2 2-handed weapons. Seems like arms would get crossed up all over the place. It seems more appropriate for multi-armed creatures to be wielding one-handed weapons, where they can swing individually, and free of others.
Two handed weapons aren't so just because of their size/weight, the two hands are needed for the leverage required for the proper wielding of the weapons. Two right hands can't leverage the same way a left and a right can.
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If at no point you use two-weapon fighting to get an extra attack then yes, you can attack with one two-handed weapon and then make an iterative attack with a different one. I did try to make that clear but again, the language to be precise is complicated. The length of that FAQ should attest to that. The reason it doesn't matter is because you can just attack with the one weapon twice with way less investment. Enchanting one is cheaper than enchanting two.
Well the large difference is that I will have 1 reach weapon and 1 non-reach weapon available at all times. So I will threaten ALL squares within 10 feet of me normally, or 20 feet when enlarged.
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If at no point you use two-weapon fighting to get an extra attack then yes, you can attack with one two-handed weapon and then make an iterative attack with a different one. I did try to make that clear but again, the language to be precise is complicated. The length of that FAQ should attest to that. The reason it doesn't matter is because you can just attack with the one weapon twice with way less investment. Enchanting one is cheaper than enchanting two.Well the large difference is that I will have 1 reach weapon and 1 non-reach weapon available at all times. So I will threaten ALL squares within 10 feet of me normally, or 20 feet when enlarged.
Not a difference.
No extra attack? No two-weapon weapon fighting penalties, or restrictions.
No matter what.
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If at no point you use two-weapon fighting to get an extra attack then yes, you can attack with one two-handed weapon and then make an iterative attack with a different one. I did try to make that clear but again, the language to be precise is complicated. The length of that FAQ should attest to that. The reason it doesn't matter is because you can just attack with the one weapon twice with way less investment. Enchanting one is cheaper than enchanting two.Well the large difference is that I will have 1 reach weapon and 1 non-reach weapon available at all times. So I will threaten ALL squares within 10 feet of me normally, or 20 feet when enlarged.Not a difference.
No extra attack? No two-weapon weapon fighting penalties, or restrictions.
No matter what.
Lol
Okay, okay
Like i had said before. My group is fairly chill bit we try to be correct first.
So this situation had my spidey sense tingling and i wanted to confirm hiw this would work.
The PC does not have the Dex to twf anyway.